U.S. Veterans...Roll-Call.

Curious why you need their former rank, serial number and location.  Why not just give a location and they will give you a yes or no about attending?  Reminds me of the police in the US sending prize letters to people with arrest warrants and then arresting them after they show up to collect the prize.

Lirelou, 1962-1989, US Army, PVT to LTC. Spent 1968 split between Dien Khanh (Khanh Hoa) and Pleiku. I was at CCN compound near Marble Mountain during Christmas 1968.

After the fall of Saigon, Vietnam organized something similar.  Then, they just herded everyone off to the "re-education camp." 

No, thank you!  I did what I wanted to do, for my country.  Now, just let me "fade away."  No fanfare, particularly that Vietnamese-styled.

Wild_1 wrote:

After the fall of Saigon, Vietnam organized something similar.  Then, they just herded everyone off to the "re-education camp." 

No, thank you!  I did what I wanted to do, for my country.  Now, just let me "fade away."  No fanfare, particularly that Vietnamese-styled.

I will always remember Captain Doimas, RIP my friend....

http://www.

perry88 wrote:

Curious why you need their former rank, serial number and location.  Why not just give a location and they will give you a yes or no about attending?  Reminds me of the police in the US sending prize letters to people with arrest warrants and then arresting them after they show up to collect the prize.

The "name, rank, and serial number" thingy is a play on phrases.  I don't really need it...just the online name and where they are currently residing.  I did bold the parts that I just wanted which is the "online name" and "currently residing".  I'll go back and RED TEXT it.  The location is explained already as a way for me to find a close central location for everyone to meet.

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

Tell me your online "name, rank and serial number"...as well as where you are currently residing (it's just so I know where most of you are...if it's close to Đà Nẵng then we do something there.  If in HCMC, then we'll find some place in HCMC).

Wild_1 wrote:

After the fall of Saigon, Vietnam organized something similar.  Then, they just herded everyone off to the "re-education camp." 

No, thank you!  I did what I wanted to do, for my country.  Now, just let me "fade away."  No fanfare, particularly that Vietnamese-styled.

Then I'll just have to shake your hand, maybe give you a salute, when you bring my football.  As for me organizing "something similar", that's not really fair to put me on the same block as re-education camps.

I'm thinking more like, a get-together drinking coffee, and appreciating a Vet by buying lunch or something.  That's what regular Americans do on Veteran's Day.  Otherwise, it just turns into another excuse to have a three day vacation/fishing trip.

lirelou wrote:

Lirelou, 1962-1989, US Army, PVT to LTC. Spent 1968 split between Dien Khanh (Khanh Hoa) and Pleiku. I was at CCN compound near Marble Mountain during Christmas 1968.

You're still in Tampa or will you be in Việt Nam this Veteran's Day?  I'm sure there's a hotbed of Veterans in Florida.  So have you met any Veterans living in Việt Nam or have came back to Việt Nam?

I recently read a newspaper article about a reconciliation trip that a non-profit did in bringing US Vets back to Việt Nam to meet with NVA Vets. 

http://www.thanhniennews.com/index/page … -plan.aspx

I followed their website and found some really moving stories/pictures. 
http://www.soldiersheart.net/gallery/index.shtml

Hmm... I know many veterans visit the 23/9 park and spend time with students
Some of them even don't know how to use computer!
You can find out more than from here.

Johnnywastaken.... Saigon
2nd Battalion, 2nd Marines  Lejeune NC
Iraq, Afghanistan.

I cannot attend.... And We do NOT fade away !

.

Dao, I won't be attending. I don't get in until January and Pleiku is probably as far north as I plan to go. But the wife and sisters are talking about Hanoi, so you never know.

I've run into a few Veterans in Vietnam, and about as many claiming to be veterans who weren't. In 2012 I ran into a big guy from Arkansas in Nha Trang who claimed to have been in Special Forces. When I dropped my creds on the table, he switched that to LRRP and avoided me the rest of the week. And there's a nice Aussie gentleman in Can Tho who looked me in the eye on our first meeting and admitted he'd never served in the ADF, but five hours and some serious drinking later he'd been with Aussie SAS and 3RAR and had slept with the girl who starred in "Between Heaven and Earth". I still like this gentleman, but avoid him when he's drinking.

It could have been worse. My brother was a FAC flying out of Song Be who was a mid-level civil servant in Wash DC in the mid-80s. He made the comment that you could tell who hadn't served in Vietnam in Washington at that time. They were all the Senior Civil Service types.

