Language barriers in Hungary

Some Hungarian expressions are funny or just strange in translation.
Something that is clever in one language is lame in another.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Some Hungarian expressions are funny or just strange in translation.
Something that is clever in one language is lame in another.

Yes exactly. Like if you take, I forget who said it, "L'ésprit d'escalier". That is usually translated into English as "staircase wit", the stuff that you wish you had thought of a minute ago, to make the joke a minute before. Literally "the spirit of the staircase", that you come down from dinner (if you are posh) and make jokes on the stairs, and you forget the joke or bon mot.... indeed again "bon mot" won't work, in French it means a well-chosen phrase or joke, but translate that into English it just means "good word", well that won't do, will it.

SimonTrew wrote:

.....
We are getting very much off topic here. If you want, I can give you several copies of first editions of "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and Plauger, but you still probably will think I am an idiot....

Nicklaus Wirth who wrote Pascal and MODULA-2 was once asked, according to legend, "How do you pronounce your surname?" He said well you can call me by name, "wirth", or call me by value, "worth"...

I've got my own copy of that book.  What a great book that is.

I forgot to mention Ada in my list.

Personally I thought it was too rigid and proper, so I still prefer C as it's liberating.

SimonTrew wrote:

... My Mum actually worked on LEO, Lyons Electronic Operator, the first business computer in the world (Joe Lyons was the first to purchase a computer for use, rather than it just being fiddled with by univeristy wonks), .....

Your Mum worked at Lyons?

That takes the biscuit.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I forgot to mention Ada in my list.

I actually had a copy of "The ADA Programming Language" written by a certain I. C. Pyle, had it on my bookshelf for years. ADA was really a bit too heavy for the computers of the time, it would really grunt and shunt on a VAX-11/780 and was a bit too heavy with the syntax really to get through all the parsers, it took hours to compile the simplest thing.

The best man at my wedding, the person who wrote that book "The ADA programming language", was his uncle, so I gave it to him as a kinda present... He also had "The Puffin Book of Explosives" which for some reason doesn't seem to be in print any more.

SimonTrew wrote:

.....

I don't think it is irrelevant. If you understand Chomsky grammars, then you can "parse" most languages fairly easily but it doesn't mean you can understand the words that hang off the tree. Yes, you CAN guess a lot of Hungarian words, there are a lot of import-words and so on, you also get lots of "false friends" like a "Bolt" in Hungarian is not the same as a "Bolt" in English, so well done for guessing that one... the days of the week you just have to learn, you can't guess them from English or French, vásarnáp Sunday, market day, is not called after the Sun. hétfő, Monday, is not called after the moon, as "Lundi" or "Monday" is. You CAN guess, but your guess will be incorrect about 75% of the time. Of course you can guess what a super-dizkont is going to be, a discount store. But for many many things, you cannot guess. You have to learn. I think it is supercilious to suggest that you don't sit and study and learn a language but can just get away with it by the skin of your teeth by guessing from other languages.

The key here is mutual understanding.  It's not computer programming. Sure  you can do parsing if you want to do linguistics but that's academic.  It's important to be able to muddle through at any moment in time. As for - Chomsky - bah, humbug, who cares.

hétfő is easy to understand as it's the start of the week (literally).

The example of "bolt" is not a good one as it's clearly not in the same theme.  I would say, something more like - in Russian - "machina" which one would think is a machine and sort of is but it's  actually a car.  That's more of a false friend.

Looking around in neighbours and history, take "pentek", in Croatian, it's "petak" which gives you the idea of pentagram - 5 sided figure - 5th day as in "pentek".   Same with Szerda. It's "srijeda" in Croatian.

One of the most surprising ones I saw was in Turkey - Kapi is gate there, Kapu here. You can draw on other knowledge to get through communication. It makes sense to do that.

Stupid story on mistranslation - in the schools here, there's a campaign going on for HPV vaccinations - HPV is Human Papilloma Virus. Mrs Fluffy said that anti-vaccination groups are saying you can get this disease from other other people and amazingly, from your computer.   Jeez, I never knew.  Why do they say you can get it from your computer?  Because the morons mistranslated digital manipulation.  Oh, how we laughed!

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I forgot to mention Ada in my list.

I actually had a copy of "The ADA Programming Language" written by a certain I. C. Pyle, had it on my bookshelf for years. ADA was really a bit too heavy for the computers of the time, it would really grunt and shunt on a VAX-11/780 and was a bit too heavy with the syntax really to get through all the parsers, it took hours to compile the simplest thing.

The best man at my wedding, the person who wrote that book "The ADA programming language", was his uncle, so I gave it to him as a kinda present... He also had "The Puffin Book of Explosives" which for some reason doesn't seem to be in print any more.

I used it on an training machine - an 11/750 - when I was on passive radar detection and it was basically shite to code in.   More than 3 people and you might as well go for coffee while it spewed out all your mistakes. Crappy thing.  Like coding for a police state nazi compiler.  More of a teaching tool than anything else.

