Why did you choose to live in Costa Rica over Panama?

In my opinion, you get what you pay for.   I would ignore IL's recommendations because they tend to assume that all the places they recommend are safe.   Also, they rate the cost of living too highly.  Would you really move to a country because you can get discounted movie tickets?

Panama's murder rate is almost double that of Costa Rica's.  Also, I've never visited Panama, but I've heard that Panamanians are not as friendly as Ticos, and are not happy as you might think that Americans are basically occupying their country.  I find Ticos very welcoming, particularly in Guanacaste, where people tend to be very rural and probably more trusting.  Of course, if a modern city and high-rise living is your thing, you won't find that in Costa Rica.  The important thing is to visit any country you're thinking of moving to yourself.

Thewizz, I owe you. All I knew about Panama is that, judging from photos....it looks like a big city! I knew nothing about the crime/murder rate nor the sensibility of the native population which is so important and especially important to me, something of a foreigner in her own country. All my closest friends are from China or Taiwan or Poland or Denmark or Germany. You made a good point about movies. Remember when Unbroken came out, 2014 (great film based on great book)? I had to see it so I went to see it. On the way I thought back to the film I had seen  before that and I figured it was the Bob Dylan biopic I'm Not There. When I got home I looked it up. It had come out in 2007. Seven years before. Half-price tickets don't have much appeal.

Only after I read this author's remarks did I begin to question cost of living. Now I think I get it. Two, maybe three times in the check-out line the clerk has said something interesting to me: Wow, you did really well.I understood what she meant, and I guess she was surprised. Because I don't buy frozen stuff in boxes or the big end stuff. The 99 cent pasta is the same as the $2.99 pasta. Etc.

In China, I never saw a Chinese anything but warm and friendly and patient towards Americans. I often thought, I wonder how I would be if the situation were reversed. I like what you say about Tico/a warmth. That dynamic is more important than most anything because expats are guests.

I just read through some of the comments in the expat/Panama forum.  From what I could see, the consensus seems to be that it's very expensive, government paperwork is even worse than Costa Rica but generally safe.  There are some good price comparisons there.

I think to relocate to any country it's important to spend a lot of time there and then make an informed decision.  What one person may like the exact opposite will be seen by another.

- Expat Dave

Thank you, Dave, you did my work for me. It's always an amazing experience when you find that the person you're chatting with has the complete opposite viewpoint than you do about a book, a film, a public figure or actor or college than you do. Meryl Streep. Completely over-rated.

Celadon,

And that is exactly why I encourage people to physically explore whatever county or area that they are considering moving to.  We all have very, very distinct opinions of what we like or dislike or what we can adapt to.  Yes, do as much research online as possible, but nothing beats physically being there to form an opinion.

- Expat Dave

I think I have posted about this elsewhere here but I'll post my story again.
I looked at Panama because I met someone who said it was much cheaper there and he really liked it. This was 10 years ago more or less.

It is (or was) quite a bit cheaper to live there. Pretty sure it still is.

There are many forests there BUT they are kind of sectioned off like in the USA, at least in the northern part that I saw.  In  Costa Rica when you drive around anywhere you see tons of nature. In Panama it's more like "turn here to go to the park" to see nature... Again, at least that's how it was in the northern part I visited.

Don't get me wrong many of the people we met there were very nice.
But neither I nor my friend who was with me felt the people were as nice and friendly as Ticos (IN GENERAL of course and just based on our isolated experience of spending 3 days there.)

I checked out the town of Volcan which I had heard was nice. I found it super windy and relatively cold and really nothing there.  Not impressed.

The city of David is a s___ hole as far as we were concerned. Not a place I'd want to live though the guy who told us about Panama seemed to love David because it was "cheap" to live there.

Then there is the ubiquitous police presence. They stop people in town on the streets, they stop you at booths along the highway, machine gun-armed guards station themselves on the roads...

It's a long story I won't go into here but we were hassled by a border guard who rode 30 min. back to the border with us because we missed getting a stamp and he threatened us with prison etc - seemingly to extract a bribe from us which we gave him because it seemed the only way to stop the threats which were getting worse and worse. Didn't give me a good feeling about Panama. Been coming to Costa Rica for over 20 years and never had any police or guard or ANYONE give me any hassle whatsoever.

