Why don't Vietnamese understand Vietnamese spoken by a foreigner?

colinoscapee wrote:

It's mostly used by teens and 20somethings. I doubt an older local would use that language.

Precisely.

And that's one problem (of many) in learning a new language.  We copy the locals because we think that's the way we should speak, while unbeknown to us, the way some locals speak is something we should never immitate if we want to receive welcome and respect.

Ciambella wrote:

Yes, Colin, it's Western-style street talk, directly translated from English while removing the required personal pronouns.  It's fine (even considered hip) between close friends and among a younger crowd, but it's too brusque to be used with strangers or one's parents (especially parents-in-law, for the Westerners who married into Vietnamese families.)

Edit to add: 

Since Vietnamese language emphasizes respect, skipping the needed "I" and "you" is to remove the core of the language.  Instead of "mai gặp lại" (see [presumably you] tomorrow) a better and correct way would have been "gặp lại anh/em ngày mai" (see you again tomorrow) or "mai mình [sẽ] gặp lại" (we'll see [each other] again tomorrow.) 

The removing or adding of one word makes a lot of difference to a sentence.

In Hong Gnu a couple of years ago, my Long Haired Dictionary used to tell me: "Nge Mai Gap Lai"(phonetic spelling) when she used to disappear after work. Her English was generally, mmmmmm only just adequate - but not as bad as a previous interpreter I had, Tony, who once described a 500lb bomb crater in a rice field as a "place for fix racing" - He meant a hole dug for the breeding of fish, which was utter ballcocks.

Ciambella wrote:

Were there fish in the crater?

The crater was in the middle of a rice field of about a kilometre and a half long. Actually there were three craters in a line, two craters were a hundred metres apart, the third crater was about 300 metres from the first crater. All the craters were in a straight line. The locations of the craters  were broadly in line with the US bombing data record of that area.

I deduced a number of things from the location of the craters:
a. It was likely that the craters were the result of a single pass and delivery by an aircraft carrying 4 bombs.
b. It seemed  as if the pilot of the aircraft that delivered the bombs, had dropped them in the rice field rather than on the villages located on slightly higher ground, on either side of the rice field.
c. Again, from the US bombing data record, I found that the bombing took place late in the Vietnam / American war. You can draw your own conclusions from this fact and my opinion at b. above.
d. The fact that the craters were actually bomb craters was confirmed by fragments of bomb case recovered from the crater walls, following a magnetometer search, which were consistent with Mk82 US 500 pound bombs.
e. The fact that the first two craters were roughly 100 metres apart and the third crater was 300 metres distant from the first crater indicates that there was probably a bomb between the second and third crater, which was either:
  * Unexploded, or,
  * Which had exploded deeper underground and had formed a camoflet (cavity), without breaking the      surface and forming a crater.

At the time of my visit the rainy season was just about ended and the rice fields were draining. There was about 20 Cm or less of water in the rice fields and, due to the rainy season, the craters were water filled. People were still fishing - and catching fish - in the rice fields so it is reasonable to assume that there would be fish in the craters too although I didn't see any (but wasn't looking for fish anyway).

Ciambella wrote:

>> 3 men with trollies full of golf bats  <<

Ha.  Even I, an old duck who can't tell the difference between a putter and a brolly stick, know straight away that one would never find a Louisville Slugger on a golf course.

Please either send us the decryption keys or post again in English!

Actually I do know that golf ball striking tools are clubs and not bats, but as an author, I am allowed a little license 

Ciambella wrote:

Thank you for mentioning b and c, Matt.

When I write stuff I try to be as factual as possible and I saw more than a couple of circumstances which led me to similar conclusions about the war here.

Anyway, we have drifted well off subject here so, back to why don't they, etc....

A couple of weeks ago I said chào buổi sáng to a man walking round our estate. I hadn't seen him before and, as I was on my normal morning exercise walk within our compound and because we all greet each other at that time of day, I wished him a good morning.

His response to my greeting was: "Jaa, mup wah" 

Ignorant git!

Ciambella wrote:

My vocab is eclectic, I know.  It's a result of learning English at a tender age from a French speaker.  Plus 20+ years living with an Irish-English who lives and speaks bodysurfing and American sports, especially baseball.  Plus months and months couch surfing (before couch surfing caught on as a modern day cheap lodging) from Manchester to Cornwall.  Plus almost a decade being corrected by all sorts of Europeans who insisted that they spoke the true everyday English.  Plus half a dozen years breathing in the regional dialects from American Southern states.   

