Thoughts on UBER (Brazil)

03/16/22

We use Ubers to go everywhere, just as when traveling, we use AirB&Bs everywhere, and have pretty much stopped using hotels. 

In both cases, I assume that the person providing the service is an autonomous adult exercising his/her personal agency, and sees the transaction as a win/win.  In both cases we treat the person providing the service as doing us a favor, and the encounters are cordial on both sides.

Being in a small city we only use uber when flying out of IGU, Parking at the airport cost $$$. We also give our housekeeper an allowance for uber. If raining there is no standing waiting for a bus or if she needs to take her mother somewhere or just keep the money. (She does not drive)
Uber only began a few years ago here. Since bus strikes occur (Over the last 2 months it happen twice) uber is widely used. If I get one more "ding" on my door, I may use uber! 

I only use Uber when we travel somewhere without a car or plan on drinking, otherwise I use my own car.

I do think the money they are making as an Uber driver is insultingly low. Often you can see a new job popping up on their phone for a R$9 fare!

I always tip though, and always at least R$20 regardless if the trip costs less, and more for longer trips as well. The numbers I see on the drivers profiles are insane, like 20k+ trips in 2 years or something.

We used Uber but the Uber driver then became like a driver without Uber for our entire extended family .thus at least with us limiting Ubers “exploitation” and increasing her earnings. Either way both her driving us around with or without Uber is really cheap compared to Uber prices in USA .

Most of the Uber drivers have rigged their cars to accept natural gas. This brings down the fuel costs substantially. Still exploitative but nearly as bad.

I think English Penguin hss the answer. We all recognize that Uber drivers are making a pittance. Yes, they "choose" to drive for Uber, but maybe it is their only choice, not necessarily a good choice. Unless you have a bad experience (very rare) it is kind to ALWAYS  tip the driver. Sure, sometimes  R$10 or R$20 is more than the fare itself, but I get a delightful little jolt of joy when the driver's face lights up at receiving a tip. And for me it is less than the cost of a coffee.

I also use Uber all the time while in Brazil. I agree that Uber drivers in Brazil are underpaid but there is another application, it's called 99 it is Chinese owned, they pay to their drivers even less than Uber.

The same thing with food deliveries (iFood, Rappi, UberEats etc.) they pay to their delivery drivers even less than the Chinese 99 pays to their (taxi) drivers.

There is a stiff competition among ride-hailing apps, food delivery apps in Brazil, the one who offers the lowest price to customer wins and apps cut the cost by paying less to the driver.

03/16/22

We've tried the other apps, and used to ask the drivers which one they preferred.  The answer was always Uber; they only went with the alternate when no Uber ride was available.  They were particularly down on 99.  So we got the message and stuck with Uber.

we prefer mototaxi ....they raised the price since last year, to go into town, from 5 reais to 7 .....  or they charge the same price to transport 8 bags of groceries ....

The Uber industry as it is working now is an insult to human rights...
price in brazil are absurdly low, which makes it impossible to do a living, except maybe if you work 24/7...

when abthree says that he ses it as a win win situation, i want to puke... typical usa capitalist jungle law... no, it is definitly a win lose situation...
in your calculation Kurterino, you mention that you did 90 km with the Uber... imagine you end up in the half deserted country side, and that the Uber driver do not find a customer to come back, then he will absolutely not win anything from the ride...

this is really stupid, because it could be so simple to raise the Uber price a little!! people would still be happy to pay less that for a taxi, the uber would be happy to earn a bit more, and the taxi would see less competition...

in the meantime, i agree that the good move is to tip...

cheers!

I use 99 because I hate Uber. You can choose legit taxis if desired there. I haven't used it in a while but think cabify might too and in Brazil these predate Uber. 99 is also consistently cheaper than Uber fwiw

I too am an Uber kind of guy. Conventional taxis have never attempted to provide customer service, and rarely can they be trusted to take the direct, or fastest route, (they do love roads with heavy traffic and lots of stop lights). Most of the time you have to walk to taxi stands, be on the right side of the street, at different times of the day, they are not where you want them to be, and few have calling services. Taxi companies have had many decades to develop and improve customer service, but the made the choice not to. Uber brought personal transportation into the 21st century. Yes, I too always tip them, and yes, I too have couple of phone numbers for my regular drivers.