Big Book of Explosives or Book of Big Explosives?  Taliban edition?

Strangely, talking of which, I've got a DVD featuring only atomic bomb tests with footage of mushroom clouds taken from the tests. I think it's narrated by Captain Kirk - William Shatner.   The underground explosions are the most interesting.

I KNOW that machine translation doesn't work, I don't have to be told that. My degree twenty years ago was in machine translation and I can tell you what the back end and front end does. If you don't sit and work out what Chomsky was saying, there is no point making the argument, because I KNOW MORE THAN YOU. I do NOT like to be told what my job is. I have TURNED DOWN jobs for translation companies. I still, now, because of some bit of paperwork, have to get a professional translator to rubber stamp some piece of crap of mine, even though I speak Hungarian every day, I do not have an Óklével in it. Even though my wife is a native Hungarian, I need to get a professional translator. That is just how it works. I do NOT need to be told how languages work.

SimonTrew wrote:

I have written my undergraduate degree thesis in COBOL, done Java, worked in C++ for many years and contributed to the language commitee, was an MVP in C++, er, FORTRAN-66, PL/M-96, Z80 assembler, 6502 assembler, 8109 assembler, PL-65, VAX-TPU, VAX-11 machine code, need I go on?

No, you don't need to go on. Because anyone can claim anything. You simply need to prove it as requested.



Still waiting......

SimonTrew wrote:

I KNOW MORE THAN YOU.

Just your opinion.

SimonTrew wrote:

even though I speak Hungarian every day, I do not have an Óklével in it.

The point of external certificates is to prove your competence to an agreed standard. You just want us to all "believe" your competence level only based on what you say. Without proof. Sorry. But I, for one, won't.

SimonTrew wrote:

I do NOT need to be told how languages work.

Maybe you do. No one knows everything. Life long learning. Maybe someone here, might, maybe, just possibly, know more than you do. Assuming otherwise, is maybe just being arrogant. 

Seriously.... No need to write in caps. Chill.   

SimonTrew wrote:

I have TURNED DOWN jobs for translation companies..

Name the companies. Allow anyone interested to check if true. 

To me having a degree just means you got "approved" for one skill or the other.
In that case I have several degrees.
One took me several years to receive , cosmetology.
Still have a active "degree" in that field although I do not plan on using it any longer.
Doesn't mean I know how to do all hair types or am a master in my field. Hardly .
Things are always changing and new skills are needed even for people with experience in any given field .
My niece who I suppose I am a bit proud of although I try not to be prideful of people, places, objects etc.
Well she has  no degree at all , just went to high school but has the brains, style, class and personality to have beat out so many others for her job.
She is the facilities manager of a major fortune 500 co.
She now manages 3 large offices, is in charge of buying and setting up all the offices from ash trays to paperclips, pens and what wines and teas are in the common rooms for the IT people.
Buys the desks, chairs everything to make a office a office.
She takes care of every detail , notices finger prints on a window or dust on the counter tops.
She hires and fires all cleaning staff, from carpet cleaners to window washers for 3 offices.
One in SF,Ca. one in Las Vegas and recently she now in charge of their Chicago office.
She is a single mother of a 12 year old girl, a widow and really is pulling it all together with the help of her husbands mom and family.
Her wealthy grandparents owned a bagel shop in N Ca. and made all their teenage grandkids work there for experience.She learned to work and pay her way as a kid.
Her extended family baby-sit when my niece has to travel for work or her cousins sit for her for days or weeks.
Just a smart gal with a super big personality and know how, no degree can teach anyone to have personality.
( She is also very tall, they say tall people do well in life, not sure but have heard that many times)
My son as well,he hated school, took a test at age 15 in the 10th grade and left.
Tried auto mechanic school for 2 weeks, the teacher asked us to take him out, he has 2 left hands and was really too young to take it seriously at the time.
Sounds like a loser, he is a manager of a large casino in Las Vegas, no college at all.
He also got his NV real estate papers with only taking off one week of work to study and passed his first time around. The market dropped right then so he never sold a house, was too busy with his day job, did however get hired by a real estate co. and had his business cards etc.
Not his thing, selling.
Not everyone needs to go to college but everyone needs to learn some sort of skill or trade.
My niece doesn't speak a second language either as far as I know.
My son speaks some Japanese but almost useless in NV.

I never said you can get it from machine translation, I am arguing AGAINST that. I studied machine translation at university twenty five years ago under one of the best teachers, Harold Somers, and I KNOW what limits it has. What I am arguing against is people think they throw something into Gtrans and magically a perfect translation appears - I shall tell you it won't

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

To me having a degree just means you got "approved" for one skill or the other.
In that case I have several degrees.
One took me several years to receive , cosmetology.

Totally agree with you Marilyn, I just have a basic degree from the University of Manchester and that's it,I can buy a PhD or Dr for ten pounds if I gave a shit about what letters were before or after my name. Since I have a very short name, I have more letters after or before it than are actually in it, but I only use those on my CV/resume not in real life... standing on ceremony like that.

