US shutdown

This topic will be closed as soon as someone realizes it's about politics.

HaileyinHongKong wrote:

This topic will be closed as soon as someone realizes it's about politics.

Politics are usually bad news, especially for people.

Sadly and ironically, the etymology of the word, "of, for, or relating to citizens" had become - How to stuff as much cash into the pockets of politicians and stuff the people.

I don't know of anyone that got furloughed due to the government shutdown.

The government estimates that roughly "unessential" 800,000 federal workers will get sent home.

That leaves about 1.3 million "essential" federal workers, 1.4 million active-duty military members, 500,000 Postal Service workers, and other employees in independently-funded agencies who will continue working.

So far, I haven't seen any effect of the government shutting down other than national parks being closed.

Good luck with your move to your wife's native country,Vietnam, Jake!

While my wife is curious to visit the US, she would never agree to live there, and personally, since I haven't been back in the states in almost 16 years most all my friends say to me, "Roy, don't come back...you'll go nuts."

I fail to understand how the world's largest power manages to run itself like a village council and has to close down the government because Mrs Jones down at number 41 does not like the vicars wife's rose garden.  Such nonsense. 
You can see why England gave it up as a colony.  Long live King George and God save the Queen!

"I fail to understand how the world's largest power manages to run itself like a village council..."

A village council where?  I have to say that our banjar runs quite well.

And Luke...just for the historical record, England didn't "give up" their colonies in "the New World"...rather, they got their butts kicked big time...TWICE...the first in the Rev War, and the second in the War of 1812.

I suppose English school boys aren't taught that bit of history, eh? 

Ubudian wrote:

Good luck with your move to your wife's native country,Vietnam, Jake!

Thanks! My wife's long-term preference is still the US, but we will see how it goes. I told her I can't guarantee that I will be able to survive a densely populated tropical climate because I am a small-town southerner who is used to air conditioning, but I can guarantee that I will try my best!

lukereg wrote:

I fail to understand how the world's largest power manages to run itself like a village council...  Such nonsense. 
You can see why England gave it up as a colony.  Long live King George and God save the Queen!

I have seen some funny youtube videos of what goes on in the Queen's parliament.

“Long live King George”

He was as mad as a hatter, and according to the BBC:

“George III is well known in children's history books for being the "mad king” who lost America".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22122407

“I have seen some funny youtube videos of what goes on in the Queen's parliament.”

Me too Jake, but one thing I really like about the British system is that the Speaker must be politically impartial and must resign from their political party and remain separate from political issues even in retirement.

Hear, hear, I yield to the Honorable Mister Luke!

Ah the minister without portfolio always a fave.  Tie that with a quote from A Few Good Men 'I have no responsibility here whatsoever' and I would happily be in government.
UK politics seem a lot easier I think, than America's and far more colourful.

HaileyinHongKong wrote:

This topic will be closed as soon as someone realizes it's about politics.

Yes exactly, It is always about politics. I was actually thinking about the thousands of families who lost their livelihood because of this farce, and I would have been much less gobsmacked if there were an actual economic crisis causing this. But no. You go around the statue of liberty today only to find the entire nation being held at gunpoint by its own leaders for their own political interests.

oldfashionedjames wrote:

HaileyinHongKong wrote:

This topic will be closed as soon as someone realizes it's about politics.

Yes exactly, It is always about politics. I was actually thinking about the thousands of families who lost their livelihood because of this farce, and I would have been much less gobsmacked if there were an actual economic crisis causing this. But no. You go around the statue of liberty today only to find the entire nation being held at gunpoint by its own leaders for their own political interests.

Yes, the Republican party are being very silly.

mas fred wrote:

Yes, the Republican party are being very silly.

It takes two to tango. Obama refusing to negotiate didn't help the situation either.

Obama had no choice but to refuse to negotiate, or have you forgotten that the US doesn't negotiate with terrorists?

