Writing proper English

abthree wrote:

Well said, Gordon. I'm certainly not here to take anyone to task for the quality of their English expression.  But, for those who want to make a living, or even just earn some extra money, teaching English, it's well to remember the saying, "you don't get a second chance to make a first impression."  If your written work is the first impression that potential students have of you, then it's worthwhile to make it as correct as possible.

That's a very good point, ab - well worth making.

Fred wrote:

Many native speakers of English and Americans make mistakes as well.

Many native speakers would fail in a TOEFL (Test Of English as a Foreign Language), I was told (in private) by one of the evaluators - that’s why none of them is allowed to attend the test!

Khalida.UNC wrote:

Proper English according to whom? British English and American English can be dissimilar in grammar, vocabulary, and ...

Most of Khalida's post deals with spoken English, whereas my focus was on written. So I've blanked out the irrelevant part and am answering only the relevant bit. There really isn't much difference between British and American, in each variety of written English. Some spellings, some punctuation, a few words. Each variety has its "proper" version, and those who use their respective proper versions generally understand the other. I think Khalida may be looking for controversy where it's not warranted.

beppi wrote:

Fred wrote:

Many native speakers of English and Americans make mistakes as well.

Many native speakers would fail in a TOEFL (Test Of English as a Foreign Language), I was told (in private) by one of the evaluators - that’s why none of them is allowed to attend the test!

I loathe writing anything serious with a passion, that probably coming from an extremely boring set of English lessons delivered by my extremely boring grammar school English teacher.
Boring commonly equates to ineffective and many English courses are boring so way too many bright students end up with lousy English language skills because the course and/or their teachers were rubbish, not because the student is incapable.
On a personal note, my grammar is generally weak and I left school thinking English literature was pointless tripe, but the truth is very different. It turns out I love classic novels and love Shakespeare even more, that just proving my English teacher of the time was worse than useless, she actually made her subject into something to hate. That's criminal.
I, because I became an accidental DJ, found I had a passion for the spoken word and eventually, after lots of time on stage as an M/C at shows and events, developed ways of engaging an audience, that coming from observing top quality presenters and, just as importantly, watching total dross failing in epic fashion in front of a crowd.
The same applies to the written word - read some total rubbish in order to see other people's mistakes, then use that to develop a prose style that grips your reader.

However, save a few grammar nazis that get really shirty about a misplaced comma or a couple of spelling mistakes, most errors on forums are unimportant.

Gordon Barlow wrote:

There really isn't much difference between British and American, in each variety of written English. Some spellings, some punctuation, a few words.

The punctuation that annoys me most in American English (punctuation-nazi alert, Fred!) is the omission of necessary hyphens. The bad habit has reached many parts of the world - including my home of Grand Cayman, a British colony in the Caribbean. In this "offshore" tax-haven, our newspaper-headlines often have occasion to write of high-tax countries' anti-money-laundering legislation. Almost always they refer to it as "anti-money laundering legislation". Now the referenced legislation is not in fact anti-money, and it is incorrect to claim that it is. I would accept "... anti money-laundering", just, but the writers apparently consider it to be bad English to recognise "anti" as a word in its own right. What they should do - if that's the case - is to write "anti-money-laundering" [legislation]. But two hyphens in the same complex word is reckoned to be far beyond the pale.

So. What does the team think?

abthree wrote:

That IS often a nit ... but you're right,  and it annoys me, too.   
The use of an apostrophe to indicate a plural, on the other hand, does much more than simply annoy.

Agreed. And there's worse: I saw the word "his" written with an apostrophe before the -s- just last week!

Gordon Barlow wrote:

abthree wrote:

That IS often a nit ... but you're right,  and it annoys me, too.   
The use of an apostrophe to indicate a plural, on the other hand, does much more than simply annoy.

Agreed. And there's worse: I saw the word "his" written with an apostrophe before the -s- just last week!

ME - A grammar Nazi?

Jan700 wrote:

Children always prefer to speak language of their mother. That's why we have a word mother tongue and nothing like father tongue.

This is not true: In my experience, kids prefer to speak the language of their surroundings, regardless of the mother.
My daughter lived in Sungapore until 3.5 years old and spoke English well (for her age), plus some Chinese, although we spoke German at home. When we moved to Germany, we switched to English at home, but she quickly picked up German (mostly frim kindergarten) and after a few months refused to speak anything else, although her mother is more comfortable in Chinese and English.
Today, 10 years old, she overcame her aversion to English (since we bought her favourite Harry Potter books only in English) and understands Chinese but does not speak it. Her main language remains German, the father’s tongue, although we never talk with her in it.

Gordon Barlow wrote:

I think Khalida may be looking for controversy where it's not warranted.

I assumed you wanted a discussion from more than only a select few on the topic you created. I apologize for my mistake. It will not happen again.

Khalida.UNC wrote:

I assumed you wanted a discussion from more than only a select few on the topic you created. I apologize for my mistake. It will not happen again.

Khalida. It's a free world: you can post what you like where you like! I started this thread to focus on written English as opposed to spoken English, because it's the written version that is pretty much standard throughout the world - and it's the version that foreigners have the most trouble with. Spoken English - as you said - varies wildly, with "y'all" and "all y'all" and "you-uns" and "yous" being acceptable in various parts of the world. Here in the Caribbean the word "unna" can indicate "we" or "everybody"; God knows where that comes from: maybe it's not even English at all, but some African language. Sometimes those variants are written, but they're not proper English by any stretch.

HelpyDandy wrote:

Hello guys, it's pretty interesting to read your discussion about writing in English! What do you think, is it worth trying to enhance my writing skills with the help of an online teacher? Online tutoring platforms like https://www.wyzant.com, https://www.etutorworld.com, https://eurekly.com, etc. are getting more and more widespread nowadays but does this method of teaching really work? I suppose my prospective teacher will be able to explain to me the basics of writing in an online conversation, will read my essays sent via email and then comment on them, but maybe I'm wrong and there are some traps and pitfalls on that way…?

Judging by your post, your English is pretty good already. You wrote what I call "casual English" at a high standard, and that's plenty good enough for posts on this website; I'm doing it myself now, as you can see. But I'm guessing that you could write 100% "proper" English if you had to, so I don't really think a formal online-course would do much for you.

The best thing for anybody wanting to write better, would be to quote something and ask what's wrong with it. Or ask what's right with it and why! One or other of your fellow-posters will tell you, and you can argue about it on the thread. How does that sound?

Gordon Barlow wrote:

Does it really matter? Well, when it's on an English-language website, yes it does.

I would be tempted to go with, "Maybe".
As long as the sentences are easily understood, there's little else to worry about. However, a poorly constructed sentence due to weak English skills could lead to misunderstandings.

beppi wrote:

HelpyDandy: The linguistc quality of your post speaks against the service you are advertising.

It's an essay cheating site so a really bad idea to use, or even have on the forum.