I'm spanish, maybe moving to Tenerife (various questions)

For your work, best would be getting a gestor and helping him move your business presence to Tenerife than having it in UK. First it would make it properly legal since you will be working in Spain and you therefore have to pay taxes, second it would make your life much easier in the long run since your entire thing will be in Spain and you will have a gestor to sort out all the stuff which would take your time off from work or life.

Registering as an autonomo should do that, however there are types of autonomo with different requirements and advantages, and its difficult to say whether all the activities you will do will fit in one single autonomo.

Ie, if you register for information technology autonomo, your restaurant jobs may not fit in that model. You would need to talk to your gestor about it.

Gestor would also help with a lot of the legal or procedural questions you have. However for some it would also be faster and more efficient if you get an abogado to do it, especially if you have stuff that you would like to benefit from while in Spain.

Your other questions about local stuff is way too specific an doy people from there can respond to them. If you have an acquaintance there or can find an agent or somebody to help you with those stuff, you would make things much easier.

Hi and welcome to the Forum.

I'm not a Spain expert but can answer a general question about tax, UK EHIC cards and mobile phones.

Where you are assessed for tax is wholly dependent on where you are classed as a resident for more than 6 months in the tax year, so if you live in Spain for 6 months and 1 day, you will be classed as resident in Spain and be assessed there on your worldwide income.

A UK EHIC card is of no use to you if you are resident in Spain, you will have to do whatever the other Spanish people do.  The UK EHIC is for UK residents to use when they need emergency medical treatment abroad, nothing else.

Phone Sims - yes, a Spanish SIM will work in a UK mobile, but you do have to make sure that you get the phone unlocked from its current mobile supplier.

Hopefully, someone who knows more about Spain will be along shortly to answer your other questions.

Hope this helps.

Cynic
Expert Team

Just a couple of points as i do not have much time at the moment

If one moves to Spain, they become tax resident immediately,  the six month rule does apply.

Only genuine visitors can use an EHIC.

I know someone who wanted to work casually in  a couple of bars, he was not permitted to become autonomy (self-employed) as the tax office see that as trick to get around being actually employed.

Thanks for the help.

I suppose I could still get an EHIC, in case I decide to go on holiday to another european country. Where in Spain can you get them? Can you just go to any doctor and fill in a form like in the UK?

In the UK, if you're registered as a sole trader, it doesn't interfere with employed work at all. You can do both and it's not an issue. You do your job, they tax you, and you do your self employed work, and you pay your own tax, all separate, no problem.

Why can't they treat self employed work and employed work as separate?

I'm not prepared to let the spanish gov mess up my plans, and so the idea of them not letting me be self employed just because I might do some shifts in a bar is unacceptable.

So, how about I remain self employed as a sole trader with HMRC, I keep my business account in the UK, I do my online self employed work in Tenerife, and I pay myself from my UK business account into a spanish regular account? Would that be a good idea?

Jeremiahxyz wrote:

Thanks for the help.

I suppose I could still get an EHIC, in case I decide to go on holiday to another european country. Where in Spain can you get them? Can you just go to any doctor and fill in a form like in the UK?
.......

So, how about I remain self employed with HMRC, I keep my business account in the UK, I do my online self employed work in Tenerife, and I pay myself from my UK business account into a spanish regular account? Would that be a good idea?

Hi again.

If you live in Spain you will need a Spanish equivalent of the EHIC; you would need it, for example, to see a doctor in the UK should you decide to visit once you have moved to Spain.  I have no idea who issues them in Spain, only that every country appears to have a different system to achieve the same end.

If you live in Spain, you will be assessed in Spain for taxes on your worldwide income; which as Johncar has told us, will be from day 1.

Hope this helps.

Cynic
Expat Team

I have no problem with that. The issue is not being allowed to be self employed and also have a job.

Jeremiahxyz wrote:

I have no problem with that. The issue is not being allowed to be self employed and also have a job.

You must talk that with a gestor and ask. It may or may not be possible for you to have a job, and an autonomo activity outside of that job field.

You cant be an autonomo and work in the same field of activity in a job, however. Its forbidden since corporations are exploiting it to hire employees as 'contractors' and pay them less than minimum wage. It would only work if you are an autonomo, and you have more than one client paying you.

In all cases, Spain is not UK. Do not expect things to be the same, and do not operate on the assumption that things (especially legal) will be similar in Spain.

That's why its best to get yourself a gestor.

IF you are qualified for an EHIC by UK then that is the country which issues it.  That you may live in Spain does not affect that

If you are so qualified you don't need an EHIC issued by UK to obtain medical attention in UK

QUOTE I'm not prepared to let the spanish gov mess up my plans, and so the idea of them not letting me be self employed just because I might do some shifts in a bar is unacceptable.

