Englishman seeking advice on teaching, but no qualification

Go and do a course such as Celta or Tesol,get some classroom experience. To be honest, you can get a job teaching because you are a native speaker, but you won't be doing your students any favours by not having some actual teaching knowledge.

colinoscapee wrote:

Go and do a course such as Celta or Tesol,get some classroom experience. To be honest, you can get a job teaching because you are a native speaker, but you won't be doing your students any favours by not having some actual teaching knowledge.

When I taught ESL 40 odd years ago at the U of Saigon, the requirement was a Bachelors Degree if you were a native speaker. From what I read, I expect that a Bachelors and being a native speaker could get you a job. But, colinoscapee is absolutely correct about needing teaching experience to do a good job.

I concur with the above chaps comments. Teaching experience is essential. I have no quals in English except for "O" levels, but I did teach EOD for a number of years and have also lectured on the subject, so teaching wasn't too difficult for me.

The main difficulty for you will be trying to "mesh in" with what is already being taught at your students schools.

For example, a friend asked me to coach his daughter for her end of year English exam. I said that, since the girl was 11 years old and already had a good grasp of English (their family had been to our place a couple of times for lunch and vice versa, so I had spoken to her quite a bit), I would sit with her for a couple of hours on Sunday after lunch and let her practice with me.

She turned up on the first day with an English exercise book. it was a photocopy. This led to problems of the "Please put a tick next to the blue ball" variety and "What colour shirt is Ben wearing" and "How many colours can you name in the peacocks tail" and so on.

And if your grammar and punctuation are not spot on, be prepared to be corrected by the kid you are teaching, or get a rollocking from the kids school teacher, via the kid.

Just being a native speaker isn't enough, so please consider doing at least a basic course in teaching English before starting.

Good luck.

eodmatt wrote:

I concur with the above chaps comments. Teaching experience is essential. I have no quals in English except for "O" levels, but I did teach EOD for a number of years and have also lectured on the subject, so teaching wasn't too difficult for me.

The main difficulty for you will be trying to "mesh in" with what is already being taught at your students schools.

For example, a friend asked me to coach his daughter for her end of year English exam. I said that, since the girl was 11 years old and already had a good grasp of English (their family had been to our place a couple of times for lunch and vice versa, so I had spoken to her quite a bit), I would sit with her for a couple of hours on Sunday after lunch and let her practice with me.

She turned up on the first day with an English exercise book. it was a photocopy. This led to problems of the "Please put a tick next to the blue ball" variety and "What colour shirt is Ben wearing" and "How many colours can you name in the peacocks tail" and so on.

And if your grammar and punctuation are not spot on, be prepared to be corrected by the kid you are teaching, or get a rollocking from the kids school teacher, via the kid.

Just being a native speaker isn't enough, so please consider doing at least a basic course in teaching English before starting.

Good luck.

Good points, especially, "The main difficulty for you will be trying to 'mesh in' with what is already being taught at your students schools." A bit of personal experience, after being hounded for sometime to teach at a private ESL school for good pay, I was quickly discharged because my accent wasn't Indian and I failed to stress the multiple different usages of the word "whom" that were stressed in the textbook.

Note, the school's fault was in hiring someone whose spoken English was unintelligible to the English that the students were being taught. Discharging me was the only correct decision.

Note, in 1974- April 1975, the most used dialect of English in Viet Nam appeared to me to be Indian with the ESL spoken by Koreans second.

You will also find to this day some of the language mills have there own curriculum, which may have been prepared by the owner or owners spouse. It may be full of mistakes, but it's no good correcting the material as you may find yourself unemployed very quickly.

Lor' luv a duck! do yew fnk I would make a good English teacher I come from London an' I wan' ter 'ry i' mate an' make loads ov money. Know what I mean? 

Well if ya jump in ya mota and get here lickerty split,yes guv.

Deepsix wrote:

Lor' luv a duck! do yew fnk I would make a good English teacher I come from London an' I wan' ter 'ry i' mate an' make loads ov money. Know what I mean? 

