Fluoride: exposure limits, in tea, conspiracy

428POSTS

8 years ago

I'm mentioning a subject related to tea (which I write a blog about) which is also not only related to tea. Per an online discussion I found out there is fluoride in tea, and researched how much. That led to reviewing how much fluoride is added to municipal water, and the recommended exposure limits, and to lots on health concerns, or even speculation about government conspiracy.

Given all that scope it's hard to make a long story short. The second post might work better as a summary since I distilled lots from the first into basics for a site I contribute to (TChing). I'll mention a few points here, basically repeating that, so if someone wants to skip the part only and not read further they'll catch some of the point.

-fluoride supports teeth health. Seems funny mentioning that, but people do reject it, based on what new-age health sites tell them. This is concluded based on studying cities next to each other that treat or don't treat water, with the original trend figured out from observing dental care patterns in places with naturally high levels in water sources.

-fluoride occurs naturally in some water sources and in tea. Related to the health risks about addition of fluoride there's actually more risk from a natural source being high because treated levels are .7 to 1.2 mg / liter (or ppm; it's the same thing), and natural sources can be over 10 mg / liter. Tea varies from .5 mg / liter to up to over 3.

-daily limit: the standard recommended daily adult limit for intake is .8 mg / kg body weight / day, over the long term (an EPA value, adjusted down from a general limit of 10 mg / day observed earlier). A 75 kg person, a good sized guy, would have a limit of 6 mg / day. Children's limits are probably more of a sensitive issue, and they're on the lower side (but none come to mind). Someone in a forum just mentioned they drink two liters of tea a day, and two liters of treated water, all at .7 mg / liter treatment, and in the end if they're over that limit depends on what type of tea they drink. The more recent table shows amounts by different types. Oddly commercial tea-bag tea is highest (at 2 to 2 1/2 mg / liter), and almost all other loose tea lower. Hei cha (Fu or Hunan brick tea) is in that same range, but hardly anyone drinks that, outside places like Tibet (I just reviewed on though; it was good).

-health risk: this is the tricky part. Under that intake limit the EPA is claiming there is no significant risk, and that might be right. It's not as if they're basing that on nothing; in 2006 they published a comprehensive summary of most of the research done on lots of possible health concerns, cited in both posts. I've read a similar study based out of Ireland, where they decided to continue treatment but lower the level. There is always a chance the standard take on risks could change, or the threshold. Two studies in China did show correlation between fluoride intake and lower IQ, and it's not completely sorted out to what degree fluoride causes pineal gland calcification, which is probably not good. The studies of dental and skeletal fluorosis are more complete and they've probably got that mostly sorted out.

-conspiracy: there isn't one clear version. Fluoride intake does lower IQ, per two limited scope studies, but it's a stretch to think the US government wants people to be more stupid. Then again that being real and effective would explain some things. A more common form seems to be that government agencies supporting the addition just don't understand the risk. It's not completely a given that they're wrong, since the research and perspective keeps evolving, but we are a few decades into closely looking into this issue.

That pretty much covers the summary. I'll cite those posts too, and would be happy to discuss this further if that's of interest.

http://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.co … rsion.html http://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.co … ch-is.html

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zeydK Active member

62POSTS

8 years ago

Thank you for that.
This is actually one of my interests and I'm glad to read the details.

bkk tea blog Serial expat

428POSTS

8 years ago

So nice to hear a genuine thanks; thanks.

There are two different guides by the EPA that really do summarize the two levels of detail, one a short summary and one a very long review of all health related research on the subject, both mentioned in both posts (I think).

I kind of sympathize with people that see this as a genuine health issue, a risk, since it is an unusual case for US local governments deciding to add a supplement to drinking water. There are real risks above a certain level of intake. The scariest risks tend to stay a bit vague in research and references (the reduced IQ and pineal gland calcification), but based on another study of high intake groups in Tibet (where they drink that one brick tea high in fluoride) it affects their bones negatively.

It's not a cause for panic, as communicated by people like David Avacodo Wolf or that Food Babe blogger, and not a conspiracy. Based only on drinking tea or on drinking treated water the risk seems low; someone doing both probably should consider it.

beppi Germany/Singapore Expert

15635POSTS

8 years ago

I also would like to thank you for this and your other, very occasional but usually well researched and informative posts. I also like tea (my favourite is Gaoshan Oolong from Taiwan, where you can smell the alpine meadows next to which it was grown), but don't have time to read your blog regularly. (And I also lived in Bangkok once upon a time.)