I've been back to Vietnam a good dozen times and seen it from Sapa, Hanoi, Son Tay, and Ha Lang down through Hue, Nha Trang, Dalat, Saigon, and all points south (Ban Don, BMT, Duc Lap, and twice to Ba Chuc). I personally know some people who were members of the VC infrastructure when I was there, but most VC veterans I know/knew weren't members of the Party. Since I served with Vietnamese and Montagnard troops, to include a member of the Ton That branch of Imperial family who was KIA on 11 November 1969 at Bu Prang, I have no great desire to sit down with our opposite side.

Since 11 November has its origins in World War One, and you are in Vietnam, you might want to remember this: Between April 1916 and November 1918, 43,430 Vietnamese and Cambodian troops served in the French Army on either the Western or Eastern (Balkans) Fronts. 2,000 of those fought at Douaumont. l'Aisne, in Champagne, and in the Vosges. I don't have casualty figures.

In addition, 49,890 workers were sent to France where they worked in agriculture, as ambulance drivers, and in weapons factories and ammunition plants, to include those that manufactured gas munitions. They too contributed to the war.

The reception of both groups upon their return to Vietnam was a factor underpinning the growth of nationalist sentiment between the wars. They were basically told: Forget what you saw in France. You are not going to be made French citizens. And don't expect any special favors just because you're veterans.

They deserve a mention. Oh, The French Air Force also had a few Vietnamese pilots.

lirelou wrote:

Dao, I won't be attending. I don't get in until January and Pleiku is probably as far north as I plan to go. But the wife and sisters are talking about Hanoi, so you never know.

I've run into a few Veterans in Vietnam, and about as many claiming to be veterans who weren't. In 2012 I ran into a big guy from Arkansas in Nha Trang who claimed to have been in Special Forces. When I dropped my creds on the table, he switched that to LRRP and avoided me the rest of the week. And there's a nice Aussie gentleman in Can Tho who looked me in the eye on our first meeting and admitted he'd never served in the ADF, but five hours and some serious drinking later he'd been with Aussie SAS and 3RAR and had slept with the girl who starred in "Between Heaven and Earth". I still like this gentleman, but avoid him when he's drinking.

It could have been worse. My brother was a FAC flying out of Song Be who was a mid-level civil servant in Wash DC in the mid-80s. He made the comment that you could tell who hadn't served in Vietnam in Washington at that time. They were all the Senior Civil Service types.

I've been back to Vietnam a good dozen times and seen it from Sapa, Hanoi, Son Tay, and Ha Lang down through Hue, Nha Trang, Dalat, Saigon, and all points south (Ban Don, BMT, Duc Lap, and twice to Ba Chuc). I personally know some people who were members of the VC infrastructure when I was there, but most VC veterans I know/knew weren't members of the Party. Since I served with Vietnamese and Montagnard troops, to include a member of the Ton That branch of Imperial family who was KIA on 11 November 1969 at Bu Prang, I have no great desire to sit down with our opposite side.

Since 11 November has its origins in World War One, and you are in Vietnam, you might want to remember this: Between April 1916 and November 1918, 43,430 Vietnamese and Cambodian troops served in the French Army on either the Western or Eastern (Balkans) Fronts. 2,000 of those fought at Douaumont. l'Aisne, in Champagne, and in the Vosges. I don't have casualty figures.

In addition, 49,890 workers were sent to France where they worked in agriculture, as ambulance drivers, and in weapons factories and ammunition plants, to include those that manufactured gas munitions. They too contributed to the war.

The reception of both groups upon their return to Vietnam was a factor underpinning the growth of nationalist sentiment between the wars. They were basically told: Forget what you saw in France. You are not going to be made French citizens. And don't expect any special favors just because you're veterans.

They deserve a mention. Oh, The French Air Force also had a few Vietnamese pilots.

Wow! It's stories like this that makes Veteran's Day meaningful. 

I didn't know about the conscription of Vietnamese (and Laotian) citizens to serve the French during WWI.  But considering Indochina was under French rule at that time, it would be logical.

THD wrote:

Then I'll just have to shake your hand, maybe give you a salute, when you bring my football.

I will get you your football.  But, you don't need to do anything for me, when it comes to my time in the service.  As far as I am concerned, it was my job:  I did it for my country, and I did it for the men who were there with me.  I didn't do it for any particular person or anything else.

