Insurance coverage in Indonesia

hi ... you should consult with an good insurance agent  .. because there are many insurance's offer same type were is health insurance .. just different price of premi .. in Indonesia have a  good insurance  provides protection 100 critical illness up to age 99 years with provisions. My advice is.. life insurance most important of other insurance such as property and others ... Critical illness cost in Indonesia  have to pay 500million IDR
regards

Sorry if my english not fluently..

Hi Fumojiki,

Based on your experience, do you have any good medical and life insurance companies to recommend?

Regards,
Hansson

“My advice is.. life insurance most important of other insurance such as property and others…”

Actually, the most essential insurance is that where one has the greatest potential for financial loss.

For a family man, yes, life insurance is critical, since obviously the loss of income from the “bread winner's” death can be catastrophic.

For a single person…life insurance is the last insurance they should consider.  Moreover, as long as one's health remains pretty good, the option of buying life insurance later is always available.

Life insurance has always been, and likely will remain, the most profitable for insurance companies…so don't be surprised that many companies push it.

I am a 64 year old retiree. I drive a bike and cannot find insurance for it. So, for me the most important was a health insurance. I looked at proposals of many companies and finally decided to take Morgan Price. I pay €2523.04 per year for a quite extensive in-patient and basic out-patient coverage. My deductable (which I could choose) is €500 per year.

Marc, that's about the same premium you could expect to pay with William Russell in the UK.  They are specialists in medical coverage for expats:

http://en.william-russell.com/indonesia … aAod7TQJ6g

Morgan Price is relatively new to the business of providing medical insurance for expats, but I understand they are a good company and that all the hospitals here in Bali will accept assignment of benefits directly from them.   

You are smart to choose a high deductible…and you could go even higher to a level you can afford.  At our age, medical insurance is primarily for catastrophic medical situations, and also of course, medical evacuation coverage, viz, to Mount Elizabeth in Singapore or Bumrungrad in Bangkok.  For example, if you increased your deductible to 1,000 Euro you might be able to save up to an additional 10% in your annual premiums. 

If you haven't already, you might also check with your agent and get a confirmation that upon reaching age 65, Morgan Price will renew your coverage.  Some of these companies terminate medical coverage at age 65…so that's something to be aware of.

Cheers!

Not yet 65 and in reasonably good health.

Very grateful for comments from various people so far on this thread. If I could get medivac airlift and/or treatment in Mt Elizabeth or similar in Singapore or Thailand even Malaysia where I have had positive experiences connected to Life/Health insurance at reasonable cost I would be interested.

Personally, I would even agree to deductible of $5000 or higher per year and/or $2500 per claim or higher. But,

And this will be surely be contested by others. I have no confidence in the bonafides of the local insurance industry and little confidence in foreign players in the Indonesian market. The insurance industry is renowned in disputing claims, often on the flimsiest of grounds, in countries with far more developed institutions of consumer protection than Indonesia.

If there are actually examples of people out there who can vouch for, with proof submitted if asked, of claims paid with little or no hassle from insurance companies then I and no doubt the silent or no so silent majority of solvent potential customers would be most interested.

In the meantime I and my family live as healthily as possible and convenient in a semi-urban society.

indostocks wrote:

And this will be surely be contested by others. I have no confidence in the bonafides of the local insurance industry and little confidence in foreign players in the Indonesian market. The insurance industry is renowned in disputing claims, often on the flimsiest of grounds, in countries with far more developed institutions of consumer protection than Indonesia.

If there are actually examples of people out there who can vouch for, with proof submitted if asked, of claims paid with little or no hassle from insurance companies then I and no doubt the silent or no so silent majority of solvent potential customers would be most interested.

In the meantime I and my family live as healthily as possible and convenient in a semi-urban society.

Yes! This is what is all really comes down to.

“If there are actually examples of people out there who can vouch for, with proof submitted if asked, of claims paid with little or no hassle from insurance companies then I and no doubt the silent or no so silent majority of solvent potential customers would be most interested.”

After two hospitalizations during my near 18 continuous years of living on Bali, all those years with medical coverage provided by William Russell Insurance, I can personally vouch for them. 

On both occasions, one being an emergency admittance, all I needed was to produce my WR insurance card, and the hospital billed WR directly.  The fact is, I never even saw, let alone signed one form.  It was all totally seamless and hastle free.       

Think about it for a minute.  If the major companies who provide medical insurance to expats, not only here in Indonesia, but the world over, were in fact in the business of denying claims…forums and blogs would be full of stories about it.  Well, that simply isn't the case.  And, it isn't the case because that is in fact not what goes on.

