Verification of Hungarian Citizenship (by descent)

bande11 Active member

36POSTS

8 years ago

Hi Everyone,

I will try to keep this as concise as possible! I am an Australian Citizen. Not too long ago I found out I have Hungarian blood (my grandparents on my fathers side were both born in Hungary).

Whilst on a working holiday visa in London - May 2016 I applied at the London Hungarian Consulate for Verification of Citizenship. I supplied all documentation required for this process.

Fast forward to August 2017, I am advised my case has now been put forward for Registration of Birth.

20 months on from initial application in London (December 2017) I write to the consulate asking if there is any news on my case. I am advised that it is still processing the birth registration, and that my case is a difficult one due to my grandparents having never married (despite both still being Hungarian citizens). They have asked me to contact them in late January 2018 regarding my case.

Can I ask from other's personal experience - would it be looking positive at this stage that I will receive my Hungarian Citizenship? I know each case is unique, however after nearly 2 years of waiting I am just really hoping I wont be left with disheartening news. It means the world to me.

**Please know my application didn't include applying for a passport... that will be the next step after this process.

See also

Banking and Finance in Hungary - Guide
Hungarian Citizenship via Verification - 7 Replies
Acknowledgement of fathership in Citizenship Verification - 6 Replies
Eligibility for citizenship by descent - 9 Replies
Hungarian Citizenship by descent - 13 Replies
Update on Verification of Citizenship Case - 15 Replies
UPDATE ON VERIFICATION CASE - 14 Replies

zif Serial expat

624POSTS

8 years ago

There's really not much you can do at this stage except fret and stew, but if you look in the long thread here on Simplified Naturalization I believe there are some posts regarding a similar problem.

bande11 Active member

36POSTS

8 years ago

Hi Zif,

Thanks for your response. My case differs due to it not being Simplified Naturalization and instead Verification of Citizenship. I know this can take twice as long as everything (my documentation and lineage) requires to be verified.

Just trying to determine if others have experienced the process I have had to, and if a case can only be put forward for Birth Registration once the individual has been deemed a Hungarian Citizen!

zif Serial expat

624POSTS

8 years ago

I wasn't clear. I meant that unmarried parents/grandparents should raise similar issues whether it's verification or simplified naturalization: in both cases you need to demonstrate satisfactory lineage. I recall that the poster in the other thread had a lot of difficulties because there was no marriage certificate before birth.

Again, not much you can do, except be aware that if there are out-of-wedlock births in your chain approval will be more involved.

2 members reacted to this post

Marilyn Tassy ViP

7136POSTS

8 years ago

I also think it will be a bit more hassle but don't give up.
Our son was given my surname when he was born and we didn't legally marry until he was 2 years old.
Had all papers though when we applied for his HU citizenship, court papers showing he had a legal name change to his father's surname, marriage papers for us etc.
We submitted everything through the HU embassy in S. Ca.
Was done 25 years back or more but if memory serves me, it was given to him within a few months time. Of course back then Hungary was still communist and not many people were applying for citizenship from the west.

1 member reacted to this post

tauszk18 Member

2POSTS

7 years ago

Hi,
From experience I can say that the consular departments don't know anything and cannot help you. The only way you can find out the current status of your request for the verification of your Hungarian citizenship is calling the Budapest Metropolitan Offices, Department of Citizenship and Registry, 00-361-5501221 and talk to the actual registrar who is sitting on your request. Sorry, but for this-if you don't speak Hungarian- find one who does. Nobody will be ready to give out any info in English. Not many Hun. gov. officials know English.
First they will ask your name, date of birth, city of birth, maybe if you have already know your request's system number.
He or she will tell you the status .
I hope I could help.

2 members reacted to this post

petromaya Active member

32POSTS

7 years ago

Hello,

im in a similar situation to you regarding your family
so hopefully i get a yes to verification and registration of my birth

marklivesinla Active member

49POSTS

7 years ago

Hello I received my verification letter (by way of the local Hungarian Consulate) today! I am Hungarian by way of proving my father is a Hungarian citizen.

