ILA not looking for qualified teachers

Not cash, quality.

Cambridge is pretty much top of the tree in the EFL world, so the school's strict policy makes a very nice advert for them.

Your thread is a moaning job, but you've managed to accidentally advertise the school as one that sticks to high standards.

You can do the Cambridge courses in many places, so your accusation of money grabbing is less than correct.

Fred,

It is definitely a moaning job.  I agree with you on that score.

I don't agree with you about the quality concept.  This is a classic case of form over substance.

I try to envision a scenario where I would be a better teacher today if I would have taken the Cambridge course.  I really don't think so. 

I have nothing against teachers at ILA.  In fact, I know some very good teachers who work there and are happy.  It is why I applied in the first place.  However, this policy by the school discourages experienced teachers like myself from joining the ranks.  It certainly benefits no one: teachers, students, or the school.

Which leads me to my supposition about money.  Is it possible that ILA, and other schools who implement a policy such as this, benefit financially from doing so?

chadmeek wrote:

Fred,

It is definitely a moaning job.  I agree with you on that score.

That much is an absolute, but it's worse as it's an uniformed moan.

chadmeek wrote:

I don't agree with you about the quality concept.  This is a classic case of form over substance.

I try to envision a scenario where I would be a better teacher today if I would have taken the Cambridge course.  I really don't think so.

You clearly know nothing of the top quality Cambridge courses, so I'll pass you a link.

http://www.cambridgeenglish.org/teachin … ons/celta/

chadmeek wrote:

....... However, this policy by the school discourages teachers like myself from joining the ranks.  It certainly benefits no one: teachers, students, or the school.

The company you claim are too fussy, thus missing out on your greatness, are actually trying to keep their own high standards of teaching by not employing people with qualifications that don't match their high standards, CELTA and above being probably the best ESL teaching qualifications in the world.

Their company and their rules, so you'll just have to live with your lack of the qualifications they want.

I see absolutely no fault on the company's side in this, but I see a lot from you in that your committing a libel against someone because you aren't good enough to be considered for a position in their language school.

You have also failed to explain how the school are cash grabbing as the CELTA courses are available all over the world, not exclusively from them.
Perhaps you'd like to explain your accusation, or maybe apologise to the company as you defamed them without cause, and you're plain wrong anyway.

Perhaps you can also explain why you don't believe Cambridge CELTA is any good, or would you also like to suggest Cambridge university isn't all that great? Oh, you already did.

We could also look at the differences between Cambridge university's 800 year old establishment, and their publishing side being the world's oldest continuous running press in the world, along with the almost total inability to fake or pay someone to give you a good result, all backed up by ofqual, against a franchise course, but you assure us it's just as good, so I won't.

Fred,

I appreciate the reply and the link.  In return, I will give you the link to the TEFL International course where I received my certificate. 

https://www.teflinternational.com/

Which program is externally validated by the Board of Academic Advisors:

http://www.teflph.com/index.php/home/boaa

I am certain that there are some differences between the programs.  Please inform me if there is a teaching formula or practice that would have made me a better teacher after all these years.  If so, I will admit I was wrong and take the CELTA course.

If there is no great formula or skill I could have acquired, I will stand by my opinion.

I am certain that the CELTA course is a good one.  But it is not the only comparable course.  Further, I don't really know how you can beat actual work in the field as a qualification.  I think it is you who are misguided on this issue.

As far as your personal accusations, they are without foundation as you do not know me.  Let's put it this way, I could probably teach a course for new teachers.

I do not know, but it possible that you work for either Cambridge or ILA administration.  Either would explain your defensive reaction.

I realize that I didn't address the money issue in my first reply so I added a paragraph (see above).  In essence, my point is that since the policy doesn't make practical sense, is it possible that there is some benefit financially to schools who implement this policy?  Of course, I will never know for certain and can only ask the question.

In essence, my point is that since the policy doesn't make practical sense, is it possible that there is some benefit financially to schools who implement this policy?

The policy makes perfect sense to anyone who understands Cambridge certification.
Sadly, you don't seem to, or possibly don't want to.

"Yes", is the answer. Maintaining high standards enables them to advertise them, thus potentially attracting more students.