My accents are even more confusing.

Maybe I just stick to Vietnamese: Who would say chao buoi sang to a Vietnamese?

Are you saying Chao buoy etc is wrong?

Interestingly, I used to speak German (Hoch Deutsch) with an accent that, on the telephone, led many Germans to suppose that they were taking to a  fellow German - That is until my vocab ran out. But thats because the military German language school I attended was superb and, I had 7 or so German staff working for me at the time.

Here in Vietnam I am teaching my wifes nephew to speak English in the school holidays - from his own school lesson books (I want to kill and eat Champa the bloody sun bear!). He has picked up on my slight Yorkshire accent and pronounces "done" as dun - and has a similar Yorkshire inflection with a few other words now. Which is going to blow his school English teachers mind (I'm convinced she can't speak English at all).

I would love to teach him the Yorkshire dialect "ee, bah 'eck, nahthen, sithee".

Ciambella wrote:

No, it's not wrong, but it's very, very, very formal.  I don't know anyone who has ever said it, except foreigners.  (I edited my last post to include some explanation, at the same time you posted your comment).

A simple "Chào ông" is polite enough, and if he mentions your physique again, use the sentences everyone talked about a couple of days ago, "Cảm ơn ông nhiều lắm. Gặp lại ông ngày mai."  Just for the heck of it.

I bet he'll never be rude to you again.

What I said to him in return was actually a good deal worse. But not for quoting on here 

-JohnD- wrote:

My theory ( confirmed by more than one native) is that when they see a Western face to expect everything that comes out of the pie hole to be English.  In my experience, there are also people who just don't care to try to understand us.

I don't think they don't care to try understand you. ( or if yes, only a few people). I think it's because our habbits: don't try to talk, to give ideas or don't try to join conversations. Please note that our education is different from yours. In our generation and older, we were not encouraged to explain our idea. We use to do as the older told ( or expected to do as adults told instead of trying to give explaination/ ideas. This was happned in families and classes).

For me, it's easier for me to understand a Vietnamese speak English than a foreigners who speak English ( even native speakers) )) . We get similar mistakes in pronouncing  that we can guess when we hear other Vietnamese speaking English.

Lyn-sunflower wrote:

-JohnD- wrote:

My theory ( confirmed by more than one native) is that when they see a Western face to expect everything that comes out of the pie hole to be English.  In my experience, there are also people who just don't care to try to understand us.

I don't think they don't care to try understand you. ( or if yes, only a few people). I think it's because our habbits: don't try to talk, to give ideas or don't try to join conversations. Please note that our education is different from yours. In our generation and older, we were not encouraged to explain our idea. We use to do as the older told ( or expected to do as adults told instead of trying to give explaination/ ideas. This was happned in families and classes).

For me, it's easier for me to understand a Vietnamese speak English than a foreigners who speak English ( even native speakers) )) . We get similar mistakes in pronouncing  that we can guess when we hear other Vietnamese speaking English.

As someone in my 70's and whose experience in Vietnam goes back to 1969, I compliment you for making your excellent point about respect paid to elders. As the closest thing my wife's family had to a family patriarch was her Grandmother, I sort of inherited that position when her Grandmother died in 1975. Definitely an interesting and educational experience.

I do believe wrote:

I think there is a bit of masochism in me as I just realized I enjoy the constant war of comprehension.

I speak pure Vietnamese with correct grammar and precise vocab.  One of these days, we should meet.  You'll buy my husband a cà phê sữa nóng and me a plate of bánh cuốn, and I'll guide you through the nuances of a very twisted language (anyone who's brave enough to try explaining his dental problem in Vietnamese deserves my help.)  After that, if people still not understand, you can be very assured that the problem is theirs, not yours. 

@ all lurkers: This is not an advert for free tutoring/exchanging language job, so please do not send me requests for contact. 

Ciambella wrote:

"Buoi"?  Somebody's teaching you slangs.

I'm very good with fruits, starting with "chanh", "cam" and "buoi" ;-)

Ciambella wrote:

"Buoi"?  Somebody's teaching you slangs.