And yes, the tea party element of the Republican party are indeed terrorists.

By the way, your senator Ted Cruz cheated during his filibuster...he wore Depends under garments!

jakejas wrote:

mas fred wrote:

Yes, the Republican party are being very silly.

It takes two to tango. Obama refusing to negotiate didn't help the situation either.

When GOP chose the fiscal year-end as the best time to 'negotiate', I don't know, maybe the better word for it would be 'blackmailing'. But I wouldn't even go as far as blaming the entire party for the mess. I blame Boehner for being a political puppet.

“But I wouldn't even go as far as blaming the entire party for the mess.”

And it wouldn't be fair to blame the entire party, but rather (and as you say), its leadership and his failure to control the radical “tea party” element of that party.

The Speaker, John Boehner, needs to read “Profiles in Courage” by John F. Kennedy.  In doing that he might find the guts to bring the current pending CR to an up and down vote on the floor of the House.

Obviously fearing that it would pass, and it likely would pass as there are sufficient moderate Republican House members who would vote for it, the result would likely be that he (Boehner) would lose his Speaker-ship of the House.  Mr. Speaker, that's what courage is all about…the conviction and commitment to let the will of the people be heard and acted upon.

What is radical about the tea party?

"What is radical about the tea party?"

I think the question would be better put if it was worded:

What isn't radical about the tea party?

But to be fair, and to try to answer your question…what I find most radical about the tea party is the disingenuous and dishonest methods they employ in order to further their agenda. 

Did you happen to catch a recent poll which asked, “do you support or favor Obama Care?”

Something on the order of 63% of respondents answered, “NO.”

Of the same respondents, when asked, “do you support the Affordable Health Care Act?”  68% of those very SAME people responded “YES.”

For the benefit of our kind Indonesian friends reading this, and who might not be aware…Obama Care (Obamacare) and the Affordable Health Care Act are one in the same! 

I'm sorry, but what I read that poll is what I think is the only logical way to read it…that way too many Americans still harbor racial sentiments, and that when left to run amok, what should be a news organization, (pundits like Fox News) can, and shamefully do, sway a frightfully ignorant large segment of the US population. 

Ironically, the aforementioned poll was conducted by Fox News and it was a quick segment (never repeated) of Walter's World aired late last week.

Fox news, and in particular, Sean Hannity is also responsible for another oft heard reference to President Obama as “the anointed one.” 

As an American, I personally cannot ever recall a more hideous and demeaning term used to define the President of the United States.  In my mind, that is unforgivable, unpatriotic, and as about as un American as I could ever dream.  If I were Obama, I would have had the FCC pull Fox's license years ago. 

BTW, and just for the record (as I recently just checked with some of my old friends still there), there are no “journalists” for the Fox network that are members of the FCC…the Foreign Correspondents Club in any of their chapters. 

They aren't journalists, yet way too many think they are and woefully, all too many Americans rely on what they hear being said there as the truth. 

Where do I get my news?  The BBC and Al Jazeera.  Now that Al Jazeera is available as a cable news network in the US, I strongly suggest you have a look.

Ubudian wrote:

disingenuous and dishonest methods they employ in order to further their agenda

And liberals don't do this? Like when they pushed the ACA through against the will of the people or try and punish journalists that don't agree with them?

So you think Americans are racist because they don't support Obamacare, but more support it when it is described as "The Affordable Care Act"? Have you ever seen real racism? That is not racism. Obamacare (or The ACA) is increasing insurance costs. Regardless of if you support it or not, that is a legitimate criticism that has nothing to do with the fact that Obama is half-black. Using the racism card when there is no evidence of racism is crying wolf over and over. It gets old.

Ubudian wrote:

And yes, the tea party element of the Republican party are indeed terrorists.

Is this a joke? It is hard for me to tell. The tea party wants less governmental intrusion into our lives. Terrorism is defined as "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes". The only violence I have seen lately has been coming from liberals. If George Bush would have refused to negotiate with Democrats, would you have had the same opinion?

