Missing, Presumed Dead in Bali

Hi Chris,

You haven't seen your brother for a long time a go
the location is also vague.
Police in Indonesia are very easy to find missing people as long as the identity requirements must be complete.

Residential address, or at least the name of a friend in Bali
if it's just guessing it's impossible to help...

cheers

Zanzio

It could well be worth your while to contact Myanmar, Laos and Thailand(the golden triangle) as the dates you give and earlier was most certainly a more popular destination for that sort of scene 1990s/ early 2000s ) than Bali ever was
Thailand etc is unfortunately infamous for western people going missing especially within the drug scene and back then was extremely easy to overstay for years with very little punishment (unlike now)and it's famous for its complex cave systems (like many SE Asian country's)
Records of people moving are unfortunately not kept for long
Possibly tourist police could offer help these are all English speaking and may offer assistance
For British Embassay they is Bangkok and Chiangmai
Good luck

Hi Zanzio,
Thank you for your reply, I realise that this is an extremely long shot, but it seems like the only option left open to us in the hope that someone who knew him may subscribe.
Chris

Hi Gwmeath,
Thanks for the detailed reply, we never really thought about going outside the Bali box, it could be a good shout. Will probably post the same message on Thailand expats etc. and see if anything comes of it.
Once again, thanks for your time
Chris

2002 is ancient history as far as computerised records go in Indonesia but it might be worth contacting immigration on the off chance they have records.
It's highly unlikely local government here will have anything but foreigners are supposed to register locally as well.
However, if he was living off grid and considering how corrupt things were back then, it's a very long shot.

Try the UK Consular Agent in Bali

Consulate of GREAT BRITAIN
Vice-Consul Mr. John MAKIN

E-mail : [email protected]
Address : Jl Tirta Nadi 2 No 20 Sanur
Phone No : +62 21 23565200 (ext.8209)
Emergency No : 08118860053
Website : www.gov.uk/government/world/organisatio … ulate-bali

Good luck.

Ubudian wrote:

Try the UK Consular Agent in Bali.

There goes a good idea. A UK national's death may have been reported to them or the embassy in Jakarta

Sorry to hear of your loss.
I live in Bali. I don't like to tell you this, but I wouldn't hold out any hope of records in Bali.
They don't have a national birth, death or marriage register and any scant records are held only in the village that you belong to.  As an expat, the locals are not interested in you.
If your brother was involved in drugs, he may have found himself in trouble with the gangs here that run the drugs. They are not forgiving.
I have seen posters at the Denpasar police stations offering a cash reward to find white person.
Money talks here and this is the only incentive that would give you information.
If you can supply a photo of your brother I can ask contacts that I have here.
But 17 years is a long time in Bali and it is not the same law enforced country that you know at home.

Sorry Bali Tiger, but I totally disagree with you. 

Immigration has exhaustive files on all expats of all nationalities.  These files include photographs, fingerprints and all pertinent data including marriage, children...you name it.  Have you ever seen your immigration file?  If you haven't you might be very surprised to find the comprehensive details contained in those files since the start of your expatriate life on Bali.

In fact, it's kind of a joke among many long time expats here just how many records of our fingerprints can be found in these files...the joke being...one's fingerprints don't change.   

I also take very strong exception to this comment:  "As an expat, the locals are not interested in you."

If that is the case with you, the blame for that lies on your shoulders for obviously not taking any interest in them. 

Sorry to be blunt, but I can't just sit by and let comments which are not reflective of the truth stand without rebuttal.

The records could be a problem if the gentleman was living illegally and did a runner by boat or, as corruption was the norm many years ago, paid someone to look the other way when it came to stamps in  passports.
However, as Ubudian says, immigration have always kept detailed files on foreigners so it's possible, even after so many years, a dusty folder is hanging around in a storage facility somewhere.
The only way to find out is ask around, firstly by phone and email, then perhaps a trip to Bali if you look like you're getting somewhere.

Only one way to find out.

Records do not go back 17 years. Yes they take finger prints etc but that is only a recent event because of the government's determination to crack down on terrorism.
As for " the locals don't care", you have no idea of my situation. This comment is true, they don't care about your residency etc as long as you are doing the right thing in their community.
I have lived here for 6 years. I look after many families. I have just given one worker 8 million to get a divorce from his unstable wife.  I live in a small community and they like me and I like them. I just overpaid my pool cleaner 500,000 and told him to keep it for his daughter's school fees.
What I said about finding a person lost for 17 years is correct. Do not presume you know about me.
I have been fighting in the courts for 3 years over a brand new car a girl stole from me. It has cost me 600 million so far for a 170 million car. I know the police stations here like the back of my hand so if I say records don't go back 17 years, I know.