Beyond my own personal experiences I have been involved and have personal knowledge of the experiences of other expats with their own situations and I've never run into one situation where the insurance company involved balked over the claim, or outright refused to pay it.

"In the meantime I and my family live as healthily as possible and convenient in a semi-urban society."

That's great, but of no value in avoiding motorbike accidents or the almost 100% certainty of eventually getting bit by a dengue carrying mozzie.   

unfortunately here , insurance companies or there agents  will deny coverage after 65 or 70 , also they can cancel at the end of 1 year without reason , if you have a claim , so therefore the  insured is "up a creek without a paddle".

insurance premiums are substantially higher here than in other asian counties such as thailand ,philipines .

a sad situation.

This is true, that insurance companies aren't required to renew contracts.  This is typical world wide unless the contract includes a provision for automatic renewal.  However, with that said, any claim incurred during the contract period, and for which premiums were paid, will be honored by the insurance company, even if the claim is submitted after contract cancellation, or denied to be renewed. 

Moreover, renewal periods are at least 30 days providing the insured with plenty of opportunity to seek other coverage if desired. 

Insurance companies cannot simply cancel coverage at any time, and without reason…reason such as false statements on the insurance application. 

“insurance premiums are substantially higher here than in other asian counties such as thailand ,philipines.”

I'm not so sure that is accurate…at least not for William Russell medical insurance.  Truth is, William Russell pays out more claims for expats living in Bali for medical expenses incurred at Bumrungrad in Bangkok, or Mount Elizabeth in Singapore, than for medical expenses incurred here in Bali.   

Do you have some documentation to support that statement about premiums being “substantially higher” here in Bali?

Insurance is a problem in Indonesia, especially when you look at motor insurance.
Most motorbikes have no insurance at all, and a large proportion of car drivers run around without it, not even third party.
Motorbike insurance against theft is easy enough for a new bike, but accident cover is pretty much impossible to get.
A new car always comes with insurance if it's on credit, but is optional for a cash sale.
You normally have to ask the dealer to arrange it for you.
Most car accidents are knock for knock, but make sure you're covered against some twit on a motorbike running into you and claiming you were at fault.
As I suggested before, a dashcam won't hurt in the event of an accident, but minor details such as clear proof won't always do much to help you.

bupa has a special deal  in thailand and the philipines its around 100e per month  ,  you will find online in the expat groups .

if a person gets refused insurance here , he is screwed , ie pre existing conditions .

automatic insurance renewal is normal in europe with good companies , such as bupa.

Fred wrote:

Insurance is a problem in Indonesia, especially when you look at motor insurance.
Most motorbikes have no insurance at all, and a large proportion of car drivers run around without it, not even third party.
Motorbike insurance against theft is easy enough for a new bike, but accident cover is pretty much impossible to get.
A new car always comes with insurance if it's on credit, but is optional for a cash sale.
You normally have to ask the dealer to arrange it for you.
Most car accidents are knock for knock, but make sure you're covered against some twit on a motorbike running into you and claiming you were at fault.
As I suggested before, a dashcam won't hurt in the event of an accident, but minor details such as clear proof won't always do much to help you.

your right fred , its only possible to get total loss on motorcycles no third party risks , so for sure if they are insured when they hit you , your screwed,, I had thought in the past to get an old jeep , paint it camo and weld steel bars all around , so when they hit you no damage done !

It's really impossible to have any meaningful discussion of what company is cheaper…which is more expensive regarding medical insurance without defining the level of benefits and restrictions in the policy.  Saying that company “X” has a plan that only costs 100 Euro a month doesn't mean anything without specifics as just mentioned.

Anyone considering a medical insurance plan for themselves is wise to get quotes from a variety of well recognized companies, and also to talk to other expats.  It also doesn't hurt to check with a few of the better known hospitals in your area to see if they accept assignment of benefits from those companies you are considering, otherwise, you need to pay the hospital first, and then seek reimbursement from your insurance company.

Not covering pre-existing conditions is commonplace in individual medical insurance plans.  This provision protects the plan from what is called adverse selection.  BUPA's own medical insurance plans have this exclusion as well.  The idea is simply to not cover an illness or condition which is currently on-going.  Companies would go bankrupt doing that sort of thing, and if it were commonplace to cover pre-existing conditions, everyone's premium would need to be much higher.  Normally, the only medical insurance plans that do not have pre-existing condition exclusions are called group policies such as those issued to employers to cover their employees, or, national health care plans, as with Indonesia's own national health care plan. 