He may know that slang and know well what does this sentence mean. As he said, he forcus on bad words

I do believe wrote:

By the way, why did you make up an improper abbreviation of the word, "vocabulary?" That is not precise English let alone necessary.

Cheers

Sorry about that.  I was typing the post while being in Hangouts with daughter in the States.  Since she typed over 120 wps while I hadn't been able to place more than 4 fingers on the keyboard at the same time, I had to shorten some words when she and I "talked", and ended up carrying that to my post.  I don't usually go beyond the more often used words such as vocab, morn, diff, oft, K, info, etc..  I would never be lazy enough to use U, lite, nite, donuts, B4, cuz, or Xmas.

I do believe wrote:

One of my friends said to me in Vietnamese, "đợi" and got quite exasperated with me because I didn't recognize, "chờ đợi."

In this case, it's not a short form because "đợi" and "chờ" mean the exact same thing, and you can use either, both, or switch the order: chờ đợi =  đợi chờ = chờ = đợi. 

There are quite a few similar cases in Vietnamese.  At the top of my head: 

Ngóng trông (look forward to, expect) = trông ngóng =  ngóng ; all of them mean the exact same thing.  However, "trông" by itself means see or look after.

If you use one word from each term, you'll have "trông đợi" or "ngóng đợi", or "trông chờ", or  "mong chờ", or "chờ mong", or "trông mong", all of them mean expect, because "mong" means hope, and because when you add "trông" with a word that means waiting (chờ, đợi) , you add intensity to the action.

That's one of the many nuances of the language.

Ciambella wrote:

I do believe wrote:

By the way, why did you make up an improper abbreviation of the word, "vocabulary?" That is not precise English let alone necessary.

Cheers

Sorry about that.  I was typing the post while being in Hangouts with daughter in the States.  Since she typed over 120 wps while I hadn't been able to place more than 4 fingers on the keyboard at the same time, I had to shorten some words when she and I "talked", and ended up carrying that to my post.  I don't usually go beyond the more often used words such as vocab, morn, diff, oft, K, info, etc..  I would never be lazy enough to use U, lite, nite, donuts, B4, cuz, or Xmas.

Lolz 

Lyn-sunflower wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

"Buoi"?  Somebody's teaching you slangs.

He may know that slang and know well what does this sentence mean. As he said, he forcus on bad words

If you knew how bad I can get with some words you'd be traumatized, I use the "fruits" and bird slangs only when trying to restrain myself, but this year I'll try to focus on learning casual conversation stuff :-D

Ciambella wrote:

I do believe wrote:

One of my friends said to me in Vietnamese, "đợi" and got quite exasperated with me because I didn't recognize, "chờ đợi."

In this case, it's not a short form because "đợi" and "chờ" mean the exact same thing, and you can use either, both, or switch the order: chờ đợi =  đợi chờ = chờ = đợi. 

There are quite a few similar cases in Vietnamese.  At the top of my head: 

Ngóng trông (look forward to, expect) = trông ngóng =  ngóng ; all of them mean the exact same thing.  However, "trông" by itself means see or look after.

If you use one word from each term, you'll have "trông đợi" or "ngóng đợi", or "trông chờ", or  "mong chờ", or "chờ mong", or "trông mong", all of them mean expect, because "mong" means hope, and because when you add "trông" with a word that means waiting (chờ, đợi) , you add intensity to the action.

That's one of the many nuances of the language.

Thanks - good information

Ciambella wrote:

I do believe wrote:

By the way, why did you make up an improper abbreviation of the word, "vocabulary?" That is not precise English let alone necessary.

Cheers

Sorry about that.  I was typing the post while being in Hangouts with daughter in the States.  Since she typed over 120 wps while I hadn't been able to place more than 4 fingers on the keyboard at the same time, I had to shorten some words when she and I "talked", and ended up carrying that to my post.  I don't usually go beyond the more often used words such as vocab, morn, diff, oft, K, info, etc..  I would never be lazy enough to use U, lite, nite, donuts, B4, cuz, or Xmas.

WHAT! Those are great abbreviations! Now when I use "np" for NO PROBLEM, "b4" for BEFORE or "2" for TO" or "4get" for FORGET, "r" for ARE or "b" for BE, I might lose some. E.G., "2 b or not 2 b, that's the question. R u ok w/ that"