How Is This Possible?

It comes down to how much money are we going to spend on possibly saving a human life.  Shall we open the borders until we all go broke. The human race suffers from their view on what is right or wrong. The problem is both sides can be proven valid and that leads us to our moral dilemma

09/05/23 There's a reason that  "Hard cases make bad law", and the case of "ST" that Aidan in HCMC raises in post #277 is as good as good an illustration as I can think of.

Health care is a public good with limited supply -- there are only so many trained practitioners, adequate facilities, pharmaceuticals, and so on -- and unlimited demand -- virtually every person will need at least some, and many people will need a great deal, during the course of their lives.  It's an inescapable mathematical fact that any such good requires rationing, even though we find it hard to accept that emotionally.  The historical way to ration health care, by ability to pay, is so ethically odious to so many of us that a better way has to be found.  The logical, and I would contend most ethical and transparent, way would be by triage, dispensing care on the basis of likelihood of results.  Most state systems approach this, but gingerly not openly, falling back instead on opaque half-measures, especially the universally detested wait times.  In the extreme, as in this case, the system unable to triage care is forced to depend on the consent of the patient to withdraw care, and failing to obtain consent, coerces it.  Which is why we find ourselves here.

Aidan is right that cost is not mentioned anywhere in the case.  But I have no doubt that TGCampo is also right, and cost is the elephant in the room being studiously ignored.  The system apparently can't discontinue expensive and ineffective care simply because it IS ineffective and hopeless, but must obtain the patient's consent as well.  And when the patient refuses to consent, it must have the patient declared mentally incompetent, and then decide for her as if she had consented.  In this way, what starts out as a family tragedy continues to be that, with an additional affront to human dignity.

"ST" is not mentally incompetent.  She and her family are waiting for a miracle.  As a devout Christian, I believe in miracles, and don't consider waiting for one to be irrational.  But a miracle isn't medical care, and hoping for one does not require occupying a ICU bed.  Miracles can be anticipated just as well in a hospice.  Failing to have and practice a rational basis for terminating care and nothing else is what requires the system to impose the indignity of the stigma of mental illness onto this patient's already difficult death.

In closing, it's worth noting that in her unfortunate decision, Mrs. Justice Roberts left the final call, including "the family’s proposal to continue to explore the option of experimental treatment outside the United Kingdom and their extant application to vary or discharge the terms of the existing reporting restrictions order" to another judge in the Court of Protection.  So it's not over yet, regardless of what Jonathan Turley implies.  But consider the source.

Turley has a sinister reputation, not just with the Left in the United States but with elements of the Center and Center-Right as well.  He's been a consistent cheerleader for Donald Trump's attacks on the rule of law, not so different from people like John Eastman, Rudy Giuliani, and Sidney Powell.  Except he's been smarter:  with no personal involvement in coup plotting, no indictments, his support for the Big Lie has been strictly pro-bono.  Confounding life-prolonging care with "life-extending care", as he does in the piece on his website, is very much his stock in trade.

It comes down to how much money are we going to spend on possibly saving a human life. Shall we open the borders until we all go broke. The human race suffers from their view on what is right or wrong. The problem is both sides can be proven valid and that leads us to our moral dilemma
-@ab230597339

I believe that this decision is easier made in small countries. Imagine living in a country that only has 1 million inhabitants and maybe half of them are paying into the health services. Then let people vote on what the national health service shall cover. Each item covered has a direct effect on the taxes. If people decide that every treatable disease is being treated then this is fine, but they have to pay for it.

Once a country is big, the contributions to national healthcare are very anonymous.Then "somebody" pays, just not "me".

09/05/23 Once a country is big, the contributions to national healthcare are very anonymous.Then "somebody" pays, just not "me".
-@TGCampo

The countries with the most sensible plans, like Germany, have a basic but reasonably extensive package of services and treatments that are guaranteed to everyone; what individual and employer contributions don't cover, the Federal Treasury does.  Anything beyond that is only available through private supplements. 

        Question for cccmedia or anyone who has information about your mentor the Canadian James who died suddenly a few years ago.  Word was he was murdered after posting disparaging remarks about Brazil concerning the World Cup and the Olympics.  Last I spoke to him he agreed that the episode of the Simpson's which made fun of Brazil was right on.

    Question for cccmedia or anyone who has information about your mentor the Canadian James who died suddenly a few years ago. Word was he was murdered after posting disparaging remarks about Brazil concerning the World Cup and the Olympics. Last I spoke to him he agreed that the episode of the Simpson's which made fun of Brazil was right on. - @mugtech

I took a long look at that. The situation was rather bad, but not your version.