I am libertarian-leaning, and from my perspective, liberals are radical, but I try not to be hateful towards them. It is all about perspective. In the big picture, the argument is over rights of the individual (classic liberalism or current libertarianism) vs the power of the collective/government over the individual (current liberalism/socialism/communism). I support the tea party on many issues and am sorry you think I am a terrorist.

Ubudian wrote:

Where do I get my news?  The BBC and Al Jazeera.  Now that Al Jazeera is available as a cable news network in the US, I strongly suggest you have a look.

I don't have cable. I think watching cable news is a waste of time. I don't want other people giving me their opinion of the news, I am capable of forming my own. I get my news from numerous locations on the internet.

“I get my news from numerous locations on the internet.”

Hey, that's fine and here are the links for some real journalism on the internet and live on line:

http://www.aljazeera.com/watch_now/http://www.livestation.com/channels/10- … ws-english

I have read some articles written by Aljazeera, but I don't like to watch or listen to news. It's nothing against their anchors, just a personal preference for reading. They are still a relatively new news channel for the American market. A bunch of people got upset at Al Gore for selling Current TV to them because they are big into the oil business and Gore is big into environmental issues. I didn't really care though, it was Al Gore's company, so he should get to decide who to sell it to. I also like the associated press, drudge, huffington post, and some other boutique sites (financial, regional, technology, etc). It is important to understand both sides of an argument, so I also read some commentaries by liberals, social conservatives, and libertarians. I usually only agree with the libertarians, but it is interesting to see what the other people think.

“So you think Americans are racist because they don't support Obamacare, but more support it when it is described as "The Affordable Care Act"?

How else would you explain the results of the poll I cited?  When Obama's name was attached to it, the approval rating (from the Fox poll respondents) was low…when the name was offered properly, as the Affordable Health Care Act, the approval rating was high.  Please tell me, what does that mean to you? 

And just for the record, I did not say that I believe that all, or even the majority of Americans are racist, nor I have I personally referred to you as a terrorist.  So, let's stay on topic here and not personalize our discussion, OK?  Let's keep the discussion friendly and hopefully productive is all I ask.

Besides, I hate to see the mods nuke this thread just when it's getting interesting.

“Have you ever seen real racism?”

I sure have. 

I grew up in the 1950's with “white's only” signs everywhere.  I was an activist while in college during the early 1970's and three decades later I had a business located near Greensboro, NC.   I've heard the “N” word used so often as to make me want to vomit. 

This racist mind set didn't all go away with Jack Kennedy and Dr. King and the decades of continued work after them…not by a long shot. 

To be totally honest, I've had more than a belly full of racism in my life in the US, and I pray God a big “THANK YOU” that in all my years living here in Indonesia I've never experienced racism from any Indonesian I have met or encountered.  Am I saying that racism doesn't exist here in Indonesia?  No, but I've personally never witnessed it aside from an occasional encounter with a nasty tourist.

I also thank God that I learned that what I once naively thought was somewhat normal, (racist tendencies), is in fact not normal at all.

"It is important to understand both sides of an argument, so I also read some commentaries by liberals, social conservatives, and libertarians. I usually only agree with the libertarians, but it is interesting to see what the other people think."

A most reasonable and very valid point, IMHO.

Ubudian wrote:

How else would you explain the results of the poll I cited?  When Obama's name was attached to it, the approval rating (from the Fox poll respondents) was low…when the name was offered properly, as the Affordable Health Care Act, the approval rating was high.  Please tell me, what does that mean to you?

