(Job in Japan) Is it an interesting offer?

Julian, sounds like a killer deal!  I'm not good with exchange rates, and even less with yen.  But one thing to consider is the pay versus cost of living. 

All in all I certainly wish you the best of luck Julian!  You don't realize how lucky you are!

Hi Julien,
I don't know anything about cost of living in Japan either, but the deal sounds good as they pay the visa and the accomodation.
I wish you all the best in your research.
Let us know!
Caroline

What's that 250,000 Yen salary, per month???
I hope it's not per year, as thats only 1250 odd Pounds Sterling.

Hmmm, let me see. I live in Matsudo. It's NE of the centre of Tokyo, which is commutable by train in 30 minutes. My company pays my commuting costs. My company does not pay accomadation costs. Where I live, house is a lot cheaper than the centre of Tokyo. I am paying 125000 per month on rent. This is for a 1 main bedroom, 1 tatami room (so a bedroom and dining room at the same time), a lounge room, kitchen, and a study room. I could of got a cheaper place, but it becomes less convenient.
You are lucky that the company pays for your accom.
Let me see, basic food costs. At minimum, look at 16000Yen per week for food. Not factoring in alcohol and easting out here.

Ahhh, OK, lets have a look at my expenses chart....
All of this is per month...
Water : 945Yen
Gas : 3545Yen. Probably going to start increasing a lot in the future
Electricty : 6500Ye. As above!
Yahoo 45Mb Broadband Internet : 8387Yen
NTT : Basic phone line : 2500Yen
Vodafone (Two phones, mine and wifes) : 5000Yen
General Food Costs : 60000Yen ish

Then you start having issues about Health Insurance costs etc etc.

Hmmm.  I heard how Japan was expensive.  Well I got into a currency calculator and got this- $1 USD = 110.32 yen

Soooooo....

250,000 Yen salary, per month = $2,266.14 USD

Where I live, 125000 per month = $1,133.07 USD
Basic food costs, 16000Yen per week = $145.03 USD

Ahhh, OK, lets have a look at my expenses chart....
All of this is per month...
Water : 945Yen = $8.57 USD
Gas : 3545Yen = $32.13 USD
Electricty : 6500Yen = $58.92 USD
Yahoo 45Mb Broadband Internet : 8387Yen = $76.02 USD
NTT : Basic phone line : 2500Yen = $22.66 USD
Vodafone (Two phones, mine and wifes) : 5000Yen = $45.32
General Food Costs : 60000Yen = $543.87 USD

Total monthly cost = 216,877 yen = 1,965.89 USD

That's quite a bit!  So in comparison to what I have....

Where I live = $350 USD per month or 38,612 yen
Basic food costs = $250.00 USD or 27,580 yen

Ahhh, OK, lets have a look at my expenses chart....
All of this is per month...
Water : $0 USD, covered by landlord
Gas : this month is $18.43 USD (2,033.20 yen), last winter it got up to $65 USD (7170.80 yen)
Electricty : covered by landlord
1.4 mb DSL : $66 USD or 7,281.12 yen
Cell phone, with benefits : $80 USD or 8,825.60 yen
Gasoline : $2.439/ gallon or 71.09 yen per liter (269.07 yen per gallon)
Total cost (here) : $764.43 USD or 84,331.92 yen

Now for a reality check- I wish it was that cheap!  There are, of course, incremental stuff I didn't add in.  Like the cost of running my Bronco.  That's several hundred dolalrs alone.  Insurance for the same.  And other bills.  So it nearly doubles.

I had no idea how expensive it was in Japan till now!  Wowsers!

Japan is pretty expensive place. Admittedly, there are extra costs I've not listed. Currently saving up money for my wedding ceremony etc. What I've done is listed the 'essentials'. I've also got a fair bit disappearing each month on savings as well.
Finally, I've got money disappearing in Japanese lessons too   (the company pays for some of it though, but I opted to finance further lessons myself).
They have been some pretty big costs though, which hit me every so often. There is the local tax bill, which was a bit of a monster (I think that was 180,000 for the year, or was it 1,800,000!!!!). Then there is the health insurance costs.
Word of warning. I 'cheat' and never registered myself into the Japanese health service, and have an expat health insurance scheme. The Japanese system only pays 70% of the health costs. Also, how much money you pay in depends on how much you earned in the previous year. New arrivals to the country for 1 year get hit by a really small Health Insurance bill. However, one year later, they get clobbered with a massive bill for the following year. Then, they find it hard to withdraw from the 'compulsory' scheme. Something to watch out for.