OK you have the remedy,  do not come to live in Spain.

Jeremiahxyz wrote:

So, how about I remain self employed as a sole trader with HMRC, I keep my business account in the UK, I do my online self employed work in Tenerife, and I pay myself from my UK business account into a spanish regular account? Would that be a good idea?

No. That's a bad idea since its illegal. You will be working inside Spain. It doesnt matter whether your business presence is in UK, and your work is 'online'. You are physically present in Spain while you are doing that work. Therefore you have to pay taxes in the country where you do the work. This is valid for almost every developed country. If you are engaging in revenue generating activity while being present in a country, you are obliged to pay taxes there. Only if you are in temporary status, like for 3 months or so temporary visa in most cases, that does not apply. But then you cant benefit from any legal protections, social security, retirement fund and other stuff.

Even so that in the case of Spain, if you are resident for more than a certain number of months, you have to pay taxes over your income abroad as far as i know.

Unless you are an employee of a foreign corporation, and by some weird reason you are paying taxes in a foreign country related to that employment, if that country has a treaty to prevent double taxation with Spain that covers that condition, then you may not pay taxes in Spain but in that other country. That is an extreme exception case and will definitely not apply to your own small business.

........

I didnt pay attention to the part of your post which Johncar quoted. It does not matter whether something is unacceptable to you or not - if its the law, you need to follow it. And in Spain, its Spanish law, not UK law.

Paying 20% something taxes and enjoying all kinds of legal protections, amenities, benefits, retirement, other government aid and many more is a no brainer. Just talk with a gestor, choose a good format for your business activities to register for, and do it by the book and you wont have to look back.

There seems to be confusion.

Of course I'd love to be like Delboy and Rodney and pay no income tax no vat. All of you would too. But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm merely saying that it seems very weird to not be able to do some online work plus a few shifts in a bar or something now and then. Like you easily can in the UK. There's nothing unreasonable about wanting to do that. In fact, it's commendable. But Spain loves red tape and they love to micromanage people's lives.

I'm kind of hoping against hope that maybe it's not like that, and that maybe in fact you can do both. It's insane to not be able to do something like that. In the UK you register as self employed with HMRC, you do your thing, and if you want to do a job too, you do that, and PAYE  takes care of the tax. It's kept separate. You don't have to choose between being an employee and being self employed.

The UK is a really terrible country in many ways, and it's getting worse, but to its credit, at least they've got this right. But Spain is very backwards when it comes to this.

Jeremiahxyz wrote:

There seems to be confusion.

Of course I'd love to be like Delboy and Rodney and pay no income tax no vat. All of you would too.

False proposition.

I'm merely saying that it seems very weird to not be able to do some online work plus a few shifts in a bar or something now and then. Like you easily can in the UK. There's nothing unreasonable about wanting to do that. In fact, it's commendable. But Spain loves red tape and they love to micromanage people's lives.

I very much think that if you have such notions as you describe, you'd be better of in UK or in US.

In every single developed country the practice is as such - you pay taxes where you do the work activity. There are no exceptions but UK, US and their various jurisdictions.

There is nothing reasonable with tax-dodging either. If people dont participate in maintaining their society, it just breaks down. Literally.

https://www.businessinsider.com/asce-gi … a-d-2017-3

The UK is a really terrible country in many ways, and it's getting worse, but to its credit, at least they've got this right.

But Spain is very backwards when it comes to this.

Those two statements contradict.

If what UK was doing in general was right, you wouldnt want to get out of UK. You would stay there.

If what Spain doing was wrong, we would be the ones who would be wanting to get out of Spain.

We arent.

Leaving aside the tax-dodging issue, the particular thing which is to your dislike is made to protect you and millions of other people. Even in the current state many corporations are exploiting people and employing them as contractors to be able to pay them less then the minimum wage which they are legally obliged to pay. That's cheating. Its illegal. Its also unethical.

The combination of such 'red tape' makes Spain a more livable place as opposed to the 'business friendly' environment which has turned US into a hell for ordinary people, and which is doing the same to the UK.

..........

If you work full time in a job, it will need to be separate from your business activity area since this will trigger the protection. Ie, if you work in a restaurant as a camarero but you are also an autonomo who sells online jewelry, that should be legal and acceptable.

Again, get yourself a gestor before you come to Spain. Find one in Tenerife. You can have a gestor for as low as 50 euro/month, and they will not only advise you on all these matters, but they will also maintain your digital certificate for you and fulfill all obligations towards hacienda which you are obliged with. All you would need to do would be to properly file your income every 3 months to your gestor, which s/he will process and file to hacienda. Then you will pay hacienda from your account automatically.