Johnnywastaken.... Saigon
2nd Battalion, 2nd Marines  Lejeune NC
Iraq, Afghanistan.

I cannot attend.... And We do NOT fade away !

They actually allowed guys like you into the Corps.  What did they have you do, peel potatoes?

BTW, it would be hard to do anything, once you are TAKEN...

Lirelou wrote:

I've run into a few Veterans in Vietnam, and about as many claiming to be veterans who weren't.

Exactly, senior!  There are a lot of guys who don't seem to understand that false service claims will make them much smaller men.

lirelou wrote:

Dao,
I've run into a few Veterans in Vietnam, and about as many claiming to be veterans who weren't. In 2012 I ran into a big guy from Arkansas in Nha Trang who claimed to have been in Special Forces.

So true..... In fact just sit in any bar in Thailand and witness SF...Seals...Rangers...Delta...GB's... SAS coming out of the woodwork. Everybody seems to wear a trident these days whether they earned one or not. I usually deflate their story when I ask for their DD214.... What I always learned was SF were reluctant to discuss who they were...for fear of repercussions...among other things....In short... Special Forces didn't talk about anything period... Until recently after the Abbottabad raid....Now they are writing books and selling rights to films.

There was no SF in the Corps when I enlisted....Today MSOR are elite Marines.... I would have been too old to qualify in their inception... But I would have tried... given the ability to do it all over again. My Hat would have suggested it.

I did have the distinguished honor of working along side SF in a support capacity and I have the utmost respect for them... lieutenant colonel.

Wild_1 wrote:

Johnnywastaken.... Saigon
2nd Battalion, 2nd Marines  Lejeune NC
Iraq, Afghanistan.

I cannot attend.... And We do NOT fade away !

They actually allowed guys like you into the Corps.  What did they have you do, peel potatoes?

BTW, it would be hard to do anything, once you are TAKEN...

Howard.... You didn't disclose what branch you served with.... But my gut feeling is Coast Guard....Therefore... you must be very proud.... Miss.

Wild_1 wrote:

As far as I am concerned, it was my job:  I did it for my country, and I did it for the men who were there with me.  I didn't do it for any particular person or anything else.

I'm of the same attitude, I served in the UK army, but that was my job and I did it for myself and my comrades that I met during service.

johnnywastaken wrote:

So true..... In fact just sit in any bar in Thailand and witness SF...Seals...Rangers...Delta...GB's... SAS coming out of the woodwork.

Aint that the truth! I've met a few "ex-SF" here and even some who claim to have served in the same regiment as myself, a few simple questions soon reveals they have no idea what they are talking about.
I simply smile and leave them to there delusional fantasies, but those around realise they are talking bull.

johnnywastaken wrote:

What I always learned was SF were reluctant to discuss who they were...

I've met one American guy here, who has not said anything other than he did a tour here, but you can tell by the little things that he did serve in SF. Those are the guys you know served there time.
Despite some of the book sellers, most guys still do not talk about the time served, I don't know about the US, but certainly in the UK most of this information is still classified under the official secrets act. The book sellers write fiction not fact!

I served in the Navy 8 years, 7 months, 15 days and 13 hours and was selected for ET - CPO aka ETC. I loved it mostly, but not enough for the lifer thing. Just missed the draft for 'Nam back in the day, but knew enough of the grunts, jarheads, squids and airdales that made it back to know what a messed up SNAFU it turned into. If half the stories I heard were true then God Bless the combatants from all sides. May God Bless those that came home and those that survived the ones that didn't.

I want to salute all volunteers and conscripts for performing a duty that few choose to perform now a days. Though I won't be there this November 11 I will be next year so if this becomes a tradition then count me in. And to those that make it this year I'll raise my glass as a toast to you all for services rendered for your country, no matter where you call home.

There a chapter of the Special Forces Association in Thailand, and they maintain a 'safe house' in Bangkok. We went over in 2005 or 6 for a mini-reunion of the Pacific chapters. The Thai SF at Lop Buri were our hosts and put on quite a show. Their snake handling demonstration is something to see and my "Nha Toi" got a big kick out of the monkeys. Most of the senior Thai officers we met could speak Vietnamese and Khmer.

I'm not up on their numbers, but would guess some 30 retired SF types live in Thailand. The great majority are married to Thai women and own businesses. Most speak Thai with a fair amount of fluency. All in all a quite different crowd than one usually sees in Thailand expats in that they are in tight with their local Thai communities.