You're repeating your accusation of a cash grab of some sort, but you sling mud without the slightest proof, nor do you seem to have the slightest understanding of the qualifications you're attempting to condemn as no better than anything else, and you seem to have missed the blindingly obvious - It's their company and they didn't think you were good enough for reasons that are entirely your fault.

I've been rejected for jobs in the past, but I didn't moan on about it, I did something about improving myself.
Saying that, I've never assumed I'm so great the employer is missing out on something fantastic and damaging his business by not employing me.

Still, I'm sure the company will see this thread, realise their massive error and employ you quickly in order to keep their business above water. I see your face on all their advertising by the end of next week.

Come to us, we employ some dude you've never heard of, and he has qualifications from a place most people will have to google in order to know who they are, and it's all backed up (so the franchise company that finds work for people who get their qualification claims) by a university hardly anyone has heard of.

That or they could stick to one of the best known, and obviously top quality qualification that is backed up by the second oldest university in the world, an institution that has a reputation only Oxford can match.

So, how about actually producing evidence the company are scamming in some way because they insist on top quality qualifications for their employees?

If you're unable to do so, an apology to the company would be in order.

Thank you for your reply Fred.

Unfortunately, you have lost the argument by not responding to any of my arguments about experience.

You have also lost the argument because I did not question or attack the Cambridge program. 

I only was questioning the school policy.  Two questions:

1.  Can you read?
2.  How important is experience in the field for a teaching job (or any other job for that matter)?

I'm pretty sure that you will give me another response outlining the benefits of the Cambridge course. 

Good luck being a shill for the Cambridge corporation.

Hello Chad,

I'm going to chime in here with a few observations from the perspective of an ESL English teacher with a career spanning over 28 years. My qualifications include a Bachelor of Arts (English) and a Bachelor of Education (English) from two world renowned Canadian universities, 14 years teaching in the public school system in Canada, and 14+ years in Brazil teaching private students. I have even operated my own small school here in Brazil as well.

To many language schools methodology and material are everything. They are reluctant at best to stray from either, so they have a strict policy of only hiring teaching staff that have the specific certification that matches their needs. In many cases, while the schools are privately owned, they are franchises of larger international enterprises. Most of those franchise agreements include clauses that require the school to teach only using their prescribed methodology, purchase all teaching materials directly from the franchiser, and to contract teachers who already hold the organization's certification, or train teachers for that specific certification. The rejection of your job application has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you are a qualified and experienced teacher. You do not have the qualifications and experience that are relevant to them.

Obviously the certification required by schools is completely market driven, and may even be determined by other outside factors such as requirements set down by Labor Ministries or Ministry of Education in some countries. So, you can't lay the problem entirely at the doorstep of the school, since you are not aware of the constraints that they may have to deal with.

One would think that two university degrees with majors in English, one being a Bachelor of Education and numerous years of classroom experience, that a proven track record of success and impecable references might make it easier to overcome such bureaucratic obstacles, but in my own personal experience they really do not. If the vast majority of potential students are seeking CELTA, TESOL, IELTS, TOEFL, TOEIC, or whatever the case may be; that market demand is going to be what the schools will cater to. That only makes good business sense, nobody goes into business intending to fail; they're going to research the market and tailor their product or service to that market.

Rather than lamenting your lack of success in landing the job, perhaps you should consider two logical options.

First you could consider teaching private classes. This clearly takes time and you'd have to work hard at building up a student base that would provide you with sufficient income. Your recruiting would also need to be ongoing, in order to compensate for student turnover. The obvious advantage here is that your earnings will be considerably higher in the end, since you're charging what the market will bear and not seeing the greater portion of that clawed back by a school. You are also your own boss and can tailor your working hours to suit your personal needs.

Your second option would be to invest in the additional CELTA certification, which seems to be more sought after in your area. This would require a small investment on your part, and the time taken to study and obtain the certification; but that is an investment in your future. It also would make your current teaching experience relevant regardless of the methodology and material used in the gaining of that experience.

Really, we're not talking about a 3 or 4 year university program here; but rather a one month course to obtain the necessary certification. The extra certification will also make you more attractive to private students while at the same time improving your employability when applying at established schools.