I got pretty lucky actually. May company pays me a lot more than an equivalent Japanese national would get in a Japanese company (I work for a British company).

UK is pretty expensive as well actually. I believe petrol(sorry, Gasoline in USA-speak) costs in Japan are not THAT much less than UK, and big compared to US. However, the UK especially and Japan to a lesser degree is somewhat shielded by the large percentage of 'at the pump' prices being tax. So what with the large increases in oil cost, the US public is going to feel it a lot more.

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience Gavin

The salary is 250,000 yen per month and the employer pays the accomodation... I don't know if it is really interesting for a qualified IT engineer, but I am sure it is a pretty good first step to live in Japan

Is life in Japan (Tokyo) more expensive than in the UK (London)? I spent two years in London, and it's almost impossible to get a flat when you're alone (it's too expensive).

Yes I am sure I would have to add a lot of extra-bills, as I like to go out, I would study the language, I would travel all around the country ...

I've sent my CV ... as we say here, I now have to wait and see!

I've not lived in London, so can't hundred % comment on it. BUT, I think that London is pretty much, just as expensive as Tokyo for the average working person.

Sure, there are some of the exclusive restaurants and bars here that are more expensive than the equivalent ones in London. But, say you take you average city centre bar/pub/izakaya/food place in both cities, they are pretty much the same. Accomodation costs in the centre of Tokyo are higher though, considering how much space you get.
Once you venture out of Tokyo centre, Japan is probably expensive compared to outside London in terms of food/drink/entertaining. However, it's cheaper in other ways.
If you spend you life amoungst most of the main destinations, just off one of the railway stations on the extensive (and well run, compared to UK) rail network, you don't need a car.
So, already, I'm saving money compared to UK because I',m not paying the equivalent Japanese road tax, car insurance, petrol/gasoline, car maintenance etc etc.

Electronic consumer goods in Japan are of similar price to UK, no matter where you go. Only advantage Japan has is sometimes they get things before the rest of the world, and sometimes this goods are only sold in Japan.

For general information on Living/Working in Japan, you may want to read this ...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI … 79-1185455

Sorry it's an English language book.

If you want, I can email you more information, and more stuff on employer insurance, tax etc. I'd rather not give out all my financial setup on a public forum.

Thanks Gavin, at the moment I am waiting for any positive sign for the employer (I am sure they've received hundreds of CVs). I'll let you know if I need more information

I'd be happy to read the book, I actually like to read interesting books (and watch movies) in English it helps me to improve my level

Take care!

Update?

How did it go, Julien? Sorry I didn't get back to you before.

I sent my CV and spoke to the company director few days after.

He told me that it is very hard to get integrated in Japan, that he very often feels racism ... That when another company manager calls to talk to him, a japanese employee answers for him (most of the comercial team is japanese). I think he tried to figure out if I am really motivated. I've proved him I am

He also told me that the description of the job offer was wrong and that this position would be available in his company in October... So I am waiting!

Julien wrote:

He told me that it is very hard to get integrated in Japan, that he very often feels racism ... That when another company manager calls to talk to him, a japanese employee answers for him (most of the comercial team is japanese). I think he tried to figure out if I am really motivated. I've proved him I am

ROFL
My line manager did that to me too before I moved here. Its more a case of just making sure you aren't coming over here with 'rose-tinted spectacles' ("can only see the good, not the bad" for non-native English speakers who haven't seen that idiom before).

My line manager himself is half-Japanese, his wife is Japanese and he took great delight in explaining to me how they ended up hating the place, what with the cramped houses, overly expensive etc etc. They now live in Singapore with no intention of ever going back to Japan (except for visits to family).
My response. Nope, still want to go to Japan. I'm fully aware of what I'm getting into to. (Actually, turned out I wasn't fully aware, but not far off).

It's tough... but it's fun. Having said that, with myself (and Jim too I guess) things are easier because we have Japanese wives, which helps with the integration on the out-of-work side at least.