Thanks for starting this interesting thread Kurterino. If you use Uber most anywhere you also know that without tips these drivers barely get by plus Uber services basically pull the plug on other established businesses (regardless of their good/bad qualities). It sort of reminds me of when Walmart came to small-town-America. Family businesses went belly-up.

AirBnB is quite similar except that it forces people (usually elderly) on fixed incomes to leave behind their life-time homes that their landlords or other investors turn into profit mills. Venice and Porto are prime examples.

I'm not proposing any solution here but do suggest folks take a look at corporate profits at Uber and low-income displacement in popular urban centers when traveling.

Do I use them? Yes... In a cautious manner. If it seems like the provider benefits or there are few alternatives. I always choose taxis and stay in private small lodging when possible.

03/18/22

Far be it from me to discourage anyone from being generous.  Just bear in mind that this is not a tipping culture, so chances are that the message that you think you're sending is not the one being received.  That the gesture may be misunderstood doesn't mean that it shouldn't be made, though, nor that the extra money won't be appreciated.

ab3 is correct.
I recall when I first move here and had work done on the house, two of the three contractors look confused when I include a gorjeta. If they do a good job and clean up after, I want them to remember me the next time I call. (It works)
Almost daily I get that "confusing look"   from those who give us good service or quality of work.

So . . . I think you are saying we can all take part in helping a positive (generously sharing) evolution in Brazilian culture. I hate when my "tip" is automatically added to my restaurant bill. This prevents me from making a choice to reward my servers. I thoroughly enjoy typing at Paderias and such as it is not expected, but is a genuine way to say obrigado.

03-18-22

Drjmagic wrote:

So . . . I think you are saying we can all take part in helping a positive (generously sharing) evolution in Brazilian culture.

No, that's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying.  The assumption that the culture of the Global North is in any way superior to or has something to teach Brazilian culture is transparently arrogant, and always -- ALWAYS -- taken that way.  Brazilians are too courteous to usually show it, but no one should fool themselves on that score.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with personal generosity.  It will probably be read by the prevailing cultural norm, which is one of patron and client, but while I'm sure that's not the intention, it's still kind, and the money will doubtless help.

Clearly I didn't explain myself well.

I was NOT referring to anything "Global North". In my opinion, "Global North" has much to learn from Brazil. I am referring to the practice of sharing my abundance with people who are getting little compensation for a lot of work (Uber drivers and waiters/waitresses, in this case.)

From my very limited experience in Brazil - and please correct me if I'm wrong - tipping the "little guys" is not a common practice in Brazil.

There are 2 reasons I tip. I hope to help, in a small way, the under compensated worker. But more importantly, I hope that my Brazilian girlfriend and her daughter's (all who are very kind and generous but non-tipping people) will consider tipping as a way to express their kindness and generosity.

03/18/22

Drjmagic wrote:

From my very limited experience in Brazil ... tipping the "little guys" is not a common practice in Brazil.

There are 2 reasons I tip. I hope to help, in a small way, the under compensated worker. But more importantly, I hope that my Brazilian girlfriend and her daughter's (all who are very kind and generous but non-tipping people) will consider tipping as a way to express their kindness and generosity.

Excellent points, Drjmagic -- thanks. 

You're right:   tipping is not common practice in Brazil.  A transaction of equals in Brazil consists of one person quoting a price for a good or a service, the other person either accepting or bargaining. and the transaction going forward and being completed at the agreed price. 

In North America, we generally read a tip as a sign of solidarity, confirming our equality.  Not so here. A transaction that involves an additional gift is quite common, too, but assumed to fall into the patron/client structure, which goes back to Roman times in this culture.  The gift always goes from the social superior to the social inferior; in fact, the offering is often taken as an assertion of social superiority. 

Foreigners are often automatically assigned by Brazilians to a higher social class -- if a traditional Brazilian of a certain age has ever addressed you as "Mestre", that's what was happening.  (Foreigners are also often considered to be loose with their money, less intelligent than Brazilians, and more easily bamboozled -- it's well not to think too much about this particular stereotype, but not to forget it either.)   Tips fall easily into this patron/client model, and it's so ingrained that you'll never convince the recipient otherwise.  The reaction is often ambiguous.  If you remember how the old Harry Chapin song, "Taxi" ends, when his old lover gives him a $20 tip, he says, "another man might have been angry, and another man might have been hurt, but another man never would have let her go.  I stuffed the bill in my shirt."  That's a very Brazilian outlook, in English words.  It could be better described as "appreciation" than as "gratitude".