As for car insurance and homeowner's insurance...I agree that's a whole other world and here it's unique.  Aside from those who have brand new, or relatively very expensive cars, most expats I know simply don't have insurance for their cars, and I don't know any expats with homeowner's coverage.

Already checked. Renewal is possible after 65 years. Premium is independent of what happened in previous year: it is fixed for each age.
Possible deductibles are 0, 100, 250, 500 or 1000.

That all sounds reasonable.  Have you checked what your premium savings would be if you increased your deductible from 500 to 1,000 Euro?

Just got some online quotes from William Russell:

Global Health Elite BRONZE plan
US$346.17 per month

US$3,956.57 per annum

This is a fully underwritten policy quote.

Benefits of the Global Health Elite BRONZE Plan
    In-patient and day-patient hospital accommodation
    Emergency in-patient dental treatment
    Surgery, treatment and tests received whilst hospitalised
    Treatment for cancer
    Reconstructive surgery
    Renal dialysis
    Post-hospital treatment
    Emergency evacuation cover
    Psychiatric care
    Complementary medicine

Global Health Elite SILVER plan
US$547.42 per month

US$6,256.78 per annum

This is a fully underwritten policy quote.

Benefits of the Global Health Elite SILVER Plan
    In-patient and day-patient hospital accommodation
    Surgery, treatment and tests received whilst hospitalised
    Treatment for cancer
    Reconstructive surgery
    Renal dialysis
    Hormone replacement therapy
    Emergency in-patient dental treatment
    Post-hospital treatment
    Out patient treatment
    Emergency evacuation cover
    Psychiatric care
    Complementary medicine
    Well being
    War and terrorism
    Health screening

but still planning to check with some of the other companies around...

Quoted Excess/Deductible               Total Annual Premium
$5,000                                               $1,740.03
$2,500                                               $2,030.04
$1,000                                               $2,320.04
$500                                               $2,523.04
$250                                               $2,610.05
$100                                               $2,755.05
Nil                                                       $2,900.05

Marc, those reductions in premium are about what I would expect, and they seem reasonable under normal actuarial/underwriting principles. 

BTW, just so you know, that's what I used to do in my "past life"...underwrite large group medical policies for "the rock" aka The Prudential based in Newark, NJ.   

If you're thinking of increasing the deductible, be first certain to determine if that deductible is per policy period, or per incident.  Obviously it's best for you if the deductible is per policy period. 

Cheers!

It is per policy period

With that in mind...the deductible being per policy period, you might think about going full hog with your deductible, if 5,000 Euro (worse case scenario) is affordable and not going to "damage" the bank too much.  This is of course a personal decision and based on how much you are willing to gamble. 

Cheers!

A good discussion topic and very interesting information on this thread.

I found expenses incl. all care and single VIP room (not VVIP!) here in Yogya in one of the "better" hospitals came at around Rp 12 million. Have not had to do this more than twice...

My question, and this may be off topic, do expat people under 65 living here, have experience paying more in health costs than lets say Rp 40 million per year?

Am just wondering if, with present insurance costs and slowly  increasing quality of medical care here whether it really is worth insuring for so-called black swan events that require hospitalization in Singapore, Thailand or wherever to increase one's chances of survival. I think with Dengue, Malaria and such tropical diseases the locally available knowledge is sufficient to treat these maladies at low cost.

This is also an appeal for those people to name the local hospital(s) they are particularly happy with.

You raise a valid point about the lower cost of medical care…as well as its slowly improving quality for us here in Indonesia.  And yes, the incidences of required medical care costing more than 40 million are indeed less likely for us living here as opposed to living in the US where that amount wouldn't cover a single day in a hospital.

With the two hospitalizations I myself experienced, only one of them which required surgery and several days in hospital, ran over 40 million. 

That all being said, as we advance in age, the chances of “Black Swan” events increases year by year.  That's simple actuarial fact, and there's no getting around it.  Moreover, and again because of our aging bodies, injuries caused by accidents are likely to be more severe, and to cause more damage, particularly with our bone structure.  Add to that equation the increased chances of encounters with cancer and cardio issues, and this only compounds the increased likelihood of us older folks, sooner or later, encountering a Black Swan event.

This is why, for those of us who can afford to handle very large deductibles that I only advocate medical insurance precisely for those events.  For example, with Marc's insurance, if he increased his deductible to $5,000, his annual premium would drop to only $1,740.00 with presumptive full coverage of all expenses for the policy year in excess of that amount being paid in full by his insurance carrier. 