One of their members is an Aussie SAS veteran nicknamed "Shorty".  My first impression was that he was out of shape. Luckily I didn't make an a** out of myself. Think short, wide, and all muscle. I believe he was a "Chook" (radio operator).

Pffffft ! I've met a few Australian vets while living in Sai Gon. Some real and quite a few fakes as well.

The fakes are SO easy to catch out. They get the details mixed up. Don't know the exact details of who, where, when, or what really happened. Guessing it's much the same with others claiming to be vets and get caught out the same way.
IF you where there, those details are the things you will NEVER forget.(unfortunately)

For the most, if not all the real Australian vets I've met here these days, it's exactly the same as the attitude of the younger generations of our friends here in Viet Nam today, the American war in Viet Nam is the PAST - leave it there. Get on with living today, working and planning for the future.

War, any war, is a VERY nasty one of life's lessons for anyone unfortunate to be involved in.

As a personal observation, about the only time it becomes relevant in any way for former Australian army personal is when attending the annual 'Long Tan Memorial Service'.(18th August 1966) I was conscripted into the Australian army and arrive here after 'Long Tan'.
Like others who sometimes attend, we stand off to one side and leave it to those who actually took part in the 'Battle of Long Tan', to form the center of the memorial.
We've met with some guys, and their families, who where on the opposite side in those long past days. (usually from the Viet Cong D445)
I have yet to see even one sign of remaining animosity from anyone from either side - just the exact opposite in fact !
After the memorial has finished each year, it's not unusual to see the occasional former Australian vet walking slowly alongside a former member of D445, talking to each other quietly, softly, with mutual respect.

Our Vietnamese hosts have taken to treating the Australian vets as long lost 'family' and some really deep friendships have developed over the years.
One 'funny' thing that happened after one of the memorial services. I was approached by a young Vietnamese guy as we all started to leave. He said his grandfather, pointing to a Vietnamese gentleman, was a member of D445 in those days and wished to know where and when I served.
Later that day, at their family home in Ba Ria, we went over his old war diaries and some maps. From what we both worked out, at least twice, in at least two separate contacts we are absolutely sure of, we'd been shooting at each other.
As he said,(laughing so much he nearly fell off his chair) " Lucky we both such very bad with shooting !"

The war is the past. Remember those of our comrades on both sides who served, but let it go at that.

I served here in 71, 72 and 73 in the area between Vung Tau and Tay Ninh. I don't feel like anyone needs to buy me a coffee. Twenty years ago there were a lot of Northern ex-military people in Vung Tau with restaurants on front beach. We sort of saluted each other as there was not a lot to say. For the Vets here, and I mean all of them from everywhere, Happy Veterans Day

But we in it shall be remembered-
    We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
    For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
    Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
    This day shall gentle his condition;
    And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
    Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
    And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
    That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

lostvietdreamer wrote:

I served here in 71, 72 and 73 in the area between Vung Tau and Tay Ninh. I don't feel like anyone needs to buy me a coffee. Twenty years ago there were a lot of Northern ex-military people in Vung Tau with restaurants on front beach. We sort of saluted each other as there was not a lot to say. For the Vets here, and I mean all of them from everywhere, Happy Veterans Day

But we in it shall be remembered-
    We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
    For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
    Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
    This day shall gentle his condition;
    And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
    Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
    And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
    That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

Very nice Shakespeare.  Be sure to log on next month and repeat that "For the Vets here, and I mean all of them from everywhere, Happy Veterans Day" well-wish since we have a month to go and I don't want people to forget the day.

Hey you're in Vũng Tàu!  You can't be that close and just "fade away".  People don't need to do anything for Vets...they just WANT to.  And honestly I don't want to sit on my ass this Veteran's Day letting it just go by like any other day.

Has anyone seen the First Sergeant?  I'm supposed to ask him for a box of grid squares and a prick E-8??

Teacher Mark wrote:

Has anyone seen the First Sergeant?  I'm supposed to ask him for a box of grid squares and a prick E-8??

Go to the supply room and get yours.  Bring a buddy.




How do you know about the Top Secret PRC E-8 program?  Well, since you opened your big fat mouth to the whole wide world, I guess, it's been declassified. 

Army Delays Robotic First Sergeant PRC-E8 Program

ABERDEEN, MD – The commander of the U.S. Army Aberdeen Test Center has officially notified the Pentagon of further delays to an experimental program to deploy robotic First Sergeants to remote outposts in Afghanistan.