I am technically Simon Trew BSc(Hons) MVP MIET MBCS... I do not say that every time I go to the shop, they say hello Simon, or hello Si. (I prefer Si but in Hungary they don't really get that as a short form so I am usually Simon).

Hardly 'lack of exposure to other people, languages etc'...!!
The country was invaded by the Turks for 150 years, then the Germans during WW II and then by the Soviets for over 50 years til 1989 and the Russian language & Soviet abuse etc was forced on the people.
Please do your homework before commenting about the 'intolerance' of Hungarians!   I think
this has had a great effect, understandably.

Klara14 wrote:

Hardly 'lack of exposure to other people, languages etc'...!!
The country was invaded by the Turks for 150 years, then the Germans during WW II and then by the Soviets for over 50 years til 1989 and the Russian language & Soviet abuse etc was forced on the people.
Please do your homework before commenting about the 'intolerance' of Hungarians!   I think
this has had a great effect, understandably.

I'll play.....

I think that's not that relevant as an argument. We're talking generational changes which turnover  faster than historical occupations.  It only takes 2 generations (grandparents) and the link to what went before is lost. 

It's recent history and current internal politics that makes Hungary appear a less tolerant place at the macro level. I've been here 20+ years and I've seen it change.

Isolationalist and nationalist policies are not good for a country that relies on trade.

Klara14 wrote:

Hardly 'lack of exposure to other people, languages etc'...!!
The country was invaded by the Turks for 150 years, then the Germans during WW II and then by the Soviets for over 50 years til 1989 and the Russian language & Soviet abuse etc was forced on the people.

There is a very large and significant difference between being invaded, which comes with total resistance to the invaders language, culture, ideas and actions. Which means, de facto, avoiding cultural exposure and integration to the influences of these invaders despite their ubiquitous presence. Versus willingly (or not) welcoming, cultivating, and integrating the exposure of external sources of information and ideas.

Klara14 wrote:

Please do your homework before commenting about the 'intolerance' of Hungarians!

No one here at this thread used the word 'intolerance' before you. Not really appropriate to 'quote' what people supposedly wrote, before anyone actually wrote it.

In the summer of 2000 we met an American retired fireman from AZ who lived in the same apt. house in the 5th district where we temp. stayed.
He had been living for over 2 years in Budapest but didn't know even one word of Hungarian.
His world was very small, he had a routine he followed almost daily.
Only walked within a few blocks of his flat.
He had coffee every morning at the same shop and bough his groceries from the same shop and never tried anything new.
So it is possible to live in Hungary and not speak the language but who really wants to be that limited.
He was an interesting old guy.
Very odd considering he had been working in a serious job as a firefighter.
He thought himself to be a spiritual healer.
Hardly.
He said he had been married for a very short time to a HU women but they divorced, guess that's how he found himself in Hungary.
We asked why they divorced and he only said, "She never drank water".
Guess she was a boozer then?
He knew one HU women who had been a friend of his ex wife.
She was giving him monthly massages, whatever that entailed...
My husband thought it a crime that he never left his 3 block area so he invited him for a day out and took him to the Rudas spa.
Long story but he introduced my son to his  now ex- HU wife.
Seems the women who gave him monthly massages had a friend who had a daughter etc.
He was ready to move to the UK at the same time we left that building.
He was going to London to learn to fly, without a plane to quote him...
Just saying he was a bit off his rocker if you get my drift.

In fact, someone did write that the Hungarians were completely intolerant, which was what prompted me to reply!!  This comment I saw appears to have been removed by the administration!

For those of you, who are not familiar with how Hungary was treated by the invading forces, German
and Soviet,  a trip to The House of Terror, a museum located at Andrássy út 60
may be useful. Hungarians  remember their past and it is not lost in 2 generations, as it is in
some cultures. They are proudly patriotic, as every country should be. Proud of their people and culture and history. They would not like a repeat of an invasion and take over again.

Klara14 wrote:

In fact, someone did write that the Hungarians were completely intolerant, which was what prompted me to reply!!  This comment I saw appears to have been removed by the administration!

For those of you, who are not familiar with how Hungary was treated by the invading forces, German
and Soviet,  a trip to The House of Terror, a museum located at Andrássy út 60
may be useful. Hungarians  remember their past and it is not lost in 2 generations, as it is in
some cultures. They are proudly patriotic, as every country should be. Proud of their people and culture and history. They would not like a repeat of an invasion and take over again.

That's rose tinted spectacles, histrionics and over simplified.   

Hungarians may be patriotic but in WW2 they weren't all innocent nor were they particularly badly treated unless they were Jewish. Horthy aligned Hungary as part of Hitler's deal to return to the pre-Trianon borders. So the Nazis* were welcomed at first.

