Electric cars (EV) Pros and Cons?

          Here in Baguio it would increase the overall health of the community if jeepneys were electric powered.

Not just Baguio mugteck. Making the leap/investment for some isn't so bad but the general operators here of Jeepney's and Tricycles the cost is too high. India seems to be moving fwd with EV's to reduce pollution.

I suppose for me a trade off, investing 1.4M in house solar that works perfectly and no power bills/emissions with an eventual payback versus buying an Ionic 5 @ 3.6M that will depreciate big time to save 6,000 klicks of fuel a year.

Commuter/transport vehicles could be viable with such an investment given the distances/frequency travelled.

Time will tell.

Cheers, Steve.

The big problem at the moment is the cost of Lithium ion batteries. There's a lot of work being put into sodium ion, but they have yet to achieve the energy density Lithium offers.

An Indian company is opening a factory to produce Sodium ion. At 30% cheaper, but with shorter range than a Li-ion would in the same vehicle, that makes them good for short range city driving, shopping, and dropping the kids off at school.

China has a series of lead acid battery powered motorbikes. They are far cheaper than Lithium powered alternatives, but offer much shorter range. However, they are pretty great for local buzzing around.

I wouldn't be even slightly surprised to hear of a short range, lead acid battery powered microcar designed for school runs and shopping. I know there was some research, but I suspect their performance issues would make them difficult to market.

Germany, the US, and China came up with solar charging vehicles, but all have failed to enter commercial production.

The US one was highly successful but way to small to be of much use, the two German ones failed (One because they spent all their cash trying for the US market), and the Chinese ones don't look that great.

The tech and licenses for the German EVs are up for grabs if anyone has a factory and the desire to give it a shot - They would be really nice for the very sunny Asian regions.

If you have the above, I have mobile numbers for both CEOs. Nice chaps, and both would likely be interested in a deal for the tech.

As a note, if you watch one of the Star Trek films carefully, you'll see the first version of the American one driving around Star Fleet headquarters. It moves left to right in the background when Kirk and Bones are discussing an impossible test.

Also - Keep an eye on Israel. They are developing a lot of battery tech. Sodiun ion is one (See desalination plants for drinking water), flash charging is another (You need to see their charging speeds to believe them), and one company is working on inductive charging whilst driving.

The latter is a bit of a bugger for normal roads as the vehicle has to maintain a position above the coils, but I can see how they would be useful for bus lanes. They claim a 1:1 ratio of charge to distance, so your now far smaller (Thus cheaper) batteries stay at 100%.

Thanks Fred, interesting but your prognosis? Buy an EV now or wait for technology to get ahead of current (pardon the pun) problems and issues? For me if I was driving long distance and say 30/40K klicks a year EV's are worth considering but currently the infrastructure is not available for the average punter for fueling up.

Cheers, Steve.

The cost of electric cars currently are beyond many middle income people even with the $7500 tax incentive in the US. Depreciation and high cost of battery replacement  should be a factor. Who would want to buy an used electric car with "X" amount miles on it?

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Many companies are looking beyond total electric cars.

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Hydrogen powered cars: Hydrogen fuel cells, either by combining hydrogen & oxygen  to produce the electricity or as a direct fuel. With a 600 mile range and refueling time the same as gasoline.

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I wouldn't be concerned about CO2 emissions, at some time in the future with the diminishing availability of oil and the high extracting cost it will phase itself out as a fuel source.

Great input Bob and yes maybe Hydrogen will be the future, in the mean time given our miles travelled I will stick with the current gas guzzler SUV we have. There are no tax incentives for anything solar here in PH which is sad but then we know how far behind the times some countries are. BUCKS.

I also wonder the input/emissions  costs to produce solar panels, lithium batteries, invertors etc. over the cost of staying as we were on fossil fuels but happy to be independent from a once stable grid to a twice a week blackout, see the neighbours all the time at night with candles, torches  and some running generators.