However, there is a typing error in your post:

bkk tea blog wrote:
-daily limit: the standard recommended daily adult limit for intake is .8 mg / kg body weight / day, over the long term (an EPA value, adjusted down from a general limit of 10 mg / day observed earlier). A 75 kg person, a good sized guy, would have a limit of 6 mg / day.

At 0.8 mg/kg, a 75kg person would have a daily limit of 60 mg. Could it be that you meant 0.08 kg/kg ?

bkk tea blog Serial expat

428POSTS

8 years ago

That's it, I was writing it from memory and slipped up by a digit. Before I would check by moving the decimal for a 100 kg person but apparently I just wrote that out.

Not to make it more complicated than it is but I've seen other recommended limits at .06-.07. The research has been going on for awhile but they can't exactly split up sets of twins and have them dosed at different fluoride levels for 20 years and then test them. They work from general studies and try to zero in on what thresholds are causing the side effects. That's no reason to be paranoid about it or take advice from the Food Babe but the specifics will keep shifting. Someday the whole water addition supplement may go away, or they might disprove most of the risk, figuring out complex causation showing up as simple results.

zeydK Active member

62POSTS

8 years ago

A good catch Beppi.

You have a good eye for the sciences and numbers.

beppi Germany/Singapore Expert

15635POSTS

8 years ago

bkk tea blog wrote:
IFluoride intake does lower IQ, per two limited scope studies, but it's a stretch to think the US government wants people to be more stupid. Then again that being real and effective would explain some things.

Tea and health aside, this is my favourite phrase in your whole message. Still makes me smile when I read it again and again!

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

8 years ago

Fluoride intake does lower IQ, per two limited scope studies, but it's a stretch to think the US government wants people to be more stupid.

Maybe. Have you seen what they have for politicians? You'd have to be pretty stupid to vote for any of them

beppi Germany/Singapore Expert

15635POSTS

8 years ago

Fred apparently didn't understand the subtleties of the passage I liked ...

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

8 years ago

#10

beppi wrote:
Fred apparently didn't understand the subtleties of the passage I liked ...

Too many cups of tea.
Ner, just my own thoughts about politicians ... most politicians.

Johncar Spain Expert

1412POSTS

8 years ago

#11

but it's a stretch to think the US government wants people to be more stupid.

I wonder how much tea their president drinks ?

bkk tea blog Serial expat

428POSTS

8 years ago

#12

Whatever went wrong with Trump it goes beyond tea. He was ideal for a reality television series, and beyond cheating most of the people he did business with his business dealings worked out ok. It's just a shame that half the US embraced his entry into politics.

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

8 years ago

#13

Tea has been a political subject for many years, a lot of that coming from the massive sacks of cash made by British traders when they stole India.
However, much as Trump bashing is a common hobby, perhaps we could restrict ourselves from naming individual people as a bunfight is likely to break out.
As a note, I can't stand the sight of the bloke but that applies just as much to Clinton and the vast majority of the rest in pretty much every country.

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

8 years ago

#14

I knew Trump would polarise opinion.
Maybe we could put this on hold .. please.

kRUBEN Banned

158POSTS

8 years ago

#15

Fred wrote:
I knew Trump would polarise opinion.
Maybe we could put this on hold .. please.

It's just old-fashioned, face-saving, (sheathed) Sabre rattling. You can bank on that!

beppi Germany/Singapore Expert

15635POSTS

8 years ago

#16

Fred wrote:
Tea has been a political subject for many years, a lot of that coming from the massive sacks of cash made by British traders when they stole India.

I am not sure if they stole India, but they certainly stole the lucrative world tea business, which previously was dominated by China. The British got hold of some tea plants and the recipe to ferment them into black tea from China, planted them in the only places within their empire with the right climate (the Darjeeling and Assam foothills of the Himalayas) and the rest is tea history.
By the way, same business model as natural (latex) rubber, where they stole rubber trees from quasi-monopolist (Portuguese) Brazil, planted them in Malaya (the Singapore Botanic Garden was founded for that purpose), let one of their chaps, called Dunlop, invent the inflatable tire and another, called Goodyear, the condom to create a market. Billions were subsequently made.

bkk tea blog Serial expat

428POSTS

8 years ago

#17

Tea history probably is a more civil tangent than politics. And it's an interesting story about the history of tea in India. Per my understanding, which is well researched but by no means a final word, the British ddid manage to get a tea plant out of China to grow in India. But they later found out that the variety of tea plants already there were better adapted to the climate than the plant from China. Most of the tea plants in China are camellia sinensis variety sinensis, and "local" plants were variety Assamica, the same as the type in Yunnan, China.

