Why do some motor drivers don't look, before they go forward, Ahead?

missmae wrote:

I didn't mean to be offensive but that's how u drive here.
I see all those complaining expats saying THEY LOVE VIETNAM but at the same time all they do is COMPLAINING and QUESTIONING.

Guys, we are in Vietnam. It's a developing country. It's one of the poorest countries. It's Southeast Asia. We are NOT in the US, Canada, Australia, England or another developed country. When will you REALIZE it?

You keep complaining about the locals, the tourists the people and I'm wondering why you don't move home where everything is perfect?

Can't you just embrace the things here and adapt?

I'd already said all I wanted to in this thread but this rejoinder compounds your offense and pushes several of my buttons and I feel the need for the catharsis of response.  First of all I am going to do the opposite of what you did; I am going to start at the most general level and drill back down to the specificity of the actual, you know, topic. 

What you've done here is dishonest and manipulative.  To say that living somewhere new necessarily requires regarding it as perfection & paradise and "accepting" everything about it is absurd, unworthy of entertainment.  It wasn't true where I came from, it isn't true of any country I've lived in, it isn't true of any place on earth.  Even Ursula K. LeGuin's fictitious Omelas had the wretched neglected boy in the basement.  We will praise what we like and complain about what we don't, and we should have every reasonable expectation of not having to get smarmy little scolds about the latter.  And lose the all-caps, please.

Anyway, what you said is crap.  I've been to other developing countries, including poorer ones than here, and seen people checking their rear-view mirrors, look to the left before bolting out into traffic, respect others on the road, observe stoplights.  The Terrible Driver is indeed the rule here, part of a general pattern of disrespectful pushiness that also has people cutting in line, breaking into yelling right next to others' ears, and smoking next to others in restaurants.  Until you get up into the educated upper classes, boorishness is the rule here and on the road it's deadly.  If someone shoves in front of me at the airport I'll whack him with a newspaper, if someone drives in front of my car he not only risks his life, he risks mine, as in the continuity thereof.

I know the traffic here is crazy. Vietnamese don't care about each other. It's true even I don't care ... that's what I learned to survive here.

You can complain and it will change nothing. It's in our minds. It's a I DONT CARE ABOUT YOU mentality that prepares you for the streets of Vietnam;

Like I said before when Vietnamese drive here texting, smoking or even on the phone, they are "binh tinh". They are not distracted about who's coming from the left or right. They think "I drive first" and others have to wait.

Most times it works.

Summary: "That's the way it is."  The shallowest argument anyone can make.  Come up with a formulation that "explains" it, toss in a little Vietnamese to add an authoritative gloss, it and scold anyone who doesn't buy your tepid formulation.  Shame on you.

Well, no, it isn't working.  Not when there are so many paint-marks on the roads where people died, not when a human corpse in the road is as common as a dead animal.  Just because most people get home alive on most days doesn't mean everything it fine.  It's not fine.  It's horrible.  I wouldn't mind seeing some of these weaving aggressive drivers getting hauled away in chunks but I'll be goddamned if I want a couple of dead kids on my conscience.

When we take a driving test in the USA, if we don't check our rear-view mirrors every few seconds, we fail.  The idea that changing lanes without looking is an acceptable substitute is monstrously facile and to suggest that not just .. accepting this has dimensions of cultural bias is probably the dumbest thing I am going to read all day.

I will never fathom how anyone can justify the driving here with"its Viet Nam, thats the way it is" and cancer kills,so should we just say thats the way it is and not try to combat it.

I work at the second biggest company in Viet Nam which employs many,many engineers, when I ask the locals who work there what they would like to see improve in Viet Nam,its usually two things, the traffic and education.

colinoscapee wrote:

I find there are no rules, like when the lights change and the traffic from the opposite direction drive across in front of you thinking its their right. Now I do understand why they do it due to the amount of traffic in some places. But I live off a fairly small street that enters at a set of traffic lights onto a main street, even if I am the only bike there, they will still cut across in front of me and not wait. At the end of the day, they are not good drivers, you can say there are unwritten laws about how to drive here, tell that to the people who get killed every day from impatient drivers.

@ colinoscapee Non sequitur comment. As far as the people who get killed by impatient drivers; I have never met one, not even one.