I wonder the figures as hype or accurate that 2023 has been the hottest year on record and whether to blame global warming or a cyclic normality. Aside we invested many pesos to not get a power bill, perfect but the cost of an EV is ridiculous for what you get but look I do.

Cheers, Steve.

In my most humble opinion and tiny mind, I don't believe EV cars are ready yet. The downsides are obvious:

• Range issues
• Battery cost
• Overprofiting by companies trying to ride the bandwaggon
• Charging facilities and time
• The devastating consequences of a fire.

Range isn't a care for city driving, and charging can be done at home if you're a low user.

The price of Lithium is mad

At least one company, a Chinese manufacturer, sells the same car in two countries- but it's double the price in Indonesia

Chargers are finding their way into hotels and malls, but the infrastructure is still very weak.

If a car catches fire, it's generally a problem that's reasonably easy to sort out. Lithium batteries are a serious problem when they go bang.

The upshot is, the things are too expensive and not good enough yet.

However, technology is running faster than a man with irritable bowel syndrome after a curry, so things are likely to change in the next year or two.

A friend of mine in Las Vegas has two Tesla's. I "rented" on of his for about 8-10 days total. I paid for the "fuel" cost on his account later, using superchargers around town as needed. But somewhat a pain in the arse as there's only so many and Las Vegas is huge in area, so you best hope that the one your going to has open spots. Then what are you going to do for the next hour? I loved the quietness of the car after so many years behind the wheel of a 10 speed semi. And of course the acceleration is a blast. But honestly, the car is cheaply made. The interior is weak sauce low quality imo. Exception being the big ass screen in the middle. But that's far less intuitive than it should be. Is it cool you can "call" the car up to you curbside at a parking lot? Hell yes. But are we THAT lazy or carrying too much?

For the Phils, it's a non-starter imo. Simply because the infrastructure isn't even close to available.

@Fred I agree with everything you said except for your last comment "so things are likely to change in the next year or two.'

No way things will change in a year or two. What may happen is for people to come to their senses and realize that the EV movement is a giant miscalculation because they decided to ignore the technical and cost issues and it also dawns on many people that carbon is still needed 80% of the time to charge these things on a grid that could not and will never support 100% EV adoption. In the Phils, don't even consider it...the grid cannot support current demand.

    @Fred I agree with everything you said except for your last comment "so things are likely to change in the next year or two.'
No way things will change in a year or two. What may happen is for people to come to their senses and realize that the EV movement is a giant miscalculation because they decided to ignore the technical and cost issues and it also dawns on many people that carbon is still needed 80% of the time to charge these things on a grid that could not and will never support 100% EV adoption. In the Phils, don't even consider it...the grid cannot support current demand.
   

    -@danfinn

The problem with your (and many others) thinking is using the term "100% EV". Our world is likely a minimum 50 years if not more from "100% EV" That does not mean our world needs to stop development and wait for that one moment 100% instantly becomes attainable at the blink of an eye. Cars would have never happened or airplanes if that was how progress happens.

Gordon Gekko:

CO2 is good.

Some/many can charge EV's at home off existing solar for a 3/4/500 klick ride but long range brings many problems. Given the cost I will wait as I did for domestic systems to reduce prices to become viable, one third of Australian homes have a solar system small/large and stand alone but most of that came from government incentives and tax rebates, many countries are behind the times especially here both government and power suppliers.

Cheers, Steve.

        @Fred I agree with everything you said except for your last comment "so things are likely to change in the next year or two.'No way things will change in a year or two. What may happen is for people to come to their senses and realize that the EV movement is a giant miscalculation because they decided to ignore the technical and cost issues and it also dawns on many people that carbon is still needed 80% of the time to charge these things on a grid that could not and will never support 100% EV adoption. In the Phils, don't even consider it...the grid cannot support current demand.        -@danfinnThe problem with your (and many others) thinking is using the term "100% EV". Our world is likely a minimum 50 years if not more from "100% EV" That does not mean our world needs to stop development and wait for that one moment 100% instantly becomes attainable at the blink of an eye. Cars would have never happened or airplanes if that was how progress happens.        -@Larry Fisher

Very true. There is no factor driving demand to even near 100% in the near or far future, setting aside the possibility of government mandates. The difference is that cars and planes were truly disruptive technologies that vastly improved the modes of transportation at the time; there was no way society would not adopt them by popular demand once available. On the other hand we have EVs which are not disruptive but simply replace a gas powered engine with an electric motor.

