Is anyone getting out of Egypt

Hi all expats just wondering if anyone is leaving Egypt right now because of the on going trouble in Egypt

I am from London and came to Egypt after the revolution hoping it would be a better country...but sadly after only one year have decided because the country is so unstable my best bet is to leave as i have two teenage daughters...with no security on the streets and increasing violence towards women..i no longer feel it is a safe place to bring up teenage girls.

I can't say that i am happy to leave..as we have a home here and love Egypt but can no longer take the risk of staying..does anyone feel the same?

well i think most people ( i am speaking about myself) knew what they were coming into and they chose to come here as they found a good opportunity that wouldn't be available else where. i for one was under no illusion when i came here. its all about ur priorities...did u move here for a job?

When SCAF will take over after one month, everything will be once again 'safe'.

I never came for a job..i came with my husband and two daughters he is from Egypt..so we thought after the revolution things might change for the better...we have lived here before but went back to the UK..then returned after 5yrs..but sadly things are going to take much longer to fix in a country that has had yrs of neglect and there is a big safety issue right now.
i have had lovely times here in Egypt and met lovely wonderful people but with two teenage girls i have to think of their safety in a country where the police just can't do the job right.

:rolleyes:

Chocolata, I have been in Egypt for a little over a year now. I came from Australia with my (Egyptian) wife to start a new life here.
I did not come here for a job, but for a life style change and in the hope that after the revolution things would get better.
It needs to be clearly understood, that after an extremely long time under oppressive rule, the normalization of corruption and bureaucracy will take the efforts of people wanting to make a change and impacting on those that support the old "style".
I have hope for the future, I just think it will take a bit of time and unfortunately demonstrations and possibly some young lives.
I am conscious of your fear for your daughters, but the issues are not sprawling into every area. I find that most of the concern is in the main cities and not in areas such as Rehab etc. but caution is always a good thing.
In any case, I hope that you stay and I hope that you can make a difference.

I totally agree with Doopa.. as long as you are away from the unrest areas.. nothing hopefully would happen and even if under any case you went to Tahrir sq. for example as long you are not holding a stone and sharing the riot.. you would never get hurt.. Cairo still much safer than Chicago, New york, shanghai and many other world cities... the fact is the media is focusing on what is happening so many times and this scenario of repeating and heating up the unrest beside some brain washed teen gangs .. all that what make the riot happen..:(

i wish you all would be safe .. and by the way any Egyptian who is leaving Egypt now would be only leaving for money issue looking for a better work not cause of security at all.. and for me i know many youth who come to study Arabic here while all the riot happen and all of them still here and many of them extending their visit for more 6 months also i know young couples who come to enjoy the Egyptian sun in winter and many other cases.. :)

please don't respond to the negative media .. try to cheer up and be sure that tomorrow come always with a new hope and new day..:)

I disagree as for security in Cairo. Several women have been raped in Tahrir and other areas, and sexually assaulted. Women of different ages have been targeted ranging from 40 to 12 years old.

People have been also stabbed and mugged. An armed group entered in intercontinental hotel just a few days ago and took the whole building hostage near Garden City.

Children of wealthy Egyptians got kidnapped for ransom.

What I would say is, there are areas in cairo that are safer and away from main riots. And there are cities on the Red Sea that are totally safe, because the many checkpoints along the way from Cairo are sufficient in preventing rioters and criminals to reach tourist hubs.

I would have to disagree with Dooba also I am afraid.

I was here and stayed during the 'last' revoulution inJanuary 2011 - and it was frightening!
Basically nowhere was safe.
The attacks/ crimes/lootings / attacks on personal property was beyond belief!
compounds outside the city were being attacked and looted / everyone in all areas of the city were outside their house wielding bats / iron bars andf guns to protect their property.

Only this last week I have heard from various friends / acquantainces that there has been many break ins attacks on apartments and people.  Even in areas where I would least have expected it - taking advantage whilst the polices and everyone elses attention is on Tahrir, Port Said, Suez, Alexandria.

Only yesterday I was entering Arab mall and they stopped a guy who was going through the scanner with an automatic handgun (and no he wasn't police!) - I was shocked!