Another point to consider is the emergency medical evacuation feature included in most all of these private medical insurance plans.  The last time I was involved with one of those, and that was some years ago, this cost $35,000 for the evacuation from Bali to Singapore.  For expats living in Jakarta, where our best hospitals are to be found, the “appeal” or peace of mind having that coverage is less, and for valid reasons.  Is it important for us to have that option?  Tough question, and obviously a personal decision. 

Here in Bali we have a number of excellent hospitals available.  The two that I personally rate the highest are Siloam and Bali Royal Hospital.  Others would add the international wing of RS Sanglah to that list…I haven't only because I have no personal experience with them. 

Finally, and just to put any concerns to bed, I don't now, nor have I ever been involved here in Bali with the sale, advocacy, or any association marketing medical insurance to expats.   My outspokenness about this topic steams only from my many years (in my previous life) where I was a professional in this field…thus having seen countless times the financial devastation to families brought on by lack of insurance. 

Cheers!

I never really thought of Dengue as being all that serious say as Malaria. You can get it tested at any doctor and the cure is to drink a couple of liters of water a day and lots of guava juice, while taking Panadol constantly for a couple of weeks. There's no need to go to hospital to be treated unless you are a young child or frail old person and that is mainly to ensure that you get plenty of liquids into your body. I picked it up in Bali a few years back but was still able to travel back to Malaysia and then on to Bandung for a holiday in bed. My wife got it a couple of months back but it wasn't all that severe.

Now malaria is something I wouldn't want to get. A long time ago, HQ used to advise us to drink Schweppes Indian Tonic Water because it contained Quinine. Wonder if they still recommend it?

I am still under my Malaysian Medical Insurance Policy with Pacific which costs me about RM5,500 per year for the wife and two kids which is very affordable and covers a private room at Gleneagles and Pantai Hospitals. That is great for things like cancer, slipped discs, knee and joint problems etc. But still gotta get a policy here in Indonesia so am interested to see any recommendations. Gotta get life insurance too quite soon.

@ ubudian
As for car insurance and homeowner's insurance...I agree that's a whole other world and here it's unique.  Aside from those who have brand new, or relatively very expensive cars, most expats I know simply don't have insurance for their cars, and I don't know any expats with homeowner's coverage

for my family

health care ,bpjs and allianz

car ,zurich all risks

house contents  allianz fire and theft

life insurance   sun life .

Thanks Tel522. That's good info. I also am looking at Allianz. Will check out Sun Life (are they in Indonesia?)

I used to think the same way about Dengue until I sat my whole family down and watched a new hour long documentary about it. 

There are four strains of Dengue, and each one has its own particular and life threatening aspects…the most deadly being hemorrhagic shock.  Unfortunately, and this would be echoed by any doctor I know…it's the complacency about Dengue which most often ends up with it being lethal…lethal at any age.

In Bali, Dengue is getting quite serious.  While it used to be that only a small fraction of those I know have had it, these days its only a small fraction of those who haven't had it.   This is particularly problematic in Ubud...as noted by this article:

http://bali.coconuts.co/2016/05/11/deng … sease-year

Tel...you are well covered, no doubt about that!  As I've "said" all throughout this thread, these decisions are all personal and it's up to each of us to determine those risks for which we can "self insure" (a euphemism for no insurance) and those risks which we cannot afford to self insure.   

Cheers!

Yep four strains, and I heard that once you've got one then you won't get that strain again. Hopefully I won't get that serious one....sounds pretty nasty!!!

@ ubudian
It's really impossible to have any meaningful discussion of what company is cheaper…which is more expensive regarding medical insurance without defining the level of benefits and restrictions in the policy.  Saying that company “X” has a plan that only costs 100 Euro a month doesn't mean anything without specifics as just mentioned.

unfortunately there are quite a number of expats on these islands who cant afford the expensive premiums for health insurance , thailand and the philipines and presumably malaysia <see hanson > make allowances for that with budget policies to encourage the less well off expat pensioners to have cover also there own people.

over the last couple of weeks in bali there has been fundraising online to pay the medical bills for a couple of ausies 1 who was attacked in his home and has now sadly died , and another who attempted  to take his own life and is in a coma .

These unfortunate guys had no insurance and im sure there are many more like them.