Colonel Gordon Graham, who only assumed command of Aberdeen in mid-August, announced on Monday that the Portable Rocker-Chevron Eight, or PRC-E8 program, is still at least six months away from a workable prototype and $20 million over budget.

“At the rate we're going, I think we're going to have trouble just getting the PRC-E8 into service before the planned end of combat operations in 2014,” Colonel Graham wrote in an e-mail to Army Chief of Staff General Raymond Odierno.

The PRC-E program is part of an Army initiative to both increase its expeditionary readiness and reduce its deployment footprint. Because a human First Sergeant consumes valuable chow, water, and bandwidth, the Army has been toying with the idea of creating a solar-powered automated staff non-commissioned officer ever since 2001.

The first models, the PRC-E5 and PRC-E6, were extremely primitive, consisting of an automated loudspeaker that just repeated the phrases ‘Shut up!' and ‘Hurry up!' every five minutes.

The first real breakthrough for the program was the PRC-E7, developed in Iraq aboard Camp Victory in 2008.  That particular model was advanced enough to detect enemy incoming mortars in time to immediately call troops into an outdoor formation to chew them out for walking around their outpost in flip-flops.

Unfortunately the model proved to be unreliable. After several months, most PRC-E7s would hole up in their conex box for days at a time while remotely downloading terabytes of pornography.

According to Colonel Graham, the PRC-E8 was designed to address the flaws in the PRC-E7 program. The original model was a Jetsons-style robot equipped with a mechanical chest-poker, but was scrapped after several malfunctions resulted in the poker shattering soldiers' sternums or puncturing lungs.

The current design is a loud klaxon that goes off periodically, with no one sure why it goes off or how to turn it off. It contains no interface or controls, aside from a sign that opening it and tampering with it is a court-martial offense.

An earlier and more primitive model dubbed the “Sarge-a-Phone”
The PRC-E program traces its roots back to World War II, when staff non-commissioned officers used to record hours of verbal abuse on 78 rpm records and ship them to far-flung U.S. military units around the globe.

The program was briefly resurrected in 1965 by the American Forces Vietnam Network for its popular radio program, “Get Your Fucking Hands Out of Your Fucking Pockets, Vietnam“.

Because of pending budget cuts, the Army is attempting to make the PRC-E8 a Joint Services project. However, this has exponentially increased costs and led to further delays, as the Air Force PRC E-8 is unable to operate outside of a climate-controlled facility and the Navy PRC E-8 keeps ordering Army platoons to swab sand dunes.

The Marine Corps has refused to join the program, arguing that it would be more cost effective just to pay local nationals to scream random undecipherable words at Marines standing post.

Colonel Graham also announced the widely-anticipated cancellation of the PRC-E9: a planned $100 million airship that would be able to simultaenously monitor hundreds of outposts, scan 3,000 computers for inappropriate browsing and observe countless patrols for the unauthorized removal of personal protective equipment.

The PRC-E9 had come in for heavy criticism, with some questioning its value in a combat zone and observing that it could only be deployed on the largest Forward Operating Bases.

Until the PRC-E8 becomes operational, commanders in the field have been issued GBOSS and Aerostat surveillance systems as a temporary stopgap measure to help monitor remote outposts and report disciplinary infractions.

Investigative reporter Dark Laughter also contributed to this report.

Tran Hung Dao,

You're either a sick little puppy with FAR too much spare time on your hands, or a raving nut case.

Either way, my 'shrink' doesn't want to treat you.

GREAT article by the way ! LOVED IT !

Flip465 wrote:

Tran Hung Dao,

You're either a sick little puppy with FAR too much spare time on your hands, or a raving nut case.

Either way, my 'shrink' doesn't want to treat you.

GREAT article by the way ! LOVED IT !

I didn't write that.  Would take too long and my brain would explode.  I just found it from other sources...and as you know, it MUST be true since it's on the Internet.

If you want to read more of that stuff, you can easily find it.  Right click on the image to get your URL source.  Then follow it to the original website and have a fun time laughing your head off. 

If you still are having a problem, I'll share the source with you on Veteran's Day.

US Army Medic: Ft.Dumb, NY, 10th Mountain Dementia, Giessen, Germany, V Corps, Ft. Lewis, Washington, 9th ID and 1Fort Sham Houston, Texas. 