It took 11 months to get official word back from Budapest to my local Consulate.

I am scheduled to go in for my HU passport in September. So excited!

1 member reacted to this post

petromaya Active member

32POSTS

6 years ago

Just letting everyone know i finally got my birth extract and a residence card in the mail today from the consulate not a verification letter for some reason

its been a long journey i remember applying 1 year 3 months ago but it finally is done

so i have asked the consulate to schedual a passport appointment so i can get that issued

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jarschwar Member

2POSTS

6 years ago

#10

Congratulations! I would like to pursue verification of citizenship via my great grandfather. He immigrated to the US in 1914 and married a 2nd generation Hungarian woman (my great grandmother). Do you think it could be possible to be verified as a great grandchild? Or do you know if Hungarian law only allows this to extend to grandparents?

Thank you.

zif Serial expat

624POSTS

6 years ago

#11

For establishing citizenship by verification, you need to show that the chain passing Hungarian citizenship to you was not broken. That is, you need to show that each ancestor back to your GGF was a Hungarian citizen.

The problem is, Hungary once had a law, in effect in 1914, which usually terminated citizenship if a Hungarian was outside Hungary for more than ten years. If that law applied to your GGF, he could not pass Hungarian citizenship to his minor children. And a later law terminated Hungarian citizenship if a Hungarian acquired another citizenship. This could also apply to your GGF or another ancestor. To mention just a couple of issues, and not to even get into Trianon, if your GGF came from lands no longer part of modern Hungary.

The application of these and other Hungarian laws to old cases like yours becomes exceptionally complicated, and as a practical matter it can be impossible to demonstrate that the chain of citizenship was not broken.

Thus, most people in your case would go the Simplified Naturalization route, though that of course requires language study.

Whichever route you go, the essential starting document will be your GGF's birth record. If he emigrated in 1914, it's likely though not certain he was born before 1895, when the government started recording births (starting 1900 in Croatia). Births before then were recorded by the church, and it can sometimes be problematical tracking down these old church records.

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jarschwar Member

2POSTS

6 years ago

#12

Thank you for the information. I have located his birth record (not an official copy) and my grandmother's birth certificate (here in the US). I do know he naturalized after my grandmother was born but before she was an adult (sometime between 1926 and 1940's.

He was originally from the borders of modern day Hungary. I read that the 10 years didn't start until the individual became an adult. So the 10 years would have expired in 1927. Then he could have been stripped of his citizenship. I did read somewhere else that the 10 year expiry wouldn't start for those who were of military age and hadn't served in the military, so, it's seems a bit confusing and convoluted.

I wonder for my great grandmother, since she was born to two Hungarians in the U.S. if because she was born (automatically) with U.S. citizenship, would she automatically lose her Hungarian citizenship? Or would she become a Hungarian again once she married my great grandfather (as a Hungarian citizen) would she gain her citizenship back?

I am not opposed to going the Simplified Naturalization route, and have started learning the language with tutors, however, if I could verify citizenship I would be a citizen from my birth on from a later date. I prefer this route if possible. I don't mean to derail the original topic. Thank you for any info.

1 member reacted to this post

zif Serial expat

624POSTS

6 years ago

#13

The questions you raise are precisely the sort of questions that make verification a very complicated approach in old cases like yours.

I have also read that the ten-year rule was somehow suspended in certain cases during the war, but I have never come across the order itself suspending the rule so I don't know the details.

If you have plenty of time, I suppose you can gather all your documents, submit them and see the result. Then try Simplified Naturalization if they reject your application. Or, if you want an answer beforehand, hire at some expense a Hungarian immigration lawyer who has access to all the old orders and regulations and can apply them to your case.

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atomheart Serial expat

614POSTS

6 years ago

#14

jarschwar wrote:
I am not opposed to going the Simplified Naturalization route, and have started learning the language with tutors, however, if I could verify citizenship I would be a citizen from my birth on from a later date. I prefer this route if possible.

