Libya wants freedom

Clansman wrote:

And oh aye, Libya accounts for 2 % of the total worlds oil production,

As a matter of fact, it less than 2%. They are a smaller player on the world stage.

Clansman wrote:

It did (I agree) seem to rise out of nothing, one minute peace and friendship, the next civil war.

These things don't come out of nowhere; especially civil wars.

Clansman wrote:

and your anti Nato rants

Bah, don't believe everything NATO's bullshit spitting machine releases.

IMO, the main reason why this is dragging on is not because Qadaffi is a military genius but because the regieme was very well prepared for something like this happening.

I think it's very important for governments to tell people (tax payers when the majority of their taxes are being spent on military instead of re-building roads, schools and helping the unemployed!) to  spread truth and the article above goes into some detail and objectivity on what the truth on the ground "might" be vs what was sold as a quick win win situation.

Compare that to what was originaly released by the NATO bullshiting machine back in February when they said that the whole thing will be over in days because 90% of Libya's  military is retarded from the 80's, unkempt and no match for a modern fighting machine of the likes of NATO.

Anyone with minimal knowledge of the region knew that Libya's regieme was much more brutal and powerful than Tunis but the NATO bullshit machine kept touting that everyone should expect a very similar resolve to Tunis. The leaders would all hop on the next plane out as soon as bombs start falling.

After nearly 42 years in power.....they came to be at the cusp of change??? Too late. Game over. Libyans want real change that will actually trickledown to its people . For far too long has the wealth of the nation lay in the hands of a corrupt few. The sooner we are rid of him, the better.

Legacy of the Gaddafi era....making Libya synonymous with international and domestic terrorism......oh....and questionable fashion sense.

douglas1969 wrote:

Masterr wrote:

Clansman and OB, did you read Moel's article?
agreeablelife.wordpress.com-2011/03/27/libya-as-i-see-it
what did you understand from it?

Actually a very poignant post and it brings up some questions  which has been evaded and unanswered and is the source of many consiiracy theories.

Libya "was" or "seemed" to have been on the cusp of massive change, in a very good way, just before all this happened. They were pro-West, they were building ties with the West and many multi-national corporations. They were participating on massive economic discussions of how to modernize the country and make it better for all citizens and then all this happened. I find it completely mind boggling how they went from Friend #1 to Enemy #1 within a span of a week!

uefastriker wrote:

After nearly 42 years in power.....they came to be at the cusp of change??? Too late. Game over. Libyans want real change that will actually trickledown to its people . For far too long has the wealth of the nation lay in the hands of a corrupt few. The sooner we are rid of him, the better.

Legacy of the Gaddafi era....making Libya synonymous with international and domestic terrorism......oh....and questionable fashion sense.

Aiya ... and Idris was any better?

douglas1969 wrote:

uefastriker wrote:

After nearly 42 years in power.....they came to be at the cusp of change??? Too late. Game over. Libyans want real change that will actually trickledown to its people . For far too long has the wealth of the nation lay in the hands of a corrupt few. The sooner we are rid of him, the better.

Legacy of the Gaddafi era....making Libya synonymous with international and domestic terrorism......oh....and questionable fashion sense.

Aiya ... and Idris was any better?

You do seem to just want to 'bait' any anti regime people on here don't you ?. You never did answer my question about what the alternative solution to Libya's problems are, oh aye and did you serve in the armed forces at any time ?.

Clansman wrote:

You do seem to just want to 'bait' any anti regime people on here don't you ?. You never did answer my question about what the alternative solution to Libya's problems are, oh aye and did you serve in the armed forces at any time ?.

I actually did. But I did not kill anyone in a civil war -- thank god. Did you?

A solution to "what" problem exactly? Looking at the posts from recent, I see all you current ex-pats really liked it there and seems you liked it there much more than any other place to work in the Africa/Middle East regions.  Who are you comparing Libya to, other North African countries or the UK and US and Western type countries? Keep the discussion in context of Africa -- it was a much better and more stable and secure country that any other North African or African country - until it turned into another Iraq. You should be comparing Libya to Sudan, Chad, Nigeria and others in the region -- not comparing them to Germany.

Oh, you mean the problem that he is/was a dictator in power for 40+ years and there are no democratic elections and its  not  fair and not the way things should be done? So, if Libya had  still had a monarchy they would be having free "democratic elections" today? Because that's how every other Arab country with a monarchy does things, right?

And my last little blurb. I remind you that even the countries which have had recent successful violent dismemberment of existing dictators and governments (Iraq & Afghanistan) still do not have the kind of democratic elections and freedom you seem to indicate Libya will enjoy "just around the corner" right after Qadaffi is over thrown. 

Sorry to poop on your freedom parade but Libya is finished unless something really really extra ordinary happens. You are looking at at least 10 years before it's the kind of place you would want to work and live in and 20 to 30 years before it gets rebuilt and enjoys the kind of stability it had under Qadaffi.