Many Hungarians were complicit in Nazi-led atrocities such as the vilification and eventual deportation of the Jews. And as we all know, Hungary was part of the Axis powers so this was part of the price of being in that club.  Everyone here should know the story of Raoul Wallenberg.

Also some Hungarian people really believed in Communism.  That's well within living memory but it's still only about 2 generations.  Being aligned to the Nazis is one reason why Hungary ended up in the Soviet sphere. 

It's almost 30 years since the fall of the Iron Curtain so there's a generation now who have never known that kind of oppression. 

Considering what the political situation is like in Hungary and elsewhere, it's rather unfortunate to hijack patriotism. We've seen what happens with that. And so,  history repeats itself.

Oh, and of course, the winners/victors get to write the history books.

Anyway, who is invading Hungary at the moment? Who would want to? And for what purpose?

*I did not write German deliberately, I wrote Nazis as not all Germans were Nazis just like not all Hungarians were complicit.

Klara14 wrote:

In fact, someone did write that the Hungarians were completely intolerant

Ah, yes, now you finally got it right with the correct quote.

To me, such details matter.

But.... that still does not mean you understood the comment in context. Which was my main point.

And which you seem to self confirm, with:

Klara14 wrote:

For those of you, who are not familiar with how Hungary was treated by the invading forces, German and Soviet,.

We are all pretty familiar with this. Assuming we don't might be misinterpreted as you are being intolerant of the historical knowledge of expats....

And, as already stated by another, you are (probably grossly over) simplifying history. And as I already said, you are misinterpreting what people meant by "exposure" and seem to be assuming, and arguing, your definition is the only viable one. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but having an opinion is not necessarily the same as fully understanding the issue, comment, discussion, and intent of the written words by others; or that your are right.

All very ironic in a topic of "language barriers" as your posts seem to be confirming there indeed are significant language barriers.

As for patriotism... Everyone has their own opinions about that. Especially when referring to false patriotism (such as when used for base political expediency), as when Samuel Johnson said:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. "

fluffy2560 wrote:

Klara14 wrote:

In fact, someone did write that the Hungarians were completely intolerant, which was what prompted me to reply!!  This comment I saw appears to have been removed by the administration!

For those of you, who are not familiar with how Hungary was treated by the invading forces, German
and Soviet,  a trip to The House of Terror, a museum located at Andrássy út 60
may be useful. Hungarians  remember their past and it is not lost in 2 generations, as it is in
some cultures. They are proudly patriotic, as every country should be. Proud of their people and culture and history. They would not like a repeat of an invasion and take over again.

That's rose tinted spectacles, histrionics and over simplified.   

Hungarians may be patriotic but in WW2 they weren't all innocent nor were they particularly badly treated unless they were Jewish. Horthy aligned Hungary as part of Hitler's deal to return to the pre-Trianon borders. So the Nazis* were welcomed at first.

Many Hungarians were complicit in Nazi-led atrocities such as the vilification and eventual deportation of the Jews. And as we all know, Hungary was part of the Axis powers so this was part of the price of being in that club.  Everyone here should know the story of Raoul Wallenberg.

Also some Hungarian people really believed in Communism.  That's well within living memory but it's still only about 2 generations.  Being aligned to the Nazis is one reason why Hungary ended up in the Soviet sphere. 

It's almost 30 years since the fall of the Iron Curtain so there's a generation now who have never known that kind of oppression. 

Considering what the political situation is like in Hungary and elsewhere, it's rather unfortunate to hijack patriotism. We've seen what happens with that. And so,  history repeats itself.

Oh, and of course, the winners/victors get to write the history books.

Anyway, who is invading Hungary at the moment? Who would want to? And for what purpose?

*I did not write German deliberately, I wrote Nazis as not all Germans were Nazis just like not all Hungarians were complicit.

Lol no the political reality was that either Hungary allies itself with  nazi Germany or got invaded by it and taken over fast it probably would been worse , if we want to learn something from the second world war based on our history and not others is that we need weapons something really destructive capable killing half the humanity or something like that

panzer25 wrote:

....
Lol no the political reality was that either Hungary allies itself with  nazi Germany or got invaded by it and taken over fast it probably would been worse , if we want to learn something from the second world war based on our history and not others is that we need weapons something really destructive capable killing half the humanity or something like that

Of course we all know Horthy didn't have much choice but Hungary was then punished for backing the wrong horse and suffered during for the years of communism thereafter.  And this has fueled the misplaced nationalism we see now.

I don't think you really mean Hungary should have (nuclear) weapons (which is what you said above in bold).  If you do mean that, maybe you'd like to elaborate ....a lot.....

fluffy2560 wrote:

panzer25 wrote:

....
Lol no the political reality was that either Hungary allies itself with  nazi Germany or got invaded by it and taken over fast it probably would been worse , if we want to learn something from the second world war based on our history and not others is that we need weapons something really destructive capable killing half the humanity or something like that

Of course we all know Horthy didn't have much choice but of course, Hungary was then punished for backing the wrong horse and suffered during for the years of communism thereafter.  And this has fueled the misplaced nationalism we see now.