But the Simplified Naturalization (and the "regular" naturalization that becomes available after 8 years of residency) is your only option, and you need proof of your hungarian ancestry. There is an option for people who once were hungarian citizens but lost it somehow ("visszahonosítás"), but this doesn't apply to you.

Edit: I take that back, wasn't aware of the "verification of citizenship" route, always assumed that it was referring to SN...

1 member reacted to this post

idegen New member

7POSTS

6 years ago

#15

I'd honestly be surprised if you qualified for verification of citizenship, but there's not enough information to say for sure. I'd start learning Hungarian to prepare for simplified naturalization.

1 member reacted to this post

981years New member

6POSTS

5 years ago

#16

Hey , i would like to ask
I just recieved my citizenship and passport, same case , does in certificate it mention father Hungarian and mother is not like i do ?

leigh03 Member

10POSTS

4 years ago

#17

@bande11 Hi Bande 11. I'm in Australia and on a bit of a research exercise into obtaining Hungarian citizenship by way of verification, and also more broadly - and specifically regarding people whose ancestors (usually grandparents and parents as children) left under communist rule post Word War II. I am aware that there are a lot of people in this category. I'm interested in corresponding with some to find out about how the process worked for them (or did not if it didn't). So, full disclosure, this is not about me specifically except is-so-far as it is my research! It's importance is in relation to the Australian Constitutional bar on dual citizenship, which has been and remains a big issue here (as you may know). Anyone who makes contact with me is assured of privacy, in that their details and identity will remain with me alone and shared with no other unless they give their express approval. Whatever I find out about the process may also be useful for others and undertake to share that.

So I'm wondering how you got on with this (now a while ago!) and also whether your grandparents left Hungary post WWII.

I also hope it is all well for you and all the best in these troubled times.

leigh03 Member

10POSTS

4 years ago

#18

@petromaya Hi . I'm in Australia and on a bit of a research exercise into obtaining Hungarian citizenship by way of verification, and also more broadly - and specifically regarding people whose ancestors (usually grandparents and parents as children) left under communist rule post Word War II. I am aware that there are a lot of people in this category. I'm interested in corresponding with some to find out about how the process worked for them (or did not if it didn't). So, full disclosure, this is not about me specifically except is-so-far as it is my research! It's importance is in relation to the Australian Constitutional bar on dual citizenship, which has been and remains a big issue here (as you may know). Anyone who makes contact with me is assured of privacy, in that their details and identity will remain with me alone and shared with no other unless they give their express approval. Whatever I find out about the process may also be useful for others and undertake to share that.

So I'm wondering how you got on with this (now a while ago!) and also whether your ancestors (grandparents maybe?) left Hungary post WWII.

I also hope it is all well for you and all the best in these troubled times.

petromaya Active member

32POSTS

4 years ago

#19

Hello Leigh

i obtained my Hungarian citizenship after 1 year and 6 months of waiting, i submitted my paperwork at the consulate in Melbourne, and then waited.

I received my Hungarian birth certificate and address card in the mail once i had this i went back to the consulate where we applied for my identity card + passport which took about a month to get.

my grandparents both born in Hungary immigrated to Australia in 1957 (during the purple war)

(now back story) i went over to Hungary and got my grandparents documents translated from English to Hungarian (including my birth certificate and my other identity documents)

one of the key things i can advise is as long as you have a paper trail to link you to your Hungarian ancestor then its a good chance you will get approved for citizenship

so Birth certificate with you and your dad > your dads birth certificate with him and his dad > if his dad is Hungarian then you have link you just need to make sure you can show your clear link

maybe include a letter that shows the link evidence is good as well

*side side note (they only care about your dads side from what i was told in government building in Budapest

regarding the section 44 ban i never intent to run for politics in this country

hope this helps

Damien

rb421 Active member

28POSTS

4 years ago

#20

@bande11

Hi there,

I am a naturalized U.S. Citizen.