Nice to see the Libya blog hasn't changed... all we need is for Sandman and MoEl to come join in and then everyone can get REALLY arsey...

Douglas1969, as someone who personally knows just how much work OB did to get expats out of Libya (he stayed on when everyone else had already left and bent over backwards to assist anyone and everyone that needed help)I think a lot of your comments about him are out of order and designed to antagonise.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but as has been posted many times before, this is supposed to be a site to HELP expats rather than instigate personal feuds left right and centre...

Play nice people, or Aunty Flip will set the mods on ya..

flipfinger wrote:

Nice to see the Libya blog hasn't changed... all we need is for Sandman and MoEl to come join in and then everyone can get REALLY arsey...

Douglas1969, as someone who personally knows just how much work OB did to get expats out of Libya (he stayed on when everyone else had already left and bent over backwards to assist anyone and everyone that needed help)I think a lot of your comments about him are out of order and designed to antagonise.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but as has been posted many times before, this is supposed to be a site to HELP expats rather than instigate personal feuds left right and centre...

Play nice people, or Aunty Flip will set the mods on ya..

Fair enough. But I don't feel like I insulted him. He brought up my military service (though I still can't fathom what connection does that have with what's going on today) and I replied.

p.s. i replaced my hallucinogen comment with a plausible real world reference  :-)

p.s.2 i have lots respect for anyone who helps others -- but that doesn't make their opinions or logic automatically bullet proof and correct 100%.

What freedom are the rebel forces demanding?

In my country (Wales) to all intents and purposes we claim we have democracy.  This does not mean we make choices for ourselves, we have an option of a few that make decisions for us.  We usually vote for the politicion we think will do the least harm, not who we think will do the most good.  Is this what Libya wants?

Our women faught and lost lives for thier rights, Gaddafi gives rights to, and employs women, without being told to.

Oil is cheap in Libya, thanks to Gaddafi.

Where are the people without homes in Libya?  Not now, I mean before we bombed thier houses.

Libya has an amazing standard of living, compared with the rest of Africa, including where health is concerned.

The monies from oil sold reaches the people, it does not stay with those in power as in some other countries.

I cannot speak for the Libyan population but if I lived in a similar situation I would not swap it for the sake of saying I choose who is in power.  I would not trust a person to assume Gaddafi's role.  These freedoms will be taken away without him.  Expect to live like the rest of Africa when he is finally murdered by the west.

The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Libya,  I am comfortable living in a developed world using the oil you provide.  At the moment you benefit from the sale.  Please consider who may take over when your leader is no longer with us.  Would another leader allow you a share of what is rightly yours?  Stay safe, and never stop thinking for yourselves.

Respect to all, and best wishes for the future.

Tsunami

I am afraid you have no idea at what price the Libyans used to enjoy these so-called "benefits" you talk about....
1) No freedom of speech WHATSOEVER - and by this i mean if you dared to even speak the leader's name too loudly, you "disappeared", got arrested or at the very least watched.  You wer not allowed to question ANYTHING the leader or the government did - if you did, you were considered a traitor - and at the very least put on a list, or disappeared or killed
2)  Sure on the surface things looked fine - supposedly everyone had work - but no one earned much - and everyone struggled to keep their families fed and clothed.  marriages could not take place until much later in life, as there was not enough money to support a wife and family until you reached about 40 years of age, or your family was able tyo help you.
3)  Sure they got free medical and studies - but gaddafi deliberately kept these facilities poorly stocked and of a very low standard, so that no one would rise above what he considered should be their "station" in life - any Libyan who wanted REAL medical treatment had to go to Tunisia to get it.
4) If you were talented in ANY WAY (i.e. sport, the arts, academically, etc) - you were not allowed to participate internationallyu or become famous - if you tried this you were arrested or killed.  Gaddafi went on a deliberate campaign to stifle anyone who showed promise in anything.  One sports star refused to accept this, and participated in an international competition.  Upon returnin g to his country, he was immediately arrested.
5)  On one day in 1996, gaddafi authorised the killing of 1200 people in the infamous Abu Salem prison - the reason?...as trivial as making an offhand comment about the regime, or laughing at something they said - or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time!!!
6)  Share in the profits of oil?????Since when have Libyans EVER shared in the profits?...Gaddafi has taken ALL the profits for himself and the normal people have not seen a cent of it - that is partly why they are so angry now - they found out just where all; the money in this very rich country is going to - yet they have not seen a cent of it and are kept in virtual poverty - when they should in fact be enjoying the same benfits as the UAE - they in fact have more oil than Abu Dhabi - yet look at the difference in living standards

So please my friend - do not add to our Libyan friends' distress and agony by saying what you said, or by judging them in anyway.  I was back in Libya just last week, in the eastern part of the country - and the overwhelming united message to come out of there right now is this:
"Please please tell the outside world we are NOT terrorists, we are NOT Al Qaeda - we are just simple people who want freedom" - this was said to me by an old man with desperation in his voice and tears in his eyes - but repeated in different ways by others i met along the way.

Walk even one metre in their shoes before you comment....