Ahhhh now we come to something a little interesting. I have been in conversations where things I say are or have been relayed to third parties with completely the wrong connotations. Under such circumstances I sometimes speak in the Yorkshire dialect, or such cocker nee as I can muster. The effects can be astonishing.

Back slang is another possibility.

When I was working in Iran, the officials of the Iranian national oil company would sometimes discuss things in Farsee in meetings so that we didn't understand what they were on about. The QC manager and I would return the compliment by discussing things between us in German.

In Vietnam I have also been "corrected" by English students for my wrong use of words. In some places they simply don't understand that English is a contextual language and so a word may have more than one meaning. I came across a very good example of this when working for the EU as a consultant, when I used the word "sanction" in the context  of ....."Explosive demolitions of large explosive ordnance may only be undertaken when sanctioned by the Chief Technical Advisor....."

I was taken to task by some bum faced bureaucrat who told me that the word sanction can only mean prohibition.

I got my own back later on by describing the "instantaneously necrotising effects on the human corpus, of high velocity detonation pressure and heat caused by the brisance of a supersonic shock front during the conversion of energetic substances with a VOD in excess of 5000 m/sec at close range (traumatic amputation by a/p mine for example), as opposed to the more stochastic effects of an explosive event taking place at greater distance."

Anyway, teaching English is not just about being a native speaker, especially where older age groups are involved.

colinoscapee wrote:

Well if ya jump in ya mota and get here lickerty split,yes guv.

It's mo'a.

Don't forget the glottal stop 

eodmatt wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

Well if ya jump in ya mota and get here lickerty split,yes guv.

It's mo'a.

Don't forget the glottal stop 

Would the average Englishman understand it written that way.

Cockney is London's secret Language...I apologize for going off thread but check this out...

http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/co … ranslator/

Deepsix wrote:

Cockney is London's secret Language...I apologize for going off thread but check this out...

http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/co … ranslator/

link wrote:

TALK COCKNEY WITH UNCLE FRED

Oi, I'm from Yorkshire.

On topic, I would strong advise the OP to get some qualifications, then get a set of whatever text books are in use by the school he's trying to work for.
If he gets the points in those books right, the kids will probably assume he knows what he's doing until he gets enough experience to know what he's doing .... all assuming it's legal (Or ignored) to work there without qualifications.

I've been reflecting on students correcting correcting ESL teachers English. Perhaps, some of my experience and why the Director of the U of Saigon, School of Education Language Center hired two of us who already had Bachelors level Degrees and were taking Vietnamese language courses at the U of Maryland Far East Division Saigon branch to teach his most advanced students "bad" English.

The Director, Dam Trung Phap worked his way through Johns Hopkins University by teaching Vietnamese, Chinese, French, Italian, German, ESL to foreign students and a few other languages. Mr Phap realized that his English was so better than everyone else at the University, especially the native English speakers, that he had a problem. So he rather diligently, self educated himself in "bad" English.

Note, If Mr Phap wasn't such a great and likable person, pure jealousy would make me hate him. Anyway the two of us were hired because we had Degrees and our English was bad enough to satisfy Mr Phap's requirements. 

But, if we use other words instead of "good' and "bad" to describe variations in the English language, like formal and informal and point out that English is very diverse and has a number of dialects that are all correct. I call it a "tire." You may call it a "tyre." I buy "gasoline" for my vehicle. You may buy "petrol." We are both absolutely correct.

All in all being hired because my English was bad enough to satisfy the Director of the Language Center was an interesting, but, not something to brag about experience. I did play some "Country and Western" tapes as part of the instruction. You might also get some tapes of different Vietnamese dialects and ask your more smart aleck students why they don't speak like that and point out that the people who speak in a different dialect can also be speaking Vietnamese correctly.

You owe me a clean keyboard I just snorted coffee on it reading your post!

A good read 70 year old, thanks for that!

Matt, loved the bit about 'The bum faced bureaucrat' 

Student: " I didn't deserve a zero mark for that test"

Teacher: " I agree, but it's the lowest mark I could give you"

  I apologize in advance for that really bad joke!