Do you speak Hungarian as one member mentioned that you need to speak to the actual person who is "sitting" on your case and it must be in their native language (Hungarian.) If you do not speak Hungarian, I am willing to help you out because I'm a native Hungarian. I myself was born and raised in the capital of Hungary (Budapest) and lived there until 1987 - that's when I was 29 years old.

I'm a private person, not a lawyer or anything like that. I am just sincerely willing to even write a letter in my native language to the person who can possibly move forward your case.

Have a great day!

Sincerely,

Robert

leigh03 Member

10POSTS

4 years ago

#21

@petromaya Hi Damien, thanks so much! Do you know what form of border papers, if any, your grandparents left Hungary with? (most then who left after the 1956 were refugees without any form of passport I believe). Plus would you be able to tell me their names? If you are OK with that and don't want to do it in this blog, you could email me at Leighnaunton@tpg.com.au If I have names I can see if they are listed on the refugee or other lists as stateless.

petromaya Active member

32POSTS

4 years ago

#22

Hello Leigh

My grandad had a red book (this was used to control what towns he was allowed to visit, it got signed by his place of work and by his mother, but as long as you have the name of your ancestor / family name, the DOB, and place of birth (they will look up the birth certificate to verify that )

and just a side note when you fill out the forms to get verification of Hungarian citizenship (you can get the consulate to speak on your behalf if you don't speak Hungarian that is what i did

My grandparent was Arpad and Roszalia

leigh03 Member

10POSTS

4 years ago

#23

@petromaya Damien, maybe this (from national archives)? KOPINSKY Roszalia born 28 March 1928 - Hungarian - travelled per GENERAL TAYLOR on 25 June 1957. If not, can you give me a last name for them?

SimCityAT Expert

13790POSTS

4 years ago

#24

@bande11
Hi there,
I am a naturalized U.S. Citizen.
Do you speak Hungarian as one member mentioned that you need to speak to the actual person who is "sitting" on your case and it must be in their native language (Hungarian.) If you do not speak Hungarian, I am willing to help you out because I'm a native Hungarian. I myself was born and raised in the capital of Hungary (Budapest) and lived there until 1987 - that's when I was 29 years old.
I'm a private person, not a lawyer or anything like that. I am just sincerely willing to even write a letter in my native language to the person who can possibly move forward your case.
Have a great day!
Sincerely,
Robert
- @rb421

Robert, @bande11 has not been on the website in 3 years!

marklivesinla Active member

49POSTS

4 years ago

#25

@bande11
Hi there,
I am a naturalized U.S. Citizen.
Do you speak Hungarian as one member mentioned that you need to speak to the actual person who is "sitting" on your case and it must be in their native language (Hungarian.) If you do not speak Hungarian, I am willing to help you out because I'm a native Hungarian. I myself was born and raised in the capital of Hungary (Budapest) and lived there until 1987 - that's when I was 29 years old.
I'm a private person, not a lawyer or anything like that. I am just sincerely willing to even write a letter in my native language to the person who can possibly move forward your case.
Have a great day!
Sincerely,
Robert
- @rb421

Robert, @bande11 has not been on the website in 3 years! - @SimCityAT

Not sure if this is already understood by you, but just in case, there is no language requirement for those who are applying for verification. Verification implies that one was born Hungarian and as such, all that is required is to provide the legal proof of that status. It cannot be denied for any reason if proven and if there is no basis for the applicant to have lost their citizenship, because the citizenship is not being acquired, but rather is already held since the moment of birth, and therefore it is only verified. There is no need for naturalization. When I got mine verified it was through a consulate in the United States and there was no issue with using English language to speak to those working there. That said, any required forms were written and completed in Hungarian and I used a translator who graciously assisted me in completing all the necessary paperwork.

Of course, speaking the language is still very much a requirement, and indeed at the very core, of those seeking simplified naturalization.

1 member reacted to this post

leigh03 Member

10POSTS

4 years ago

#26

@marklivesinla Hi Mark (I think your user name means you are Mark and live in Los Angeles, if so please give The Angels my love!). Thanks so much, that confirms what I thought, that it verifies an existing form of inherited citizenship, it is not an application for citizenship based on eligibility.