Just my two cents worth.

Cheers,
James
expat.com Experts Team

chadmeek wrote:

Thank you for your reply Fred.

Unfortunately, you have lost the argument by not responding to any of my arguments about experience.

You have also lost the argument because I did not question or attack the Cambridge program. 

I only was questioning the school policy.  Two questions:

1.  Can you read?
2.  How important is experience in the field for a teaching job (or any other job for that matter)?

Experience is important, but experience based on training that doesn't suit the employer counts for nothing.
Welding and riveting are two different tasks.

I did reply with the benefits of Cambridge, one being you would probably have got the interview if you were qualified in line with the company's requirements.
That isn't being a "Shrill" (or maybe, shill"), it's a fact.

You did question the school's policy and the Cambridge program.
You made a direct accusation the school were on some sort of cash grab, and you questioned the value of Cambridge qualifications, but have totally failed to explain either.

Let's keep it simple - Please explain how ILA are cash grabbing by demanding a well established, internationally accepted qualification you are able to take at any one of a number of examination centres spread over the world, not just their establishments.

The thread title, "ILA not looking for qualified teachers", being an obvious lie.
In fact they're looking for highly qualified teachers, and they're sticking to their own high standards by rejecting your inferior application.

You have to face it, your qualifications are not suitable for many jobs, and your attitude stinks.
The latter proven by a thread moaning about how you're too good for a school, and how that school is not looking for qualified teachers, a lie.

In fact, you're just proving the school has high standards, but you're making yourself look foolish and arrogant.

James wrote:

Just my two cents worth.

Probably closer to a millions dollars if you value the post on accuracy and good advice.

James response seems eminently  sensible to me.

I am not an English teacher and I don't have any qualifications in English other than a GCE in Eng Lang and a GCE in Eng Lit. However there isn't a week that goes by that I am not asked to teach English to someones kid.

The latest approach was from a number of parents close to where I live who got together and offered me 30  USD an hour for 2 hours of tuition every Sunday. I will decline their offer - I said I would think about it for a couple f days so that they didn't think I was dismissing them out of hand.

So there is a massive demand for English tuition here, which I am sure you could find a way to use to your advantage.

As for the organization you approached for employment: Do yo really think that they should change their rules just for you, even though you apparently have parallel qualifications?

It isn't just about teachers qualifications, it's also about continuity of quality. The organization you approached for employment have decided upon a single qualification criteria that allows them continuity of the quality and content of their teaching and which at the same time allows them to provide both continuous assessment of students and teachers alike - a process known in industry as Quality Control.

Basically, it is their train set and their rules. You fell at the first fence, so must look somewhere else, or widen your qualification base.

Supposing that you and another candidate both had the appropriate qualifications, but the other candidate had four years experience to your three years. Would you argue the case that a 25% difference in experience is irrelevant and invite your prospective employer to investigate the different schools at which you and the other candidate worked in the past to undertake  comparative qualitative assessment of your respective teaching experience?

Your argument is born of hurt feelings and outrage, but seems to me that the gist of what you are saying is that it doesn't matter if you use the word "there" or "their" in a sentence, since the spelling is nearly the same and anyway the reader should be able to tell which spelling should have been used, by the context of the sentence.

Just swallow your pride and move on. There are other companies out there that can use your experience and expertise.

I wonder what the school and Cambridge would have to say about the accusation of money grabbing and poor quality Cambridge books.

Perhaps our esteemed OP could mention the books in question, giving examples of errors so we can contact the writers and correct their work.

Good luck with that one Fred 

stumpy wrote:

Good luck with that one Fred 

Ner, it's really easy.
I know a couple of the guys who write the books, and I have their numbers.
Despite their many years at the top of their industry and checking by equally experienced top level educators, even the best in education aren't infallible.
I'm sure I can pass the OP's explanations and corrections on  to them.

I have to sy that over the past couple f years I have picked up the odd mistake in English text books over here, but who wrote / supplied them I didn't bother to take note of. In each case though it was prolly a typo.

I found a few in a well known text book from Singapore. The corrections were passed to the publisher.

I have found errors in textbook material produced by Cambridge, Trinity, Longman, MacMillan, and all the others during my 28 years of teaching. All these books are compiled by a team, they're not the work of one individual.