With all respect, the first part of your post shows an almost unbelievable misunderstanding on your part.

I'm not talking about tax dodging nor is my UK/Spain comparison contradictory. It would be a waste of my time and energy bothering to try to explain it again. Life is too short, so let's just leave it there as I don't see any personal benefit in convincing you.

As for working and being self employed, it would probably be part time, and probably / preferably also on a casual basis, and not connected at all to my online work. It would most likely be in a bar / restaurant / hotel, while my online work would be nothing related to that.

You're saying that this would be acceptable, which I hope is true. If it is ok, on what basis would that be? In what cases would there be a problem?

If you're right that it would be no problem, then great. But then of course there's the fact that having to pay a gestor and social security every month would financially cripple almost anyone who is trying to make a go of it as self employed. Spain is not very friendly to people who want to be their own boss. The UK, for all its faults, gets this right.

By the way this threw me off. Johncar said :

"I know someone who wanted to work casually in  a couple of bars, he was not permitted to become autonomy (self-employed) as the tax office see that as trick to get around being actually employed."

I thought he meant that the person wanted to work in a bar plus also work as self employed doing something else, which is what I want to do. All I want to do is make a few quid online (or as much as possible) and work part time in bars as well.

You said :

"I didnt pay attention to the part of your post which Johncar quoted. It does not matter whether something is unacceptable to you or not - if its the law, you need to follow it. And in Spain, its Spanish law, not UK law."

The part that you didn't pay attention to is what I have quoted above. He seemed to be saying that you can't work self employed plus also work a job. The reason why I assumed that's what he meant was because if that wasn't what he meant, his example would have been irrelevant. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and treating him as though he had understood my original post.

Basically, Johncar misunderstood me, I assumed that he had understood my original post, and you have misunderstood a lot of what I said. But fuck all that, the bottom line is that, as you say, and I hope you're correct, I can indeed work online from home and work in bars too. Which is good news. However the red tape is still an issue. I may have to do some illegal stuff to get around it.

Just kidding.

Jeremiahxyz wrote:

You're saying that this would be acceptable, which I hope is true. If it is ok, on what basis would that be? In what cases would there be a problem?

If you were registered as an autonomo in a field related to restaurant work, and you had only one customer which regularly pays you, that could constitute a problem. Since it could mean that the restaurant is maintaining you as a contractor to avoid paying you full minimum wage and also they are potentially dodging taxes over it.

But then of course there's the fact that having to pay a gestor and social security every month would financially cripple almost anyone who is trying to make a go of it as self employed. Spain is not very friendly to people who want to be their own boss. The UK, for all its faults, gets this right.

In any country, you can do your tax stuff yourself, and in any country possibility of making a mistake today which will bite you back after some years, remains high. IRS in US has a very notorious reputation for that, even in a country which is so much 'business friendly'.

Hiring a gestor prevents a lot of such potential issues and provides time for the person to just concentrate on his or her business activity.

I dont think Spain's autonomo models, their tax obligations and the protections remain in any way behind UK's. I very much think that they are noticeably better. There is a lot of trade off done in respect to social security, protections and similar critical and more expensive stuff in US or UK, to provide a few percent more tax break. Which does nothing for the small business, but a lot for the mega business. I dont think yours is the latter...

Additionally autonomos have ~2 years of tax breaks and social security breaks. It couldnt be better.

And any business which cant afford to get a gestor for a 50 Euro/month could not be classified as a business anyway.

By the way this threw me off. Johncar said :

"I know someone who wanted to work casually in  a couple of bars, he was not permitted to become autonomy (self-employed) as the tax office see that as trick to get around being actually employed."

I thought he meant that the person wanted to work in a bar plus also work as self employed, which is what I want to do. All I want to do is make a fee quid online (or as much as possible) and work part time in bars as well.

In that case the person would be working in various bars, in the same industry, but not becoming a proper full time employee. Ie the definition of the problem described above.

If you work full time in a bar, registered as an employee properly, being paid minimum wage legally, and have a business in a different field, that could work.

And, this entire thread is an excellent example of why you are incorrect in your earlier assessment:

Instead of contacting and contracting a gestor which could have answered this question decisively, and even actually get started on setting you up properly, you are totally wasting your time asking us questions about a delicate legal matter, which may or may not provide you the correct resolution.

Gestor would have saved you from all the time and processing power went to this question. And you could have spent that resource for marketing or any other activity which could benefit your business.

......

In any case i believe we discussed enough. I doubt there is any legal professional immediately available in this forum who can decisively answer this question for you.