I am especially asking about people whose ancestors (usually grandparents and parents as children) left under communist rule post Word War II. Is this the case with you?

marklivesinla Active member

49POSTS

4 years ago

#27

Hi there. Yes indeed. My father left in November ‘56, as did about 150,000 other Hungarians. There was no blanket decree invoking a loss of citizenship for those that left. As such, I was born Hungarian because my father was from Budapest and we had the requisite paperwork to prove it.

It gets harder for those going into deeper generations because there were a lot of ways to lose your citizenship prior to ‘57, but leaving in ‘56 is not one of them.

For this reason, people seeking to get citizenship through generational inheritance that goes beyond grandparents usually have to use simplified naturalization because many of those ancestor would’ve been subjected to some form of loss of citizenship because of the law in earlier parts of the century and fluctuating territorial borders.

For those with parents or grandparents that left around the beginnings of communist rule and Russian influence, it is easier to prove direct unbroken citizenship, provided they have the paperwork. Also worth noting that after WWII Hungarian territorial boundaries didn’t further change, so most people with citizenship claims based on being descendants of those who left around the time of the revolution would also come from lineage originating in modern day Hungary; this lessens complications for verification.

leigh03 Member

10POSTS

4 years ago

#28

@marklivesinla Thanks Mark! Excellent. Now here is the puzzle I am trying to solve, the full story because you clearly know a lot about this process of verifying Hungarian citizenship.

Australia has a constitutional bar on Federal members of parliament and candidates for that office being dual citizens, and our High Court has interpreted that very literally so that about 20 have been caught and had to resign. But they only get formally caught if they self-refer to the High Court for a determination or the Parliament refers them.

There is one, our local member, who is high profile, the Federal Treasurer, who has Hungarian grandparents who came here with their daughter, his mother, arriving in 1949. He claimed his grandparents and mother were stateless, so he could not be a Hungarian citizen. My friend took him to the High Court in 2019 - he could do this just after the election - disputing his election on the grounds that he was a dual citizen. My friend is active in the climate movement and as you may know, the Australian government is rated as doing very poorly on commitments and action to combat global warming; that was his motivation, plus that the governing parties were blocking referral of this politician by the parliament when many others had been referred or referred themselves.

The upshot of the case was that my friend lost, the court finding that the politician was not a dual citizen because the Hungarian law as it operated in 1948 was that his grandparents and mother were rendered stateless because the secret police would let you out but would not let you return and the only paper you could get was an exit pass. My friend had an expert witness who wrote a report that Hungarian law, being by heredity, Jus sanguinis, determined that the politician is a Hungarian citizen. However, that expert went missing and could not be cross-examined. He has now reappeared and maintains that opinion but of course the case is over, and the finding cannot be appealed to a higher court because it was before the highest court in the nation.

This would not be a huge issue for me except that the court found that my friend must pay all the costs. His own were mostly pro bono but the other party's amount, which is about half a million dollars, is outside his capacity to pay by hundreds of thousands . My friend is being bankrupted by the politician, which if it goes through will mean that his and his wife's home will be sold by the bankruptcy trustee to recover the debt.

It seems pretty clear that the court made the wrong decision. They had to make a timely decision under the governing law, and the time was blown out by covid-related delays. We know of one person here whose grandparents and father came here after the '56 revolution and subsequent Russian invasion, and the person in question had his Hungarian citizenship verified. We also know that the operation of the secret police and the law in effect was the same in 1956-7 as in 1948-9.

We know that there must be many people like this person and you. What we want ideally, is the stories of people like him and you who have had their Hungarian citizenship verified - whose ancestors left Hungary in that period; and especially if they were documented as being stateless by other countries (for example, who travelled on a Titre d'identité et de voyage used for refugees / displaced persons) and/or by international aid agencies. Even better, if they left Hungary and were subsequently identified as being stateless, in 1948-9.

