VISAS Class Action Suit

RE:  Class Action Suit,

I feel for your situation, my friend, and maybe I am paranoid, but is it a good idea to sue the Brazilian government?  Trumped up "foreigner's law" violations have either put other foreigners in Brazilian jails or had them kicked out of the country.   Be careful!

Abs, Doulgas

wjwoodward wrote:

I am contemplating bringing on a Class Action Suit naming as co-respondents the Policia Federal, Ministério da Justiça, Conselho Nacional de Imigração for unacceptable delays in the issuing of VIPER Permanent Visas and the subsequent Cédula de Identidade Estrangeiro (CIE).  .....
Cheers,
William James Woodward, Expat-blog Experts Team

Hi James,
If there is no dirt on you, I say 'Go for It'! ... 

The only dirt on me my friend is that which comes from playing with my 6 year old son outside, or from laying on the beach!!!

The situation regarding visas and documentation here in Brazil gets worse every year. It is incredible to think that while law abiding citizens from other countries come here, try to obtain permanency through the proper legal channels, fight their way through the mountains of red-tape and suffocating bureaucracy end up waiting years to be processed while international criminals, corrupt politicians and terrorists, refugees get processed quickly at the expense of all those who are left to wait even longer.

I'm not against humanitarian gestures, but allowing refugees into Brazil quickly does not necessarily mean that the government should also give them preferential treatment in processing immigrations documents. They're here and they're safely out of harm's way; either put them in the same waiting list as everybody else which would be the fair thing to do; or sort out the whole sorry mess that immigrations is in and speed up the process for EVERYBODY. Those who've been waiting for documents for two years or more should not be forced to wait even longer while somebody comes here as a refugee or some criminal who is "connected" to powerful figures here gets bumped to the head of the line. There is no excuse for this whatsoever.

Alternatively, if they can't or won't produce the necessary documents promptly then they should be forced to change the laws to permit that the protocol that applicants receive when they solicit permanency should be acceptable identification for ANY situation that identification may be required for. Here if you don't have the physical document in hand you can't open a bank account, you can't arrange for electrical service or telephone service in some states, you can't do a host of other things that make up part of day-to-day living in any country. It's absurd!!!

Hi James,
Did you consult with a lawyer or two?

DouglasT wrote:

RE:  Class Action Suit,

I feel for your situation, my friend, and maybe I am paranoid, but is it a good idea to sue the Brazilian government?  Trumped up "foreigner's law" violations have either put other foreigners in Brazilian jails or had them kicked out of the country.   Be careful!

Abs, Doulgas

Hi Doug,
Foreigners kicked out of the country?
Well, (edit typo) if the foreigner is from a 3rd world country it will be indeed a drawback for him to return to his country.

This is not the case with James. If he gets kicked out of Brazil, he will return to a 1st world country: Canada.

It is a matter of you, expats in Brazil, to talk among yourselves what can and cannot be done.
Good luck. 

Not even the President of the Republic can kick me out of Brazil unless I commit a deportable crime, which I obviously have no intention of doing. The law clearly provides that anyone who has a Brazilian child cannot be expelled from the country unless he/she abandons the child.

wjwoodward wrote:

Not even the President of the Republic can kick me out of Brazil unless I commit a deportable crime, which I obviously have no intention of doing. The law clearly provides that anyone who has a Brazilian child cannot be expelled from the country unless he/she either abandons the child.

Ha, ha, this is what saved Ronnie Biggs from extradition to UK for his biggest train heist in history ... 

And even if laws change in tune with the social pressures of the time, you, James, have a good place to go to anyway. 

Unfortunately there is no such thing as a class action suit in Brazilian Law. The closest thing that comes to mind is the "Ação Civil Pública" in which the Ministerio Público is the active party.

In cases of long delays, the option would be for the interested party to start a "Mandado de Segurança" in which the judge order the govt to take action, in federal court.

Does that have to be done through the Ministério Publico in TRF or can a lawyer bring on an application?

Would it be more time efficient to simply apply for Permanência Definitiva Via Judicial and a Mandado de Segurança which would obligate them to produce a Cédula de Identidade Estrangeiro without any further delays. I've been waiting over 4 years now on one process and over 8 months on the other which is Permanency based on a Brazilian child.

I'm just about ready to send the Ministry an e-mail telling them to shove it, that I don't want nor do I need their damned permission to remain in Brazil since I have a Brazilian child and according to 6.815 I'm considered "inexplusável".

Cheers,
James

You can't apply through a judge, as an administrative process exists. Your petition would get thrown out of court.

Did you already get your home visit?

What you can achieve for certain in court is that they are made to decide in a limited time span.

You might be able to even force them to give you the card, since they basically don't have a choice. It's more complicated though and almost certain to be appealed. The good thing is that the last case at least would IMHO be the jurisdiction of the STJ in Brasilia. But that I'd have to check and I'm on a bus now.

The home visit took place in June, the Ministry of Justice received the process (2nd one) in July and to date it has not even been entered into their computer system.