2 days ago my husband was out and talking to some people who said that soon the poor people will start attacking the wealthy people / expats in Egypt - as they deserve it! (Take some of the money for ourselves was the attitude)

I think the general consesus of opinion is that Egypt has someve some dark days ahead.


And really Chocolata I don't blame you.  I have 2 girls myself and it is a serious thought to leave.
I don't want my children growing up in this place where harrassment is the accepted norm.  And no matter what people say I have never in all my life been subjected to harrassment of the sort that I (and my eldest daughter who is 11) are subjected to here.  And no Egypt isn't the only country I have lived in - and I have travelled extensively.
I have been coming to Egypt - not just as a tourist - for over 12 years - and I can honestly say that the first time I came I used to walk the length of Pyramids road by myself with no attention or any kind of harrassment.  Now I wouldn't do it!
And just to be clear I am no shrinking violet.

It is a great shame - and spoils what was - could be again - a beautiful country.

Thanks all for you comments However as far all people know Egypt before the unrest & the 2010 revolution was considered a big prison controlled by police and where all the regime hiding with his police power hand that intrude in all life activities..

whether we agree with that or not but it was limiting the crime level to almost zero in many Egyptian cities and when a single accident happen any where it was kept under the media spot may be for months till another accident took place.. so when media cover now what is happening it focus on every thing repeating it over and over again which engrave the accident in the mind.. and for expats who are used to never hear a security issue in Egypt and love the security level here- which can't be found in most of their home lands before all the 2010 events - that would be like a active volcano throwing lava into the lake while for most normal Egyptians it is like a stone in the river.. they know it is just something bad and wouldn't affect the whole image and we cooperate together to pass it.


ExpEgypt :

I disagree as for security in Cairo. Several women have been raped in Tahrir and other areas, and sexually assaulted. Women of different ages have been targeted ranging from 40 to 12 years old.

I don't want to be defending for my country However i would tell you part of Egypt culture and history; In old days whenever a rape accident happen, media spot the light on this accident for may be a year or something till the bad guy get a death penalty .. i would encourage you to return to any of the human rights watch reports regarding the rape rate in Egypt compered to country like US for example.. and you would be astonished for sure.... I don't say rape is good thing cause it is awful and we all should act together to stop it and prevent it as much as we can. we don't neglect the accidents but also we don't over estimate it..

ExpEgypt :

People have been also stabbed and mugged. An armed group entered in intercontinental hotel just a few days ago and took the whole building hostage near Garden City.

yes that had happened and we are all sad for it but i don't think when the terrorist bombing that shake London years ago had prevented people from going to UK.. yes people get afraid and shocked but they didn't leave the country due to that threatening other wise they make terrorist succeed in their plans.. the same exactly here.. if we get afraid and run away that would let more space for the riot to take place and make the bad people success in their plans destroying our beloved country.

ExpEgypt :

Children of wealthy Egyptians got kidnapped for ransom.

Claudia.. This happen in Mexico, in China and many other cities around the world every moment .. due to economy issues and lack of security but it had never happen before in Egypt and it is new phenomena here and that is why media is over spotting on it; which make expats get worried. I don't deny it but i don't over spot it, i just put the situation to the correct size and willing it would be ended very soon .. yes it happen but in certain areas for example it had never happen in Hurgada where you are now..

ExpEgypt :

What I would say is, there are areas in Cairo that are safer and away from main riots. And there are cities on the Red Sea that are totally safe, because the many checkpoints along the way from Cairo are sufficient in preventing rioters and criminals to reach tourist hubs.

I totally agree with you and we all should stand and stopping all the riots and the unrest condition and by the way it is not the checkpoint what prevent the crime .. people themselves is the first defense against crime.

Don't panic & stay calm every thing would be good and safe soon.

Please Pray for Egypt if you realy care for Egypt  and help the Egyptians for reach a better future ..

Miro,

You presented a point of view representing an Egyptian citizen and native of the land.

An expatriate might not have such strong ties to the land, so he will just move somewhere else.

Furthermore, we cannot compare single attacks with civil war and political instability.

Attacks in London etc, are from external agents, not internal.

Instability inevitably leads to lack of security, as this country was ruled for 50 years by a military regime.

What is curious is that while the army was able to maintain security under Mubarak, suddenly, it becomes incompetent. It is the same army! How come now they are unable to maintain order?