There is no overwhelming popular demand, just the choice of choosing (or not) a vehicle that does the same thing as before but costs more etc. etc..

I won't be driving/owning an EV. Initial cost is too high and you still pay for the energy to charge the batteries. On long drives, I cannot sit for 45 minutes or so to fast charge the batteries.

    Gordon Gekko:
CO2 is good.
   

    -@Enzyte Bob

Oxygen-generating photosynthesis is impossible  without it.

@danfinn

While the world in general takes it as a work in progress. A work, that is inevitable. Have you ever spent any time actually driving around Manila or Cebu ? Like for 5-6 hours each day for a couple days? The stench of diesel and gas exhaust actually makes my chest hurt. Now I am a long time smoker, so my lungs are shot already. But driving for a day in Cebu is actually harmful. The world is changing for the better by embracing EV. I am no great advocate against fossil fuels. Hell I bought my gas car in Cebu 1 year ago. And I bought and paid for a diesel semi (modern fuel efficient) in the states. I also hate Elon Musk's huge power wanting ego. But I embrace the change that is coming. I have made the most money with my investments in the Oil sector over the last year. But I embrace the progress of reduced carbon footprints and breathable air. I embrace battery technology and have money invested in Lithium mining as well as the oil sector.

Embrace change. It's always happening. It's always coming. Forward thinking, remembering past history.

At the end of the day, apart from the global climate change stuff, our cities are filthy and that's literally killing us.

When I was at school , breathing difficulties were rare to the point only two kids in the whole school had issues.

Seems evey second kid has problems these days.

The need for EVs isn't all about getting rid of oil, it's about cleaning up our cities.

The advances in tech over the last ten years has been amazing, and the last two were absolutely stunning. Between Israel and China, the state of EVs is changing at a pace most don't understand.

King Cnut, in the much misunderstood story, tried to hold back the tide.

Fleet street tried to stop technology.

Both came a very poor second.

Trying to stop innovation is a serious waste of time and effort, but geopolitical idiots are doing their best to repeat history's epic failures.

@Larry Fisher Embrace change. It's always happening. It's always coming. Forward thinking, remembering past history.

Embrace change for the sake of change. Out with the old in with the new.

I have seen that attitude my entire life and it is not necessarily forward thinking or learning lessons from past history.

In fact, as long as we're using aphorisms, I have one for you: The more things change the more they stay the same.

Now to corruption and bribes ... Oops - maybe I shouldn't mention that.

In fact, in fact, as long as we're using aphorisms, I have one for you: The more things change the more they stay the same.
    -@danfinn

One thing stays the same, and that's the winner is the one with the deepest pockets, and best hold on the press.

Progress we can't change, contribute we can, simply look back in recent history with the steam engine and then the motor car the doom sayers stated that the human body cannot travel faster than 40 miles an hour or was that kilometres per hour? The switch board operator connecting your phone call (and hearing all the gossip) cash only to now credit and debit cards, digital. Posting a letter 200 years ago was a 3 month saga by sea, modern times a day or two, now instant on the net.

Fossil fuels served their purpose and will do into the next generation but eventually gone, we old farts won't be around to see that but can make a difference now in many ways.

Cheers, Steve.

Pssst bigpearl, don't tell anyone, but Phils is still 3 months saga for mail.

Both boracay and intermuros are only accessable to electric jeepneys. I expect anyone thats gone to the main office BI should have seen them. In Boracay, it seems to work exceptionally well.  I've been thinking of buying an electric trike to do all my short trips. They run from 60k to 200k.