The first process which was started in Dec. 2009 resulted in Permanência Provisória in May 2011, I immediately applied to transform Provisória into Permanent and it has since been in the hands of MoJ doing absolutely nothing, still "aguardando análise'...... despite numerous applications for Prioridade Processual as guaranteed by Decreto/Lei 12.008/2009.

MoJ won't even return my e-mails.

What happens if I tell these jerks to blow it out their ear and that I don't want a visa anymore, that I fully intend to stay in this country with or without their permission now? I have a Brazilian child, in my custody and financially dependent on me.

wjwoodward wrote:

.... What happens if I tell these jerks to blow it out their ear and that I don't want a visa anymore, that I fully intend to stay in this country with or without their permission now? I have a Brazilian child, in my custody and financially dependent on me.

Hi James,
Can you stay and work there?
Feel free to PM me.

I'm self employed and also receive a pension from Canada, money is no problem. According to the law as I understand it, I can remain in this country, with or without documentation since I have a Brazilian child. I really don't give a damn whether I get a visa or not anymore to be honest. I only applied for one just to do things the proper (legal) way. That just hasn't seemed to mean much to the people involved in immigrations. To be absolutely honest, after everything I've gone through in the last 4+ years there's nothing I'd love more than to tell them to stick their visa where the sun don't shine and stay here without one just to rub their noses in it!!!

wjwoodward wrote:

....  I'd love more than to tell them to stick their visa where the sun don't shine and stay here without one just to rub their noses in it!!!

Hi James,
Thank you for clarification.
I believe you should form an association with other people in your situation and others with immigration issues and protest legally.  A web site is a must in this situation.

To confess: I was supposed to give two 1-day seminars in Sao and Rio in mid April this year.  When I read about their formalities I decided is not for me.
I do not encourage abuse and refuse to comply with abusive procedures and those who apply them.

James, you must not lose the momentum on this one, because you have nothing to lose anyway.

John C. wrote:

wjwoodward wrote:

....  I'd love more than to tell them to stick their visa where the sun don't shine and stay here without one just to rub their noses in it!!!

Hi James,
Thank you for clarification.
I believe you should form an association with other people in your situation and others with immigration issues and protest legally.  A web site is a must in this situation.

To confess: I was supposed to give two 1-day seminars in Sao and Rio in mid April this year.  When I read about their formalities I decided is not for me.
I do not encourage abuse and refuse to comply with abusive procedures and those who apply them.

James, you must not lose the momentum on this one, because you have nothing to lose anyway.

I truly believe it is easier to live and work in Brazil illegally than it is legally. Everything I read and hear leads me to this conclusion.

usmc_mv wrote:

I truly believe it is easier to live and work in Brazil illegally than it is legally. Everything I read and hear leads me to this conclusion.

It really is. I guess that is why so many people do it. What can be expected from a country where everything that's wrong, everything that's corrupt, everything that is illegal comes from the very top of the totem pole.

I just wanted to do things the right way, I don't give a damn anymore and they can go screw themselves now.

It sounds like living in Brazil from another country isn't all that great when it comes to the government.I love Brazil but this is the one of the reason that  I have been looking at other countries too! It just seems like Brazil is getting more expensive,more crime and more problems for expats !!!!!!!! I am sure all countries have problems but it seems like Brazil is getting worse on a lot of things! I haven't ruled out Fortaleza as a place to retire but I am looking at many other places now.

If you can cope with the insane and suffocating bureaucracy, the apathy of the government to do anything that isn't directly related to the 2014 World Cup or the 2016 Olympic Games then you shouldn't have any real problems in Brazil.

Violence, if you just look at the news reports, really appears to be out of control; however if you look more closely you'll find that generally speaking the most violent crimes are those where the criminals and drug traffickers are settling scores with other criminals and drug traffickers. In Brazil if you don't hang out with or mess with the wrong people and you follow all the necessary precautions you should in any foreign country you'll be OK. (see safety tips in the thread "A Gringo's Survival Guide to Brazil)

Given that the country is in the run-up to a federal election maybe things might improve a little. At least we can hope so. I'm not so sure, however, that they won't just go back to the "same old same old" after the Olympics.

Cheers,
William James Woodward, Expat-blog Experts Team

Thanks.  I guess ever place has it's problems. I just have to find one that I like and can deal with. My City of Austin Texas is one if the popular places in America to move to. All the things I liked about it are changing way too fast. Like traffic, crime , pollution , rude people moving here, cost if living rising fast. It's just not the laid back place it use to be !! It great if you didn't know it 10 years ago or more. I ready for a change

wjwoodward wrote:

usmc_mv wrote:

I truly believe it is easier to live and work in Brazil illegally than it is legally. Everything I read and hear leads me to this conclusion.

It really is. I guess that is why so many people do it. What can be expected from a country where everything that's wrong, everything that's corrupt, everything that is illegal comes from the very top of the totem pole.

I just wanted to do things the right way, I don't give a damn anymore and they can go screw themselves now.

I agree here. Being from the States I thought being illegal was a serious crime and everyone would be on the look out for you. Apparently most countries don't care, and don't have a process for legal immigration anyways. I am happy to have been in Brazil because now I know I can go live anywhere in the world practically and just have to worry about keeping myself self-employed.