We're all human, all subject to making mistakes and the proofreaders for these publishers are not grammarians. Little things like this routinely slip through the cracks.

Just because a textbook contains an error does not negate its overall value. It just means that the chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Cheers,
James
expat.com Experts Team

In my opinion which observed many years in ILA, the problem is not the certificate or experience. If you want to join with them, just take CELTA/DELTA from ILA. Surely you can sign a contract with them soon after you pay the course fee 

I did the CELTA with IH years ago. probably the best investment I ever made.

I would be cautious about recommending it for young uns nowadays though. Europe is hopeless for teaching salaries and Asia seems dead set on making you lie about five years experience while wanting a blond, 21 year old kid to employ.

Thaiger wrote:

I did the CELTA with IH years ago. probably the best investment I ever made.

I would be cautious about recommending it for young uns nowadays though. Europe is hopeless for teaching salaries and Asia seems dead set on making you lie about five years experience while wanting a blond, 21 year old kid to employ.

You make a good point.

On the other hand I could prolly make a couple of thou a month teaching English  from my house, if I was so inclined - and I am hardly a blond Adonis. I once made the mistake, when I lived in D2 of agreeing to coach a neighbors daughter prior to her exam - FOC, I don't pretend to be a qualified teacher and all they wanted was for their 9 year old kid to practice on me with me correcting her pronunciation. Within a week we must have had 20 people from the surrounding apartments requesting that I teach kids of all ages (and all in the same class).

When I declined, some of the parents became rather petulant, asking me why I taught one persons kids and not theirs - the fact that the kid I was helping was the next door neighbors kid and that her father was a drinking buddy was lost on them. "Well you can drink beer with me too," was a common response.

Alcoholism beckoned.

Anyway, there is plenty of scope for good English teachers to earn money here. But, be careful as Vietnamese business and employment ethics are not as we know them (and as a foreigner you have very few, if any, rights).

charmavietnam wrote:

In my opinion which observed many years in ILA, the problem is not the certificate or experience. If you want to join with them, just take CELTA/DELTA from ILA. Surely you can sign a contract with them soon after you pay the course fee 

CELTA is assessed externally, so you're saying the company is corrupt in that they aren't sticking to their own rules, or they have some sort of cheat going on with Cambridge.

Care to comment?

My 2 cents.....Cambridge is a dinosaur. Students here in Vietnam are bored with Cambridge. The monopoly created by Cambridge is obvious at any book store and ILA is notorious for Pretending to be #1. Vietnam is going through changes and in the professional teaching arena, outdated fat-cats like Cambridge are being challenged with new approaches towards curriculum. Oxford is just one example that threatens the status quo created by Cambridge.  Many welcome the changes that are occurring throughout Vietnam to benefit the students and challenge them in new ways. If indeed you have been here in Vietnam for any length of time, you are as aware of the need for change as I am. Vietnamese are creative, resourceful and quite capable. I challenge all teachers to be as creative and innovative as our students and step outside the "box" so that the transition from a "choke hold" status quo may become but a shadow of the past. Quite frankly, the students are bored and fed-up with business as usual. Many teachers work overtime to offer alternatives and the results become evident by student satisfaction and progress. Teach on!!!

I guess that the old style books with kids going to the park and flying kites etc., are now a bit dated. There is some excellent material online for English teachers now. As I have said before I am not an English teacher but, I have done  bit of free coaching of kids to give them confidence for their exams.

A neighbors daughter, 8 years of age was brought round to me by her father as all she could do was cry in frustration whilst doing homework because no one could help her at home.

I helped her by going online and downloading simple stuff that she could relate to more easily than the black and white photocopied text books she was used to.

That and just talking to her to get her confidence in speaking English worked very well. Within a week there were no more tears and a few weeks later I was rewarded a big beaming smile when she came round with her father to announce that she had passed her English exams with flying colors.

Of course it was her teachers who should get the credit, I just gave her the confidence she needed at the right time.

I didn't say CELTA has some problem but ILA prefer their CELTA graduates(I think you know well that they offers CELTA/DELTA courses) as their future teachers. Even one of their marketing technique is "Join for CELTA in ILA and sign a contract to become ILA teacher".