An even older joke than that:

Foreign student of English language on a bus in London passes a newsagents shop outside which is a large sign that reads:

SHAKESPEAR PRONOUNCED SUCCESS

                 at the Old Vic Theatre

The student went back to his flat and hanged himself.

^
It is my intention to vomit at that joke.

But thanks for trying.

I'm here all week. Try the Pho Bo Bun!

Joking apart, when I do a talk, I find a couple of jokes break the ice, and the same applies to teaching.
There am I in front of an audience of Indonesian English teachers, all sharing a common expression of fear at the thought of trying to understand a foreigner's English, so I hold the mic upside down and ask, "Can you hear me?"
One bright spark always points out my error, so I say, "Maaf, saya bule gila" (Sorry, I'm a crazy foreigner).
That laugh gets my audience, and my energy keeps them.

My wild Indian accent as I talk about the ability to understand world English also helps.

I'd film myself doing it one day but my ugly mush would break the camera.

Fred wrote:

Joking apart, when I do a talk, I find a couple of jokes break the ice, and the same applies to teaching.
There am I in front of an audience of Indonesian English teachers, all sharing a common expression of fear at the thought of trying to understand a foreigner's English, so I hold the mic upside down and ask, "Can you hear me?"
One bright spark always points out my error, so I say, "Maaf, saya bule gila" (Sorry, I'm a crazy foreigner).
That laugh gets my audience, and my energy keeps them.

My wild Indian accent as I talk about the ability to understand world English also helps.

I'd film myself doing it one day but my ugly mush would break the camera.

Such modesty! There are others on this forum equally modest, perhaps we should start a thread on it? Kidding!

Lecturing. I have done it and still do it and have a small store of bon mots, quick jokes and puns for use, depending on the audience. I was delivering a lecture on Demining Safety at the Max Planck Institute, Berlin, when my mic went dead. A technician hurried up and, kneeling down in front of me (imagine what it must have looked like to the audience), fiddled with wires and things behind the lecturn and restored the sound. My first words were:

"Wow that was most unexpected".

There was a stoney silence, so I said, "well, now that I am suitably refreshed, on with the talk".

Stoney silence again.

My colleagues later told me that they wire bursting to laugh, but dare not.

Going back to teaching languages, When I was a young soldier in Germany, I hit on the bright idea of learning German by osmosis. I put a transistor radio tuned to a German wireless station under my pillow and went to sleep listening to some geezer speaking German.

Unfortunately as soon as I was asleep, the German bloke said goodnight and the station reverted to its signature, which were the words "Deutschland Funksender" repeated over and over again.

My experiment in the osmotic acquisition of tongues was not completely wasted however, since I can, to this day, say in perfect German:

"Deutschland Funksender".

As for learning English (in an effort not to be deleted by a passing avenging MOD), all I can say is that it seems at first glance very easy, but when you have an eleven year old arguing with you about some esoteric principle of the language, it gives you pause for thought.

My wife, who speaks very good English, albeit with appalling pronunciation at times, is forever correcting my English and I can't wait for the day when she tries it with my mate Allan in UK who speaks broad Glaswegian Jockingese. Thinking about that reminds me that I should also introduce her to another mate from Belfast.

I feel a plan coming on.

eodmatt wrote:

Such modesty! .

I try to remain modest, but it's really hard for people as fantastic as I am.
I've had all the doors in my house widened so I can get my head through, but I still have problems getting into smaller shops that don't have double doors.

My excuse? You need confidence when in front of an audience.

I hear you Fred! (Well, I mean that I read you). The confidence thing is strange, what I do is to kind of mentally click a switch in my mind that shuts off everything but what I am concentrating on. I talk to the people at the back of the audience and rarely, unless its a big, big hall, use a mic. In fact I hate the bloody things.

At my daughters wedding, I eschewed the use of a mic and just projected my voice as if I was reaching a large audience, in fact the guests numbered more than 150 people. The organisers - it was at Farnham Castle - asked me if I would do MC for them at functions but I declined as there is a lot more to being an MC than just projecting voice.