I think it is deliberate, and there should be no wonder that the slogan on that black bloc masked criminals says: revenge. Revenge from what?

This word is well revealing of whom is behind the riots, the violence, etc.

Those who wants revenge from brotherhood is the former regime.

Miro

I think you think Expats are a naive bunch of people - who don't have friends and see things for themselves.
I am sure that before there was a certain level of crime that we didn't see - but also I am very sure that the types of crimes being perpetrated now are by far on a dfferent level - of seriousness and number of incidences!

There have been terrotist incidences over the years previously - isolated attacks (Hatshepsut, Egyptian museum spring to mind).
The tourists left - as no doubt did some expats - but they slowly trickled back - becuase they were just that isolated! ALso the response from the government was good - rapid response units deployed, plain clothes secutiry at the monuments, etc.

Now you have a whole different ball game.
WHat is happening now is not isolated incidencs - the demonstrations / riots / protests that turn violent are happening more and more frquesntly.  The crime is rising daily. Daily we find friends telling us of thier experiences - we see things happen in front of our own eyes.
It is a downward spiral into chaos and mob rule.

Egypt is a continuing revolution and following what happened in Jan. 2011 - Egypt has descended (and I think will continue to descend for some while yet) into chaos and instability.

Sexual harrassment - takes many forms of which rape is the worst.  But the harrassment here in EGypt is worse than I have ever seen it - they target most women, and girls.
But with regards to Rape - when you compare figures you compare 'reported incidences' - not actual. I think in a society like this is not easy for a girl/woman to come forward to say she was raped - she would be ruined and subjected to very harsh treatment - so I would imagine the ones that are found / repprted are the tip of the iceberg here in Egypt!

Harrassment - the level is such now that there are some areas that I used to go - I won't anymore, and I hate to walk (or even drive) down the street (but at least in my car I can turn my radio up and ignore them more easily).
Even at such places like the monuments - the harrassment is terrible. 
In my own country I am not subjected to anything like the level of harrassment that I am here - even my 11 year old is a target. And never in all my travels either!
The vulgarity and downright crudeness of the verbal and the gestures of it is unbelievable - and unfortunately my daughter and I understand Arabic very well.

And please - if you don't think that the terrorist bombings that have occurred in for example London didn't make the tourists stay away or some expats leave - then you are very much mistaken.
The tourist industry suffered alot and took a long time to recover.

Kidnapping - yes it does happen in certain countries - but would I go and live there as an expat, with my children - absolutely not!
And as for your premise that it would never happen in for example Hurghada - that is just naivety! 
I think it already has in the past (bombs) - but that time just an isolated incidence).

Expats are not from this country - obviously, ao have no loyalty to stay.
If when they came the country was deemed safe - that is one reason why they came and brought their families.
If they now know it to be unsafe - then why should they put themselves and their families at risk.
Some make a personal choice and leave - some, their companies take them out of the region.

It is a personal choice - and we base it what we see / hear / experience everyday - and I do hate to say but Egypt and it's people have changed.
Without the strong arm, without any police (rightly or wrongly) the average EGyptian bascially does what they like - harrassment, crime, burglary, violence - with complete disregard for the law and because the police really don't care anymore.

ANd once you behave like this chaos reigns.

Which I think is where Egypt is at now.

It will take time for the mind to grow - to accept that although there is no-one behind you with a big stick the rules/laws of the land have to be followed.  That democracy is not just a license for everyone to do and behave exactly as they want.
But for the mind to rewire and grow to accept all that has happened and all that the country can be - will take time.

The government has certain taxes / subsidy cutting plans that it has to follow through on - or forfeit the IMF loan they are so desparately after - so again the people will be unhappy and feel hard done to.
Until things settle down - foriegn companies and investment will stay away - so the unemployment rate will continue to rise - which gives you poor disaffected youths with no money and nothing to do.

Egypt has a long way to go and is fast reaching a set of crossroads down which it will travel one road - which road has yet to be seen.

I am sure that Egypt will rise again - but I am almost as sure that this revolution isn't finished yet!

I agree with the non-safety of the country. I left Cairo in the summer, after a year. I moved to another part of the country, completely disconnected. No way i want to bring up my child in that environment, as much as i may love it.