@NOT INHCMC

There is no point discussing this issue with you as you seem to take offence easily and your mind is obviously made up. Odd literary references don't make any points as well as the absurdity of referencing deaths as validation of your feelings. Some day, perhaps you will have an epiphany as to how the traffic works in an unworkable environment and you will post your apologies.

I do believe wrote:

@NOT INHCMC

There is no point discussing this issue with you as you seem to take offence easily and your mind is obviously made up. Odd literary references don't make any points as well as the absurdity of referencing deaths as validation of your feelings. Some day, perhaps you will have an epiphany as to how the traffic works in an unworkable environment and you will post your apologies.

Yes my mind is made up.  Keeping it open when sufficient evidence is in isn't worthwhile.  The evidence is more than plain.  Aside from the corpses on the road, we have a workman whose two boys have no mother thanks to a motorbike rider who'd "had a few too many" and ran her down.  Pretty much everyone I know here is at most two degrees of separation from a bike death or a life-changing accident.  The "way it is" here cannot be said to be "working."

As for the reference, it's take you under ten minutes to find it and read it, scarcely more time than it took to diss me for using it. 

rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/dunnweb/rprnts.omelas.pdf

And if you don't think that referring to VN's horrible traffic death statistics is germane to a discussion of traffic safety, well, insert some expression of a few X's short of a Y.   And, oh, it's uncommon to meet people who've been killed.

youtube.com/watch?v=G8GwT7ZotCg

IDB, please try to refrain from the personal stuff, I let myself be dragged mildly into responding in kind but that isn't what I want to do here.  I respond to missmae's positions and disagreed with them, vehemently, even unto " that may be the dumbest thing I will read all day," but I stopped short of anything like "you must be a complete idiot."  Let's keep it that way.

There is more going on here than griping.  Admittedly we can't change VN, we certainly have to refrain from anything like involvement in politics, but we can teach by example.  People here tend to look up to us, in part because we have more money but sometimes under the misapprehension that we have things together better than they do, and when it comes to driving, we do. 

We can scrupulously use our turn signals, we can drive carefully, we can be courteous drivers instead of acting boorishly.  It may not be much but I absolutely refuse to acquire unequivocally bad habits in the interest of "doing like the Romans."

Neither have I, funny that.

I do believe wrote:

Some day, perhaps you will have an epiphany as to how the traffic works in an unworkable environment and you will post your apologies.

Apologies for what?  Make some sense, would you? 

I move to a country where the standard transportation isn't the automobile with its protective hard shell but the motorbike.  But instead of driving more carefully to reflect the reduced protection of the vehicle, people drive like adolescent maniacs, bursting insanely into oncoming traffic without even looking, caroming through intersections without a glance at the cross street, changing lanes in horribly dense traffic without a care.  The only adaptation anyone has come up with is to honk constantly, a cacophany of horns that nobody pays attention to. 

And despite abundant evidence in the form of dead bodies and puddles of blood and weaving drunks, I am told here by three people that "that's just how it is" and with a suggestion that I have some problem for not reacting to this demented slaughter by throwing armloads of flowers in the air and crying, "Oh, it's all so beautiful!!!!"

Well, no, I am not going to drive like that.  I'm going to drive defensively as all hell, stick to the side of the road, not try to be the first out even before the light changes, look carefully when I enter traffic.  Deal.  I've not a damned thing to apologize for, and I expect those of you who have elected to do like the Romans will have the life expectancy of gladiators. 

Neither am I going to drop trash on the ground, nor start drinking and smoking.

Friend of mine has a GF used to drive back to her village on weekends on her motorbike on a very unsafe road, drunks everywhere and potholes.  He told her he didn't want her to drive on such an accident-prone street.  Her reaction?  "If I die, that's my fate."  I suppose living here means I should take on that same fatalism, too, lest I be seen as trying to impose my own foreign values.

Don't hold your breath.

Hi,very well said I couldn't put it better myself,I've been riding bikes since I was 16 and now at 70 I'm still riding,I've ridden in a lot of countries and enjoyed myself unfortunately riding in Vietnam is no pleasure,bikers throughout the world respect each other if you don't respect another biker then your not a biker and Vietnamese who ride bikes are not bikers they show no respect to other bikers or their pillions(wife's or their children) they have no road manners or  riding skills.
When my son who is a biker/Police officer came to Vietnam on holiday I told him that if he is thinking of riding a bike over here then he should consider having his brain surgically removed then he will be on par with 90% of Vietnamese road users.
I kid you not the Vietnamese are the worst I've ever encountered.