    @Larry Fisher Embrace change. It's always happening. It's always coming. Forward thinking, remembering past history.
Embrace change for the sake of change. Out with the old in with the new.

I have seen that attitude my entire life and it is not necessarily forward thinking or learning lessons from past history.

In fact, as long as we're using aphorisms, I have one for you: The more things change the more they stay the same.
   

    -@danfinn

You're in total denial sir. Change has been happening since the dawn of time. You can either embrace it's going to happen, or be miserable in fighting it. You don't have to agree with particular incidental changes. But that will not stop the progression that comes natural. When I say forward thinking, it means think forward for yourself. Not backwards. Accept that the EV world in this instance WILL HAPPEN. Maybe not full-on like appear to dread. But it's happening. The world is not going to back away from it. No how, now way. You can't change that. So accept that it's happening, and "think forward" how you can best be reasonably happy in that event. What from the past can you bring to the table possibly to make that event or progress better for the future? To "stay locked" into the past, is to remain miserable.

         New Jersey passed a law that no vehicles with combustion engines will be allowed to be sold in the state as of 2035.  The cars sold before 2035 will still be street legal.  I turn 86 that year if still alive.  I am not planning to be part of the ev revolution, wishing good luck to those who are.  Got my father's 2004 Volvo with 45,000 miles on it, thinking it will be part of my estate.

Larry Fisher pontificated;

You're in total denial sir.

Excuse me but I don't believe you are employed as one of our helpers so addressing me as "sir" is not necessary.

"Change has been happening since the dawn of time. You can either embrace it's going to happen, or be miserable in fighting it. You don't have to agree with particular incidental changes. But that will not stop the progression that comes natural. When I say forward thinking, it means think forward for yourself. Not backwards. Accept that the EV world in this instance WILL HAPPEN. Maybe not full-on like appear to dread. But it's happening. The world is not going to back away from it. No how, now way. You can't change that. So accept that it's happening, and "think forward" how you can best be reasonably happy in that event. What from the past can you bring to the table possibly to make that event or progress better for the future? To "stay locked" into the past, is to remain miserable. "

Now you see the reason I said you pontificated. And by the way, EV has already happened but adoption is fairly slow. All that happened was a switch of engine technology which really isn't the high minded big deal you think it is. It is not disruptive: Examples of disruptive technologies (disruptive is usually good for society in general):

The lightbulb (Edison) replaced kerosene and whale oil lamps.

Radio. Largely but not completely displaced newspapers. Totally changed the way we communicate.

The cotton gin. Replaced largely unpaid human labor in the South

The automobile. Replaced horse and buggy.

The airplane. Replaced train travel.

The iPhone/smartphone. Replaced PCs which themselves replaced several manual tasks.

I'm sure you can think of more.

These inventions represented real change of the type you seem to be referencing.

But removing gas engines and replacing them with electric motors, though change, is not disruptive, it's simply another point in the evolution of automobile transportation which does *not* change, it largely stays the same assuming some of those problems like range and highway li-ion flambeaus can be worked out. The steam engine was disruptive: it changed transportation itself. But the diesel electric engines that replaced steam were not disruptive to transportation , just an evolution of  train technology. EVs follow a similar path.

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-@Larry Fisher

@Larry Fisher

Being locked in the past is not necessarily being miserable but possibly fearful/uncomfortable with change or simply happy to live in an unchanging now.

Remember when our ancestors discovered fire and the cooked the perfect steak, Perhaps the wheel, telescopes and antibiotics? Human beings are the masters of change and progression and most times for the betterment of our now civilization, onward we march,,,,, backwards at times.

Cheers, Steve.

"Change has been happening since the dawn of time. You can either embrace it's going to happen, or be miserable in fighting it. 

The lightbulb (Edison) replaced kerosene and whale oil lamps.

Radio. Largely but not completely displaced newspapers. Totally changed the way we communicate.

The automobile. Replaced horse and buggy.

The airplane. Replaced train travel.

The phone has taken over everything. Newspapers are now pretty much online, as is radio.

