Beef, Lamb, and Foreign food in Hungary

There does seem to be an obsession with frying here but I'm not sure if it is shallow or deep frying. About a year ago I was trying to buy a gas stove as the electrics in my house are not adequate for an electric cooker. I wanted one with a grill facility as I do a lot of grilling (sausage, bacon, burgers, slices of meatloaf etc.) At that time none of the stoves I saw on sale had a grill, as the concept does not seem to exist here. I think one or two of the higher end dual fuel (gas burners with electric oven) appliances do now have a grill.
I've not looked for beef and lamb very much, as when I've seen them they seem beyond my meagre budget. It could be that most of the cows are dairy animals and go for dog food when they get too old to produce milk. I did eat beef in UK but rarely lamb as it is expensive there too. There are a lot of deer in my area of Hungary so there should be venison available too.
I agree that it is strange how selective Hungarians are about adopting foreign dishes and ingredients . You can buy pizza everywhere and McDonalds does a roaring trade but you try to find a box of puffed rice cereal! Something that strikes me is how much English language is used in shop names, advertising etc. Before I came to live here this led me to believe that English was widely spoken! How wrong I was.

I agree with you.  It might be different types of frying but that does seem to be the main method for cooking. Grilling doesn't seem to be popular.  I did bring over with me a very large stainless outdoor BBQ grill which was already converted for house gas and not LP. It is one of the typical high end American grills although it was assembled in Canada but the parts were made in China. Yes, MacDonalds and Burger King seem to thrive in the larger cities.

Some pretty broad brushstrokes in the opening post if I may say.

Why don't you find so much foreign food?
I'd like to think why would Hungarians eat foreign food when Hungarian food is so good.?
I'm English and we probably eat a lot of foreign food because English food is so bland.

But seriously it's probably more to do with the smaller population having a relatively limited disposable income, making it less economically viable to introduce a venture selling foreign food. There are historical reasons too, immigration, colonisation, or lack of.

The economic logic applies to vegetables too, in more populous economies we can get a huge variety fresh vegetables all year round because it is economically viable to transport them. Cost and logistics dictate that the choice would be more limited in Hungary, it is an overwhelmingly rural society that relies heavily on locally sourced produce.
Less veg? More meat.

And why pork, not beef?
Pigs are much cheaper and easier to raise.
And pork makes much better sausages.
But you don't find beef? You've had goulash right..?
It's pretty much the typical meat and potato dish of Hungary consumed by one and all, so there must be some beef out there somewhere, perhaps you need to get to the shops before the Hungarians buy it all

borschelrh wrote:

Can anyone explain to me why there it is so extremely difficult to find beef and especially lamb here in Hungary?

Interesting, as any local butcher I have ever been to certainly has beef. The cuts are different. Because it is a different culture. Meat from Grey Cattle is actually here a specialty you can get.

borschelrh wrote:

I see lot's of cows and sheep grazing in our area so where does the meat go? We have made special trips to Budapest in search of this and have come away empty handed.

Sheep are mostly raised for the wool, and when they are slaughtered the meet is sold direct to locals, it does not end up in the big stores or to Budapest, so you are shopping in the wrong place.

borschelrh wrote:

I also have a friend who has a friend who has a friend who raises sheep. We ended up with about 1 kg of poor quality meat.

Of course, all the good stuff went to the locals and their neighbors they grew up with. Why should they give the Americano the best stuff?

Hungary is a relationships culture. You "have to know a guy" to get some things done. This is historical, and it will not change any time soon. There was even a famous Hungarian novel from the 19th century called "Relations".

borschelrh wrote:

Semi-related why is it Hungarians don't like any foreign foods in general?

Way too generic. And not quite true.

borschelrh wrote:

There are no Chinese restaurants anywhere near us.

Well, how many Chinese families are near you in Hungary?

Seriously, Hungary does not have the diverse ethnic makeup that you find in other countries. Most ethnic food in any country is first introduced by those from that culture. That happened 100 years ago in the US when the Chinese started immigrating, so now Chinese is pretty common. But even in the US all the good Chinese restaurants I like to frequent are operated by Chinese. Same with Italian, Thai, Mexican, etc in the US.

borschelrh wrote:

we almost never see any Hungarians eating vegetables cooked as a side dish (except potatoes). The strange things is all of this is available at the markets and we are very happy with the quality of produce here but at no time with any of our Hungarian friends have we seen salads or vegetables.

They cook the veggies into the dish. Or eat them raw. Or in vinegar. You should see vinegar vegetables salads as side dishes. You may not have been offered this as many Hungarians assume foreigners will not like them. After all a disparaging name for Germans was "krauts" because of Sauerkraut (cabbage in vinegar), which is a traditional German (and Hungarian) way of preserving and serving cabbage.