Gritman wrote:

Hi,very well said I couldn't put it better myself,I've been riding bikes since I was 16 and now at 70 I'm still riding,I've ridden in a lot of countries and enjoyed myself unfortunately riding in Vietnam is no pleasure,bikers throughout the world respect each other if you don't respect another biker then your not a biker and Vietnamese who ride bikes are not bikers they show no respect to other bikers or their pillions(wife's or their children) they have no road manners or  riding skills.
When my son who is a biker/Police officer came to Vietnam on holiday I told him that if he is thinking of riding a bike over here then he should consider having his brain surgically removed then he will be on par with 90% of Vietnamese road users.
I kid you not the Vietnamese are the worst I've ever encountered.

Gritman - I said it earlier; your skill riding a bike is inferior to the average Vietnamese but is of no consequence anyway. I also have been riding motorcycles since I was a teenager but in my case I'm only 68. It took me about a year or so to figure out "how it works" here. I used to think exactly as you do but now I understand why they do what they do. Of course we will have a percentage of idiots as we do in the West and here we have hazards (like pushcarts and old women) that we don't have. Put your ego on hold and realize that most teenage girls know how to drive in Saigon better than you; open your mind to learning. A child can operate a crane with 10 minutes of instruction but does that child know how to read a load chart or have the ability to figure out the weight of a load? It takes learning over and above the mechanics of operation. I suspect you are a better motorcyclist than when you were 16. Figuring out how to safely drive in Saigon will make you one of the best in the world - if you want to be.........

I do believe wrote:

Put your ego on hold and realize that most teenage girls know how to drive in Saigon better than you; open your mind to learning.

I'm really trying to be finished with this thread but it would be irresponsible to leave something like this on the floor where someone might step in it.  You pose a serious challenge here as the temptation to respond in the derogatory second person is overwhelming.  I will endeavor to refrain.  You've already Gone There.

Your position here is past indefensible, past illogical, it is, literally insane.

You say that driving in chaotic conditions and with no consideration for others makes for better drivers.  Yes, and the blind makes the best marksmen,  too.  Learning to drive in conditions where one cannot count on others to behave rationally isn't any improvement, it just makes for dead.  The only way to drive safely on Saigon roads is to not drive on them at all, because no amount of care or preparation or caution can overcome the randomly-behaving crazy driver who will plow into you despite all your ... ah, nuts. 

Sorry, I'm afraid I can't regard you seriously anymore.  Gritman has it right.  These people are the worst drivers in the world.  Even based on reported statistics, VN has more road fatalities than just about anywhere outside Uganda.  Yeah, that's the standard we should all aspire to. 

I'd ask you to justify your position but I don't think you can do it.  "There are no rules, get used to it" is just plain sick.

Gritman wrote:

...bikers throughout the world respect each other if you don't respect another biker then your not a biker and Vietnamese who ride bikes are not bikers they show no respect to other bikers or their pillions(wife's or their children) they have no road manners or riding skills.

How anyone can disagree with this defies comprehension.  Selfish, brutish lawlessness cannot possibly be a superior state. One may as well hold savagery as superior to civilization.  Because what you are praising in the driving habits here really is nothing short of savagery.

IDB,the average VN driver is a better driver, now thats the funniest thing I have heard in a long,long time. i just got back from an 8 hour ride up through Bien Hoa,Vinh An,Quang Trung and Binh Son. In that time I saw 3 accidents, nearly got cleaned up by a fool showing off to his gf,pushed off the road by two buses and some trucks. You have the hide to say there is a system to how they drive, well there is, the ignorant,idiotic system. I will put my skills on a bike against theirs, Im pretty confident I will come out in front due to the fact I think, they dont.