Glaswegian Jockingese is a strange language, and something impossible  to understand for most non native speakers of scotch whiskey.
An Indonesian mate is about to visit Glasgow to see his brother in law and family - he's in a for a shock.

He asked me to help him practice English, but I refused without excuse, simply showing him a video instead.

(Sensitive people, the politically correct and/or humourless should not click on this link.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gMJBQoHJ4E

He just looked at me, eyes wide open and brain spinning, then asked me what language Billy was speaking.

Back to teaching English (must be on topic for a moment).
The OP and anyone else considering teaching that post Norman tongue MUST remember one thing.
English isn't "The rain in Spain stays mostly in the plain" (Or the rain in Spain starts as soon as you get off the plane), it's a wide range of accents and really weird versions of the language first brought over to that green and pleasant land by the Angles, Saxons and a few Jutes (who didn't get their name in the title because their PR man was crap).

Beowulf, chuck?
No thanks dude, I'm trying to give them up.

Wedding or anything with only 150 or so people are no problem for me, even without a sound system.
This is because I have a massive gob that can manage well over 110db (About as loud as a Jumbo jet on take off)
I still fancy a blast at the world record.

Back to accents and English lessons.
Use videos (Not Billy C as you'll get the sack in about 25 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoF4i77kPak

I have found here in Viet Nam you must find the class grammar monster,and put him/her to sleep before the class gets too far down the track.

i hate grammer, speeling and riting ... and so do the kids.
I actually heard one twit of an plastic education expert tell teachers how dictation was a lovely thing to do in class.

What foolishness is that?

colinoscapee wrote:

I have found here in Viet Nam you must find the class grammar monster,and put him/her to sleep before the class gets too far down the track.

I definitely have sympathy for your position. But, understanding the "grammar monster's" situation generates sympathy for "grammar monsters" as well.

Socrates developed the Socratic method of teaching over two thousand years ago. I suspect that few teachers would dispute the fact that the "Socratic method of teaching" is by far the best method of teaching ever developed. The reason that the "Socratic method of teaching" is not more widely used is that it is horribly expensive. Having the equivalent of a full time PhD tutor to teach each and every student, just is not possible.

In Academia, the closest approximation; I've seen, short of Doctorate level, is a graduate seminar, where up to a dozen graduate students sit around a table with their instructor and discuss the subject is about as close to the "Socrates developed the Socratic method of teaching" as it gets. Note, I never studied at a Doctorate level and never graduated at the Master's level and that was 40 years ago. So, please correct me if I have made a mistake with this statement.

One place the "Socratic method of teaching" is still very popular is in the Military. One of my jobs, as a Junior NCO was teaching Soldiers that were surplus, to the jobs in their current field how to operate the M-1 tank so that they could change jobs and stay in the Army. As a Senior NCO, eodmatt has had vastly more experience in the "Socratic method of teaching" than I have, whether or not he is familiar with the term. One of an NCO's primary jobs is to teach lower ranking Soldiers using something very much like the "Socratic method."

The issue is that for most people is that their is a dichotomy between learning the subject and passing the tests, especially in Asia. In order to be successful, it is more important to pass the English language tests and get the certificate, than it is to be able to speak English. That was the point of Professor Phap hiring me for my because of my "bad" English. He had a number of students that were going to do superbly well in the tests. But, he wanted them to be able to speak English as well.

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/educat … stion.html

is a good link to follow.

I know that it doesn't seem right. But, the "grammar monster" likely has their has their priorities straight. First pass the test, get the Certificate, then maybe learn the subject.

Also note, it has been over 40 years since I passed my "Testing and Methodology course." A quick google didn't find that subject listed.

You talking about the change between the M1A1 and the M60?

Any tanker worth his salt had no problem "switching" from the M60 to the M1A1.

Sounds like BS to me 70, as I was involved when the switch happened. They didn't need any special class(es) to make the switch. Hop in, sight it and drive.

Zep

Zepo wrote:

You talking about the change between the M1A1 and the M60?

Any tanker worth his salt had no problem "switching" from the M60 to the M1A1.

