Tax Preparation Service Costs

I just received a quote for tax preparation and they seem quite high compared to overseas tax preparation services provided in the US.


Preparation and delivery of 2022 Annual Tax return DIRPF for the period in which I became a Tax Resident (December and 6 days of Nov): R$5200


Preparing of monthly Carne Leao for foreign income 2023, for January, February and March:  R$700 per month


Preparation and delivery of Central Bank Statement for assets abroad (DCBE): R$2500


Leaving Brazil permanently at end of March.

Preparation and delivery of Definitive Country Exiting Communication (CSDP): R$600


Preparation and delivery of Definitive Country Exiting Statement (DSDP): R$5200


I gagging at the costs since they total almost 3 times the actual tax owed.


Any comments or suggestions.

Any guide to filing out any of the forms?


thanks

I use Andersen Ballão Advocacia based in Curitiba (I'm in Santa Catarina, so I don't think your location matters).  They charge me R$450/hr.  Usually my Carne Leao DARF preparation requires 30-45 minutes/month depending on whether I ask any questions.  I forget how long the annual initial taxes took but they charged me about R$5200.  It's not inexpensive but they speak English, and seem competent.

Hope this helps.

I agree in some respects. I'm just gagging at R$5200 for 2022 taxes when my 2022 tax bill will only be about R$900.

Wow this seems totally crazy. What's the monthly income requirement? My foreign income is pretty minimal these days and I spent much of 2022 willfully unemployed. That seems really rough. Is that what everyone does? Is it true that your first year of residency is tax exempt? Would I still need to file?

You'll want to check with a tax professional on that but my understanding is you become a tax resident upon entering Brazil as a permanent resident, so you're likely not tax exempt for any period of time. 

02/03/23 @rnbtg. For 2022 taxes due in 2023, a person bringing R$28,559.70 or more annually into Brazil may be subject to income tax on it, as well as any capital gains and profits generated in Brazil.


WRT monthly payments, here's where, as I always say, everyone's situation is different, and they should follow their tax advisors' advice. I've asked my accountant about carnê leão, and she's told me that I don't have to use it. Since 2018, I've been paying my taxes in full at the same time I file my return each year, and have never had a penalty, or even a question. No one should do this except on the basis of individualized advice from a qualified professional.


Source of general information (in Portuguese) :


https://www.contabeis.com.br/noticias/5 … s-de-2023/

@abthree


I only receive social security in dollars  on PayPal. I don't have any income. I received my inheritance in January. I plan on filing my usual Turbo Tax for USA for some work I did in 1st. quarter 2022.


It will be at least a year before I become a resident. Right now I am a Freeloader, I mean temporary visa living with my wife loader.


When will I need to pay taxes in Brazil.


Roddie in Retirement🕵🏽

This is my simple understanding.


Your a tax resident the moment you receive your RNM or exceed 183 days on any other visa.


If you are a non-resident tax payer eg a long term visitor or here on a 1 yr family reunion visa, then you only pay tax on Brazilian income.

If you are a resident tax payer e.g. you have an RNM you are required to pay tax on Brazilian income and file tax for world wide income (from the day you become a legal resident - date on the back of your RNM).


Even if you have zero taxable income it is still advisable to file to prevent problems later.


USA Foreign tax and Medical Insurance Premiums can be deducted from Brazilian tax reducing the tax bill. (bringing mine to R$0)


I finally found a tax preparer (recommended to me) to work with who spoke English and seemed very transparent about the tax process. They do a lot of tax preparation for non-Brazilian residents. Their fees were a bit more reasonable.


They explained that there is an option on how you file your taxes, monthly or yearly. As many members have mentioned before, each case is individual. I didn't understand this before but now I do.

As others have recommended, its best to find a tax preparer and consult with them. Many want an up front fee to consult (fee is deductible from any contract signed later). The one I am using was willing to talk and consult for free, probably because they know you will go with them because you will like their transparency.


If you want their contact inform then PM me.

I think you will find that Social Security is classified as worldwide income.

I concure with abthree about the carnê leão.  My first two years hear, I just filed taxes in March and paid the amount due.   


Rates are definitely high.  My first two years in Brazil, I didn't know about the carnê leão, I just filed annually and paid the tax due then.    Accountant fee was $R1860 total per year.


Since I've started a business here, I pay a firm R$400 a month to handle the monthly tax filings, unsure what they are going to charge me to file.

02/03/23 @abthree
I only receive social security in dollars on PayPal. I don't have any income. I received my inheritance in January. I plan on filing my usual Turbo Tax for USA for some work I did in 1st. quarter 2022.