And please stop calling them rebels - they prefer the name "Freedom Fighters" - for that is what they are - men and women fighting for their freedom....

Thank you for your reply Jenni,

I never meant to cause any offence to you or the Freedom Fighters.

You are right that I have no idea of the price Libyans pay.  My concern is that they are unaware of the price they are about to pay.

You say that they have to wait until later to get maried.  This is not repression, it is a good idea.  In my country I have been entitled to have children from the age of 16 if it siuts my whims.  I can do so at the cost to my society and culture.  I do not think it is wrong to wait until you can afford children.

The Universities in Libya need not be as well stocked as Libyans are funded international education.  They have a better chance of getting into Cambridge than I do.

Regarding the healthcare in the UK;  Our European guests and nationals that can afford it take cancer treatment on the continent.  The UK's NHS is sever;ly underfunded.

When I say a "share", I do not mean as in stocks and shares, but the oil does fund healthcare, and as poor as the healthcare may be, it is marvellous compared to other parts of Africa.

They may be angry about how much Gaddafi takes but look at UK\US polititions.  Democracy will not stop greedy people, if anything it provides a breeding ground for selfish people.

I hope that whatever they are fighting for, they achieve, and that it works out in thier best interest.  I also hope that if they do get democracy that they do not abuse it the same way we have.  Unless they learn from our mistakes they will be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Jenni Red wrote:

Tsunami

I am afraid you have no idea at what price the Libyans used to enjoy these so-called "benefits" you talk about....
1) No freedom of speech WHATSOEVER - and by this i mean if you dared to even speak the leader's name too loudly, you "disappeared", got arrested or at the very least watched.  You wer not allowed to question ANYTHING the leader or the government did - if you did, you were considered a traitor - and at the very least put on a list, or disappeared or killed
2)  Sure on the surface things looked fine - supposedly everyone had work - but no one earned much - and everyone struggled to keep their families fed and clothed.  marriages could not take place until much later in life, as there was not enough money to support a wife and family until you reached about 40 years of age, or your family was able tyo help you.
3)  Sure they got free medical and studies - but gaddafi deliberately kept these facilities poorly stocked and of a very low standard, so that no one would rise above what he considered should be their "station" in life - any Libyan who wanted REAL medical treatment had to go to Tunisia to get it.
4) If you were talented in ANY WAY (i.e. sport, the arts, academically, etc) - you were not allowed to participate internationallyu or become famous - if you tried this you were arrested or killed.  Gaddafi went on a deliberate campaign to stifle anyone who showed promise in anything.  One sports star refused to accept this, and participated in an international competition.  Upon returnin g to his country, he was immediately arrested.
5)  On one day in 1996, gaddafi authorised the killing of 1200 people in the infamous Abu Salem prison - the reason?...as trivial as making an offhand comment about the regime, or laughing at something they said - or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time!!!
6)  Share in the profits of oil?????Since when have Libyans EVER shared in the profits?...Gaddafi has taken ALL the profits for himself and the normal people have not seen a cent of it - that is partly why they are so angry now - they found out just where all; the money in this very rich country is going to - yet they have not seen a cent of it and are kept in virtual poverty - when they should in fact be enjoying the same benfits as the UAE - they in fact have more oil than Abu Dhabi - yet look at the difference in living standards

So please my friend - do not add to our Libyan friends' distress and agony by saying what you said, or by judging them in anyway.  I was back in Libya just last week, in the eastern part of the country - and the overwhelming united message to come out of there right now is this:
"Please please tell the outside world we are NOT terrorists, we are NOT Al Qaeda - we are just simple people who want freedom" - this was said to me by an old man with desperation in his voice and tears in his eyes - but repeated in different ways by others i met along the way.

Walk even one metre in their shoes before you comment....

And please stop calling them rebels - they prefer the name "Freedom Fighters" - for that is what they are - men and women fighting for their freedom....

You are posting thing which you do not understand.

I will try to reply by item

#1 - ok. thats true. but as my post of earlier. you need to compare their "freedoms of speech" with those of other african and middle eastern countries not with the ones you have in the US and UK and whereever you are from. i am fairly certain you would get jailed and tortured if you went into Saudi Arrabia and started to publicly bad mouth the kingdom and government.

#2 - gaddafi has little to do with marriage and the dowry system. its part of the culture and religion. qaddafi does not order fathers who are marrying off young daughters to demand huge sums of gold and furniture and houses from men who are not wealthy. it is rooted in the culture, tradition and peoples.

the other items i cant even begin to try to comment on as they are very far fetched.

btw -- i fail to see how you think NATO turining Libya into another quasi Iraq is going to change diddley. When I say quasi Iraq I mean exactly what the reality of Iraq is today. The foreign soldiers are there protecting the oil installations and pipelines and their prison camps and turing a blind eye to civilins getting bombed and killed. They comletely decimated and gutted the existing government and existing power structures -- then they raised their hands and assumed a laise faire attitude towards the people with the excuse being, "sorry, you all have to figure it out how freedom and democracy is going to work for you on your own". This is exactly they risk that may happen in Libya.