Sounds like BS to me 70, as I was involved when the switch happened. They didn't need any special class(es) to make the switch. Hop in, sight it and drive.

Zep

NO!!!!!! NO!!!!!!!!!! ABSOLUTELY NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am talking about Clerks, Cooks etc.  "teaching Soldiers that were surplus, to the jobs in their current field how to operate the M-1 tank" " JOBS IN THEIR CURRENT FIELD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Try to learn how to read before you accuse someone of being a liar.

Also Note, this was in the National Guard during the 1980's and 1990's, when I was teaching the transition from NON TANKING JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!! to the M60-A3. I personally started out in the M-60 "slick" requaled into the M60-A3 and later the M-1 slick, at least one of which was in reality an XM-70. "Essentially we spent our "Summer Camp" getting used to the changes. Also note we were National Guard(Reservists) and we did not get the sort of time that you got on our tanks. The highest table that we regularly shoot was Table 8.

Any way all you proved, if you are any example, is that Regular Army Tankers are illiterate. My unit was the 49th AD. I used "jobs in their current field" instead of MOS because most people here are not familiar with US Army terminology. I do see an "in my 1970's goof" I taught the transition from cooks to M60-A3 not M-1 "slicks."

Aye well, as a warrant Officer, I ended up at the senior instructor (EOD) at the NATO Defence EOD School in UK. Im not sure that our trying methods were entirely socratic, but I perceive that there were some elements of it.

To begin with, since the subject is a bit complex and can very easily be life threatening unless handled correctly. So the courses were always limited to about 14 students. But shortly after the Falklands war it was realised that the UK did not have enough EOD blokes, so the training system went into a frenzy and that was when I joined it. The class size went from 14 to 26 and the failure rate increased by about 10%.

One of the problems with learning EOD arises when you are confronted with the chemical and biological side of the business.  There is simply no other way to learn it than to memorise vast chunks of stuff. Take the chemical compounds for example - and like everything else in EOD we try to remember things by family or group, so, broadly the groups are, e.g.:
Nerve agents
Vesicants (blistering agents)
Bloods agents (cyanogenic agents)
Choking agents (pulmonary agents)
Riot-control agents (tear gases)
Psychomimetic agents
Toxins

All of the groups are divided into sub-groups. The Nerve Agent group, is divided into:

"G" series
Tabun (GA)
Sarin (GB)
Soman (GD)
Cyclosarin (GF)

GV series
Novichok agents
GV (nerve agent)

etc

etc

And so on ad-nauseum and you just have to memorise the bloody lot.

Where I think the Socratic element came in strongly was during the practical exercises and these are always a team event, with the students working in small teams and coming together for group analysis and discussion afterwards.

For most of the practical tests I set, there were general principles to be followed but the solutions could vary according to circumstances.

One exercise we called the Grannie Bostock exercise (after the grandmother or one of the  instructors at the school in the 1960's).

The exercise is set in a small market town centre.

Scene: There has been a bombing raid on the town with some destruction having taken place. The emergency service are at full stretch as there are many casualties. Some buildings are on fire. Smoke obscures some parts of the town.

There is a 500lb bomb with an unknown fuze type ( but suspect 100 hour time delay anti disturbance), lying in the road just off the town centre 100 metres from the small hospital.

4 metres underground somewhere within 30 metres of the bomb there is a fuel pipe-line which links the high octane fuel storage facility some 400 metres away by the river and the airport 1 kilometre away.

There is a very old lady (Granny Bostock), who is VSI in a tiny apartment on the top floor of a four storey building which faces the bomb 40 metres away. Medical services say that to move her would probably kill her. She has to breathe oxygen.

Main underground services near the bomb include a major gas main, the town water supply, sewage pipes, telephone and internet cables and the police telephone system (UK police stations are all linked by a private phone system). There is a communications tower with mobile phone infrastructure on top of a building 60 metres away.

The nearby bridge over the river carries the main rail line from London and is a main freight route to the Southeast of UK.

One street facing the bomb is the towns shopping centre with many large glass showroom windows.