Hansson wrote:

Thanks Tel522. That's good info. I also am looking at Allianz. Will check out Sun Life (are they in Indonesia?)

ya sun life are here, reasonable premium and good term life insurance

tel522 wrote:

Hansson wrote:

Thanks Tel522. That's good info. I also am looking at Allianz. Will check out Sun Life (are they in Indonesia?)

ya sun life are here, reasonable premium and good term life insurance

Great! Thanks again!

Regards,
Hansson

Another article about Dengue in Bali:

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016 … -bali.html

“unfortunately there are quite a number of expats on these islands who cant afford the expensive premiums for health insurance , thailand and the philipines and presumably malaysia <see hanson > make allowances for that with budget policies to encourage the less well off expat pensioners to have cover also there own people.  over the last couple of weeks in bali there has been fundraising online to pay the medical bills for a couple of ausies 1 who was attacked in his home and has now sadly died , and another who attempted  to take his own life and is in a coma. These unfortunate guys had no insurance and im sure there are many more like them.”

My personal position on this has been the same from the first day I moved to Bali.  Quite simply, an expat living in Bali who is unable to take personal responsibility for their life here on Bali…including financial responsibilities, has NO business being an expat on Bali (or anywhere else).

I don't believe anyone has a “right” to be an expat wherever they desire.  Being an expat is a privilege, not a right.  Nothing drives me more nuts than to listen to some newly arrived expat going on and on about their belief in self entitlement to live here in Bali, and that somehow the government should do more to help them out. 

My own charity endeavors begins, and ends with locals…period and no exceptions.

But that's just me.

And back to Dengue for a second…it's the second time one gets it that is the worse, and the most dangerous.  And it doesn't matter which of the four strains you got first, and which of the remaining three strains you get the second time.

Ubudian wrote:

My personal position on this has been the same from the first day I moved to Bali.  Quite simply, an expat living in Bali who is unable to take personal responsibility for their life here on Bali…including financial responsibilities, has NO business being an expat on Bali (or anywhere else).

My own charity endeavors begins, and ends with locals…period and no exceptions.

Agree with you 100%, not just for Bali but for anywhere in Indonesia.

Furthermore, and this has been mentioned recently in the discussion on BPJS, Indonesia is a lot less expensive to live in compared to other Asian countries. The fiscal requirements to obtain a Visa to live here is very cheap compared to most other countries in Asia. So if you cannot afford the premiums for medical insurance then you may very well be better off living back home where all medical treatment might be free.

I did not take insurance against the costs of dengue, or a skin rash, or ...
But I live in Bali with the most egoistical and dangerous drivers in the world. A friend of mine has an accident in which he breaks his arm (slightly complicated fracture) and the hospital charges 150 million!. I had an accident and broke a small bone in my foot. Hospital bIll was 25 million.

I normally pay a few million each year for medical examinations, doctor and medicine. But I have insurance to avoid being bankrupt if I would have something serious. You can compare it to an insurance to cover fire. You probably never paid anything for a fire in your home, but you have insurance for the case there would be a fire that destroys your home.

Kind regards

Marc

of course expats must budget in the cost of health insurance because it is not the responsibility of the state where they choose to live to pick up the bill.

but the reality here is another in some cases , as I have mentioned , life can "throw you a curve ball" as with the 2 previous cases , they got on the wrong side of divorce and lost everything including their respective houses.

I am not trying to justify their actions because it is irresponsible.

but ya s..t happens

“but the reality here is another in some cases, as I have mentioned , life can "throw you a curve ball" as with the 2 previous cases , they got on the wrong side of divorce and lost everything including their respective houses.”

If you're a foreign male married to an Indonesian female, there is no “right side of divorce” but…that should be taken into account and seriously considered before putting bread in her oven, or marrying her. 

As bad as divorce might seem here, you ought to experience it in the US where not only do you lose everything, you're an indentured servant for the rest of your life. 

Bali has a particular way of making brain dead idiots out of normally very sane and level headed guys.  In a very real way, Bali is a narcotic, and she is certainly a seductive mistress.  For some, she (Bali) is just way too much for them to handle. 

When it comes to expats on Bali, my favorite line is "many are called, but few are chosen."  Indeed, the attrition rate among expats on Bali is mind blowing.

The Malaysian policy interests me.

Any idea whether if they would accept KITAP holders ie non-Malaysian residents as policy holders? If not I could contact them directly for a reply to this question.

I'll pm you the contact for an agent. You can whatsapp her all your questions. She was perfectly willing to continue my policies even though I had moved to Indonesia so perhaps she can help.