The fact that the recipients will never understand what you're doing, though, doesn't mean that your girlfriend and her daughters won't -- but you have to tell them.  If you do, they'll understand, and maybe do likewise.  If you don't they, like the recipients, may just assume that you're practicing some kind of noblesse oblige, or just throwing money away, as foreigners inexplicably do.

Super interesting , Abthree.

Funny how complicated some simple things can actually be

Super interesting , Abthree.

Funny how complicated some simple things can actually be

I like uber and 99 as a close alternative. Taxis in RJ have enjoyed a monopoly for decades. Uber was a kick in their ass to clean/repair their shitty cars and improve on manners. Uber Black is best. 99 is cheaper but their Cars are not as good as uber.

90% of all taxis in Rio are indirectly connected to or have access to the mafia or drug dealers. If you mess with a taxi - your fault or not - you could be in a world of hurt.

Also, uber vehicles are all documented on the app; plates #, name, etc.

bahiametisse wrote:

no, it is definitly a win lose situation...
in your calculation Kurterino, you mention that you did 90 km with the Uber... imagine you end up in the half deserted country side, and that the Uber driver do not find a customer to come back, then he will absolutely not win anything from the ride...

in the meantime, i agree that the good move is to tip...

cheers!

Even though my ride ended in Salvador, I doubt that he made any money, even without being ‘stranded' somewhere way out. Most people, even though they own cars themselves, don't know how much maintenance goes into operating a cab. Especially since most cabs drive 95% of their mileage on city streets, that will wear down everything a lot faster. Also the added weight (passengers and luggage) doesn't help.
So that's my problem with Uber, I can't see how they are able to operate, other than pushing their drivers into debt, or even bankruptcy (and then recruit new ones). And this can take years, I'm sure the drivers feel they are making money, until the big repair bills start coming, and it's time for a new car.
I don't have a solution, other than tipping, which is merely a band aid, but I think it's important to be conscious about it.

abthree wrote:

03/16/22

We use Ubers to go everywhere, just as when traveling, we use AirB&Bs everywhere, and have pretty much stopped using hotels. 

In both cases, I assume that the person providing the service is an autonomous adult exercising his/her personal agency, and sees the transaction as a win/win.  In both cases we treat the person providing the service as doing us a favor, and the encounters are cordial on both sides.

I could see myself using AirBnB, there are plenty of countries where hotels are just really expensive (for example in Switzerland, regular hotels start at about 80 US$ per night. Sure you can find cheaper rooms, but most rooms in the cities will be more than that).
However, I hate AirBnB with a passion (lol) in countries where you have a huge choice of reasonably priced hotels, that are totally fine (hygiene, service, location…). Examples would be countries like Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia: in all of these countries, you can get a very decent room for 30US$ a night, or much less, if you're on a budget and don't mind something a little less ‘polished', but still totally ok. Granted, a lot of these places aren't on TripAdvisor, and don't even have a website, but they're not hard to find. In my mind, whoever uses AirBnB in these countries, helps destroying a lot of family run businesses.

03/18/22

Kurterino wrote:

However, I hate AirBnB with a passion (lol) in countries where you have a huge choice of reasonably priced hotels, that are totally fine (hygiene, service, location…). Examples would be countries like Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia: in all of these countries, you can get a very decent room for 30US$ a night, or much less, if you're on a budget and don't mind something a little less ‘polished', but still totally ok. Granted, a lot of these places aren't on TripAdvisor, and don't even have a website, but they're not hard to find. In my mind, whoever uses AirBnB in these countries, helps destroying a lot of family run businesses.

I never travel in those countries, so I'm not sure whether I'd use AirB&B or not; given where and how my husband and I live, I doubt that I'll ever be faced with that choice.

You're not the first person I've run into who "hates AirB&B with a passion", because of something "in my mind".  I hate Apple mostly on the same basis, so I can't be TOO critical.   

I'm pretty unsentimental about "family run businesses" being destroyed by somebody with a better value proposition.  I'm old enough to remember people complaining about all the "family run diners" being run out of business by McDonald's in the US.  For every little gem of a place that went under, so did twenty or thirty unsanitary hellholes.  Boring standardized, but sanitary food replacing food poisoning Russian roulette?  I'm good with that.

abthree wrote:

03/18/22

Kurterino wrote:

However, I hate AirBnB with a passion (lol) in countries where you have a huge choice of reasonably priced hotels, that are totally fine (hygiene, service, location…). Examples would be countries like Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia: in all of these countries, you can get a very decent room for 30US$ a night, or much less, if you're on a budget and don't mind something a little less ‘polished', but still totally ok. Granted, a lot of these places aren't on TripAdvisor, and don't even have a website, but they're not hard to find. In my mind, whoever uses AirBnB in these countries, helps destroying a lot of family run businesses.