I do believe wrote:

Gritman - I said it earlier; your skill riding a bike is inferior to the average Vietnamese but is of no consequence anyway. I also have been riding motorcycles since I was a teenager but in my case I'm only 68. It took me about a year or so to figure out "how it works" here. I used to think exactly as you do but now I understand why they do what they do. Of course we will have a percentage of idiots as we do in the West and here we have hazards (like pushcarts and old women) that we don't have. Put your ego on hold and realize that most teenage girls know how to drive in Saigon better than you; open your mind to learning. A child can operate a crane with 10 minutes of instruction but does that child know how to read a load chart or have the ability to figure out the weight of a load? It takes learning over and above the mechanics of operation. I suspect you are a better motorcyclist than when you were 16. Figuring out how to safely drive in Saigon will make you one of the best in the world - if you want to be.........

What a load of crockshit. Look up the official accident statistics, multiply that by two (to get a more realistic number) and tell me with a straight face that Vietnamese drivers are among the best in the world; I'll put you on the short list for Best Male Performance at the next year's Oscars.

ssuprnova wrote:

Look up the official accident statistics, multiply that by two (to get a more realistic number)

Just some quick back-of-the-envelope calculations based on observation and reports I would say the multiplier is more  like four or five.  And probably several times that number critically injured.

There are rules.  They're not good, and driving while observing them cannot be construed as creating more skilled drivers, that's insulting to the intelligence.

(1) Me first.  I'm in a hurry.  I don't care about anyone else.

(2) If I can't see it behind me or alongside me (because I'm wearing some crap around my face to keep it from darkening in the sun), it doesn't exist.  If a horn behind me sounds like it might be a truck, I'll move to the right but I'll take my sweet time doing it. 

This isn't road courtesy, it's not even a system.  It's more like gladiatoral games.

Better helmets and protective paddings would greatly reduce the fatalities. Nevertheless they ride motorbikes as a neccessity and not for pleasure as we do in the West.

At least car drivers look for motorbikes unlike in Canada they plow through motorcycles. Oh and I learned if an elderly women hits you it is always your fault to pay her medicals local or foreign.

Would it be correct to say that Vietnam is the last great motorcycle culture?
If it is the last bastion of motorcycle dominated transportation,then what is there to compare it with?
We can compare car dominated countries,we can compare public transport dominated countries.

So how can we say if it's bad or good? It can't be compared to anything else on the planet.

I've only been driving over here a short time but the drivers that frustrate the hell out of me are the kamikaze motorbike riders who randomly pull out of a side street on to a busy road.. without the slightest glance behind to see if a vehicle is coming... or a large truck!

jimbream wrote:

Would it be correct to say that Vietnam is the last great motorcycle culture?

To my knowledge, most of South East Asia is motorcycle dominated, right?

Xaviar84 wrote:

I've only been driving over here a short time but the drivers that frustrate the hell out of me are the kamikaze motorbike riders who randomly pull out of a side street on to a busy road.. without the slightest glance behind to see if a vehicle is coming... or a large truck!

There have been three people in this thread who have asserted that this is superior way to drive, that people who drive like that are better drivers than we who look, and that it's our job to adapt to this.  And to accept it as part of living here.

These three people are, in my estimation, not playing with a full deck.

I do ride here albeit very little, and I stay off the streets on the busy times, and I will absolute never get on a motorbike in Saigon, not in that anthill.  I don't want to spin out and break a leg to avoid some idiot who thinks he's invulnerable.  I never rode a motorcycle in the USA because I want to reach the end of the trip with a whole spine.  I reluctantly drive one here.  Slowly, cautiously, and paying attention, even unto using the rear view mirrors.  Imagine that.

milkybunnyHCM wrote:

jimbream wrote:

Would it be correct to say that Vietnam is the last great motorcycle culture?

To my knowledge, most of South East Asia is motorcycle dominated, right?

If you could show me the country or countries that have the same number of bikes on roads as Viet Nam has,
that would be great.

" I couldnt agree with you more "NoTINTPHCMC"

Good Analogy

(I do Believe),or should that not be, I KNOW IT ALL,
I find your remarks amusing
You don't Know me,you have never met me,you know nothing about me only my age and that I've been riding for 54 years,you have NO idea of my riding skills or where I obtained them,you assume that I have never ridden in Saigon,yet you have the arrogance and the audacity to criticize me and tell me that I should come to Saigon to be taught the shills of riding in the city by young teenage girls that you so admire.
I lived in Saigon for over a year with my wife of six years and my 19 year old stepdaughter who had lived in the city for over 10 years'
I would ride with my wife, s'daughter and a bunch of her teenage friends,you know the ones you admire so much all over the city on many occasions,
I lived in Saigon for over a year and rode daily before moving to where I live now,
I have no issues to riding in the city I actually find it a doddle,
As for my riding skills my Vietnamese family and friends that includes all the young teenage girls you know the ones, will tell you I do posses the so called skills of a Vietnamese rider.