It's not simple to trace back history but the plants had most likely been brought from China around 1000 years before, or possibly earlier. Tea history goes way back. I could look up the related source to get the timing right but a relatively recent archeological find pushed cultivated tea history back from an understood 3000 years to more like 5 or 6. To date the time of cultivation they needed to find evidence that related to both the specific plant and human cultivation, specific arrangements of plant or ground elements along with human artifacts, so it took awhile for chance to turn that up.

Black tea is a relatively modern development, as far as we currently know (modern in the sense of on the order of 200 years old or less; I'm not good with retaining dates). Powdered tea and compressed tea were earlier forms, followed by green tea, then in modern times oolong and black tea. It really didn't help that the Chinese made an attempt to delete a lot of their history at one point but of course they weren't completely successful.

Priscilla ViP

42358POSTS

8 years ago

#18

Hi everybody,

Please note that some inappropriate posts have been removed from this thread.

Thank you,

Priscilla
Expat.com team

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

8 years ago

#19

The one and only tea I have ever liked is Chinese jasmine tea - seriously wonderful and great to sip with your sweet and sour chicken.
However, the British cup of char has a long and interesting history that has produced a whole cultural side avenue and even songs.

lukereg ViP

2114POSTS

8 years ago

#20

The culture of the English and their tea can be in part traced to Portugal.

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/2017082 … -obsession

beppi Germany/Singapore Expert

15635POSTS

8 years ago

#21

Fred wrote:
The one and only tea I have ever liked is Chinese jasmine tea - seriously wonderful and great to sip with your sweet and sour chicken.

I prefer Indonesian (black-tea-based) jasmine tea (Teh Bunga Melati), which is available as a soft drink called Tehbotol everywhere in the country. I make it myself (with less sugar) by steeping two tea bags (Tong Tji brand is best) in a litre of lukewarm water overnight, then adding sugar to taste and chilling it. My wife has just been to Singapore and bought all stocks she could find there, which will last us a few months.
Chinese (green- or Oolong-tea-based) jasmine tea can be made the same way, but with even less (or no) sugar - and you need good quality, not the supermarket teabag variety. I have it sent by friends from Taiwan, just like better (Gaoshan) leaf tea varieties for the Guangfu preparation method (multiple, short steepings in tiny teapots).

bkk tea blog Serial expat

428POSTS

8 years ago

#22

I looked at a few articles on black tea history and they all say different things. It's common to put the year of "invention" at 1590 and the first shipment to England at 1610, but per memory of other sources black tea wasn't making the trip that early, only green tea was. This article is probably a good example of where I picked that idea up, with the oldest actual example of tea from Britain tested as green, from 1700, with a general reference on history in China after:

https://www.bostonteapartyship.com/tea- … in-britain https://sevencups.com/learn-about-tea/black-tea/

As they mention in that second article it would be hard to say when black tea was first made because there isn't that much to oxidizing the leaves; if bruised a bit they will oxidize, and even without that step white teas can oxidize.

bkk tea blog Serial expat

428POSTS

8 years ago

#23

On the subject of jasmine black teas, I did enjoy discovering those on a visit to Indonesia. I mentioned the Tong Tji version in a post awhile back, and it was nice. I've recently tried a much better version from Vietnam though, really on a completely different level, but it's not a commercial large-scale production tea, so sort of a different thing. Compared to the nearly-free pricing in Indonesian grocery stores it's spendy but still not much as orthodox teas go (it cost about a dollar for 50 grams of the Tong Tji tea two years ago; Hatvala is selling theirs for $3.60 for the same amount).