It means Americans by in large do not follow politics enough to know what they are talking about. They don't like the ACA, but they don't know it by that name because everyone calls it Obamacare. I'm sure you've seen the video (if not, it's funny and I would suggest looking for it on youtube) of the guy getting females to sign a petition ending women's suffrage (i.e. ending their right to vote). It sounded bad so people signed it. There is also a one getting people to ban dihydrogen oxide (water) because of all the deaths it causes. It's the same thing with the ACA. Because it has the word "Affordable" in it people think it would be a good thing, but don't know it's the same as Obamacare. Just because Obama is half-black does not mean that anyone to criticizes him is a racist. Taking an objective look at the state of the economy (which historically has been closely correlated towards a president's approval rating although not as much with Obama), and the things the national government has been doing (NSA spying, IRS political audits, etc.), there are plenty of reasons to not like what Obama is doing. According to Gallup, his approval rating is 45% and his disapproval rating is 49%. It is doubtful that the rating has anything to do with the color of his skin though, because he started his presidency with about 70% approval. Even the black caucus has criticized him.

Ubudian wrote:

And just for the record... I [haven't] personally referred to you as a terrorist.

You didn't call out my name, but most people would put me in the category of a tea party member.

Ubudian wrote:

And yes, the tea party element of the Republican party are indeed terrorists.

I associate with the Tea Party and while there are no set sign-up sheets to officially become a member, I have attended several events and have contributed to causes/candidates. I'm not upset about being called a terrorist or any other hateful name. It's not the first time, and I know it won't be the last. I know I'm not, and there is so much hatred in the media towards conservatives and libertarians that you get used to it after several years.

Ubudian wrote:

Let's keep the discussion friendly and hopefully productive is all I ask.

I agree ; I am enjoying the conversation and am not offended at all.

Racism in the Tea Party is a well recognized fact of life.  All one needs to do is Google the term and it's almost endless what will come up. 

You might particularly enjoy reading this article by Phil Russo, a Libertarian (like you) and a well known conservative radio talk show host:

http://thegrio.com/2013/04/09/tea-party … -movement/

And then of course there is this from the NAACP:

http://www.naacp.org/news/entry/naacp-d … -tea-pary/

In the above linked article pay particular attention to the signs that were photographed at various Tea Party rallies. 

Why on earth would such signs be tolerated by Tea Party organizers? 

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that if I took my Balinese wife and our three sons back to the US to show them my roots that I would have to give serious consideration as to where to take them, and where not to take them.  Here, at home in Indonesia, that thought never crosses my mind. 

That harsh reality saddens me.

The only place I have heard of racist Tea Party members has been in the media. I have been to many Tea Party events and talked with a bunch of likeminded people and I have never seen or heard anything remotely racist. Not everyone that goes to Tea Party events is white, so the narrative of Tea Party members being uneducated white racists just isn't true. My wife and daughter are not white and I would (and do) take them to a Tea Party rally or anywhere else in the south without hesitation. The NAACP is not a reputable organization when it comes to determining who is racist and who is not. MLK would be digested at some of the things they do. I might give these stores some credibility if I had ever met a racist Tea Party member or met someone who had personally known a racist Tea Party member, but to be frank, I have met FAR more racists (all of whom except one were non-whites) working in restaurant kitchens than I ever have hanging out with libertarians and Tea Party members.

You should be thankful that you haven't personally encountered racism at Tea Party events.  I hope your good luck doesn't run out.

As for me I'm in no rush to take any chances exposing my wife or our three boys to any of what I consider the most vile character trait possible to be found in a human being, which means it will likely be a very cold day in hell before I take them on a visit to the states.

Racism is a nasty idea that says a lot more about the hater than the hated.

It is not my luck that has prevented me from meeting a fabled Tea Party racist. The Tea Party supported Herman Cain, Allen West, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Tim Scott (only black senator), Mia Love, and the list goes on. Obama is whiter than all of these politicians except for Ted Cruz, who also has a white mother. As far as I'm concerned, the news reports of racism in the Tea Party have no credence. There is some racism in America today (just like every country), but it is not coming from the Tea Party.

“As far as I'm concerned, the news reports of racism in the Tea Party have no credence.”

WOW!   