It will be at least a year before I become a resident. Right now I am a Freeloader, I mean temporary visa living with my wife loader.

When will I need to pay taxes in Brazil.
Roddie in Retirement🕵🏽
-@Roddie Simmons


Seinfo3 has stated the liability situation very well:  after 183 in Brazil a foreigner is subject to income tax and may have a tax liability, whether a resident or not. 


I'm not sure what kind of visa you're here on, but I'm concerned about your statement that "It will be at least a year before I become a resident.", because I don't know of any Brazilian visa that let's a foreigner stay here that long without obtaining a CRNM.  Be careful not to overstay your visa:  as the spouse of Brazilian you probably won't be thrown out of the country, but it would still be a heap of trouble and expense that you don't need.

I overstaying my visa because I had an active residency application in MigrantWeb. So I was able to legally stay pending a decision. So I stayed about 207 days in Brazil in 2002 total. But one trip was about 3 weeks and the second was 186 days or so. So I have to pay taxes for 2022? When you say "bringing into Brazil" what does that mean? All my money is in my US account and I use credit cards to pay for pretty much everything. However, I did make a couple ATM withdrawals and transferred a few thousand dollars info my girlfriends pix account for Remitly to pay some random things. Is that income coming into Brazil? I didn't earn any income in Brazil. I'm retired and all my income goes into my US accounts. Then I just pay off my credit cards with my US account. And I pay Airbnb with US credit card.

You are taxable on your income in another country even if you don't bring it into Brazil.


I suspect that "bringing into Brazil just refers to transferring money to an account here" which is also taxable.

That is my understanding as well.  You're taxed on all global income whether you bring it here or not.  Foreign taxes are deductible from your Brazilian tax liability (at the least with US earned income and income tax).

02/04/23  R$28,559.70  is the Receita Federal's cutoff:  annual income over that amount may be subject to income tax. 


What constitutes taxable income is best determined with one's Brazilian tax advisor. 

Can anyone explain what this means? I can't wrap my head around a 12 month period. Wouldn't any period be a 12 month period? When would any period not be a 12 month period?


"American expats are considered tax residents if he/she has a temporary visa (no employment contract with an entity in Brazil) and has lived in Brazil for more than 183 days within any given period of twelve months".

02/05/23 Can anyone explain what this means? I can't wrap my head around a 12 month period. Wouldn't any period be a 12 month period? When would any period not be a 12 month period?
"American expats are considered tax residents if he/she has a temporary visa (no employment contract with an entity in Brazil) and has lived in Brazil for more than 183 days within any given period of twelve months".
-@jasonlovesdogs


Two different ministries, two different bases of calculation. The Justice Ministry -- Polícia Federal -- deals mostly in rolling twelve month periods to prevent visitors from trying to use the calendar to game the immigration rules.


The Finance Ministry -- Receita Federal -- deals mostly in tax years, which for the great majority of individuals means calendar years.


For example, I arrived on a Permanent Resident Visa on November 1, 2017, and my CIE (now CRNM) was issued on November 17. So I was living in Brazil for two months as a resident in 2017, but that wasn't enough to trigger an income tax liability for Tax Year 2017, which my accountant later confirmed.  I was here for the bulk of Tax Year 2018, so there was no question that I was liable for income tax that year.


ETA -- Out of curiosity, what's the source of the quote?

@jasonlovesdogs as it was explained to me ...... 183 days in a rolling 365 days period, similar to the 180 days visitor visa in 365 days.


If anyone else has a different definition I would like to here it since my Exit Tax will be Mar 30th and by then I will have been in the country 170 days. At that point I am no longer a tax resident. By my calculation I can revisit Brazil for about 12 days before Oct 1 without triggering the 183 day tax residency. Nov 1st it become 42 days etc.


If for tax purposes it is calculated from Jan 1st - Dec 31st, then I will only have been here 90 days which would allow me to revisit this year for another 90 days before re-triggering my tax residency.


I think it is the first calculation method.

@abthree Got it. That help. It was on an expat tax preparation website.

Most Brazilians do not use their CPF when buying things so they do not get traced so the government levies 100% import tax.

I'm so confused. I just talked to an accountant with a good reputation in Brazil that speaks English that does this all the time and was recommended to me and she said I don't have to pay taxes unless I own property or I earn Brazilian income within the country. But it doesn't sound right to me. From my research if you've been in the country over 183 days your subject to worldwide income. This includes retirement income to my understanding. I feel like I need to consult someone else. Does anyone have any recommendations of someone I can consult with that's reputable? I don't want to risk my residency when I renew it in a year because I didn't pay taxes.