I never travel in those countries, so I'm not sure whether I'd use AirB&B or not; given where and how my husband and I live, I doubt that I'll ever be faced with that choice.

You're not the first person I've run into who "hates AirB&B with a passion", because of something "in my mind".  I hate Apple mostly on the same basis, so I can't be TOO critical.   

I'm pretty unsentimental about "family run businesses" being destroyed by somebody with a better value proposition.  I'm old enough to remember people complaining about all the "family run diners" being run out of business by McDonald's in the US.  For every little gem of a place that went under, so did twenty or thirty unsanitary hellholes.  Boring standardized, but sanitary food replacing food poisoning Russian roulette?  I'm good with that.

I hate apple for pretty specific reasons , all of which are aligned with unknown sources viewing your data constantly. However in regards to Uber. Recently Uber closed restaurant delivery in Brasil apparently. Just cornerstore nonsense. Between taxis and ubers. The people I get on uber are more professional. Taxis I think out of the hundreds that I've taken or my wife. We find at least where we are there is issues where taxis will say where we live is too dangerous. Tell me I should live in the rich area where crime is actually rampant and complain the entire ride. As they face no form of scoring system. No penalty for bad behaviors lol. Again not saying it's the case with all taxis just specific to where we are.


In regards to Uber. Always tip in cash. I really don't trust the platform enough for them to actually pay them without taking some kind of fee. Ubers always good in the aspect of if someone doesn't want to drive to where we live they can just cancel out and get someone who needs money. I gave a guy his first good tip. Guy nearly cried. Small things you can do on a per person basis's will always do wonders over time.

You all have made me glad I live in Foz. Taxis and Uber are clean and very happy drivers. Now is it because we are the #2 tourist destination and small, maybe so.
Taxis go out of their way to help tourists, whether it be helping cross borders (Customs and Immigrations), places to dine, or even flat rates to take you to the Falls and back to hotels, or crossing from BR to AR.
Uber is the same except crossing the borders. One must have a license to cross a border (was negotiated by transportation agencies of all countries) and just not economical for an Uber driver to cross return empty.

abthree wrote:

03/18/22
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I'm pretty unsentimental about "family run businesses" being destroyed by somebody with a better value proposition.  I'm old enough to remember people complaining about all the "family run diners" being run out of business by McDonald's in the US.  For every little gem of a place that went under, so did twenty or thirty unsanitary hellholes.  Boring standardized, but sanitary food replacing food poisoning Russian roulette?  I'm good with that.

I'm not sentimental about it, but I see it as something that will ultimately result in less choices, less convenience and overall it's going to be more difficult and more expensive to travel in a certain way. For instance if you do a road trip, it's so liberating if you can choose spontaneously where you sleep, depending on how far you want to drive that day, or if you had a breakdown or something. And driving through an unknown town and checking out the different areas before settling on a place is a totally different way of traveling, compared to reserving a room from your smartphone.
Im not saying one is better than the other, I just appreciate having the choice, and I'm not sure how many low cost hotels will still be around in a few years…

abthree wrote:

03/18/22

I never travel in those countries, so I'm not sure whether I'd use AirB&B or not; given where and how my husband and I live, I doubt that I'll ever be faced with that choice.

You're not the first person I've run into who "hates AirB&B with a passion", because of something "in my mind".  I hate Apple mostly on the same basis, so I can't be TOO critical.   

I'm pretty unsentimental about "family run businesses" being destroyed by somebody with a better value proposition.  I'm old enough to remember people complaining about all the "family run diners" being run out of business by McDonald's in the US.  For every little gem of a place that went under, so did twenty or thirty unsanitary hellholes.  Boring standardized, but sanitary food replacing food poisoning Russian roulette?  I'm good with that.