I don't think you really mean Hungary should have (nuclear) weapons (which is what you said above in bold).  If you do mean that, maybe you'd like to elaborate ....a lot.....

Hungary always seems to back the wrong horse... my wife and I actually translated and edited the Wikipedia articles on the revolution of 1848/1849. They backed the wrong side in WW1 and, having not learned their lesson, the same in WW2. They seem forever being invaded and backing the wrong horse.

Unfortunately now the Arena Plaza is a shopping mall instead of a racecourse it is not even POSSIBLE now to back the wrong horse, however hard you try. Good attempt at stopping to back the wrong horse, but I imagine they will manage, somehow.

This country is going to the dogs. No, hang on, they don't do greyhound racing - so we can't go to the dogs. Well whatever we go to.

I have a racetrack here at home, it is just a bit of old carpet that I have marked in six lanes and you just get nodding dogs or any fluffy toy from the cheap shop, and you put them in six lanes. You then mark out the lanes, you do not have to be perfect just a marker pen, into six lanes, and you can do horse racing (if they happen to be horses) or dog racing (mine happen to be nodding dogs) or whatever, you need about thirty squares.

You need two big dice,  preferably great big fluffy dice, but they seem hard to get. First dice says which one moves. Second says how far.

It is quite a good family game because the children love throwing the dice and moving the toys, and the adults have a bet for a penny. Of course it is purely chance but is quite a fun game you can just make yourself for Christmas or Boxing Day. Use a bit of wallpaper, I guess, if you have some spare, doesn't really matter.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Some Hungarian expressions are funny or just strange in translation.
Something that is clever in one language is lame in another.

Very much. I am constantly battling if that is an appropriate word with my missus with this. If you say "That is about as much use as a snake in a butt kicking competition"( (I would use a rather different word but not here) that just does not translate to Hungarian, it makes no sense. I mean literally I can translate it, but it makes no sense at all.

Or you take the French expression "L'ésprit d'escalier", spirit of the staircase, literally, or "staircase wit" it is often translated as. That you think of some witty remark a bit too late and so as you are going down the staircase after your dinner and port you think of it too late.

It really makes no sense in English, however you transcribe it, yet every French person would recognise that idiom immediately, and probably tell you who said it, who I forget - no doubt I could look it up, but that is exactly the point.

Like we we looking round some castles and churches the other day, we had a day out in Vészprem, not sure that is the right spelling, and very pretty they are too. But then there is a load of Latin on the Church which I can understand but the missus can't, so now I am translating from Latin to Hungarian to English all at the same time and someone then comes and starts talking to me in German.

For some reason, everyone thinks I am German. I don't understand German at all beyond bitte and gesundheit and the back of a beer bottle, but they will kinda insist to keep talking to me in German. I say nem, kerem, magyarul vagy angolul, and they carry on in German, I don't know why they keep doing this to me, I am not German, I just told you I am not German and don't speak German. It is not as if I have a Hitler moustache or anything, but for some reason people assume I am German. I think because I look "Aryan" as Hitler put it, that I have blonde hair (what is left of it) and blue eyes that they assume I am German. It is a bit annoying, please speak to me in Hungarian, I will understand you.

My missus bought a book of idioms or proverbs I forget which I think both when she first moved to England about ten years ago, and it is kinda nonsense, I think we chucked it, that you get all these books of proverbs or idoms but they don't tell you the origin or how it came about.

For example, to "know your onions" is meaningful in English, to know your stuff, but to a Frenchman, who is well aware of what an onion is, it just makes no sense at all. You are quite right, Marilyn.

There are some Hungarian words like toi-toi for a temporary toilet, what we would call in British English a portaloo, that are just nicer somehow. How better a word do you want than "toi-toi", you think, I think Portaloo is a brand actually and kinda protect it but it has become a genericized trademark however hard they try, but "toi-toi" is exactly the right word for one of those temporary toilets they put on building sites or campgrounds, that is exactly the right word, I don't know why, I have toilets at home but it just seems to fit somehow.

There are lots of Hungarian words that seem to fit better than English so we kind "slip" into Hungarian and use whatever is the easier word to say.

Like, take the slang for a potato, "krumpli", now that is a very good word. "borgonya", the proper word, is rubbish, but "krumpli" somehow is just a nice word for a spud. They are not particulary crumply (unless the market has fobbed you off) but it just somehow seems to "fit", of course it is going to be a krumpli, it just seems "natural".

Yet other words you do have to go around the houses. What you have to do with Hungarian, to learn it, is learn where to break up the words. Get a good dictionary, the Akademia Kiado do some nice ones and you just have to learn it. YOU HAVE TO LEARN IT, there are no shortcuts. Indeed I don't know the word for "shortcut". There are thousands of words I do not know, like the things on the end of my trousers, turn-ups, have no idea what they would be. Now would that be the same as something turning up on my doorstep? It might be, it might not. Sometimes you get a "free ride" as my linguistics teacher called it, that it just HAPPENS to be the same between languages, but I bet you a turn-up and a turn-down are going to be completely different in Hungarian, if I checked it, or how do you translate "three-point-turn"? It is just one of those British English idioms that probably would make no sense to an American or Canadian let alone a Hungarian.