We want to put this information in front of the politician and ask him, as a matter of conscience, to forgive the debt or to ask the government to pay his costs, as it did for all the 15 members of parliament who were referred to the High Court because they may have been in breach of the constitution by being dual citizens.

If there is any way you can assist further - for example, if you know your grandparents (I assume) and father were identified as being stateless - or you could give me their names (first and surname) so I could search - by email I guess - or if you know of others who you could ask to contact me or me them - I would be forever in your debt. If you prefer contact by email, it's [link under review]

Please help if you can

Leigh

marklivesinla Active member

49POSTS

4 years ago

#29

Leigh, stateless was a term used by the world for what amounts to refugees. My father and my mother were both designated as “stateless” on my birth certificate.

However, my father, in order to assist me, went through the motions of getting his Hungarian passport again. (He had already long before become a citizen elsewhere). He is older now and can’t recall with precision but he does not think he needed to “get it back”; he was still Hungarian or at least was welcomed back so to speak.

This does not mean the same is true in the case of the MP. My father did not receive exit papers. He “escaped”. So the circumstances do not match that of the MP’s descendants.

Importantly, certain citizens were indeed stripped of citizenship. If the secret police issued them an exit pass they may also have revoked their Hungarian citizenship. It happened. But it was not a blanket revocation for all who left Hungary. It was only enacted on individuals who were considered hostile to the state or may have been political “subversives”.

There is no way to know without digging if this was the case for the MP’s grandparents. Further, if their children or the MP were never registered for birth in Hungary they definitely would not not have been recognized as Hungarian citizens without the process of verification.

Finally, your friend gambled big on trying to get an MP out of running for office on something of a technicality. The steps for verification are very deliberate and until you complete them you enjoy none of the benefits of that unverified citizenship. Further, you are unknown to even exist by the Hungarian state. Part of the verification process is that you must register your birth, even if it was outside Hungary (you are literally sent a new Hungarian birth certificate afterwards). Without doing that it’s something of a grey area. Are you a citizen if you haven’t been registered as born when birth is the requirement? You see where I am going with this. There’s a little bit of a “chicken or the egg” element at play.

There may be legal and philosophical gaps between being entitled to citizenship while not actually verifying and thereby claiming it. In essence, until verified, the potential for additional citizenship is accidental and beyond the control of the MP. Should he be forced to revoke what he has not claimed? Would he better not let the sleeping dog lie? I suspect this played heavily into the court’s decision. Imagine, if rather than Hungarian, the country was hostile to Australia but had similar bloodline rules. And also imposed taxes or national service, or forbade joining another nation’s military on those with unwillingly eligible citizenship. It is common sense that Australia would not recognize that other citizenship if it had not been verified by the eligible person. As I said, it gets murky. Most of those people are not seen as dual by Australia. Those that have acted to register their inherited citizenships, more readily are.

1 member reacted to this post

leigh03 Member

10POSTS

4 years ago

#30

@marklivesinla Thanks again Mark, this is really helpful!

Two quick points of clarification: We're pretty sure their citizenship was not revoked and that they left with no papers, like your father. The MP's mother and grandparents had their births registered in Hungary, we believe.

Yes, the central issue at play now it seems is whether or not you have a form of citizenship if you would be certainly verified if you submitted the form for it with the necessary documentation to receive a certificate of citizenship; and is that form of citizenship sufficient to fall foul of the constitutional ban on dual citizenship for Federal MPs and candidates for office. The opinion from my friend's expert witness was that under the relevant Hungarian law it is, but more substantiation is needed.

As for the necessity to verify than revoke it to be sure, that is exactly what another candidate for office did.

The MP clearly decided on the sleeping dogs strategy, as he twice got the form to apply for verification but did not go through with it - entirely understandable, as it it would have placed all his decisions as a Minister under a cloud had he been verified, and he would also have had to resign and revoke his Hungarian citizenship, and then to stand again in a by-election - as was the case for some others in 2017 (due to other dual citizenships). In June 2019, my friend woke the dogs. Risky, certainly, but arguably in the public interest, These issues were not formally considered in the case, although of course the judges could hardly have avoided them being in their minds.