It's not ALL big city in Panama though Panama City is very big and modern; there are lots of small towns and there are probably some nice ones.

Honestly, I would still look at living there. I'd like to see another area or two and see if there is a place I might like.  I mean why not? Costa Rica is getting very expensive.

Some advantages  of Panama are that the roads are much better, things are cheaper, I imagine they have more quality goods there than Costa Rica due to the canal...

But neither I nor my friend felt it was as good a place to settle as Costa Rica.
I chose Costa Rica and am not sorry.

Thank you, samramon. These comparison posts are dense with information, so it's a good bet they will be useful to a lot of people who  will be exploring an expat move to either country. Comparison shopping. Always a good idea.

Here are a few replies from expats living in Panama:


From - kristc99
"I have only lived in Panama, but I have met a number of expats who left Costa Rica for here because of the rising costs in CR. CR also seems to have more trouble with crime, mostly thefts from homes. Costa Rica is really beautiful. Panama tends to clear land for agriculture where CR tends to leave it more natural. We live in David, best of both worlds, the most beautiful province (IMHO) Panamanian living, but close enough to Costa Rica to visit anytime we want."

From - Padrino
"I lived in CR for 3 years from 1998-2000. Went to post grad school in San Jose but lived in the country side just to the east of the city so I got the best of both worlds. I liked CR for the culture, people and environment. San Jose had enough of the arts, symphonies, nice restaurants to be enjoyable and then the countryside was really back to nature. I even had a sloth living on my 2 acres on the hillside. But then there's the cost of living. Everything imported is 3x what it is in the states. Want a box of Cheerios.....$20...back then. Cars 300% what they are in the US including used cars. It is expensive. Panama where I'd visit to renew my visa was lovely and equally nice....just much less expensive. I made up my mind that when the time comes to bail out of the US again, I'm heading South, either Panama (Bocas) or Antigua in Guatemala. Time will tell. But my recommendation for your choice....Panama."

From - NewbietoCA
"When I was searching for somewhere to move to (from Canada), Costa Rica was actually at the top of my list. Panama was at the very bottom.

But, after visiting both countries, and spending some time in each one.........Panama won, hands down.

For me, the only edge CR has over Panama is the abundant beautiful nature. Aside from that, Panama wins in just about every other category :  crime (rampant in CR, especially the capital), cost of living (CR is more expensive than the US and Canada combined!!!), infrastructure, etc."

Hope this helps anyone considering these two countries.  And again, you need to physically explore on your own and discover your definition of paradise.

- Expat Dave

As I believe someone mentioned here or in another thread, the highest crime in outlying towns (i.e. not San Jose the capitol city) is break ins/burglary.
In outlying areas of Costa Rica violent crime is very low unless you are involved in criminal activity yourself in which case anywhere you live you are likely to be involved in crime.

Break-ins can happen to anyone, Tico or gringo but having a fancy house with a lot of stuff, or low or no security makes you more of a target.
Living in a "gated community" seems to attract more crime to gringos, and while I can't prove it, a very common belief here is that this is often because the Guards of the gated community are paid off to help the criminals  know when and where to break in.

I know of two gated communities near San Ramon that were robbed and in both cases they are pretty sure the guard helped the criminals pull it off.

Either way if you live in a "rich gringo" area  in a big fancy house, and leave your house with little or no security you are going to be more of a target. If you've got a lot of money for all that then I would suggest you invest some of it in some very good security precautions: a trusted security service, lights, alarms, bars on windows, security locks on doors and windows, etc.

On the other hand if you don't have a lot, and know your neighbors and treat them well, you are - imho - less likely to get burgled. I won't live with bars on windows so if I get burgled more than once then I'll have to move out of this area. So far, so good...
[Knock on wood 3 times.]

Asking in any expat forum, for opinions on why one country is better than another is like asking car owners which car to buy.  If you own a Ford you don't tend to say 'buy a Chevy'.