Fred wrote:

CELTA is assessed externally, so you're saying the company is corrupt in that they aren't sticking to their own rules, or they have some sort of cheat going on with Cambridge.
Care to comment?

charmavietnam wrote:

I didn't say CELTA has some problem but ILA prefer their CELTA graduates(I think you know well that they offers CELTA/DELTA courses) as their future teachers. Even one of their marketing technique is "Join for CELTA in ILA and sign a contract to become ILA teacher".

Fred wrote:

CELTA is assessed externally, so you're saying the company is corrupt in that they aren't sticking to their own rules, or they have some sort of cheat going on with Cambridge.
Care to comment?

I have to stress here, regardless of what anyone says or suggests, there is no way a Cambridge CELTA can be cheated upon by an examination centre as Cambridge send their own examiners and the papers are marked externally.
"Sign up for a course and get a job" could mean the thread title is correct, but it can't mean a school is up to some sort of cheat on the CELTA exams.

vnescape wrote:

My 2 cents.....Cambridge is a dinosaur. Students here in Vietnam are bored with Cambridge.

Gosh, they have a short attention span, or maybe they take years longer than they should to pass exams.
I find the books are rarely the problem, but a boring and/or lousy teacher will have that effect.

Irrespective of which piece of paper you bought after investing a couple of weeks of your life, you still remain bottom feeders in a commercial cesspit masquerading as education. You work in a largely corrupt and dirty industry spawned from a lack of home country qualified teachers willing to relocate to your neck of the woods wherever it may be unless on a good expat package with all the bells and whistles forever unavailable to you. You are instructors of a language in the same way as a tradesman instructs an apprentice. All this talk of becoming a teacher through one month and a cash payment is ludicrous. Thanks.

aussie63 wrote:

Irrespective of which piece of paper you bought after investing a couple of weeks of your life, you still remain bottom feeders in a commercial cesspit masquerading as education. You work in a largely corrupt and dirty industry spawned from a lack of home country qualified teachers willing to relocate to your neck of the woods wherever it may be unless on a good expat package with all the bells and whistles forever unavailable to you. You are instructors of a language in the same way as a tradesman instructs an apprentice. All this talk of becoming a teacher through one month and a cash payment is ludicrous. Thanks.

Band 5, IELTS Writing

14–17  TOEFL IBT Writing

CEFR level = B1

aussie63 wrote:

Irrespective of which piece of paper you bought after investing a couple of weeks of your life, you still remain bottom feeders in a commercial cesspit masquerading as education. You work in a largely corrupt and dirty industry spawned from a lack of home country qualified teachers willing to relocate to your neck of the woods wherever it may be unless on a good expat package with all the bells and whistles forever unavailable to you. You are instructors of a language in the same way as a tradesman instructs an apprentice. All this talk of becoming a teacher through one month and a cash payment is ludicrous. Thanks.

I was biting my tongue earlier because I too am deeply offended by INSTRUCTORS who insist on calling themselves teachers, after having shelled out a few bucks and taken a one month course that is even available online in most cases.

Now that you've broken the ice aussie63, I applaud your courage. Just so everybody get's it straight teaching is a profession that (at least in the developed world) requires a UNIVERSITY DEGREE or even two. If you don't have at least one please don't call yourself a teacher, it's extremely offensive to those of us who have dedicated our lives to teaching.

Cheers,
James, BA, BEd.
expat.com Experts Team

chadmeek (OP)--ILA is their school and they, therefore, get to choose whom they hire to instruct their students. To quote the late photographer Dean Collins, "Beauty is in the eye of he who signs the checks."

Are you, by chance, of the generation whose parents taught them "everyone is special" and "we all deserve a trophy, even the losers"? If so, they lied to you.

If you want to play ILA's game, you get to follow their rules. No matter what your experience, you are NOT qualified to instruct under their umbrella. IF they were to make an exception for you, where do they now draw the line? I have almost 20 years' experience in teaching adults and a TESOL certificate, yet I am also not qualified to teach there because I don't have the right certification--I wouldn't even apply.

You have two choices:
1) Take the course they require
2) Move on