The fleet street marxist unions tried to stop the first digital printing - they were idiots.

Strange as it is, very high speed rail in China is killing short hop air travel. The plane is faster, but boarding and so on averages the game out so cheap and easy rail wins. I wonder what Beeching would have made of that.

As for EV cars - give them a little time or, if we really want to look on the bright side, fusion power will kill oil in the same way Harold Shipman looked after his elderly patients.

Practical commercial electric cars were available in the 1880's.

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As this forum has many geriatric members, our last automobile ride could be in an Electric Hearse courtesy of Elon Musk.

https://jakartaglobe.id/business/wuling … preordered

Wuling has priced the two variants at Rp 358 million ($23,000) and Rp 408 million ($26,200), respectively.

A similar size petrol car can be had for something over 100 million.

https://www.oto.com/mobil-baru/daihatsu … donesia,60)%20pada%2016%20Desember%202023.

Daihatsu Ayla  4.84 | 141 ULASAN

Rp 134 - 189,9 Juta

Juta is million.

The base model has AC but not much more.

That leaves the EV a bit pointless

@Fred The base model has AC but not much more.

That leaves the EV a bit pointless

For those of us with/in families supporting lives of people close to us; the extra pesos would go far in supporting vast improvements in their lives such as University education, nursing school, nautical education or getting started in farming. So much more meaningful than pseudo environmental virtue-signaling. Then there is also the lithium-ion flambeau lottery; battery manufacturers know a lot about li-ion chemistry but not everything. The tech is very useful and excellent for storage of high energy but that also makes the tech potentially very dangerous. They do know how to make a battery that will not blow up in normal use under most conditions but they still have catastrophic failures for seemingly no reason, arbitrarily and unpredictably blowing up and igniting into huge fires where water cannot even be used to extinguish them, endangering lives and property. In my opinion companies do not have the right to subject the public to even a minor probability of random deaths that their calculations indicate will happen yet they release it anyway. This is illegal. In the 70's there was a car called the Ford Pinto where the gas tanks exploded very easily resulting in similar fires. In that case, car executives were taken to court and charged with manslaughter as they knew the possibility of explosions. Engineers even had the calculations in their engineering notebooks, you can google it but that basically ended the Pinto. Is the same in store for the EV? In our litigious society I am surprised that civil and criminal charges have not happened yet. They will. No companies gets to wantonly release products to the marketw here the luck of the draw determines whether you get to continue breathing.

Getting back to EVs and their high minded speak about dealing with "change" but which also brings the probability of death and destruction, die hard optimists that they are, they refuse to recognize the negative reality.

Thanks to all, some great feedback both from here and another site.

I think I knew in my heart that while EV's sound good the justification of spending a large sum of money on something that we would only drive 5/6 thousand klicks a year is pointless. Perhaps I was thinking too green.

On reflection we did our bit now when it comes to reducing emissions by going off the grid.

Our last bill was 3 pesos and yesterdays was under 20 pesos. Much better than 10/11K and now using more power on A/C the bill could have been 15K per month, fuel in the car is like 3K per month.

Again thanks to all.

Cheers, Steve

My next motorbike will likely be an EV because it makes sense.

The type I have in mind is slow but easily fast enough for town driving, and faster than it will ever be asked to go.

It has limited range, but enough so I will only need to charge it once a week.

It is cheap as it uses lead acid batteries.

The charging costs are close to nothing, and it can be charged from any standard socket in 4 hours.

The battery is expected to last 3 years or so, but lead acid batteries last a lot longer out here than they do in colder climates.

EVs can be a sensible option, but most still have way too many problems to hit that mark.

    Pssst bigpearl, don't tell anyone, but Phils is still 3 months saga for mail. -@Larry Fisher

Seen it 4 months here Larry but only the Cignal bill which is paid automatically every month. We spoke to them 3 times to stop the paper trail,,,,, yes sir but nothing has changed and we receive no other mail apart from the monthly power bill which the meter reader sticks in the mail box.

Off topic, my bad.

Cheers, Steve.