Wittgenstein said that you cannot understand something without knowing the words for it, but he was a pillock. There are lots and lots of things that I know perfectly well what they are, just not what they are called.

We usually speak English at home and Hungarian on the street, and so we are constantly "slipping" between the two, I think that is the linguistic term. Like, saying "póhar" for half a pint of beer (yes technically 250ml but the English idiom would be half a pint, because you still must serve in pints in England) is just somehow "nicer", it is a lot quicker to say a "póhar" than "half a pint", or "ketto szaz és fél millimeter" or whatever it would be. I can actually do metric.

One of the strangest things of Hungary as that all the plumbing is done in BS standard fit, which we don't actually use in Britain now, all the plumbing is metric. So now I have to go to the store and try to work out what a quarter inch BS nut is.ű

I KNOW what it is, but I don't know what an "inch" is in Hungarian. I know what it is in Latin, uncia, which is the same word as your thumb, for fairly obvious reasons.

Or asking for six feet of two-by-four. Now, it is not the Hungarian that is the battle, it is converting imperial to metric that is the battle. How do I translate two-by-four? In English it is just known as two-by-four, simple wooden plank. Yes I can translate that as 25x50mm or whatever, and it will be, although not quite because that is the unplaned size, so it will come out a bit smaller, but it you can't translate "two-by-four" in that way, it would make no sense.

You get a lot of false friends and one that my Hungarian missus uses is "by". If I say "that is six by two", for example, I mean "muliplied by". She means "divided by". So now we are going in completely different directions, that I am multiplying while she is dividing. That is English, but must come out of her Hungarian as a translation.

Her English is very good but she makes these kinda slips now and again.

When we were coming back on the train, a woman, I think American (from the accent) was talking to her son, fair enough spotting the sights and the cows etc, and said "also" in the English way. I said no it is "alSHo" it means above, I don't think you should teach your child the wrong way to pronounce Hungarian words. He mist have been about five years old but has the perfect opportunity now to learn another language.

Don't muck him up by pronouncing things in the wrong way, either speak English to him or learn some Hungarian. I corrected her, I could not resist, I was polite, but It is not like "also" as in "too" or "as well as". It is ALSHO if I can transliterate, it means "lower", as "felső" means "upper".

So why teach them the wrong pronunciation? It is hard enough as a foreigner to get the RIGHT pronunciation with Hungarian vowels, you don't have to start teaching them the wrong ones.

panzer25 wrote:

if we want to learn something from the second world war based on our history and not others is that we need weapons something really destructive capable killing half the humanity or something like that

Or....

Instead of such a bellicose, aggressive mentality....

Maybe considering that the European idea of "nations" (which resulted in two world wars, and tens of millions dead), and exclusive sovereignty, as laid down at the Peace of Westphalia, maybe necessary at the time, is now outdated in the 21st century. And needs to be changed.....

Just a random thought. 

klsallee wrote:

panzer25 wrote:

if we want to learn something from the second world war based on our history and not others is that we need weapons something really destructive capable killing half the humanity or something like that

Or....

Instead of such a bellicose, aggressive mentality....

Maybe considering that the European idea of "nations" (which resulted in two world wars, and tens of millions dead), and exclusive sovereignty, as laid down at the Peace of Westphalia, maybe necessary at the time, is now outdated in the 21st century. And needs to be changed.....

Just a random thought. 

The way we change it is by being nice to each other, it is a very easy thing to do, you just reach out your hand and help someone. You cannot change it all at once, but little by little, every day, you can make the world a bit better. Maybe my words seem bellicose or aggressive written but actually I am a very peaceful man.

I have three rules in my life, I don't hit, I don't lie, I don't cheat. You can have your own, but those suit me. To an extent, they overlap but they do for me. Everything else is negotiable.

The way to stop wars is just to stop fighting, it is quite easy. Orwell said "the quickest way to end a war is to lose it", which the Hungarians seem quite good at

But I go to lots of war graves and cemetaries in Hungary and pay my respects in my British way. I can do no other. But let's not have another European war, we had enough of it last century.

SimonTrew wrote:

indeed again "bon mot" won't work, in French it means a well-chosen phrase or joke, but translate that into English it just means "good word", well that won't do, will it.

It is pudding the carp before hors d'oevres- it is just impossible to translate that into Hungarian with any sense.

You first have to know that "putting the cart  before the horse" is an English expression for doing one thing before another, and then yes I know what a cart or a horse is in Hungarian, but that is not going to be the idiom, there is no poiint translating words. Idioms and proverbs tend to be hardest to do.

