Hydrogen Economy

@Pablo888
Hydrogen believers are idiots. - @alan279
I wouldn't call them idiots - and are the people believers or proponents? There is a difference. If you're an oil or gas producer, what do you want people working on - hydrogen or better batteries, solar, geothermal, etc.? Follow the money. - @mikehunter

Are the laws of thermodynamics different if you are an oil or gas extractor?

I want people working on mitigating our climate apocalypse. But I ain't got no money.

Oh, I get it. Sorry I'm so slow. Yes, the oil and gas extractors want to sell gray hydrogen while promising mythical green hydrogen. As the world burns.

@Pablo888

The Toyota Mirai is selling for $17,000 in Southern California now, with $15,000 of H2 fuel for free.

@Pablo888
The Toyota Mirai is selling for $17,000 in Southern California now, with $15,000 of H2 fuel for free. - @alan279

My friend has leased a Mirai for $250/month knowing that he is getting $250 worth of free H2 every month....  Good for the consumer but bad for the manufacturer. 

I wonder if Toyota is running this program just to justify carbon credits to offset their large carbon footprint?

Nowadays, people are more worried about getting insurance rather than buying a car.  It's almost as expensive to get the insurance - over the life of the vehicle.

Owing to the many fires, many homeowners also cannot afford house insurance.

@Pablo888

Maybe that's Toyota's business model, government subsidies in lieu of actual profits?

I haven't looked at carbon and tax credits for hydrogen cars, after learning that hydrogen for transport makes no economic sense, and hydrogen leakage causes great atmospheric harm.

IMHO, the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that had the Hindenburg been full of natural gas or propane, we'd all be cooking with hydrogen stoves and heating our homes with it as well.......heh.

"Oh the humanity"

@alan279

There is also another (and more likely) possible angle - politics.

This article of Jan 30, 2025 -> https://apnews.com/article/pennsylvania … 8af104849f

If you look at the ROI for that proposed Pennsylvania project, it does not make economic sense to implement but there is the tax-payers money available.

And as everyone knows, whenever there is politics involved, common-sense goes out the window fast.

IMHO, the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that had the Hindenburg been full of natural gas or propane, we'd all be cooking with hydrogen stoves and heating our homes with it as well.......heh.
"Oh the humanity" - @kolyaS122HSU

Funny - and a space rocket is full of methane rather than hydrogen....  Wait...  Methane can be used as rocket fuel and Titan would be the methane re-fueling station.

We just need to invent the Epstein drive to start the inter-solar methane transport business to send humanity across the galaxy...

Just dreaming here -- don't wake me up yet....

@kolyaS122HSU

Propane is heavier than air.

@kolyaS122HSU
Propane is heavier than air. - @alan279

I dropped out of high school in grade 10.

@Pablo888

What is the ROI of the Pennsylvania projects?

@Pablo888

Have you read the novels by Cory Doctorow, Charlie Stross and Iain M. Banks on interstellar economics?

Asimov and Heinlein touched on economics in their SF novels many years ago.

Ian McDonald’s Lunar trilogy may also be of interest, especially the Brazilian component.

@Pablo888
What is the ROI of the Pennsylvania projects? - @alan279

If you just add up all the possible revenue opportunities $100 x 3M + 49M + 15M, that does not even cover for the $1.5B of investment.  It looks like this project will not even recoup the initial investment.

@Pablo888
Have you read the novels by Cory Doctorow, Charlie Stross and Iain M. Banks on interstellar economics?
Asimov and Heinlein touched on economics in their SF novels many years ago.

Ian McDonald’s Lunar trilogy may also be of interest, especially the Brazilian component. - @alan279

No, I did not read very deep novels about space.  I grew up with French comics such as Yoko Tsuno and Luc Orient.  I still have those comic books...

I did read the "The Expanse" 9 volume series by James Corey...  Very interesting reading - but it's about action - not economy....

@Pablo888

The CNX natural gas company wants to turn coal mine gas into jet fuel. Fiction, no science?

I grew up with French comics such as Yoko Tsuno and Luc Orient. I still have those comic books... - @Pablo888

Dud you read Asterix & Obelisk ?

I grew up with that.

I grew up with French comics such as Yoko Tsuno and Luc Orient. I still have those comic books... - @Pablo888

Dud you read Asterix & Obelisk ?

I grew up with that. - @kolyaS122HSU

@kolyaS122HSU, yes.  I love those Goscinny classics.  The Uderzo ones are less interesting.  I also have all those in English and French.  I am planning on bringing the whole collection to my beach apartment so that everyone can enjoy those classics during relaxation time.  That was what I used to do when I was a kid in Mauritius....

@Pablo888
The CNX natural gas company wants to turn coal mine gas into jet fuel. Fiction, no science? - @alan279

I guess that it is possible to convert one organic material into another.  I am not sure that it is energy efficient to do the proposed project.

I think that your original idea was the best (solar - battery).  Just using this example to show that special interests have a way to divert from the optimal solution.

"The definition of genius is taking the complex and making it simple."  Einstein

Latest investments of Hydrogen in Mobility - from the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers)

https://www.sae.org/news/2025/02/hydrog … le-roundup

I think that hydrogen in cars is very much driven by Europe / Japan.  Very  unlikely that this investment will happen in the US given the "drill baby, drill" leader.

@Pablo888

Hydrogen propaganda. From SAE? 🙄

Airbus just cancelled its hydrogen plane project.

Hydrogen bus projects have all failed.

Hydrogen trains, too.

@Pablo888
Hydrogen propaganda. From SAE? 🙄
- @alan279

As long as there are special interests being funded, this dead fish will still appear to be alive. 

Strange that there is no talk about hydrogen supplying rocket companies such as Space X.  I guess that Elon would not buy the expensive grey hydrogen production argument....

Looks like hydrogen for transport is finally dead in 2025.

Hydrogen as a feedstock still makes sense, I think, but I'm no sort of chemist.

Biofuels and batteries for short haul aviation in the near term, but how will we fly internationally?