Hi rc206,

Without any intention to offend, I would like to make a very serious point and hope you take the advice to heart.

If you already have problems adapting to change then probably you should really re-think the idea of becoming an expat. If you can't handle the change in your own hometown then just try and imagine trying to adapt to the changing life in another country that's absolutely strange to you?

No place on earth is static, remains the same for long. Believe me the Brazil I live in today is nothing like the Brazil I came to over 12 years ago now.

Imagine moving to a strange new surrounding, a country where you have to re-learn almost everything and adapt as quickly as possible just to get by. Now imagine that strange new place is also changing at a rate where you find that you now must re-adapt to the same things on almost a weekly basis because as quickly as you learn something, adapt to something it changes and you now have to adapt to the new reality. If you think you have problems now (at home) just wait until you get somewhere else.

It's not just Brazil, this is happening everywhere in the world. I deal with people from all over the globe who want to move to Brazil. I hear complaints from many of them that are almost mirrors of your complaints. They come to Brazil, can't adapt here either and generally go back home very shortly thereafter, only to find that in the short time they were away the place they once considered home has changed so much that they are even worse off than they were before they started. They have even more difficulty at home now than if they had stayed there.

This sort of reminds me of the old song, "If I could hold time in a bottle". Pulling up roots and moving off to some new location, while it might sound exciting and adventurous, is not the cure for this inability to accept change and adapt. Like the old saying goes, "We can't change the world, the only thing we can do is to change the way we look at it and deal with it."

I would really suggest to anyone who wants to expatriate simply because they can't handle the way things are at home; look inside yourself. Find out what it is within you that prevents you from adapting to the changes around you at home. Deal with that, change the way you react to the changes. It will go much further toward making you happier when you do. Moving to another country is a very costly proposition in terms of time, money, effort and stress. Can you imagine going through all that only to find out you made the biggest mistake in your life? I can tell you that once the "honeymoon phase" of Culture Shock's evolution wears off (and that only takes 3 - 6 months), the new surrounding and constant changes will drive you crazy.

Becoming an expat is definitely NOT for everybody. There are far more horror stories than there are success stories. To paraphrase Erma Bombeck's famous line, "The reason the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence is because it REALLY IS growing over the septic tank."

Cheers,
William James Woodward, Expat-blog Experts Team

Just to let everybody know the good news...

I just received an e-mail from the Ouvidoria Geral do Ministério da Justiça informing me that my application for Permanency based on having a Brazilian child has been granted and will be published in the DOU in the next few days. I was told that I will be receiving a registered letter to advise me to report to the Federal Police to apply for my (third time around) new Cédula de Identidade Estrangeiro and this time it will finally be PERMANENT.

Over 4 years of a nightmarish struggle has finally come to an end! Thank God.

Cheers,
William James Woodward, Expat-blog Experts Team

wjwoodward wrote:

Just to let everybody know the good news...

I just received an e-mail from the Ouvidoria Geral do Ministério da Justiça informing me that my application for Permanency based on having a Brazilian child has been granted and will be published in the DOU in the next few days. I was told that I will be receiving a registered letter to advise me to report to the Federal Police to apply for my (third time around) new Cédula de Identidade Estrangeiro and this time it will finally be PERMANENT.

Over 4 years of a nightmarish struggle has finally come to an end! Thank God.

Cheers,
William James Woodward, Expat-blog Experts Team

Congratulations James!    You scored a victory. 

I believe the Brazilian Immigration Officials heard about your Visa Class Action suit threat and convinced themselves by reading this thread that you mean business.  They reacted promptly as required by law only when they realized the dark clouds gathering above their head.  You scared the s**t out of them and they feared for their jobs.  James, you are my hero. 

I hope that the officials got a harsh lesson of what to expect from you next time they play tricks with law-abiding new citizens. 

I am impressed by your extreme bullying power and I do not even dare imagining what you would have done to the officials if the suit would have begun.  Perhaps tie them to a tree in the jungle. 
Who in Brazil dares to play games with James, the Expat-Blog.com's best forummer? 

Now what will you do:
- make a new baby?
- continue the rebellious action fighting for the rights of other newcomers to Brazil?

All this requires many bottles of Budweiser.

New baby days are long over (de-activated the factory after 5 production runs!)

Wouldn't tie anybody up in the rainforest, not even from the MoJ.

Fight for the rights of expats and Brazilians alike...... well that's in my blood.

Cheers,
James

James, I hate to be the party pooper but you probably should not get your hopes up too much as this has happened to you before.

Not this time Matt, I got the official confirmation from the Ouvidoria-Geral of the Ministry of Justice and their website also says that the visa has been granted, just waiting for publication in the DOU.

The nightmare is over!

wjwoodward wrote:

Not this time Matt, I got the official confirmation from the Ouvidoria-Geral of the Ministry of Justice and their website also says that the visa has been granted, just waiting for publication in the DOU.

The nightmare is over!

So now you need to renew your passport to put the visa in correct? Or are you just planning on using your RNE?

Just got my new passport a month ago.

wjwoodward wrote:

Just got my new passport a month ago.