Yes you can translate the words but the joke won't carry- the words desszert you

fluffy2560 wrote:

panzer25 wrote:

....
Lol no the political reality was that either Hungary allies itself with  nazi Germany or got invaded by it and taken over fast it probably would been worse , if we want to learn something from the second world war based on our history and not others is that we need weapons something really destructive capable killing half the humanity or something like that

Of course we all know Horthy didn't have much choice but Hungary was then punished for backing the wrong horse and suffered during for the years of communism thereafter.  And this has fueled the misplaced nationalism we see now.

I don't think you really mean Hungary should have (nuclear) weapons (which is what you said above in bold).  If you do mean that, maybe you'd like to elaborate ....a lot.....

I'm still waiting for a 10-minute argument on the WMDs or what these proposed massively destructive weapons are.  Perhaps it's OV although he's rotting it from the inside. But more fun would be a goulash or porkolt trebuchet.  Maybe a regiment of armoured Vizslas or Pulis.

fluffy2560 wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

panzer25 wrote:

....
Lol no the political reality was that either Hungary allies itself with  nazi Germany or got invaded by it and taken over fast it probably would been worse , if we want to learn something from the second world war based on our history and not others is that we need weapons something really destructive capable killing half the humanity or something like that

Of course we all know Horthy didn't have much choice but Hungary was then punished for backing the wrong horse and suffered during for the years of communism thereafter.  And this has fueled the misplaced nationalism we see now.

I don't think you really mean Hungary should have (nuclear) weapons (which is what you said above in bold).  If you do mean that, maybe you'd like to elaborate ....a lot.....

I'm still waiting for a 10-minute argument on the WMDs or what these proposed massively destructive weapons are.  Perhaps it's OV although he's rotting it from the inside. But more fun would be a goulash or porkolt trebuchet.  Maybe a regiment of armoured Vizslas or Pulis.

Its too oftopic to discuss it here.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I'm still waiting for a 10-minute argument on the WMDs or what these proposed massively destructive weapons are.  Perhaps it's OV although he's rotting it from the inside. But more fun would be a goulash or porkolt trebuchet.  Maybe a regiment of armoured Vizslas or Pulis.

I have actually built a trebuchet, I used eight buckets of water to give the weight downwards and off it went. What you really need is a regiment of Rizlas, not Viszlas, "while there"s a Lucifer to light your fag, smile boy that's the style" as the song goes.

Now Rizlas are not perhaps not the best but just fire cigarettes at people. That will kill them, although not instantly.

panzer25 wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Of course we all know Horthy didn't have much choice but Hungary was then punished for backing the wrong horse and suffered during for the years of communism thereafter.  And this has fueled the misplaced nationalism we see now.

I don't think you really mean Hungary should have (nuclear) weapons (which is what you said above in bold).  If you do mean that, maybe you'd like to elaborate ....a lot.....

I'm still waiting for a 10-minute argument on the WMDs or what these proposed massively destructive weapons are.  Perhaps it's OV although he's rotting it from the inside. But more fun would be a goulash or porkolt trebuchet.  Maybe a regiment of armoured Vizslas or Pulis.

Its too off topic to discuss it here.

Ok, go to AAE as it's a free for all -click here.  No chance of being off topic there.

I'm looking forward to hearing the Hungarian WMD proposal.

My MIL was kept underground in the housing cellar for years during WW11 along with my 2 year old at the time SIL.
Her mother and uncle wouldn't allow her above ground out of fear.
Before the war began she was a modern young women, had a husband, child and her own business on Vaci Utca.
Now it is all posh and full of tourists but back in her youth she owned and operated  her own dairy shop.
Lost everything after the war, kept herself  safe from roving soldiers from all countries.
Her family would go out and scrounge around for food etc. when bombs weren't falling on their heads.
My SIL had blood pouring out of her eyes and ears everytime a bomb would hit near their house.
My husband witnessed a young women getting crushed by a Russian tank on Oct. 23 1956 when he was only 9 years old. Ran home for his life after seeing that, his mom did the only thing she knew, put him down in the cellar to hide and try to ride it out for however long the revolution would take.
His step-father was held by the Russians in a POW camp for over 5 years, went into hospital when he finally was released for another year to recover.
Went home only to find out his wife thought he was lost /dead in the war and had remarried and started a second family.
My husband was only 14 when he started trade school in Hungary. 10 to 12 hours a day 5 days a week with half days of work on Sat.Forced to give up a entire days pay for his,"comrades" in N, Vietnam. Doubt most Hungarians were all that happy about giving away a whole days pay for a cause most didn't care about but no one dared refused.
I understand very much why and how much the Hungarians have suffered because of other countries as well and bad mistakes by their own country.
Right or wrong I also understand why some not all but some locals resent us outsiders coming in, buying things up for ,"cheap" and then trying to change the system.
I personally try not to buck the system here and try to go along with the flow.
I am a guest in Hungary and that's it, doesn't matter that I have a few blood ties to the country, I never suffered like a local may have and never will fully understand their point of view.
I visited Hungary twice when it was communist, honestly they people in general seemed to me to be closer to each other then they are now days. They didn't have allot of things but most seemed positive and helpful to each other.
I actually felt a bit ashamed when I visited because I was so much a spoiled American .
Brought 6 suitcases of clothing with me for a 6 week holiday! Of course I was bringing a small child and he needed allot of things, one suitcase was just full of nappies since they didn't sell throw away diapers back then, Everyone was so frugal back then, nothing went to waste.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

nothing went to waste.