I can comment on my records, and I know they go back 12 years (Absolute fact as I've seen them).
I know of others still here that have records from a lot longer

As for old records on people no longer in this country, I can't comment, but to say they definitely don't exist is a bit of a leap. They could well be in a back room somewhere and difficult to find, but it's unlikely they were destroyed.
The biggest problem is with the described lifestyle and the likelihood he lived off the grid.

@ Bali Tiger...

"Records do not go back 17 years. Yes they take finger prints etc but that is only a recent event because of the government's determination to crack down on terrorism."

Baloney. 

Fingerprints, and everything else I noted in my prior posts has been part and parcel of Balinese immigration for all the 21+ years I've lived here 24/7. 

Not to pull rank, but my wife's uncle was the number two guy in the head office of imigrasi Bali (Denpasar)  for 6 years in the early years of this new century...2000 to 2006.  How the hell else might you figure my ability to see my file?

"I have been fighting in the courts for 3 years over a brand new car a girl stole from me. It has cost me 600 million so far for a 170 million car."

Do you seriously expect a comment showing empathy over that comment?

I'm very sorry, but I wasn't raised to suffer fools gladly.

Expats ebb and flow like the tide on Bali.  Your prior comments illustrate why that is.

International law is records are kept for between 5-7 years (min/max) after a person leaving any country on a full time visa (kitas marriage etc)  this is due to the sensitive nature when applying for such visas ie bank accounts income etc one reason they would keep longer is criminal records etc otherwise they don't
Visiting people on tourist visa etc are held for up to 72 hours or until the international database shows that person disembarking to an alternative country
If he was just a tourist it's highly unlikely any record is alive/ active for several reasons lack of biometric passports or facilities to use these included are fingerprint technology back then
Since 2013 I've spent 90% of my time here and registered my marriage in 2017 no records other than KITAS are held on me including my marriage
I know this as I was red flagged for dependants/ tax reasons (tax dictates marriage status and children)  on my KITAS renewal last year and they asked for my 3 passports to show proof (they only had the two passports with KITAS issued not my tourist 3 rd passport

What “international law” are you quoting?

And in the case of a person who has NEVER been documented as “leaving” Indonesia, what point are you struggling to make?

Please try to make your comments specific, and appropriate to this particular case. 

It's painfully clear that you haven't been paying attention.

This thread is about a person missing and presumed dead on the Province of Bali…and NOT in Batam…which has very little, if any, similarity to the Province of Bali.  Moreover, as a corporate sponsored expat (IMTA), you are even further removed from the realities of immigration laws when it comes to non corporate business sponsored expatriates.

Sorry, but this is my nice way of saying that you haven't a clue what you are talking about. 

"Since 2013 I've spent 90% of my time here and registered my marriage in 2017 no records other than KITAS are held on me including my marriage."

And THREE passports? 

Oh yeah, that's clever. 

Personally, I hope immigration catches up with the little game you are playing.   

Ubudian, you are showing yourself to be a right ****. Why don't you pull your head in and stop inciting anger amongst Expats.
This site is for us to help and support each other but all we are getting from you is how great you are. Like we care.
This poor sister has asked for help and all you are doing is being obnoxious to those with a view different to yours. Why don't you go back to contemplating your navel under the Ubud yumyum trees and let people offer help to Chris Lane with their own experiences.
As to my stolen car, I certainly don't need any sympathy from the likes of you. I get enough support from true expats with true concern, not a bag of air like you.

Thank you! 

And ROFLOL. 

After just four posts here you have proven yourself beyond any measure that I could EVER hope to bring to the table.

Lady…it's not my words that matter here…rather, they are yours. 

Let's agree not to communicate Ubudian. I guessed that you were American. Lack of diplomacy.
So if your wife's uncle was top of immigration, is this how you got to stay here? I didnt like your threat to Gwmeath.
After 3000 posts maybe YOU should consider retirement and let new members have a say without being abused by the likes of you.
There is a new order in Bali and you are redundant.
And for the record, I have been coming to Bali since 1978 so don't call me a flyby expat.
Hoping we never meet.

A "new order" in Bali? 