@jasonlovesdogs I'm pretty sure she is wrong.

I contacted 4 different Brazilian Tax preparers and they all concurred that as a permanent resident you owe tax on worldwide income.

@jasonlovesdogs pm me and I'll give you the info for the tax preparer I finally settled on. Both her and the owner of the company speak English very well. I had a free video consult with the tax preparer and really liked how she was very open about what I needed to do. Also, offering to show me the process so that I can file by myself in the future if I chose to do so. My quotes were for 2022 taxes, 2023 Jan - Mar taxes, the Bank Declaration for excessive assets, Exit tax notification and Exit tax filing. They ranged from R$4500 to R$12500. I ended up choosing the R$8K because the seemed really easy to deal with and very open about the process. Without the bank declaration and Exit tax filing. they quote should be much less.

Just because you are a tax resident and responsible for paying taxes on worldwide income doesn't mean you will end up paying tax. You receive a tax credit for US taxes paid, and medical insurance premiums. A tax credit is deducible from the final Brazilian tax due. After tax credit, it is possible that the tax bill generated by your retirement income might be zero.

@seinfo3 I'm not sure if I should file US taxes or Brazilian taxes first. The US offers a tax credit on foreign taxes and you are saying Brazil offers a credit on US taxes.

02/19/23 @seinfo3 I'm not sure if I should file US taxes or Brazilian taxes first. The US offers a tax credit on foreign taxes and you are saying Brazil offers a credit on US taxes.
-@jasonlovesdogs


Filing your US taxes first lets you deduct any earned Brazilian income and gives you a current record of US taxes paid, which can be useful in filing your Brazilian taxes.  US taxes are also due about two weeks before Brazilian taxes.

Thanks. I don't have any earned income from Brazil. Does that change anything?

@seinfo3 That seems like an outrageous amount.

@jasonlovesdogs I think it was high too but keep in mind they are doing more than just filing last years taxes and the first 3 months of this year.

File US taxes first and pay them as soon as possible would be my preference. To get a US tax credit for foreign taxes you have to meet very specific guidelines with regards to residency. If you still have any ties in the US that infer you really still live there, then I think it can be hard to qualify for the US tax credit on foreign taxes. Do you still bank in the US and keep your money there? I think that might infer you haven't really transitioned to another country. However, I'm more vague on these regulations since I know I don't qualify and therefore didn't put much further effort into research.

Income in the US that puts you into a US effective tax bracket of about 13%, easily puts you in a 27.5% Brazilian tax bracket. Pay your US taxes and take the tax credit in Brazil to lower your tax here. DOn't forget your medical insurance premiums. I'm still waiting to find out if all 3 premiums are deducible. Medicare, Medigap and my International Travel Medical Insurance. If they are, this adds up to a big deduction.

@seinfo3 Good information. I just got residency in Brazil so I have absolutely nothing here in Brazil yet. I just retired last year so it just pension income. But my understanding is worldwide income is taxed in Brazil. I have no health insurance. I get free healthcare through the VA in the US and partially in Brazil but it's limited. Plus I just signed up for the free Brazilian healthcare. I usually just take the standard deduction in the US.

How many Brazilians actually file income taxes? You only raise red flags if you use your cpf to buy big ticket items and have no income reported.

@seinfo3 Yes I would like the contact for your tax preparer (accountant or lawyer). Thank you

I just received a quote for tax preparation and they seem quite high compared to overseas tax preparation services provided in the US.
Preparation and delivery of 2022 Annual Tax return DIRPF for the period in which I became a Tax Resident (December and 6 days of Nov): R$5200

Preparing of monthly Carne Leao for foreign income 2023, for January, February and March: R$700 per month

Preparation and delivery of Central Bank Statement for assets abroad (DCBE): R$2500

Leaving Brazil permanently at end of March.
Preparation and delivery of Definitive Country Exiting Communication (CSDP): R$600

Preparation and delivery of Definitive Country Exiting Statement (DSDP): R$5200

I gagging at the costs since they total almost 3 times the actual tax owed.

Any comments or suggestions.
Any guide to filing out any of the forms?

thanks
-@seinfo3

I do mine for free.     It's called Do it yourself. 


Unless I have enough money to find tax avoidance loopholes, there's no gain in getting some bookkeeper to look into my taxes.