  .

Many Vietnamese are selfish, which can be proved by the way they drive!

Don't get me wrong but I'm a Vietnamese and I understand my people! I'd like to share my motto to you: "Drive slowly! Look EVERY possible direction!"

I drive average 50km per day. Some days more, some days less!

Good advice, looking every direction is a must seeing as people dont obey the road rules

Selfish means pushing and weaving and cutting people off.

Driving right in front of truck, that's not selfish, it's stupid.  Major stupid.

Women with faces surrounded by wool to keep their skin light so they have 60° of vision are the very worst.

Mua quan tài đi.

I was going through a small village in Cam My, Dong Nai on Sunday. I came to a small market area and there were two women sitting in the middle of the road having a chat, totally oblivious to what was going on around them. They soon moved when a truck came through and blared his horn, just before they were about to be splattered all over the road and yes, they were both wearing hats pulled down at the sides.

Another tourist dies due to bad driving.

http://www.thanhniennews.com/society/ro … 24893.html

I can imagine whats happened, one bus has parked on the side of the road, instead of slowing down and having a look to see what traffic is coming in the opposite direction, the driver would of just driven around the parked bus. See this all the time, forgotten how many times I have had to head off the road due to these ignorant arseholes.

missmae wrote:

Guys calm down!

That's the Vietnamese way of driving. Here are no rules besides

DRIVE FASTER.

People shooting out of alleys is totally normal. They will not look and it's your responsibility to slow down when you pass a "hem" (alley), crossroad or whatever.

The trick I learned from my local friends and family is to be "Binh Tinh" which means keep calm. Have a clear when u are driving, watch the 45 degrees infront and next to you. Don't look back.

Know your environment and expect those crazy drivers. Avoid being too close to the right side and alleys ...Watch out for people driving the wrong way or on the pavement ...

Don't expect other drivers driving like back home. Worry only about yourself!

It's the ME FIRST ATTITUDE that saves your life... sadly!

Expect the unexpected. Have a cool head. Drive carefully.


P.S:
I got also nearly in some minor accidents where people were pushing me, heading out of the alleys etc ... just keep calm and drive!

I don't find this observation rude or offensive in the slightest unlike others here. A statement of facts, that's all. There are bad drivers everywhere in the world. The sheer volume of motorbikes lends itself to the statistic of more fatalities.  I've lost a few friends over the years through motorbike accidents in the UK and Europe. I think the point missmae was trying to make is that safety is down to the individual. If you ride about like an idiot with no regard for others on the road, chances are you will hurt yourself or others. The trick is to be aware and avoid anything happening to YOU and try not to hit anyone else.
I, like others here have been riding bikes since I was young, doesn't make me better or worse than the average Vietnamese but my awareness and self preservation might be a little keener. Vietnamese people are on bikes from the age of 1 day old, that's the nature of things here. Of course I'd like to see more safety but who am I to impose what I've grown up with on others. all we can do as visitors and expats in this beautiful country is try to make those we love and care about take care and hopefully that will filter down in time.

Interestingly Malaysia and Thailand have a bigger percentage of road fatalities per 100,000 people per year, with Malaysia nearly 6% more than VN. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

The reason there are many law breakers is the lack of enforcement.   Whatever police presence are there to line their own pockets.    If the fines collected actually went to building better roads, installing traffic lights and more traffic cops...but they dont do they.  For all the crazy driving i find the lack of road rage refreshing.   If such lawlessness were applied on western roads are some suggesting  we could police ourselves peacefully? Heres an interesting tidbit ive heard. Police academy charges 30-100,000 US$ fee depending on family status.   Thats just the entrance fee theres no guarantee youll be accepted.   After you graduate you have to pay another fee to placed in the city and district you covet. The more populated the district the higher the fee.  Depending how much you paid a person can pay off the fees in 1-2 years time.