douglas1969 wrote:

Jenni Red wrote:

Tsunami

I am afraid you have no idea at what price the Libyans used to enjoy these so-called "benefits" you talk about....
1) No freedom of speech WHATSOEVER - and by this i mean if you dared to even speak the leader's name too loudly, you "disappeared", got arrested or at the very least watched.  You wer not allowed to question ANYTHING the leader or the government did - if you did, you were considered a traitor - and at the very least put on a list, or disappeared or killed
2)  Sure on the surface things looked fine - supposedly everyone had work - but no one earned much - and everyone struggled to keep their families fed and clothed.  marriages could not take place until much later in life, as there was not enough money to support a wife and family until you reached about 40 years of age, or your family was able tyo help you.
3)  Sure they got free medical and studies - but gaddafi deliberately kept these facilities poorly stocked and of a very low standard, so that no one would rise above what he considered should be their "station" in life - any Libyan who wanted REAL medical treatment had to go to Tunisia to get it.
4) If you were talented in ANY WAY (i.e. sport, the arts, academically, etc) - you were not allowed to participate internationallyu or become famous - if you tried this you were arrested or killed.  Gaddafi went on a deliberate campaign to stifle anyone who showed promise in anything.  One sports star refused to accept this, and participated in an international competition.  Upon returnin g to his country, he was immediately arrested.
5)  On one day in 1996, gaddafi authorised the killing of 1200 people in the infamous Abu Salem prison - the reason?...as trivial as making an offhand comment about the regime, or laughing at something they said - or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time!!!
6)  Share in the profits of oil?????Since when have Libyans EVER shared in the profits?...Gaddafi has taken ALL the profits for himself and the normal people have not seen a cent of it - that is partly why they are so angry now - they found out just where all; the money in this very rich country is going to - yet they have not seen a cent of it and are kept in virtual poverty - when they should in fact be enjoying the same benfits as the UAE - they in fact have more oil than Abu Dhabi - yet look at the difference in living standards

So please my friend - do not add to our Libyan friends' distress and agony by saying what you said, or by judging them in anyway.  I was back in Libya just last week, in the eastern part of the country - and the overwhelming united message to come out of there right now is this:
"Please please tell the outside world we are NOT terrorists, we are NOT Al Qaeda - we are just simple people who want freedom" - this was said to me by an old man with desperation in his voice and tears in his eyes - but repeated in different ways by others i met along the way.

Walk even one metre in their shoes before you comment....

And please stop calling them rebels - they prefer the name "Freedom Fighters" - for that is what they are - men and women fighting for their freedom....

You are posting thing which you do not understand.

I will try to reply by item

#1 - ok. thats true. but as my post of earlier. you need to compare their "freedoms of speech" with those of other african and middle eastern countries not with the ones you have in the US and UK and whereever you are from. i am fairly certain you would get jailed and tortured if you went into Saudi Arrabia and started to publicly bad mouth the kingdom and government.

#2 - gaddafi has little to do with marriage and the dowry system. its part of the culture and religion. qaddafi does not order fathers who are marrying off young daughters to demand huge sums of gold and furniture and houses from men who are not wealthy. it is rooted in the culture, tradition and peoples.

the other items i cant even begin to try to comment on as they are very far fetched.

btw -- i fail to see how you think NATO turining Libya into another quasi Iraq is going to change diddley. When I say quasi Iraq I mean exactly what the reality of Iraq is today. The foreign soldiers are there protecting the oil installations and pipelines and their prison camps and turing a blind eye to civilins getting bombed and killed. They comletely decimated and gutted the existing government and existing power structures -- then they raised their hands and assumed a laise faire attitude towards the people with the excuse being, "sorry, you all have to figure it out how freedom and democracy is going to work for you on your own". This is exactly they risk that may happen in Libya.

Douglas, I was replying to Tsunami - but will answer you as well.

1)  I lived in Tripoli until after the start of the war, and have many Libyan friends still inside the country, so I do know what i am talking about.
2) I am an African, from South Africa - so i also know all about the deprivations in other parts of Africa, including South Africa.
3) I am not trying to compare anything, simply tell it like it is and was inside Libya.
4)  I didnt say that Gaddafi had anything to do with marriage traditions per se - however, the fact that they are unable to afford to get married until late in life IS a direct cause of the deprivation he has placed on the people.  Whether later marriage is good or bad is beside the point - the fact is that the people are unable to marry when and as they want to, because of the financial burden.
5)  None of the other things are far fetched - they actually happened - I am not just pulling things out of the air.  These are actual things that Gaddafi did and is still doing to his own people.  For example - one of my friends' father was one of the 1200 killed in Abu saleem prison in 1996.  Right now there are 42000 people being held prisoner in Abu Saleem prison in Tripoli - and the recent so-called "pro-Gaddafi" demonstration in Tripoli was coerced by Gaddafi, as he promised all those with family memebers in the prison, that if they came out in support of him, their family mrmbers would be freed!!!  However, as usual he has not kept his promises...
5)  Strange as it may seem - the Libyans actually WANT Nato's help with air strikes, (though not boots on the ground) and love it every time Nato bombs Tripoli, because it means they have some protection against Gaddafi and his goons - dont believe what you hear on the news about Nato targeting civilians - this is just more of Gaddafi's propaganda to attempt to gain sympathy from the west.