Related to Indonesian commercial jasmine black tea a friend living there claimed he had a bad reaction to drinking it, although I forget what the symptoms were. It was something that might not connect directly, as I recall (like a skin condition?), but he kept switching his diet and other factors and eventually got around to taking a break from jasmine black tea and whatever it was cleared up. I'll ask him about it. It seemed like it couldn't be the effect of jasmine but they may have been using a chemical to help with the release of flavor from flowers that didn't agree with him.

http://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.co … etnam.html http://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.co … p-and.html

beppi Germany/Singapore Expert

15635POSTS

8 years ago

#24

The Tong Tji tea in the bags has no obvious sign of jasmine flowers or particles thereof (which would be visible due to the colour), so I assume flavouring is added - and in Indonesia (well, Asia in general, with few exceptions) it's often better not to research further about the origin of that.
It tastes good, nevertheless!

bkk tea blog Serial expat

428POSTS

8 years ago

#25

That friend said it was from drinking Tong Tji jasmine black tea. After he'd been drinking it every day for awhile he started getting cramps in his calves, leg cramps. Of course he wouldn't connect that with a tea right away but as I said he kept changing up what might be causing it until he finally got around to taking a break from that tea, and the problem stopped.

I have no idea what the component would be causing that, or if it would be something universal versus just a reaction he had. Different kinds of contaminants in different teas isn't unheard of, but just because it was a flavored tea I suspected something to do with the jasmine, maybe an agent used to help with infusion.

I'm not really the paranoid type so if I had the tea around I still might drink it, even believing it could pose a minor health risk, I'd probably just not make a long term habit of drinking it. I'm not saying what you should do, of course, just passing on where I see it. Then again I've thrown tea out before for seeming odd; it would be a judgment call. I did like that tea, and I've never experienced any reaction from any tea, they just don't always taste right.

I research teas quite a bit, and what I've seen related to teas possibly containing things that might be harmful does get a little strange at some points. The real trick is that for something like an EU food import standard limits are really clear, but move that to baselines and limits related to other places and it's not really so clear how much of what is too much.

I guess this fluoride issue ties in with that; awhile back 10 mg / day worked as a rough limit, now a current version of .08 mg / kg body weight / day might cut that back, and I've seen .06 to .07 instead, around half (depending on weight). It might drop from there, after a few more studies weigh in, and eventually it might not be added to water at all. Lots of other things aren't as clear as they might be, the influence of aluminum or lead, for example. The former is hazy as could be but how much is too much for lead may not be easy to pin down, and "none" isn't really going to work; it's around. It seems better to me to not be too paranoid about it but a little careful. And at some point to not focus on it, really, since checking test results and studies all the time would drive someone crazy.

beppi Germany/Singapore Expert

15635POSTS

8 years ago

#26

Hey John, since we're on the topic of tea here (but not fluoride - I'm going slightly off-topic):
You're living in Thailand, so you probably know the "Thai Ice Tea", a black-tea-based concoction infused with thick condensed milk and heaps of sugar, stronger than Kratingdaeng (the original "Red Bull"), right?
I always wondered about its nutty taste, which cannot come from milk or sugar. Is the tea flavoured in any way, and with what?
I once persuaded a street drinks seller to sell me a pack of the leaves, but could not find anything unusual (other than very low quality tea). What does make it nutty?

bkk tea blog Serial expat

428POSTS

8 years ago

#27

Good question. To me that typical taste as one generally encounters it relates to a mix of spices and star anise, with the latter standing out to me for being pronounced and specific. I researched the original version (before that type became a powdered, artificially flavored and colored drink) and it may have been roasted crushed tamarind seeds and orange blossoms providing the flavor in the past. I can't say for sure if it tasted similar to the modern version or not.

There are loose tea versions out there now, as you mentioned, it's just easier to find the powdered tea versions. Some of both would be artificially flavored, and it's hard to say what that would relate to. I researched an online recipe version and experimented with making it once myself, described in the following post, with one online recipe version using star anise, clove, and cardamom to achieve that spiced flavor profile: http://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.co … ratch.html

beppi Germany/Singapore Expert

15635POSTS

8 years ago

#28

I don't really think it's the spices you mention. Those are frequently added to tea in India (Masala Chai, with cow's milk) and the Middle East (without milk) and taste differently. So the nutty taste remains a mystery ...

bkk tea blog Serial expat

428POSTS

8 years ago

#29

Masala chai is typically cinnamon, ginger, cardamom, and clove, with star anise and black pepper a bit more optional. The set does overlap but it's not the same. Here in Thailand Thai tea is typically a powdered, artificially flavored and colored drink, so it's hard to get a feel for what "real" or artificial flavor ingredients are contributing what.

The versions I've tried seem to mostly taste like star anise to me, and not really much like nuts. A bit like chemicals too, like a flavored coffee or slurpee. I've had a few versions based on loose tea instead of powder but they all seem to be in the same general range. I agree there is some degree of mystery to what is in them, and they're typically not just those few spices mentioned in that one do it yourself version.