The English, er, slogan was "Make do and mend", and I have always done that. My mother was born in 39 and evacuated to Yorkshire from London, as about I think a million evacuee children were taken out of London  because of the German bombing,  the Blitz, they went all over the country. She stayed in Yorkshire with my Uncle and Auntie who were not related but always we referred to them that way.

He was a coal miner and had a tin plate in his head, for some fall from the coal mine. They took in, and looked after, my mother for all of World War 2, and my grandmother her mother too. Without a single word of complaint, Uncle Mark and Auntie Lydia took in my mum and her mum, into their house, and that is where they spent the War. And it would not have been a big house, but it is still a very generous thing to do.

We had to.

The British slogan was "make do and mend".

I have always done that, because of my mother, who died a couple of years ago.

You sew or darn your socks, you repair things, I pick things up that other people have thrown away, I have at the moment a nice steel frame that needs a coat of Hammerite which I have, then I put a top on it somehow it will  be a little table for outside, it won't be perfect, but will be all right. I am no Chippendale but it will do all right as a little table outside.

You make do and mend.

SimonTrew wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

nothing went to waste.

The English, er, slogan was "Make do and mend", and I have always done that. My mother was born in 39 and evacuated to Yorkshire from London, as about I think a million evacuee children were taken out of London  because of the bombing,  but the British slogan was "make do and mend".

I have always done that, because of my mother, who died a couple of years ago. You sew or darn your socks, you repair things, I pick things up that other people have thrown away, I have at the moment a nice steel frame that needs a coat of Hammerite which I have, then I put a top on it somehow it will  be a little table for outside, it won't be perfect, but will be all right. I am no Chippendale but it will do all right as a little table outside.

You make do and mend.

That is getting rather off-topic, as I tend to do unfortunately. Let's get back. My best Hungarian dictionary has "make do" as ideigenles, rögotonzött, kissegitő.

Go and buy the best dictionaries (lexikon) from the Akademia Kiado they are an investment. I don't look at them very often but whenever I do, I am surprised at the detail, and I only have the concise version that cost about 40 thousand forint each volume. It never fails me, it has everything, it does not have "make do and mend" but it has "make do", which is surprising to me.

I am a cunning linguist, so it is surprising to me in such a concise dictionary, these things to be listed. It is well worth the investment.

And that is how you learn Hungarian. You marry a Hungarian and buy a dictionary, and LEARN it. There are no shortcuts, you have to spend your time and LEARN it.

You have to practice, you have to go to the pub (sörozo) or restaurant (etterem) or shop (bolt) and just practice it.

That is the way you learn a language, you practice with other people. They are usually happy to help you out. The whole title of the topic is misconceived, there is no "language barrier". You just learn it, it is simple as that.

If you want to learn that a garden , ,is a kert, you just have to learn it. There are no shortcuts, I do not know the Hungarian for shortcut, even though I take plenty of shortcuts. I get by with about six verbs, and have done for five years, my Hungarian is appalling really because I have managed to get by on those, to do, to understand, and to know, and I get by on those, which is dreadful really, my Hungarian is dreadful.

But I know stacks of nouns (főnev) and stuff from fixing my house, I know all kinds of technical. words. I know that pamut means cotton, that an agy is a bed (I think) and so on, that you just pick these words up. A gyufa is a match, the dohanybolt is where you buy cigarettes because dohany is tobacco, obviously, tobacco shop, tobacconists.

So one way to start learning Hungarian is learn where you have to chop it. (I have no idea how to translate "chop" as in the bit of meat, I know what it is in Hungarian, labszár would probably be closest)-

There are lots of things, that are not translatable, not because of language but because of culture, that you cannot translate "London Pride" the flower, yes literally I can translate that, but I have no idea what Hungarians call it, anyways I have never seen it in Hungary.

They call daffodils "narcissus" or something like that, now I need to get some of those for next Spring, I don't know the spelling in Hungarian. I can look it up of course, but there are lots of words I have only heard and not seen written. I know  who Narcissus was, the Greek chap who looked into the water and got stunned by his own reflection, I am not that stupid, that is why we have narcissism and narcissistic and so on, I am not that stupid, I just don't know the Hungarian spelling.

When you live in a foreign country, if i can call it that as I have lived here nearly five years, every day is a delight that you are constantly bumping into things that you think "I should know that, but I don't", and you learn something new every day.

I hope you do too.