The Long Man wrote:

Interestingly Malaysia and Thailand have a bigger percentage of road fatalities per 100,000 people per year, with Malaysia nearly 6% more than VN. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

Not sure about Thailand but Malaysia has a huge car culture with nice, curvy roads boys love to race on. Key word boys. So I'm not surprised they die in the name of impressing pretty girls.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/world … ous-roads/

Funny enough, Vietnam isn't the worst. So rejoice.

I must admit after 4 years in Vietnam (2 in Hanoi and 2 in Saigon), the state of the traffic and driving skills (or lack thereof) still amazes me. As previous posters have summed it up the driving mentality is basically 1) I am the most important person on the road 2) I must get wherever it is I am going as quickly as possible. 3) Screw everybody else.

Surely there is a mutual benefit in not driving like an idiot; ergo I drive carefully we both stay out of hospital (or worse).  Given in other facets of life the locals always look after number one,  it seems strange that they wouldn’t see this benefit.

To the disbelievers: It's all very well saying "drive carefully" or "pay attention", but when 90% of road users are not as diligent as you, unfortunately your fate is not entirely in your hands. 

However it can be said that the way in which people approach their driving is the way society acts generally, and until this changes the country will remain impoverished. There is a reason Vietnam is an underdeveloped country, and it is not because of lack of suitable resources, land or other geographical reasons!

The Long Man wrote:

Interestingly Malaysia and Thailand have a bigger percentage of road fatalities per 100,000 people per year, with Malaysia nearly 6% more than VN. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

Yes true, but look at the road speeds in Thailand and Malaysia much higher then here. If people want to accept it as the way things are, then thats fine, I still stand by the fact they are ignorant drivers. The woman in Mui Ne who died yesterday was all because the driver didnt slow down to look what was coming ahead, he just drove around the other vehicle on the wrong side and killed her.

colinoscapee wrote:

The Long Man wrote:

Interestingly Malaysia and Thailand have a bigger percentage of road fatalities per 100,000 people per year, with Malaysia nearly 6% more than VN. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

Yes true, but look at the road speeds in Thailand and Malaysia much higher then here. If people want to accept it as the way things are, then thats fine, I still stand by the fact they are ignorant drivers. The woman in Mui Ne who died yesterday was all because the driver didnt slow down to look what was coming ahead, he just drove around the other vehicle on the wrong side and killed her.

That never happens in other countries of course! How about the woman in UK who was busy texting while speeding through a small town, mounted the pavement and killed two babies in a pushchair? Like I said, bad drivers are everywhere, especially young men everywhere. I don't condone any kind of reckless or poor driving but I DO try not to cause accidents myself and that's ALL I can do here. I drive a car as well here and I'm even more cautious when I do. What grieves me is the poorly maintained bikes, bald tyres, no lights etc. All accidents waiting to happen. Drivers are ignorant everywhere as well and if you say they aren't your lying to yourself.

Ok, thats your right of opinion, I just cant agree. The volume of bad driving here is terrible. Do you see people drive this way in the UK, no. Yes everywhere there are bad drivers, but here its just out of control, even the government has acknowledge there is a problem. If your happy with the drivers here, then good, but Im not.

The Long Man is right, the most we can do is drive responsibly ourselves (or not at all), and hope in the future things will change. Certainly griping about it on an expat forum won't change anything, although it's nice to have a vent every now and then.

Speaking of which, an extension of the bad driving is the way people queue for gas here -  another example of everyone for themselves. What does make me laugh is when you are being filled up, then along comes the next guy and parks right up your rear blocking you between the pump and means of exit, then he sort of looks at you funny when you suggest he move so you can get out, as if you are being unreasonable...now compare that to Thailand where everybody queues patiently single file and you start to see where the difference lies…

My main point is my life is in danger with the driving here. I just came back from riding to the beach here in Vung Tau and a taxi came down a main street on the wrong side of the road and pushed everyone off to the pavement. That is the sort of thing that shouldnt be happening, but as usual not a copper in sight, so the taxis just do what they want.

colinoscapee wrote:

My main point is my life is in danger with the driving here. I just came back from riding to the beach here in Vung Tau and a taxi came down a main street on the wrong side of the road and pushed everyone off to the pavement. That is the sort of thing that shouldnt be happening, but as usual not a copper in sight, so the taxis just do what they want.

If only you had been forced into the car lane while not wearing a helmet.
Then the plod would've seen everything!!