To deny the above mentioned issues is not gonna help the country. To lie, and say that only the women in Tahrir that threw stones were herrassed is not fair and not real.

It is not only the inexistent security, it has also to do with the ppl's lack of morality. Not 3 or 4 isolated cases, no, it's about three generations of men not learning how to respect women and their dignity.

Chocolata, dont feel bad because it's a very responsible decision. A lot of expats left, right now this is not the wonderful egypt we knew.

Good luck

biffy :

Miro

I think you think Expats are a naive bunch of people - who don't have friends and see things for themselves.
I am sure that before there was a certain level of crime that we didn't see - but also I am very sure that the types of crimes being perpetrated now are by far on a dfferent level - of seriousness and number of incidences!

There have been terrotist incidences over the years previously - isolated attacks (Hatshepsut, Egyptian museum spring to mind).
The tourists left - as no doubt did some expats - but they slowly trickled back - becuase they were just that isolated! ALso the response from the government was good - rapid response units deployed, plain clothes secutiry at the monuments, etc.

Now you have a whole different ball game.
WHat is happening now is not isolated incidencs - the demonstrations / riots / protests that turn violent are happening more and more frquesntly.  The crime is rising daily. Daily we find friends telling us of thier experiences - we see things happen in front of our own eyes.
It is a downward spiral into chaos and mob rule.

Egypt is a continuing revolution and following what happened in Jan. 2011 - Egypt has descended (and I think will continue to descend for some while yet) into chaos and instability.

Sexual harrassment - takes many forms of which rape is the worst.  But the harrassment here in EGypt is worse than I have ever seen it - they target most women, and girls.
But with regards to Rape - when you compare figures you compare 'reported incidences' - not actual. I think in a society like this is not easy for a girl/woman to come forward to say she was raped - she would be ruined and subjected to very harsh treatment - so I would imagine the ones that are found / repprted are the tip of the iceberg here in Egypt!

Harrassment - the level is such now that there are some areas that I used to go - I won't anymore, and I hate to walk (or even drive) down the street (but at least in my car I can turn my radio up and ignore them more easily).
Even at such places like the monuments - the harrassment is terrible. 
In my own country I am not subjected to anything like the level of harrassment that I am here - even my 11 year old is a target. And never in all my travels either!
The vulgarity and downright crudeness of the verbal and the gestures of it is unbelievable - and unfortunately my daughter and I understand Arabic very well.

And please - if you don't think that the terrorist bombings that have occurred in for example London didn't make the tourists stay away or some expats leave - then you are very much mistaken.
The tourist industry suffered alot and took a long time to recover.

Kidnapping - yes it does happen in certain countries - but would I go and live there as an expat, with my children - absolutely not!
And as for your premise that it would never happen in for example Hurghada - that is just naivety! 
I think it already has in the past (bombs) - but that time just an isolated incidence).

Expats are not from this country - obviously, ao have no loyalty to stay.
If when they came the country was deemed safe - that is one reason why they came and brought their families.
If they now know it to be unsafe - then why should they put themselves and their families at risk.
Some make a personal choice and leave - some, their companies take them out of the region.

It is a personal choice - and we base it what we see / hear / experience everyday - and I do hate to say but Egypt and it's people have changed.
Without the strong arm, without any police (rightly or wrongly) the average EGyptian bascially does what they like - harrassment, crime, burglary, violence - with complete disregard for the law and because the police really don't care anymore.

ANd once you behave like this chaos reigns.

Which I think is where Egypt is at now.

It will take time for the mind to grow - to accept that although there is no-one behind you with a big stick the rules/laws of the land have to be followed.  That democracy is not just a license for everyone to do and behave exactly as they want.
But for the mind to rewire and grow to accept all that has happened and all that the country can be - will take time.

The government has certain taxes / subsidy cutting plans that it has to follow through on - or forfeit the IMF loan they are so desparately after - so again the people will be unhappy and feel hard done to.
Until things settle down - foriegn companies and investment will stay away - so the unemployment rate will continue to rise - which gives you poor disaffected youths with no money and nothing to do.

Egypt has a long way to go and is fast reaching a set of crossroads down which it will travel one road - which road has yet to be seen.

I am sure that Egypt will rise again - but I am almost as sure that this revolution isn't finished yet!

I could not have put it any better...every word you said is true

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