One more thing:
do you think the sanitary conditions have gotten better thanks to the large food chains? How so? Here's my take : I'm sure other countries have similar institutions, for example in Switzerland there's a food inspector (or something), and they are visiting restaurants and other food establishments unannounced, and I'm pretty sure they aren't ‘toothless'. I don't see how food chains have raised the standards, if anything they have the means to bribe themselves out of problems. Disclaimer:  personally I have no quarrel about eating there, I sometimes do it myself, even though much less frequently the older I get …

03/19/22

Kurterino,

I'm sure that you're the last person who needs to be told that nobody's sanitary conditions are comparable to Switzerland's.  I would never expect the food inspection system there to be "toothless" -- very, very far from it.  That's a standard of comparison which any other country would have trouble meeting.

abthree wrote:

03/19/22

Kurterino,

I'm sure that you're the last person who needs to be told that nobody's sanitary conditions are comparable to Switzerland's.  I would never expect the food inspection system there to be "toothless" -- very, very far from it.  That's a standard of comparison which any other country would have trouble meeting.

That might be true, even though there are plenty of other countries with similar standards. After all, it's a matter of public health and important for the tourism industry.
But my original question was if you think that large food chains have raised sanitary standards? I'm not sure they have, and would love to hear your reasoning

03/19/22

Kurterino wrote:

But my original question was if you think that large food chains have raised sanitary standards? I'm not sure they have, and would love to hear your reasoning

In comparison to what was there before?  Not a doubt in my mind.

95% of all Taxi drivers in Brasil have connections to bad people, mafia, drug dealers, etc.

Xpat-Forever wrote:

95% of all Taxi drivers in Brasil have connections to bad people, mafia, drug dealers, etc.

???. 95% in Foz? Where are the studies and facts?

Texanbrazil wrote:

Xpat-Forever wrote:

95% of all Taxi drivers in Brasil have connections to bad people, mafia, drug dealers, etc.

???. 95% in Foz? Where are the studies and facts?

I am referring to Rio de Janeiro.

My experience with  Licensed Taxicab Drivers in Sao Paulo is nothing short of outstanding. Never been taken for a ride, and cabfares here, comparing to the US, are a bargain. 

I had taken ,through others, on a shared ride, Uber, and by and large a huge disapointment. 

The thing you must know is that a Taxicab license, much like an US Medallion, is a public concession to which driver operators or fleet operators, pay for. They are beholden to the license, and having paid for it, means they are less than likely to engage in any monkey business. 

It's like being a franchisee.  You mess with the franchisor, your right to operate is suspended.

Also, in Sao Paulo....

1.Taxicabs can ride on the fast bus lane, Uber drivers can't
2. Licensed Driver Operators can purchase a new vehicle a much lower prices than your average retail buyers ( car must be ordered through the dealership to the manufacturer on spec ).
3.Driver's are liable to maintain proof of insurance, annual vehicle safety checks, and there is a cap limit on vehicle age. 
4.Meter rates are regulated., There is no dual tiered rates in the cab business. Maybe a nightfall rate. Uber rates change at will.

Uber is highly unregulated.  I have heard many cases of gun point robbery and rape attemps by Uber Drivers. 

The heralded savings you get from one to another are not worth the risk.

Get a reliable taxicab driver or drivers, and flag the rest.  Most of them either have many years on the trade or are retirees.   Uber drivers are mostly moonlighters.

03/21/22
We've ridden with both Ubers and licensed taxis in Manaus, São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Belo Horizonte, Fortaleza, and Foz do Iguaçu, and I can honestly say that the experience with both has been uniformly good.  The only service with which we had a bad experience was 99, so we don't use it.  We tried Garupa, but the drivers there recommended Uber.

We don't have a car, and Uber is our ride of choice.   Uber drivers in Manaus seem to have informally standardized on small Fiats as their preferred vehicle,  which makes sense from an operating cost viewpoint.  Sometimes, they're just too small and cramped, although usually we just improvise.

As I've mentioned in other threads, we have a serious and worsening shortage of coins and small bills in Manaus, and Uber Cash has turned out to be extremely popular with the drivers.   Their relief at not having to make change is so obvious that now we tell them up front, so they don't have to worry about it during the ride.

sprealestatebroker wrote:

Uber is highly unregulated.  I have heard many cases of gun point robbery and rape attemps by Uber Drivers.

Yes I've heard some stories too, but there are also plenty of such stories happening with licensed cabs. Also, in most cities it takes probably a lot more to lose a taxi license, than getting banned by Uber. But since we don't know the numbers, it's mostly speculation anyway. It's just that I don't think you're necessarily safer by using licensed cabs only.
While I don't necessarily disagree with your other points, I think it's a very one-sided view. For example you didn't mention the rating system at Uber, licensed cabs don't have that.