ROFLMAO.

You don't like my direct approach.  Fine.  I get that.

And I have nothing but utter disdain for "would be expats" who haven't a clue about what it means to be an expat...specifically, a total lack of appreciation or understanding that we are guests in THEIR country.  The operative word here is RESPECT.  So, when you write, "as an expat, the locals are not interested in you" that rattles my cage...a lot.  I will NOT let you get away with a lie...and if it's the truth for you, then as wrote earlier...that is your fault.       

Your prior comments clearly show to me (by way of ignorance and a lack of understanding of local Balinese) exactly where you stand. 

And no...you are not a "flyby" expat.  Hell, you're not an expat at all. 

And btw...you have not offered ONE rebuttal to what I said about what is contained in immigration files...files that have been kept for all the 21+ years I've been living here.

You can carry on with all the BS you want...but I will not cease calling you out.

Ubudian wrote:

What “international law” are you quoting?

And in the case of a person who has NEVER been documented as “leaving” Indonesia, what point are you struggling to make?

Please try to make your comments specific, and appropriate to this particular case. 

It's painfully clear that you haven't been paying attention.

This thread is about a person missing and presumed dead on the Province of Bali…and NOT in Batam…which has very little, if any, similarity to the Province of Bali.  Moreover, as a corporate sponsored expat (IMTA), you are even further removed from the realities of immigration laws when it comes to non corporate business sponsored expatriates.

Sorry, but this is my nice way of saying that you haven't a clue what you are talking about. 

"Since 2013 I've spent 90% of my time here and registered my marriage in 2017 no records other than KITAS are held on me including my marriage."

And THREE passports? 

Oh yeah, that's clever. 

Personally, I hope immigration catches up
with the little game you are playing.   

I would suggest to use an Indonesian government website and to follow it up I would suggest international laws as agreed by said countries and take your head out of certain backsides and actually read my post and do a little research rather than be lazy and ask for answerc😂😂

There is no international law "as agreed by said countries" regarding the keeping, storage or access to immigration records.  Why would there be, since immigration matters and laws are sovereign to each nation? 

In the United States, the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) maintains immigration records back to the year 1800.  Indonesian immigration law does not stipulate a time period for which records are kept. 

When you want to talk about keeping your head out of certain backsides, you might think about your own butt, first, buddy. 

In case you haven't noticed, I do not suffer fools gladly.

You should maybe read up on (examples only) G20 regs and laws to include NATO just to name 2 (amongst other organisations) of which Indonesia is connected to, to even think they is no such agreement/ international law exposes certain people (amongst yourself) lack of knowledge in certain topics, if you can show me one sentence to otherwise contradict my post I will provide you and this forum with all the information you require otherwise SHUSShhhh
👍👍😂😂
I await your reply

***

I have no clue as to what international law says about visa records but the OP said he was living on the island, not a tourist.
The OP also said he was into drug abuse, something that might also have made him show up on someone's radar.
I'm only guessing as I don't know, but I would expect a resident's records to be kept longer than would be considered normal for a tourist.

One note - Perhaps I could request members avoid personal insults, please.

@Gwmeath

Indonesia is obviously not a NATO member country.  Indonesia is a G-20 member, but as the G-20 is a forum and not a legislative body, its agreements and decisions have no legal impact. 

The United States, on the other hand, is a member of both NATO and the G-20, and as previously mentioned, keeps its immigration records back to the year 1800.  Neither organization (the G-20 or NATO) has anything to do with how long a sovereign nation retains its immigration records. 

@BaliTiger

I would appear that my prior comments have struck a chord with you.  Good. 

And yes, I suppose that your spending 600 million IDR in pursuit of a stolen car that cost you 170 million IDR would earn you a great deal of “respect.”  Your own words…

“I have been fighting in the courts for 3 years over a brand new car a girl stole from me. It has cost me 600 million so far for a 170 million car." 

The great American patriot/statesman, Ben Franklin had a good saying for that.  It goes like this…“penny wise, pound foolish.”  Any expat who foolishly chooses to hemorrhage money will definitely earn “respect” here in Bali.  But, it isn't respect. Moreover, such foolish flaunting of money only helps to keep the myth alive…that expats are walking bank accounts.   