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

Sure, it's hard to be really integrated here. People I know who have been here 10 or 15 years are still viewed as foreigners and treated like tourists. I know it's like that, so hopefully it won't bother me. I will always be "different" here. Japanese people will always be surprised that I can use chopsticks (let alone, when I can speak the language properly).
That's cool. Who wants to be integrated into 65h work weeks, rigid ways to behave in different situations, etc etc.
I try to enjoy the good points of Japan and avoid the bad...
Lots of Japanese people try to do the same. It's easier for us foreigners...

Sorry, this has gone rather off topic.

About an IT job in Japan, you've got two options as I see it:
Japanese company: low pay, difficult working conditions, but great chance to learn Japanese, get into the way of life and get Japanese work experience on your CV.
International company: pretty much the opposite of the above.

Of course there are companies that are a mix. IBM would be one example.
In my company, I'm the only real employee (the rest are Japanese people from our joint-venture company), so I sort of get the best of both....sometimes.

Good luck!

I would have to disagree with Jim about IBM being a 'mix' of working styles. My company has done work with IBM Japan, as well as IBM in other countries. IBM Japan aren't really IBM! They are just another Japanese company.

My gut feeling is to work for a non-Japanese company. I wouldn't want to work for a Japanese company. If you work for a Japanese company, you won't get any free time to explore the more social/non-work side of Japan

Well the company's director is french, the comercial team is Japanese and the IT technician/engineers are french ... 

I have to say that what the director told me sounded a bit weird; he told me it's so hard for him that he comes back to France 3 times a year, one month every time, and as an employee I couldn't do the same. The contract is a local japanese contract with 3 weeks holidays per year. It sounded kind of weird for me because I'm used to see managers work a lot, often more than employees, and this one seems to "escape" when it becomes too complicated.

Just a question: is there foreigners all around the country (the job is based in Nagoya)?

Julien wrote:

The contract is a local japanese contract with 3 weeks holidays per year.

.....

.... I'm used to see managers work a lot, often more than employees .....

Just a question: is there foreigners all around the country (the job is based in Nagoya)?

My question. Is that 3 weeks extra holiday (i.e an extra 15 days) on top of the 15 public holidays in Japan? Some Japanese only get public holidays as holiday, and should one of those holidays fall on Sunday (or Saturday in the case of 5 day working-week people), TOUGH, you've effectively lost a day holiday).

I think here, if you've reached the rank of manager (basically, cos your older rather than actual skill) you allowed to chill out more, and your subordinates do all the work. If I'm going home at normal finishing time, the only Japanese guys I see heading off home on the train and the 50 year old manager looking ones.

To answer your question. Most foreigners are located in and around Tokyo, which groups found in Kyoto (mostly students there), Osaka, Nagoya, Yokohama and any other major cities. I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure Tokyo has a disproportinate number of foreigners compared to other large cities.
There are some foreigners in the countryside, mostly teaching jobs, or people who have decided to settle down in the country.

Thanks a lot for all your answers!

I think those 3 weeks correspond to the 15 public holidays

About the manager working hours, that's interresting, I didn't know things could work this way in Japan!

I asked you about the location of the foreigners because I don't know if japanese people are used to see foreigners in all the country / if there is racism all around the country or only in big cities ...

Julien, I wouldn't worry to much on the racism side of things to be honest.

Its kinda funny actually how it works here. Your average-on-the-street Japanese believes that Japan is not a racist country. The argument in their head is that Japan doesn't have race riots, and various other kinds of race-related violence. No-one is every killed or injured because they are not Japanese, therefore Japan is not racist.
(And in that aspect, I fully agree with them. You will NOT be mugged because you are French).

However, large parts of Japan are 'racist' in other ways.
To be honest, I've only 'suffered' once... I wasn't allowed into a bar with a (non-Japanese work collegue) once because of being non-Japanese... thats it! That was quite annoying cos we really hot, and wanted a nice cold beer!!
The rest of the time, the only things you get a silly little things you can just ignore like being stared at sometimes on the time etc etc, people refusing to even sit next to you sometimes on a busy train (this has it's advantages actually   ).

Anyway, I could rant on for ages about this. Instead, just read Hokkaido Highway Blues if you want to get a feel for it. As Jim said earlier... I try to enjoy the good points of Japan and avoid the bad...