Jenni, stories such as those have been circulating for years and years, (as far back as I can remember back in the 70's and 80's) as well as similiar stories about similar events occuring in  Egypt and other Arab countires. Frankly, I find these stories contribute greatly to stereotyping and villainizing of many different Arab peoples and their governments in the eyes of a many Westerners who have never met any of these peoples or set foot on their soil.

If you beleive that 1,200 people could have been killed and the word not gotten out? Yet NATO justified attacking Libya over 100-150 people killed? If you believe that with all the foreign Western reporters wandering around Libya now looking for anything to write a hot story about, they would not grab a sniff of how people are getting blackmailed to show up and pretend to be Qadaffi supporters?

Anywyas, this discussion is besides the point. You can't justify how  NATO swarming Libya is going to make a difference for the local peoples? If you follow the events you can clearly see that already NATO are slowing making their case that air campagn is  not enough and rebels are too weak and inept to make a change on their own.

There will be foreign troops on the ground; of that I can guaranee you.  And once they land, they will not leave quickly. Of that I can also guarantee you.

Tsunami@AO wrote:

You are right that I have no idea of the price Libyans pay.  My concern is that they are unaware of the price they are about to pay.

No one knows or can predict what the price is going to be. You will know many many years in the future.

However, based on the fact that this is not uncharted territory for NATO, they have been involved in similar events over the past 2 decades a number of times, you should be able to roughly guesstimate how long it might last and what the outcomes might be.

Thus far, they have always gone in guns-a-blazing and turn everything upside down, then they sit back and claim that they can't get involved anymore and it's a "local matter" and they just sit around and watch while the local population go on killing each other.

Tsunami@AO wrote:

The Universities in Libya need not be as well stocked as Libyans are funded international education.  They have a better chance of getting into Cambridge than I do.

Higher education (colleges and universities) are in constant need of funding and are in some respects run a little like a business. Foreign students pay twice as much as local students so there will always be a bit of a push to get more foreign students in to increase funding to help maintain the university and keep tuitions low.

Also, universities in Libya and other Arab countries are very very differently run, organized and staffed.  You are going to be very hard pressed to find a top notch professor who fought her/his way to the top of an ivery league university and maybe  spent their entire career researching a field to take a teaching post at a university in Libya. It would be career suicide for them.

A bit of a vicious circle I am afraid.

douglas1969 wrote:

uefastriker wrote:

After nearly 42 years in power.....they came to be at the cusp of change??? Too late. Game over. Libyans want real change that will actually trickledown to its people . For far too long has the wealth of the nation lay in the hands of a corrupt few. The sooner we are rid of him, the better.

Legacy of the Gaddafi era....making Libya synonymous with international and domestic terrorism......oh....and questionable fashion sense.

Aiya ... and Idris was any better?

Idris wasn't summarily executing students in basketball stadiums. Or blowing passenger planes out of the skies.

Douglas- Any expat who has ever worked in Libya recently will tell you.......despite the overwhelming wealth that Libya has.....you'lll barely see it on any street in Tripoli or elsewhere. Potholes everywhere....sewage spewing directly into the sea....no real public transportation to speak of......i could go on for years.....

Wales is nothing like Libya. Sure my grandparents were beaten for speaking Welsh by the English and I resent this. But it is on a different scale to Libya.

Are you wondering why Libya? 

If you have not lived there do you really care?

I would say that anyone who has spent time in Libya talking with the people they will understand how deeply the society needs and demands peaceful change.

Of course there are connected people everywhere and so most are guarded in what they say.

But it is easy to know what these people want and need.

A capitalist peaceful economy and a sporting and entertaining open society that rewards endeavour.

To get this there must be elections and change.

Saudi is irrelevant to this topic. They are part of the problem. They should not be a part of the solution.

From clerics I talked with who were prepared to talk, from boxers on the street who are now probably dead or freedom fighters, the country is a total shambles.

As evidenced by Tripoli residents occupying unfinished apartments in the two weeks before it all kicked off. This followed what the leader said about relocating property owners following the demolition of their homes.

UEFA we never met but I played football in Libya with the locals as we know it is a s h i t hole that deserves more.

Maybe we can have a kick about when we're all back. In a proper park even!

uefastriker wrote:

Douglas- Any expat who has ever worked in Libya recently will tell you.......despite the overwhelming wealth that Libya has.....you'lll barely see it on any street in Tripoli or elsewhere. Potholes everywhere....sewage spewing directly into the sea....no real public transportation to speak of......i could go on for years.....