As for fingerprinting expats living on Bali, what I said earlier is 100% accurate.  Unless Chris Lane's brother was living totally “under the radar” and in noncompliance with immigration laws in effect 17 years ago…he was fingerprinted…plain and simple and without any question.  Back 17 years ago, there was no 30 day VOA extendable to 60 days, so your comments about fingerprinting IN YOUR CASE is a deflection from the issue.  Your prior comment, “yes they take finger prints etc but that is only a recent event because of the government's determination to crack down on terrorism” is totally bogus.  Any expat...and I mean ANY expat who has been living on Bali 17 years ago has been fingerprinted multiple times.

Your own profile makes it clear why you haven't been fingerprinted before…

“I am semi retired, living about 8 months a years in Bali. In this time away I travel to other destinations…” 

Oh, and as far as your ex goes, say hi to him next time you are talking with him.  While it's a long stretch, it's possible that I ran into him during the late 60's, early 70's. 

Semper Fi.

Ubudian.
How I chose to spend my well earnt money is up to me.
If I chose to spend mega bucks for justice, and the return, of a stolen car, then that is my business.
It doesn't advertise that Westerners have cash-to-splash, but means we take the law seriously. Do you think i would let someone steal my car and say "thats ok". Would you? And if you haven't clicked yet, stealing a car is a criminal offence and means jail. But as you know everything about Bali, i am sure you know that a thief gets put in jail and can pay their way out. That is when i get compensation for my car plus for the villa she stole from an Italian girl.
(In fact, because I have told this forum that my car was stolen, you have a duty to report this crime to the police).
So you keep checking your navel and I will get on with I think is justice in Bali.
If you see the King of Bali, say hello from me, as I am sure you must know him too.
As for my husband, you would never have met, as unlike US soldiers who went home each night to dinner, beer and a bed, Australian soldiers spent up to 1 month out in the jungle, 24 hours a day, looking to shoot or be shot. That was his contribution as a conscript.
Let's help Chris Lane with leads and offers of help and not hear from you again.
I am in fact going to the police right now and I will be asking questions on behalf of her brother.

My comment that they take fingerprints only now in an effort to thwart terrorism is correct, not bogus.
Immigration have only started this from early this year for tourists entering on a 30 day visa. Like you now have to register your phone number and data chips are mostly local.
Ubudian, you seem definite that Chris's brother was a bona fide expat. Yes, then he might have fingerprints and a file.
But my understanding is that maybe he came on a tourist visa, overstayed and disappeared. No finger prints or file for this type of person. Do you think that they do this for 3 million visitors a year, let alone 17 years ago.
So you see, 2 different executions of visas. Tourist and KITAS.

“Ubudian, you seem definite that Chris's brother was a bona fide expat. Yes, then he might have fingerprints and a file.”

No, that's the way Chris Lane described his or her brother:

“He was last seen in the UK about 17 years ago and he was living in Bali where he returned after his visit.”

With a sosbud visa, fingerprinting was SOP back then when applying for 30 day extensions to the initial 60 day visit visa.  A sosbud visa is not a residency visa (KITAS) but back 17 years ago, many expats living in Bali used this approach in lieu of a KITAS.  This is fact, and if this is the visa that Chris Lane's bother used, then the name and address of his local sponsor would be in his file.

For the record, I never once stated or implied that with a 30 day tourist visa (which was not extendable back then), he would have been fingerprinted back 17 years ago.

"He was living in Bali...." So you assume he had a long term visa. More likely a tourist who then went AWOL. So no finger prints, no file, just a tourist.
So for either assumption there are 2 scenarios re visas. So when I say there would be no file and no finger prints, then I am correct if he was a tourist.
As a legal long term, then you are right.
You see, 2 options, 2 scenarios. So no need to get your back up.
The word I got today is that if he has been missing for 17 years there are no records here. And if he wasn't dobbed in at some time for being illegal and found by the police, then he is not here

“More likely a tourist who then went AWOL.”

Nope.  You still haven't read Chris Lane's original post:

“He was last seen in the UK about 17 years ago and he was living in Bali where he returned after his visit.”

He was living in Bali, came back to the UK for a visit and then returned to Bali.  Even 17 years ago it would be near impossible to return to Bali after being over extended on his first visa to Bali where he is described as “living in Bali.” 

It's far more likely he was on a longer visa than a 30 day tourist visa if his brother or sister's account of his activities are accurate.   

“The word I got today is that if he has been missing for 17 years there are no records here.”  If he was on any visa other than a 30 day tourist visa, there will indeed be an immigration file on him.  No question about that.