As for another country being hostile or having rules counter to our national interest, the effect of prior High Court decisions has been to make the matter very black letter law. It is close to - if you are a dual citizen in any way you fall foul of the constitutional bar and it matters not whether you had any control over it. You must simply get rid of it. Previously, the High Court held that if you as an MP or candidate took "reasonable steps" to ensure you were not a dual citizen that was sufficient, but that changed in 2017. Those words above "close to" need a bit more parsing by us yet.

Another small point of clarification - the ban on dual citizenship applies only to Federal MPs or candidates for office, no-one else in Australia.

I'll get back again with more, if you are still able to help with the thought process. It's complex and there is a lot at stake (well, not like Ukraine, but still), so I am very grateful. Again, if you know of any others whose forebears left Hungary around 1948-57 and who could share their stories, that would be really great. I hesitate to ask again but I must - if you could see your way clear to give me names of your forebears (first and surname) so I could search the public domain or if you know of others who you could ask to contact me or me them - I would be forever in your debt. The email I submitted is still listed as a link under review, so here is a phone number +61425 722 272 for SMS or via Signal or WhatsApp with an email address so I can get back that way. I guarantee that names would be blacked out in the copies that I keep of any documents that I find, and I will provide those documents to you.

All the best and thanks once again

Leigh

marklivesinla Active member

49POSTS

4 years ago

#31

I appreciate the detail shown in your discussion, and further, find it a fascinating subject.

Respectfully, I am not going to provide any names. It is after all not my name to give but rather that of my living father. And entering his name into an Australian constitutional fray - in any manner whatsoever - is something I would rather leave to the side. I am un-movingly resolute in this position.

I understand the urgency, and it’s a very interesting topic, to the point that I will look out for the arguments in any public forum that I can, but it is my view that a subject matter expert is the appropriate route to take here and it is my further my belief that such an expert would have the resources to call situationally similar evidence supporting their position because, as I’ve stated, there are so many Hungarian citizenship eligible people abroad, including, I am quite sure, a very large number of Australians. Australia was a leading destination for stateless Hungarians. It should be easy to find them. Look no further than any Hungarian cultural groups/associations within Australia to find at least some you can meet face to face and who may have sympathetic political leanings.

One small clarification; while I understand the MP’s parents’ birth was registered in Hungary, I was referring to the MP her/himself. Their own birth must be registered in Hungary to be recognized by the Hungarian state as a citizen. Thus the line of my chicken and egg thinking as it relates to your application of the law. It’s cloudy and compelling arguments can be made on either side of the line. Far brighter people than me can take that and expand upon it for what it’s worth!

If you can let me know the name of the MP (I presume the prior court battle is public knowledge) I would very much appreciate it. I will be reading up on the whole course of events with great interest. I myself have more than two citizenships and have always found the paradigm fascinating.

leigh03 Member

10POSTS

4 years ago

#32

@marklivesinla Thanks Mark, I of course regret your decision but I also respect it, and I'm also impressed with your word-smithing! Unfortunately, the current subject matter expert is, to my mind a little deficient because, while being very expert indeed on Hungarian citizenship law, he seems to be somewhat constrained by being in Hungary. If you have knowledge of any experts / people very experienced in assisting people wrt processes, I would be very grateful if you direct me to them. We do have some financial resources, albeit modest, with which to engage their services. I'll also try independently of course, but I do know that such people are pretty rare in Australia and may also feel constrained. Having said that, we have not yet tapped into the Hungarian associations here. One of our difficulties is that the politician is Jewish and there were entirely false accusations of anti-Semitism levelled at my friend, their falseness shown among other things, by his success in a defamation suit against News Corp and supported by his donation of the net proceeds of circa $10,000 to the Holocaust Museum here.