Thanks for writing this, uefastriker - I can only say a very big AMEN to that!!!  The more I saw, the more I realised what the Libyans were suffering, just in their daily lives - and now that some at least are free and not afraid to speak anymore (I mean those in the east of the country, or those who escaped the country years ago, in fear of their lives), there are sooooo many stories being told of atrocities we in the west can only imagine.....believe me, these are NOT just "stories"....the Libyan people have been systematically and deliberately destroyed or "disappeared" over the years...Gaddafi has never loved the Libyans - he hates them - and has only ever wanted the country's wealth for himself and his cronies - and if anyone dared to disagree in any way - he simply confiscated their property, "disappeared" them - or killed them, both inside and outside the country.....

Just found something written by a Libyan father who has had to endure 42 years of hell under this evil dicatator....listen to what he has to say...
facebook.com/notes/the-free-generation-movement-%D8%AD%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AC%D9%8A%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AD%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B1/thoughts-of-a-father-%D8%A3%D9%81%D9%83%D8%A7%D8%B1/120009948093633

Les Pat wrote:

A capitalist peaceful economy and a sporting and entertaining open society that rewards endeavour.

Why does that have to be the yard stick by which you measure how life should be lived on this world?

A quick example, you have about 2.5 billion Indians and Chinese, about right? Even if you took a very conservative guesstimate and said that 10% of them are perfectly happy living in a world which does not have 500 channels on cable, starbucks and benetons and AMEX or a legal system and laws deeptly rooted in protestantism and christianity -- your yard stick is useless as a measure. 

1/2 of the EU might be bankrupt and the US economy is down the tubes. How's that capitalist peaceful society working out for you?

uefastriker wrote:

Douglas- Any expat who has ever worked in Libya recently will tell you.......despite the overwhelming wealth that Libya has.....you'lll barely see it on any street in Tripoli or elsewhere. Potholes everywhere....sewage spewing directly into the sea....no real public transportation to speak of......i could go on for years.....

Yes, but what I am saying is Libya is for Libyans. NATO is just going to rape and pillage and extort the country and the peoples in exchange of ridding Q.

uefastriker wrote:

Idris wasn't summarily executing students in basketball stadiums. Or blowing passenger planes out of the skies.

You would have to ask old Libyans what Idris did, but I am sure it wasn't all nice.

Libya is a North African country that has a lot of nationalities, tribes and a decent economy.

The intervention of Nato is not the defining moment in Libyan history.

douglas1969 wrote:

uefastriker wrote:

Douglas- Any expat who has ever worked in Libya recently will tell you.......despite the overwhelming wealth that Libya has.....you'lll barely see it on any street in Tripoli or elsewhere. Potholes everywhere....sewage spewing directly into the sea....no real public transportation to speak of......i could go on for years.....

Yes, but what I am saying is Libya is for Libyans. NATO is just going to rape and pillage and extort the country and the peoples in exchange of ridding Q.

Here we go again, now for THE LAST TIME, I will ask you, apart from NATO intervention to stop a whole scale massacre, what would you suggest the international community have done ?.

Oh and your nationality has a huge bearing on your attitude towards NATO/UN, you say you are a Yugoslavian, which part may I ask? Libya is NOT Iraq (first war was 'based' on the illegal invasion of Kuwait, the 2nd was a farce and a massive mistake), nor is it Afghanistan which under the Taliban were helping to hide international criminals, and sponsoring terrorism. The government their refused women the right to education, and even went as far as banning the flying of kites FFS.

You are an embittered individual, who should really be asking yourself how your country got itself in the state that it did, and was only salvaged partly due to the intervention of the UN.

Oh good grief... surely it's time for this thread to go?  While i'm all for healthy debate, it has now descended into name-calling and shouting (albeit the quiet kind, not in my earhole, just in caps) not to mention re-quoting of entire posts and frankly isn't providing any ASSISTANCE to anyone here, other than perhaps allowing everyone to vent the current day's roadrage...

Gentlemen / ladies, perhaps it's time to accept that there are some points you simply will not agree on, accept that everyone has a right to their opinion, shake hands (metaphorically) and move on.  I'd much rather know what is currently happening in Tripoli to my friends and former home than read an on-screen barney!  And before I get flamed by someone spouting 'well don't read it then' perhaps you should take a moment and read what this site is actually for. 

Help, for expats, by expats. 

Love and kisses to you all

Clansman wrote:

douglas1969 wrote:

uefastriker wrote:

Douglas- Any expat who has ever worked in Libya recently will tell you.......despite the overwhelming wealth that Libya has.....you'lll barely see it on any street in Tripoli or elsewhere. Potholes everywhere....sewage spewing directly into the sea....no real public transportation to speak of......i could go on for years.....

Yes, but what I am saying is Libya is for Libyans. NATO is just going to rape and pillage and extort the country and the peoples in exchange of ridding Q.

Here we go again, now for THE LAST TIME, I will ask you, apart from NATO intervention to stop a whole scale massacre, what would you suggest the international community have done ?.