The centre piece of the town is the 1100 year old church, with it's massive 900 year old stained glass window. It is 54 metres from the bomb.

The fire brigade and medical services want access to the area within 100 metres radius of the bomb to begin evacuation casualties.

The team is to formulate a plan for dealing with the bomb immediately giving priorities for actions and a list of possible outcomes.

One bloke wrote on the bottom of his teams brief: "Change out of uniform, mingle with onlookers".

Yes 70, I misunderstood, Sorry.

I was in '78 to '81 when the M60s were being phased out and M1A1s phased in,

The tankers didn't have any trouble.

But we weren't training cooks or secretaries to operate M1 tanks either. I really don't know where you are going with that. In my experience, it's just not reality.

Zep

eodmatt wrote:

The team is to formulate a plan for dealing with the bomb immediately giving priorities for actions and a list of possible outcomes.

Easy.
Clear all press out of the area for safety reasons.
Set up cameras with the best possible views at safe distances.
Set up a gopro with recording on a phone via wifi,  making sure the oxygen woman and her tank are in the field of view.
Sell the footage to the press and retire.

Zepo wrote:

Yes 70, I misunderstood, Sorry.

I was in '78 to '81 when the M60s were being phased out and M1A1s phased in,

The tankers didn't have any trouble.

But we weren't training cooks or secretaries to operate M1 tanks either. I really don't know where you are going with that. In my experience, it's just not reality.

Zep

I was Active Duty USN for over 8 years. One day, my wife noticed that I missed the military and allowed me to join the Army National Guard. I did and stayed in until I retired as an SSG (E-6). That turned out to eventually be a lifesaver for her as we not only have the pension, we have Tricare including Tricare Overseas.

Anyway the 49th was going to be one of the last Armor units deployed when the curtain went up. In theory that gave time to upgrade our skills. I have noted several times in various posts that, despite my current I.D. Card saying U.S.A., I was actually U.S.A.R when I retired and have never been Active Duty Army.

I did serve 1970-1972 mostly in the Mekong Delta doing various jobs including Advisor to the SVN Navy.

Fred wrote:

eodmatt wrote:

The team is to formulate a plan for dealing with the bomb immediately giving priorities for actions and a list of possible outcomes.

Easy.
Clear all press out of the area for safety reasons.
Set up cameras with the best possible views at safe distances.
Set up a gopro with recording on a phone via wifi,  making sure the oxygen woman and her tank are in the field of view.
Sell the footage to the press and retire.

Well the reality was that poor old grannie aint going to survive so forget her.

The stained glass window in the church? Too bad, so sad, take a photo whilst its still there.

The rest was a matter of prioritisation. And frantically trying to think of a way of buggering up the fuze on the bomb without going near it.

70 years old wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

I have found here in Viet Nam you must find the class grammar monster,and put him/her to sleep before the class gets too far down the track.

I definitely have sympathy for your position. But, understanding the "grammar monster's" situation generates sympathy for "grammar monsters" as well.

Socrates developed the Socratic method of teaching over two thousand years ago. I suspect that few teachers would dispute the fact that the "Socratic method of teaching" is by far the best method of teaching ever developed. The reason that the "Socratic method of teaching" is not more widely used is that it is horribly expensive. Having the equivalent of a full time PhD tutor to teach each and every student, just is not possible.

In Academia, the closest approximation; I've seen, short of Doctorate level, is a graduate seminar, where up to a dozen graduate students sit around a table with their instructor and discuss the subject is about as close to the "Socrates developed the Socratic method of teaching" as it gets. Note, I never studied at a Doctorate level and never graduated at the Master's level and that was 40 years ago. So, please correct me if I have made a mistake with this statement.

One place the "Socratic method of teaching" is still very popular is in the Military. One of my jobs, as a Junior NCO was teaching Soldiers that were surplus, to the jobs in their current field how to operate the M-1 tank so that they could change jobs and stay in the Army. As a Senior NCO, eodmatt has had vastly more experience in the "Socratic method of teaching" than I have, whether or not he is familiar with the term. One of an NCO's primary jobs is to teach lower ranking Soldiers using something very much like the "Socratic method."