That's why if you look you will see some of the responses you have got are totally biased and even make incorrect and misleading statements.  Specifically regarding crime and cost of living.  There is no substitute for doing your own research and unbiased information on many hard fact issues are easily found online.  Opinions are not facts, remember that.  Even those that try to be as unbiased as they can, still have bias creeping in and/or incorrect information based solely on their opinion.

One site that provides statistics (facts) is Nationmaster.  If you look at it for Robberies what you find is that Costa Rica is the 4th highest on their list with 527 per 100k population.  Compare that to the USA at number 18 with 146; Canada at number 28 with 94 and Panama at number 59 with 38.   There are various other sites you can find that also provide statistics on just about anything you want to find out about.

Statistics are not always accurate, that's true but if you then look at posts in expat forums that touch on a given subject you find clues that people may have inadvertently given.  For example, in another expat forum covering CR, I have seen repeated comments about using common sense such as , 'don't drive after dark'.  Well common sense to me would be 'don't live somewhere where people suggest you shouldn't drive after dark.' 

Another comment I have read concerns bars on windows.  When questioned, the responses are that it is no different than having an alarm system on your house in a more affluent country.  It's a poor man's security system.'  Again, common sense to me is to not live some where that you feel a need for either system.

These kind of issues tend to elicit opinions that are totally dependent on what a given individual accepts as 'normal'.  I currently live in a small town of 3000 people in Canada where other than the main street jewellery store, I don't think anyone has an alarm system and certainly none have bars on windows.  Someone living in Los Angeles on the other hand may see 'Armed Response' signs on every second front lawn and bars on windows in all kinds of neighbourhoods.  We have different views of what is 'normal'. 

You have to decide Celadon what criteria are important to you and you have to search out both statistical facts and read and INTERPRET comments in forums like this in light of your criteria and your norms.

Make a list of things you want to find out about.  Healthcare access and standard of care; crime; infrastructure  like roads, internet, electricy reliability (many countries experienc frequent 'brown outs' for example); ease of travel to visit family and friends; ease of obtaining legal residency (anywhere people talk about doing 'visa runs' every so many months are a total no no for me personally for example); cost of living.  Etc. etc.

Cost of living is a tricky one.  You can find statistics that compare it from country to country quite easily.  the website Numbeo is a site many people will refer to.  However, each individual again has their own criteria in regards to cost of living.  The question is, what does it include in that comparison and how does that match up to your criteria.  I call this the 'flush toilet' test'.  A country might have a lower statistical cost of living but flush toilets are not the norm.  Are you OK with that?  It's an extreme example but it illustrates how it can vary by individual.  There is little point in finding somewhere that the average rent is $500 vs. another country where the average rent is $600 if the first doesn't have a flush toilet.

The same applies to groceries, etc.  So you need to put together your own 'basket of goods' and compare the prices.  For example, let's say you like to drink a bottle of Jim Beam every week.  In California, you could buy a bottle for $14.  In the UK the same bottle would cost you $38.  What would that do to your weekly budget if you consider it a 'necessity' for a good life?  The same range in prices can be found for many items and it is only by finding the prices in a given place for YOUR items that you can compare YOUR cost of living in different countries.  Here is a site that is pretty good for finding the price of most items in any given country and that allows you to ask users for a price in places where a price has not yet been reported.
http://www.humuch.com/prices/Jim-Beam-(White-Label)-1L/______/752#.WNaVrzvyvIU

Decide your criteria, put them in order of priority and then compare.  I would suggest the first priority should always be the ease of getting legal residency.  That criteria alone will reduce a potential list of countries real fast.  Then prioritize the usual, cost of living, crime, ease of access for travel, etc. as you wish. 

Finally, there is NO substitute for living in a country and finding out if it is for you or not.  The best you can expect from your research is to find a few countries that you THINK might suit your needs.  But the reality is that people don't always 'stick'.  On paper a place looks great but once you are living there, you may simply find that it is just 'too different' for you to like living there.  That happens to a great many people who go off to their 'retirement paradise'.

To avoid the pitfalls of that, there are 2 things you can do.  First, never buy property until you have lived in a place for at least 1 and preferably 2 years.  Rent, rent, rent.