Ubudian.
So maybe he visited Bali once, returned to the UK, then came back as a tourist and went AWOL. Wouldnt be the first.
Why are you assuming he got a long term visa? He was a druggie. Do you really think he went through the correct channels? 17 years ago Bali was a free for all for drugs. Have you read Snowing in Bali?

I have asked for info on Richard and if there is any I will get it.
The message will be for Chris, not you.
And my appointment with the police went well today and my criminal charge is progressing. Thanks for the support to put a thief in jail.

Ubudian wrote:

@Gwmeath

Indonesia is obviously not a NATO member country.  Indonesia is a G-20 member, but as the G-20 is a forum and not a legislative body, its agreements and decisions have no legal impact. 

The United States, on the other hand, is a member of both NATO and the G-20, and as previously mentioned, keeps its immigration records back to the year 1800.  Neither organization (the G-20 or NATO) has anything to do with how long a sovereign nation retains its immigration records. 

@BaliTiger

I would appear that my prior comments have struck a chord with you.  Good. 

And yes, I suppose that your spending 600 million IDR in pursuit of a stolen car that cost you 170 million IDR would earn you a great deal of “respect.”  Your own words…

“I have been fighting in the courts for 3 years over a brand new car a girl stole from me. It has cost me 600 million so far for a 170 million car." 

The great American patriot/statesman, Ben Franklin had a good saying for that.  It goes like this…“penny wise, pound foolish.”  Any expat who foolishly chooses to hemorrhage money will definitely earn “respect” here in Bali.  But, it isn't respect. Moreover, such foolish flaunting of money only helps to keep the myth alive…that expats are walking bank accounts.   

As for fingerprinting expats living on Bali, what I said earlier is 100% accurate.  Unless Chris Lane's brother was living totally “under the radar” and in noncompliance with immigration laws in effect 17 years ago…he was fingerprinted…plain and simple and without any question.  Back 17 years ago, there was no 30 day VOA extendable to 60 days, so your comments about fingerprinting IN YOUR CASE is a deflection from the issue.  Your prior comment, “yes they take finger prints etc but that is only a recent event because of the government's determination to crack down on terrorism” is totally bogus.  Any expat...and I mean ANY expat who has been living on Bali 17 years ago has been fingerprinted multiple times.

Your own profile makes it clear why you haven't been fingerprinted before…

“I am semi retired, living about 8 months a years in Bali. In this time away I travel to other destinations…” 

Oh, and as far as your ex goes, say hi to him next time you are talking with him.  While it's a long stretch, it's possible that I ran into him during the late 60's, early 70's. 

Semper Fi.

Like I said in my post I used the term “ example only “. But I'm still waiting for a reply to contradict my post

Sorry for not replying earlier.  This is high season for Bali's most important eremonies. 

@BaliTiger:

“Have you read Snowing in Bali?”

No, I tend to ignore sensational tabloid journalist style fiction. 

“And my appointment with the police went well today and my criminal charge is progressing.” 

Yes.  After already shelling out 600 million rupiah, I would certainly hope so.  You should tell your whole story.  It might be a useful chronicle of why it's always a bad idea to use a nominee to act as the purchaser.

@ Gwmeath:

“Like I said in my post I used the term “example only “. But I'm still waiting for a reply to contradict my post.”

Your “examples are meaningless, as I've already made clear.

“Strawman” arguments are just that…made of straw.

Have an in-depth read of United Nations regulations/ agreed “international” laws, That over 190 countries adhere too as well as domestic regulations / laws
That's right your read correctly “international Laws”
Have a nice

[Post under review]

Gwmeath wrote:

Have an in-depth read of United Nations regulations/ agreed “international” laws, That over 190 countries adhere too as well as domestic regulations / laws
That's right your read correctly “international Laws”
Have a nice

Perhaps you could link to those laws so the OP, if she ever returns, can access them for information, and do those laws apply to persons that might have broken immigration or other laws whilst on the Island? Also, the date they were enacted as the OP is talking some years ago.
I mention this as it was suggested the gentleman was using drugs, and that could have brought attention from the police, and he seems to have been living in a commune, again possibly breaking local laws and perhaps attracting attention from the authorities. There might very well be exceptions in the laws you mention for people that didn't just do their holiday thing and leave, or perhaps people with longer term visas.

However, the greatest likelihood is records, if there are any around, have been lost or destroyed over time, moving offices, clearouts, painting, or whatever.