No Iraq, no Afghanistan, no thanks!  I was lucky enough to be with 10th Mountain during a lull in their deployments.  Man, we trained hard.  The Taliban found out just how well the training had worked, 3 years after I ETS'ed.

Great article....

THD, that article was too funny, but I think I've seen older models, but not 100% sure. If memory serves me, my Company Commander at Grrr Lakes was one of those early primitive models that had wires crossed in the cranial circuits. I also think the Chief of the Boat (COB), or Master Chief of he Command (MCC) AKA Chief A@@hole on board the USS South Carolina CGG-37 (now razor blades) was one of those defective models. Obviously, names are not used to protect the inept.

Wild_1 wrote:

the fall of Saigon,

Come on man....you know darn well you wanted to say "Liberation of the South".

(I assume we were liberated from ourselves)

Dtcali,

That is how we became Americans, man.

Saxengee wrote:

[moderated: off topic]

And just what do you have to say to the patriotic Vietnamese who fought for THEIR country ? 

If you separate one 'patriot' from another because of their country of origin, you're nothing but an arrogant, self opinionated  racist !

Saxengee wrote:

I'm not racist. I'm just sick of war. Generally, Patriotism & inherent revisionism creates more wars.

Glad to hear it.  Now before letting this thread spin out of control, please get back on the topic. 

I wanted this thread to be a means of honoring and thanking US Veterans for the upcoming Veterans Day, November 11, 2013.  It's a national holiday celebrated in the United States but I think it has kinda gotten lost and the general public uses it as an excuse for a three-day weekend.

Not this cowboy.  I wanna do something.

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

Saxengee wrote:

I'm not racist. I'm just sick of war. Generally, Patriotism & inherent revisionism creates more wars.

Glad to hear it.  Now before letting this thread spin out of control, please get back on the topic. 

I wanted this thread to be a means of honoring and thanking US Veterans for the upcoming Veterans Day, November 11, 2013.  It's a national holiday celebrated in the United States but I think it has kinda gotten lost and the general public uses it as an excuse for a three-day weekend.

Not this cowboy.  I wanna do something.

Many humble apologies - just gets up my nose (so to speak) when someone who had never risked anything has the nerve to have a go at those who have been patriotic enough to stand up and risk everything for their people ! (Right or wrong reason doesn't matter)
Seems it has been the 'in thing' for a long time in 'western' countries for a self serving minority to sling off at veterans.
I noticed that 'Saxengee' singled out US veterans - no-one else ! A popular pass time for some time now.

So anyhow, we have about 3 weeks to go until November 11th, Veterans Day.  I'm awaiting my football (not the soccer ball) but that may not make it in time to organize anything for the beach.  I also found out from my drive this afternoon that Vũng Tàu Beach is all ate up with a construction project installing a new drainage system....all along Back Beach. 

I've also found out that Expat Veterans are all over the place and most just don't really think anything of the special day.  Too modest I say.  I still don't want to just do nothing.  Even the Embassy staff gets to have a day off and you can bet they're not going to do nothing either.  Interesting...I'll go nose around the website and see if there's anything planned by the Embassy.

In the animal kingdom, they have droughts and floods, intended to weed out the nitwits and the misfits. We have war.  Yes, it is devastating, even to the participants, but it is just as natural.  Without war, guys like Hitler or Pol Pot would have reigned.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I think the world would have been a lot worst with them at the helm.

THD, this is a great gesture on your part.  I am sure you will find something and someone so celebrate the day with.

Wild_1 wrote:

In the animal kingdom, they have droughts and floods, intended to weed out the nitwits and the misfits. We have war.  Yes, it is devastating, even to the participants, but it is just as natural.  Without war, guys like Hitler or Pol Pot would have reigned.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I think the world would have been a lot worst with them at the helm.

THD, this is a great gesture on your part.  I am sure you will find something and someone so celebrate the day with.

Whoa, I have a pretty vivid imagination, but to compare Darwinian natural selection to war is a bit of a stretch. I will admit that war is a form of population control that historically has been used by the powers that be, but it is far from survival of the fittest. In fact, in many cases it is the exact opposite where the bravest and most fit individuals are the ones that pay the ultimate price for whatever side they are for.

I was talking at the institutional level; you are referring to the individual level.

The first casualty leading up to war is truth.  THD is wanting to honor veterans.  This is a noble cause.  I wish you success in your endeavor.