Oh and your nationality has a huge bearing on your attitude towards NATO/UN, you say you are a Yugoslavian, which part may I ask? Libya is NOT Iraq (first war was 'based' on the illegal invasion of Kuwait, the 2nd was a farce and a massive mistake), nor is it Afghanistan which under the Taliban were helping to hide international criminals, and sponsoring terrorism. The government their refused women the right to education, and even went as far as banning the flying of kites FFS.

You are an embittered individual, who should really be asking yourself how your country got itself in the state that it did, and was only salvaged partly due to the intervention of the UN.

I just pray to God that your country with you and your family in it will be saved in the same way as Serbia was in 1999, by NATO. And stop shaking your head, it makes really loud sounds.

Point taken Flip, since I know you and my mate 'Alpha' I will keep my gob shut. Info on Regatta sketchy, some houses looted, others untouched (source local workmate of mine), Will let you know if I find anything else out.

Clansman wrote:

..apart from NATO intervention to stop a whole scale massacre..

Okay... so lets go around again.. they manage to stop the massacre of 150 people by ensuring 150,000 get massacered.

.. your nationality has a huge bearing on your attitude towards NATO/UN,

Pure rubbish. I emigrated out of the country long before the civil wars started, and besides, NATO didn't split up Yugoslavia -- the Yugoslavs did. But you are right in one respect, I do believe that history repeats itself and I have little faith that the results of this NATO intervention will be any different than previous interventions.

you say you are a Yugoslavian, which part may I ask?

1/2 from the middle and 1/2 from the far north and all has little to do with Libya and the it's peoples.

You are an embittered individual, who should really be asking yourself how your country got itself in the state that it did, and was only salvaged partly due to the intervention of the UN.

Yeah, I know, poor pitiful me, all jaded and embittered and refusing to ride the NATO rainbow of love and turn the entire planet into one big shopping mall.

I leave you with a famous quote, "The road to blind optimism is littered with flattened squirrels with no nuts!"

LOL

I'm a perfectly nice person.  I have no idea what you're talking about.



Had an email telling me my stuff has apparently been packed up by Waha.. how true that is I don't know.  I won't hold my breath, if it's gone its gone.  Such is life.  Now just have to stop buying small appliances for the new flat and then i'll be able to buy more shoes!! Yay!

And btw, when are you and the Mrs coming to visit?  I promise me and Alpha (he wishes lol) will attempt good(ish) behaviour, honest guvnor!

Well,folks after having read your diverse [yet all so very poignantly caring for the LIBYAN cause] point of view and having stayed for a year + with my wife & kiddo before eventually evacuating on 25th of May 2011 to INDIA via TUNISIA ;WE ONLY WISH FOR THIS MADNESS TO END!
In the history of world INDIA perhaps has singularly unfortunate in having been a witness to bloodiest bifurcation in 1947 [leading to carving out of two nations i.e PAKISTAN & INDIA]and subsequent creation of a third nation, Bangladesh in 1971...all after having paid a real heavy price in terms of colossal loss to life & property!? My parents were barely 7 & 12 years old,respectively whence they were forced to flee from West Pakistan to INDIA and lost most of their family & belongings besides being tagged as refugees for life.It's been uphill climb ever since!
The LIBYAN tangle to me is akin to a blood fued between brothers and believe you me freinds whence I say that which ever side may reign supreme but the blood soiling the earth in LIBYA is that of a LIBYAN ARAB!!So who is the bloody winner in the end....NONE what so ever.Some how any redrawing of boundaries hurts me deeply and since we had an apartment overlooking omar mukhtar street in a typical LIBYAN neighborhood in heart of TRIPOLI hence I can vouch for the sweet natured innocence that most of LIBI's were blessed with.We really miss our stay in LIBYA....climate,people,cafe's in gargarish / hayulandalus,my son's school GEMS-IST ,varied expat meeting/gatherings,our umpteen Libyan friends......!
Oh,how we wish for normalcy to revert back real ASAP and I never have believed in WAR to a be a solution ; it is only a catalyst/tool that perhaps forces the warring factions to eventually come down to the negotiating table by highlighting the very futility of this bloodshed/bath???
.....let us hope the dawn of new peace descends on LIBYA real soon!
.........we really miss our LIBYAN sojourn!!

mintoo wrote:

.........we really miss our LIBYAN sojourn!!

We all do but it's not going back to the way it was, ever! The reason you and all the other expats were really living and working there was because Libya had a GDP of over 10% and was spending money like crazy trying to modernize itself and get out of dependence -- $700 to $800 billion plan projections to modernize the country into which every company was trying to bite a chunk out of.

Once this is over Libya will be another Sudan.