Second, never set yourself up for failure by starting from the point of, 'I am going to find the place to spend the rest of my life.'  Approach it from the point of, 'I am going to try living in X NEXT.'  Next is an open ended decision.  It can be for a few months, a few years or forever.  You cannot get it wrong and you never have to beat yourself up if you decide to move on.  A 'forever' decision on the other hand can result in a feeling of 'failure'.  I have seen unhappy people in such situations, who were looking at a disaster in terms of having to sell up (and lose money) and having to face the embarassment and shame of telling family and friends that their perfect place was not so perfect.  Their mistake was made when they said, 'this is the place' instead of 'this is the place I will try next.'  One simple word, NEXT.

Here endeth the gospel as found in a dogeared old book.

When people post '...don't drive after dark' they are usually referring to a driving in a rural area where there are no lights and people are walking 3-4 abreast wearing dark clothing.

Other than that, I  agree with your post above.

Dogeared,

Well put and I would 100% agree.

- Expat Dave

kohlerias wrote:

When people post '...don't drive after dark' they are usually referring to a driving in a rural area where there are no lights and people are walking 3-4 abreast wearing dark clothing.

Other than that, I  agree with your post above.

And why would I want to live in a country where I am advised to not drive after dark regardless of the reason why kohlerias?   If I chose to live outside of town and wanted to drive into town for dinner at a restaurant or friend's home, should I have to forego doing that because driving at night was dangerous?  It doesn't matter what the reasons given for such advice are, what matters is whether it is an acceptable restriction to ME.

I have lived in half a dozen countries and each has its pluses and minuses.  Some I can live with like bureaucracy.  If for example, I compare dealing with bureaucracy in Canada vs. Greece, it is far easier in Canada.  It's a pain in the butt like bureaucracy everywhere but in Greece it is almost an art form and what you would expect to deal with in a couple of visits to a government office in Canada, can take dozens of visits in Greece.  I can deal with that because some of the pluses of living in Greece outweigh that minus and it isn't an everyday problem.  But I have seen that single factor alone annoy some people so much that they simply couldn't cope with it to the point that they packed up and left.

As I said, not everyone 'sticks' when they try living in another country and the reasons why are often simply an inability to deal with 'different'.  It isn't about right or wrong, good or bad, it's simply different and there is no way to know just what kind of 'different' will affect any given individual to what degree.

For me, what I look for are things that are likely to infringe on my personal freedom.  So I would not accept not being able to drive at night or having to have bars on my windows and a wall around the property with barbed wire on it for example.  Those things do not fall either within my idea of 'normal' or a 'difference' that I am willing to accept.

But each individual has their own criteria and so suggesting as I believe you are that, not driving at night is somehow understandable and acceptable may well be acceptable to you but not necessarily to someone else.

Dogeared wrote:

And why would I want to live in a country where I am advised to not drive after dark regardless of the reason why kohlerias?

And why would I want to live in a country where a large portion of the year I have to wear thick clothing or else I'll literally freeze to death?  We all make our own choices, and our choices might not be your choices, however, questioning another's choices serves no purpose.  Why exactly are you on this forum questioning our choice to live in Costa Rica, anyway?

Driving at night in Costa Rica can be dangerous.  However, simply driving slower *gasp* greatly reduces your chance of a collision.  How's that different from driving in a snowstorm?

Since you are posting on multiple forums and you mention above, that you have previously lived 'in half a dozen countries', I wonder if you have ever actually lived in Costa Rica?

kohlerias wrote:

When people post '...don't drive after dark' they are usually referring to a driving in a rural area where there are no lights and people are walking 3-4 abreast wearing dark clothing.

Other than that, I  agree with your post above.

...not to mention that often times there are no visible center lines or lines that delineate where the side of the road is.  And then add a bit of fog with trucks coming at you.  Yeah, driving at night is dangerous here.

I do agree that people need to make decisions on what is best for them; however, I would at the same time not take advice from what it sounds like is someone who has never been here, originally lived in Scotland and now resides in Canada.  (...ears of a dog  )

- Expat Dave

"We all make our own choices, and our choices might not be your choices, however, questioning another's choices serves no purpose.  Why exactly are you on this forum questioning our choice to live in Costa Rica, anyway?"

Where in what I wrote do you see me questioning YOUR choice thewizz? 