Anyway, back to the work side of things. They are being a little stingy on the holidays in my opinion. Looking at the list in front of me, the public holidays for the rest of this year are
Monday Sept 19, Friday Sept 23 (I like that week! ), Monday October 10, Thursday November 3, Wednesday November 23 (how kind, my and my wife's birthday is on a public holiday, woohooo), and finally Friday December 23. This year, we are lucky, because Christmas falls on a Sunday, so we still get Christmas day 'off'.

Regarding manager workload. This is my personal observation only. It may be different with other firms.
Ohh, here's some 'bad' Japanese for you... "karoshi" - Death from Overwork!
To lighten the mood. He's some "good" Japanese... "Nomikai" = 'Drinking Meeting', i.e. "Piss Up" in colloquiel English. (http://july.fixedreference.org/fr/20040 … ia/Nomikai  for French explanation).

I agree with Jim's way of thinking: "try to enjoy good points and avoid the bad". That's a good way to handle life

About holidays, is it possible to get one or two weeks of holidays?

Another question, is it possible to live outside Tokyo if you don't speak Japanese?

... I am still waiting for news from the employer ...

Julien wrote:

About holidays, is it possible to get one or two weeks of holidays?

Another question, is it possible to live outside Tokyo if you don't speak Japanese?

1. Depends on who you work for! I work for a British company, so even though my office has a registered 'Japanese' company, I get to book holiday just like I did back in UK.
My wife works for a Japanese company. She was very lucky recently to be allowed to take a 'whole' week of work (when I went back to the UK for two days of meetings a couple of weeks ago, she joined me and we made a holiday of it).
Holidays are quite regimented here. Sometimes, the company will tell you when you can take holiday (i.e the company shuts down for 3 days during August).
It is really variable. However, my gut instinct tells me that unless it's specifically written into the contract, you will have a hard time (with a Japanese company) pursuading them to give you two weeks off work in the summer!

2. It is possible to live outside Tokyo wihout Japanese language... but I would also say it's going to be really difficult too! Cities will make it easier. Some cites and towns have support groups for foreigners. Best way to check is to look up the local government website for the place you want to live. First, see if they have an English language (occaisionally, you see French and Spanish too) section with foreign resident information. (Matsudo for example has this page... Matsudo City, and using that I found they had a International Exchange Association who can help.)
Not all places will be like that, and the good old internet can certainly allow you to research this a bit.

Julien, if you want, you can watch the film "Stupeur et Tremblements", french film realised in 2002 from the book of Amelie Nothomb (same title). This is a story of a belgian woman who get a one year contract in a japanese company in Japan ... She speaks very well japanese but she does not at all the japanese culture. Then it is not as good as she thought ... she is moved to clean toilets ...
http://www.allocine.fr/film/fichefilm_g … 46397.html

Regarding this film, the japanese culture seems very far to the european one ...

I'll definitely read the book or watch the movie!

Still no news from the employer (and I've got an interview this week for a job in London). Hurry up employer, send me an email!

Something for you to read Julien.

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=comment&id=843

Thanks Gavin!

To sum up the article, I would say that in Japan:

> your company looks after you (paternalism management) but getting a pay raise is not easy!

> when you start working in a company, the salary is generally low (because you're not effective for the first years), and based on a salary table. You get raised every year, your raise depends on your title/seniority and skills/performance. If your raise is too big, you're a troublemaker.

> wen you're a foreigner, it is very important to negotiate your salary for the beginning (and it's not easy). "Negotiating a raise is a dangerous exercise". You want more money? Work extra hours. Or find another job! (it's easier to negotiate a first salary than a pay raise)

> a good point: if you're in financial trouble, your company can help you. And japanese employees appreciate that.

Do you agree with everything?

It's hard for me to say really.
That article was a bit strange, because it was written by a Job Agency representative, so it was a bit of an advert from them.

Also, I don't work for a Japanese company so I can't be 100% sure about everything.

But, the first two summary points you listed I would probably agree with.
Things are changing a little, hence the comment in the webpage about performance now being factored into your yearly payrise.

Me, I didn't get much of a payrise recently, but I was lucky because I stated on a pretty good salary. So maybe, I agree with point 3 as well.

Point 4. I have no idea if that's really the case or not?

A short update, I've sent an email to the employer few days ago, I've just received an answer that roughly says: "Thanks for your proposition but we've found somebody else".

I'll have to find something else!

Julien, just out of interest, why were you keen to live in Japan?