After reading all the above comments, as a Libyan who lived most of his life there, I would like to mention few things.
- Idris was far better than Qaddafi, he was working hard on improving everything in Libya, there was a real nice simple way of life during his era. once he was hearing loud demonstrators in front of his residence and when he asked what are ppl shouting of they told him they are saying: we prefer the devil instead of Idris, so when he heard this the only reaction was saying: AMEN.
and his wish came true for 42 years. it is unfair to compare between Idris and Qaddafi.
-  Please do not compare the situation in Libya to other countries, every conflict in every country has its own circumstances and completely different story. it is the only one that involves the president killing his own ppl and calling them rats just bcs they demonstrated and said we had enough.
- Mentioning ENOUGH, guys if you were aware of the total number of crimes and the brutality of Qaddafi during the last 42 years and the way he controlled the country, which can be written in hundreds of pages, you would have said: how did you manage to postpone this uprising till now? one day things will appear on surface and you will understand what has led to this situation.
- for the person who said Libya was in a very good situation comparing to other African countries. Libyan should be compared considering its wealth and population, not its location.
did you know that the infrastructure was far better in the past than now, we Libyans keep repeating that the country was put in reverse gear for a long time, we had a Railway network in the past, it doesn't exist now, we had public transportation in the past, we don't have now, there were loads of public and educational services, school students used to to get free meals and salaries for high school and uni student.
security, education, and health services were much better in the past. Libya has got no postal addresses at all, can u imagine that? for over 30 years there was no building permissions for ppl to build new houses, and even the government did not build new residential areas for ages, and if did, the priority to own a property goes to qaddafi supporters, over 90% of Tripoli's expansion for the last 20 years was built with no permissions and can be demolished at any time.
- Unemployment rate just before the uprising was 28% in Tripoli which had the least rate in Libya, use your imagination for other cities.
- concerning NATO, I was in Libya till the end of April, u cant imagine how desperately we were waiting of them to start bombing Tripoli, ppl go over the roofs to watch in a huge relief when they hear the explosions, some are 1 km from where i live and we were so excited, i know this is weird, but u cant imagine how desperate Libyans are to get protected from qaddafi, and no civilians were injured by NATO. there were photos released by NATO showing words of appreciation to NATO were written on top of roofs and on roads in a big font to be seen by satellites.
- for ppl who claim that Libya is destroyed and wont be back as normal, i ask them to see the cities that have manged to get free and how quickly improving and how they are managing everything with all the problems they are facing, you will know that there will be a promising future without qaddafi for Libya, and all Libyans believe in this.

mancunian, yy suggestion to you is to stop using google and twitter and wikipedia (which can be manipulated 1,001 ways upside down by any interested parties) but try doing searches in academic journals which deal with the subject, something like JSTOR or something. Try a search for "Idris, Libya, Imperialism, Revolution" and see what comes up circa '73 '74.

Qaddafi is no saint, but IMO, has much more in common with the common Libyan than Idris. Idris was a fake monarch instilled by foreigners to secure foreign interests. Many similar stories to him in other post-Ottoman countries, and in almost all cases, they were all over thrown by the locals. Had Qaddafi not rid Idris someone else would have.

Umm... Douglas... did you miss the bit about Mancunian actually being Libyan?

Meant in the nicest possible way... it's all very well to tell people what your opinion is, but surely it's a bit ridiculous to tell a person who is actually Libyan what is more in common with 'the common Libyan'?  Surely, as a Libyan themselves, they would have more of a clue than you?

As Mancunian hasn't stated his age either, it may also be wrong to assume that he has no information regarding the things that happened in 73 & 74..

But i'm sure you boys can sort this out amongst yourselves...

fingerfliper, yeah, i saw mancu was libyan. but that does not give 'em carte blanche to re-write history based on no facts. It would need much more to prove that Idris was a great ruler and treated his people fairly than the fact that he was not Qaddafi.

douglas1969 wrote:

fingerfliper, yeah, i saw mancu was libyan. but that does not give 'em carte blanche to re-write history based on no facts. It would need much more to prove that Idris was a great ruler and treated his people fairly than the fact that he was not Qaddafi.

Sorry but once an @rse always an @rse,, you seem to claim you know the country better than it's people, oh how I would love to meet up for our 'political debate'. You left 'your country' (which no longer exsits by the way) but 'managed to do 'national service', don't judge others by your own pitiful anti NATO agenda.The ones who stay behind in my '2nd country' to fight for what they believe in are the ones I respect (in a weird way also pro regime supporters). Stick to being a conscript with no active duty and no combat experience and an opinion that will garner very little support on here.

Apologies in advance to Flip & Alpha, and all my Libyan friends for my rant.

douglas1969 wrote:

fingerfliper, yeah, i saw mancu was libyan. but that does not give 'em carte blanche to re-write history based on no facts. It would need much more to prove that Idris was a great ruler and treated his people fairly than the fact that he was not Qaddafi.

UN-believable!!!  Are you ACTUALLY claiming to know Libya better than the LIBYANS????!!!!!  Mancunian is NOT saying Idris was great - just that he was BETTER!!  It doesnt take a lot to be better than Qaddafi, believe me.  Have you ever even stepped onto Libyan soil?...or lived there?....What absolute arrogance, to put down a Libyan about his own country - present and past.......