Well then, that explains quite a lot to me, and so all I can say is have a nice life.

jakejas wrote:

It is not my luck that has prevented me from meeting a fabled Tea Party racist. .

Perhaps it's blindness or an unwillingness to see.

http://brotherpeacemaker.wordpress.com/ … tea-party/

Last I heard, "nigger" (regardless of spelling) was a racist term.

lukereg wrote:

I fail to understand how the world's largest power manages to run itself like a village council and has to close down the government because Mrs Jones down at number 41 does not like the vicars wife's rose garden.  Such nonsense. 
You can see why England gave it up as a colony.  Long live King George and God save the Queen!

In a parliament, the prime minister is a member of the ruling party – and usually a member of parliament himself.  Theoretically, your head of government and legislature should be on the same side.  In our system, the president and Congress are often opposite parties.  Some presidents were never a member of Congress and don't have the personal relationships a prime minister should have.  Congress itself can be divided into 2 parties.

Compromise is an absolute requirement in the American system.  Sometimes the president, House and Senate are all the same party and they can do it the parliamentary way.  Most of the time, different parties control different branches.

The current political climate in the United States is one where compromise is seen as a sign of weakness.  Today's leaders think it's better to shut down the government than to give an inch and be seen as weak.  The most destructive phrase in politics is, "But how would it look if..."  Our leaders govern more by appearance than anything else.

Congressional elections aren't every 2 or 6 years anymore.  With 24 hour news and the internet, it's always election season.  Everyone in the House and Senate is constantly campaigning for their next election.

For me that's the most sensible and easy to understand explanation said so far.

"The current political climate in the United States is one where compromise is seen as a sign of weakness.  Today's leaders think it's better to shut down the government than to give an inch and be seen as weak.  The most destructive phrase in politics is, "But how would it look if..."  Our leaders govern more by appearance than anything else."

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for putting this discussion back on track, Hailey.

Compromise is indeed an essential part of the US political system, but compromise does not mean yielding to tactics designed to kill legislation already in place and already vetted by the US Supreme Court. 

President Obama is absolutely correct in not bending to the extortionist practices being presented by the lower house which is being held captive by a small minority of extremist (Tea Party members) who are demanding changes to the Affordable Health Care Act as part of their agreement to pass a clean, no strings attached Continuing Resolution which would end the current shut down.   

Worse yet, the lower house would certainly pass a “clean no strings attached” CR if the Speaker of the House (who controls what does and what does not come up for a vote) if the resolution was presented for a vote on the floor of the House. 

In other words, the Speaker of the House is abjectly denying the essential due process of democracy…namely, a vote.  His motive for that action is clear…it would mean he would lose his role as leader (Speaker) of the House and that means he is putting his own personal situation ahead of the needs of the people. 

Even Obama's opposition in the first Presidential race, Republican Senator John McCain agrees that the current strategy being used by the House of Representatives is wrong and not the way to compromise or get the business of governing accomplished.

mas fred wrote:

jakejas wrote:

It is not my luck that has prevented me from meeting a fabled Tea Party racist. .

Perhaps it's blindness or an unwillingness to see...

Last I heard, "nigger" (regardless of spelling) was a racist term.

If you are going to condemn an entire group as racists just because there may be a small minority of racists that associate with the group, then the NAACP is racist (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … finds.html) and the Democrat party is racist (http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/40889). LBJ has dropped the N-bomb several times, and even Biden has said things that question his respect for black people (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/). For heaven's sake, Robert Byrd was a card-carrying KKK recruiter, and served as a Democratic senator until 2010!

The fact still stands that I have been to more tea party rallies than most people in the media and I have never seen any signs of racism, and if the group as a whole was racist, they would not be supporting as many minority candidates as they are.

Jake, I think we're off the racism element of this discussion.

Cheers, and the best of luck on your move to Vietnam. 

Hopefully you will find what many Americans have already discovered, that being that life outside the US can be the best years of one's life.