The issue is that for most people is that their is a dichotomy between learning the subject and passing the tests, especially in Asia. In order to be successful, it is more important to pass the English language tests and get the certificate, than it is to be able to speak English. That was the point of Professor Phap hiring me for my because of my "bad" English. He had a number of students that were going to do superbly well in the tests. But, he wanted them to be able to speak English as well.

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/educat … stion.html

is a good link to follow.

I know that it doesn't seem right. But, the "grammar monster" likely has their has their priorities straight. First pass the test, get the Certificate, then maybe learn the subject.

Also note, it has been over 40 years since I passed my "Testing and Methodology course." A quick google didn't find that subject listed.

The problem being is that many know the grammatical side of English, but can't speak. The grammar monster can pass a reading or writing test, but will fail miserably when it comes down to the communication part, which is what they are there to learn. Communication is not about focusing on grammar, they learn grammar from their VN teachers, who also can't communicate properly in English because they also have  focused on the grammar.

Any good teacher thinks well past the text book, such as selling the footage of the grannie going up in a ball of flames.

Texts books don't always tell kids everything they need.

colinoscapee wrote:

70 years old wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

I have found here in Viet Nam you must find the class grammar monster,and put him/her to sleep before the class gets too far down the track.

I definitely have sympathy for your position. But, understanding the "grammar monster's" situation generates sympathy for "grammar monsters" as well.

Socrates developed the Socratic method of teaching over two thousand years ago. I suspect that few teachers would dispute the fact that the "Socratic method of teaching" is by far the best method of teaching ever developed. The reason that the "Socratic method of teaching" is not more widely used is that it is horribly expensive. Having the equivalent of a full time PhD tutor to teach each and every student, just is not possible.

In Academia, the closest approximation; I've seen, short of Doctorate level, is a graduate seminar, where up to a dozen graduate students sit around a table with their instructor and discuss the subject is about as close to the "Socrates developed the Socratic method of teaching" as it gets. Note, I never studied at a Doctorate level and never graduated at the Master's level and that was 40 years ago. So, please correct me if I have made a mistake with this statement.

One place the "Socratic method of teaching" is still very popular is in the Military. One of my jobs, as a Junior NCO was teaching Soldiers that were surplus, to the jobs in their current field how to operate the M-1 tank so that they could change jobs and stay in the Army. As a Senior NCO, eodmatt has had vastly more experience in the "Socratic method of teaching" than I have, whether or not he is familiar with the term. One of an NCO's primary jobs is to teach lower ranking Soldiers using something very much like the "Socratic method."

The issue is that for most people is that their is a dichotomy between learning the subject and passing the tests, especially in Asia. In order to be successful, it is more important to pass the English language tests and get the certificate, than it is to be able to speak English. That was the point of Professor Phap hiring me for my because of my "bad" English. He had a number of students that were going to do superbly well in the tests. But, he wanted them to be able to speak English as well.

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/educat … stion.html

is a good link to follow.

I know that it doesn't seem right. But, the "grammar monster" likely has their has their priorities straight. First pass the test, get the Certificate, then maybe learn the subject.

Also note, it has been over 40 years since I passed my "Testing and Methodology course." A quick google didn't find that subject listed.

The problem being is that many know the grammatical side of English, but can't speak. The grammar monster can pass a reading or writing test, but will fail miserably when it comes down to the communication part, which is what they are there to learn. Communication is not about focusing on grammar, they learn grammar from their VN teachers, who also can't communicate properly in English because they also have  focused on the grammar.

They pass the test and get the Certificate. With the Certificate, they get the job or School admission. Unfortunately, the Certificate is the only thing far too many need. The ability to actually speak English is, in many cases, not particularly important.

One of the saddest things that I have ever heard, given to us by some dear Japanese friends, was a tape recording of a 3 year old girl taking the highly competitive exam to get into a good pre-kindergarten. Her parents had spent a fortune with "boot camps," tutors and "cram courses" to prepare this 3 year old for taking this test which would be life defining for her.