The Politician's name is Josh Frydenberg and a simple google search will of course bring up a lot of material but not the court proceedings easily. For that, google Staindl v Frydenberg [2020] FCAFC 41

If you are concerned that I might be tainted by anti-Semitism, I can only offer the defence that I was in the past a colleague of Josh's mother and know a number of people who know his family, and also that we have support from some prominent people in the Jewish community including a Rabbi in our (his) electorate who have grave concerns about the weaponising of the tragedy of the Holocaust by Mr Frydenberg's political supporters before the court case.

On your point about the birth registration, my understanding is that descendants (not born in Hungary) of Hungarians will, once verified (absent particular legal exclusions) have their birth registered as Hungarians and receive both a citizenship certificate and a Hungarian birth certificate (or at least be able to get one). Is that your understanding?

All the best, and I hope and trust we can continue this correspondence, as among other things it is very helpful to me to have someone with your experience and interest who is outside the political turmoil in Australia, currently in the middle of a hotly contested Federal election campaign - including this politician's seat which is my own electorate in which I am campaigning not for any candidate but for voters to vote for candidates who will take action on climate change. Mr Frydenberg is not among their number sadly. If he had been, my friend Michael would not be in this trouble.

onehsancare Member

1POSTS

2 years ago

#33

If someone could confirm my conclusion that, assuming that the other conditions are met, I will qualify for simplified naturalization, i would appreciate it.

My great-grandma was born in1875 in a town now located in Slovakia;
We have a baptismal certificate that recites her DOB;
Assume there is no other record of her birth;
She arrived in New York in February, 1899 and reported she was Hungarian;
She married a man whose ship arrived in New York in August, 1900; and
He declared he was Hungarian.

Issues I see are the possible lack of a birth certificate, no records about my great-grandfather, and the location of her birthplace in Slovakia.

Do i have a realistic chance of success?

Marilyn Tassy ViP

7136POSTS

2 years ago

#34

If someone could confirm my conclusion that, assuming that the other conditions are met, I will qualify for simplified naturalization, i would appreciate it.My great-grandma was born in1875 in a town now located in Slovakia;We have a baptismal certificate that recites her DOB;Assume there is no other record of her birth;She arrived in New York in February, 1899 and reported she was Hungarian;She married a man whose ship arrived in New York in August, 1900; andHe declared he was Hungarian.Issues I see are the possible lack of a birth certificate, no records about my great-grandfather, and the location of her birthplace in Slovakia. Do i have a realistic chance of success? -@onehsancare

IDK but I asume every paper you have that is in English will have to be legally translated into Hungarian for them to expect it. Signed by the translator etc. with all the offical seals stamped on.

I had to have everything translated from English into Hungarian just for a resident permit.

Best wishes.

1 member reacted to this post

zif Serial expat

624POSTS

2 years ago

#35

You have essentially no chance of being a Hungarian citizen by verification for all sorts of reasons I'm too lazy today to set out.

There is a possibility you might qualify for Simplified Naturalization; church records before 1895 (1900 in Croatia) are official birth records.

However, in addition to a full chain of birth and marriage certificates showing your descent from your Hungarian ancestor, you'd have to be able to carry on a conversation in Hungarian to go the Simplified Naturalization route.

Pascal_2001 New member

5POSTS

2 years ago

#36

I am also going through the verification of citizenship process. I haven't filed anything with the embassy yet, I am currently at the stage of gathering documents.

My grandfather was a Hungarian citizen. I can get his birth certificate and marriage certificate. My grandmother, however, was stateless when my mother was born. My mother and grandmother became later naturalized Dutch citizens.

I am trying to verify the Hungarian citizenship of both my mother and myself. In order to do this, I first need to register our births in Hungary. Getting my mother's birth certificate and my grandparents' marriage certificate is easy. The problem is, that the form to register a birth in Hungary, also asks for proof of the non-Hungarian parent's nationality. They ask preferably for a passport or ID card. My grandparents passed away in the 1980s. I have no such documents.

Does anyone have experience with this? Was proof of nationality of someone's dead (grand)parents a hard requirement for registering a birth abroad? I suspect it will be very difficult to get an official document of statelessness for someone who passed away in 1983 and was not stateless anymore when she passed away.