  Question for cccmedia or anyone who has information about your mentor the Canadian James who died suddenly a few years ago. Word was he was murdered after posting disparaging remarks about Brazil concerning the World Cup and the Olympics. Last I spoke to him he agreed that the episode of the Simpson's which made fun of Brazil was right on. - @mugtech
I took a long look at that. The situation was rather bad, but not your version.
- @Fred

So what is the version?

      Is it a secret?

   Is it a secret? - @mugtech

We could tell 'ya, but then we'd have to.... Well. You know😉

   Is it a secret? - @mugtech

No, it's all on a thread on this forum.

Is it a secret? - @mugtech
No, it's all on a thread on this forum.
- @Fred

Which thread?

Is it a secret? - @mugtech
No, it's all on a thread on this forum.
- @Fred
Which thread?
- @mugtech

Quite a long one with lots of info as we found it out.

Which thread?
- @mugtech

Several. See here.

Which thread?
- @mugtech
Several. See here.
- @Aidan in HCMC

         Thank you for the connection.  So there was never any update, he was murdered and no one was accused, case closed.  So sad. Glad Brazil decided Americans need a tourist visa to visit. Keeps me out.

Bittner, who is 64 and lives in Texas, used tobe in business in Romania where he hadnumerous business/banking accounts. Allparties agree that he was unaware of hisobligation to file FBAR's, the colloquial namefor a financial disclosure form reporting hisbank balances overseas. A court found himguilty of non-compliance and ordered a fineof $2.72 million US. - @cccmedia

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

I am pretty sure he has tax accountants doing his US tax returns for his business. Either way, he is culpable for his accountants' errors or misdeeds on his US tax returns.

02/01/25 Glad Brazil decided Americans need a tourist visa to visit. Keeps me out.
- @mugtech

Brazil is hardly the only country in the world with unsolved murders.  But you're right:  it probably is not for you.  People considering expat options should trust their guts, and I would never encourage anyone who had misgivings or expressed an antipathy toward Brazil to come here.  Fortunately, Brazil isn't on the way to anywhere and far away from practically everywhere, so very few people end up here accidentally, or against their will.

Longterm expats in Brazil are very much a self-selected bunch who understand that they have to adjust to Brazil because Brazil will never adjust to them.  They not only survive but thrive in the most rigorously monolingual country that I know, and with the constant cognitive dissonance of sharp contradictions among extremely fluid categories that Brazil serves up 24/7/365. 

And even then, it's possible to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  But where is that not true?

02/01/25 Glad Brazil decided Americans need a tourist visa to visit. Keeps me out.
- @mugtech
Brazil is hardly the only country in the world with unsolved murders. But you're right: it probably is not for you. People considering expat options should trust their guts, and I would never encourage anyone who had misgivings or expressed an antipathy toward Brazil to come here. Fortunately, Brazil isn't on the way to anywhere and far away from practically everywhere, so very few people end up here accidentally, or against their will.
Longterm expats in Brazil are very much a self-selected bunch who understand that they have to adjust to Brazil because Brazil will never adjust to them. They not only survive but thrive in the most rigorously monolingual country that I know, and with the constant cognitive dissonance of sharp contradictions among extremely fluid categories that Brazil serves up 24/7/365.

And even then, it's possible to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. But where is that not true? - @abthree

          I mentioned the visa because that did not used to be the case, but Brazil decided that since their citizens needed a visa to enter the USA, either the US drop the requirement or US citizens would need one.  I had been considering cruises which stopped in Brazil, but no more.  Glad it works for some.

Thank you for the connection. So there was never any update, he was murdered and no one was accused, case closed. So sad. Glad Brazil decided Americans need a tourist visa to visit. Keeps me out. - @mugtech

As was so well articulated in the post 297, people with a bad feeling about any given country would do well to avoid it.

I hunted for the thread I was referring to but I realised it was in a section inaccessible to you. That gave a lot more detail about James and his untimely demise.

Given the unfortunate events, and the minimal chance of the killers being brought to justice, it might be better to let sleeping dogs lie lest others find themselves in danger.

02/01/25      I mentioned the visa because that did not used to be the case, but Brazil decided that since their citizens needed a visa to enter the USA, either the US drop the requirement or US citizens would need one.
- @mugtech

Brazil's policy with respect to visas has always been strict reciprocity for much longer than I can remember, and my personal memories of the subject go back more that fifty years.  The countries of the European Union have visa-free entry, and so do many others.  Bolsonaro's unilateral grant of visa-free entry to citizens of countries that didn't treat Brazilians the same way was an anomaly that was never popular outside the tourist industry; the current government is just returning things to normal.