Kohlerias, what does which countries someone has lived in have to do with understanding what criteria people use in choosing a country to try living in?  Are you under the impression that people chose criteria to suit the country rather than choose a country that suits their criteria?

ExpatDave you wrote, " I would at the same time not take advice from what it sounds like is someone who has never been here, "

Advice on what?   If you wanted advice on how to go about making a choice, would you take advice from someone who has lived in 1 new country over the advice of someone who has lived in half a dozen new countries?  Which one has more experience in choosing a new country? 

You guys are now starting to take things personally.  You bought a Ford and all I am saying is someone looking to buy a new car should come up with their own criteria and decide whether they want to buy a Ford, Chevy, Mercedes, Fiat, etc.  I haven't said anywhere, 'don't buy a Ford'.  What I've said is 'don't take the opinions of people who have bought a Ford and who say 'Ford is the best' as being unbiased or necessarily the best answer for another individual.

I am not the one who is suggesting something is normal or acceptable to me and so should be acceptable to others.  I'm suggesting that each individual should determine their own criteria and what is and is not acceptable to them.  I'm writing to Celadon in regards to how to make a choice. 

I am not writing to you guys in regards to the choice you have made.  Do you understand the difference or are you only able to read my comments from your own viewpoint?  Are you here to help others with making their choice based on facts and unbiased information or are you here to justify the choice you made? 

Take a step back and gain some perspective guys.  No one country including Costa Rica is right for everyone.  Having someone say it isn't right for everyone, is not a reflection on whether it is right for you.  Don't take it as being one and go into defensive mode trying to justify your choice.

dogeared,  I think your reasoning is sound re how one can make a decision on whether to live here or not. One who is making that decision has to consider what is important to one.

Obviously in your case you should not live in Costa Rica because yes, it is dangerous to drive at night (at least many of us feel it is; some others think it's not), and yes home security is an issue though it very much depends on what part and how one lives in Costa Rica, too. I know many people who have had little or no theft and others who have been burgled more than once.

I would never live in Canada - too cold for me. Avoiding cold weather and snow is a priority for me. Avoiding driving at night is not a big deal to me, but yes it's SOMEtimes an inconvenience if I do have to or want to for some reason. I'd rather live with some concern of burglary than to live in the cold!

So your points are generally good. Everyone has to choose what is important to them, what place is within their budget and what down-sides they are willing to live with - because EVERY PLACE IN THE WORLD HAS ITS OWN DOWNSIDES!

For me the downside of Canada is cold weather, period. Not sure about other downsides but that one right there rules it out for me. Otherwise it sounds pretty good. Tons of Canadians seem to agree with me and move here to Costa Rica.

You are 100% right when  you say RENT here first!

Back to the main topic here, why Costa Rica over Panama:

For many of us it's also a budget consideration. If I were a millionaire I might move to the south of France, Spain or many places, especially if I could buy my way in!

On the other hand Panama is cheaper than Costa Rica and so is Nicaragua and Mexico. But would I live in those places? No.

The beauty here, the nature - animals, insects, butterflies, birds, trees, ocean, volcanoes, rivers, et al - makes it totally worth it to me! If you're not into Nature Costa Rica may not be for you because it's one of its most appreciated things.

And the people who are by and large very kind and friendly, more so than Panama imho.

There are negatives everywhere!

One more important point re stats:

When looking at, say, crime stats - most of the crime is from the big city San Jose or other high crime areas and if you don't live in one of those high crime areas you are much less likely to encounter crime!

Unfortunately, as far as I know, there are no reliable stats for, say "Grecia" or "Palmares" "San Ramon", Puriscal" etc.. The stats are for Costa Rica in general and since San Jose is the biggest city that's where most of the stats re crime, health, education etc are gathered from.

So looking at stats isn't very reliable at all.

It's like if you live in any big U.S. City, it might be very dangerous to go downtown at night. Locals might say "Do not go walking around downtown at night!" It's the same everywhere. Walking around in a bad neighborhood at night is not a great idea, especially if you're looking rich, wearing jewelry, carrying a fancy purse etc.

On the other hand there are tons of towns in Costa Rica where you can walk around at night, no problem!