Note: Before the "wall fell" many Hungarians did not have the type of refrigerators Americans started to have post WWII. So preserving and eating vinegar vegetables was, and is still, common as traditional.

borschelrh wrote:

On the other hand I see that most Hungarian diet is amazingly fatty with large amounts of meat, and strange things like deep fried cheese or deep fried mushrooms etc.

The traditional Hungarian meal (soup, vinegar salad, main dish, dessert) is typically very low in meat even if parts may be more meat oriented. A lot of meat is a new occurrence (and in restaurants mostly to cater to the German crowds at least where I am). As for high meat diets, I think the American/German diet really wins there as a "tradition" (ever been to "Home Town Buffet"?).

Yes, some Hungarian meals are high in fat. The vinegar salad mentioned above is there specifically to cut the fat in the other parts of the meal and let it digest better. And the fried cheese and mushrooms are really mostly at restaurants, which is not always "traditional" cooking. You may have experienced different, but in the country side here, I have never had a Hungarian cook me either of these at their home.

borschelrh wrote:

Try and find Cilantro here.

Because it is not needed in any Hungarian dish. It is basic economics: no demand, so no supply.

Also, try to find chervil, lovage or sorrel in many places in the US. If you want them, you often have to self grow. Same here with Cilantro (here called koriander, and you can get seeds fairly easily). A spice garden is easy to make and maintain. My wife has several.

borschelrh wrote:

but living in the heart of Europe surrounded by many different countries and cultures we should see a lot more influence here so it is interesting that Hungarians are so strict about what they will eat. There are workarounds but still I find it very interesting how stubbornly isolated the culture is to outside influences.

Being in Central Europe is not really germane. Every country in Europe has neighbors with different cuisines, and they are not commonly shared cross boarder. That is why you still have a "French Kitchen" after all.

And as Robski said, there is a significant fiscal reason for their diet. You need to consider that.

The need for a "work around" is only needed if one "wants" something different. An expat might, because that is our home culture (Thai on Monday, Steak on Tuesday, Tex-Mex on Wednesday), but that is not Hungarian culture. Simply different view of the world. Different, and neither is wrong.

borschelrh wrote:

There are workarounds but still I find it very interesting how stubbornly isolated the culture is to outside influences.

Well, that varies. I find Hungary very quickly embarrassing some external influences, and not others. If there is a fashion burp in France, it seems it is everywhere in Budapest the next week. And trying to find a McDonalds in Switzerland was far more difficult than here. Just as some examples.

Overall, I find Hungarians in the countryside no more resistant to change than, say, rural people in Kansas.

borschelrh wrote:

Grilling doesn't seem to be popular.

Because this is more a Germanic method of cooking, which was introduced in the US from German immigrants. In Hungary, when I see a fixed grill in the yard, I am almost always right when I guess a German owns the house.

I was talking to a local farmer today who gave some additional recent insight into this question:

Can anyone explain to me why there it is so extremely difficult to find beef and especially lamb here in Hungary?

He said on the hoof lamb and beef prices abroad are currently better than in Hungary, which may explain local shortages. Lamb (and goat) is being sold to Italy, and both lamb and beef are going to Turkey (he said the price Turkey is paying for beef doubled this year). Which also explains why pork is still available here (no significant market in Turkey).

So if the trend continues, everyone may need to go abroad to get high quality Hungarian lamb and beef.

Welcome to globalization....

klsallee wrote:

So if the trend continues, everyone may need to go abroad to get high quality Hungarian lamb and beef.

Welcome to globalization....

I believe that serving lamb can actually be an insult in some countries. I understand the Swiss do not like it at all.

I was in France this week and went to an Auchan hypermarket in Lille. There, as usual, I saw horse steaks in the meat section. I didn't see any lamb however. 

I also was in Nuremberg, Germany and judging by the number of kebab shops (serving the guest workers - gastarbeiters), there's plenty of call for lamb there. I suspect you could buy it easily in a Turkish supermarket there or in Austria.

I've lived in a few countries in Europe, often in rented/furnished houses and none of the houses I've rented have had grills included with the kitchen equipment. It's always been something you have to buy separately.

The variety of Hungarian food is particularly limited to the German style. In contrast, the UK had plenty of colonies and immigrants from these places brought their dishes back to the Mother country. Hence the overwhelming popularity of Indian curries and Chinese food there.

klsallee wrote:

I was talking to a local farmer today who gave some additional recent insight into this question:

He said on the hoof lamb and beef prices abroad are currently better than in Hungary, which may explain local shortages.

That's interesting and gives some substance to borschelrh's claim of finding it difficult find beef and lamb.

That is interesting and opens a whole other topic f how prices are set in Hungary.  I understand from my Hungarian friends there is no such a thing here as a Farmer's Market and that all the produce being sold in the local village markets in fact comes out of a central market in Budapest and that there is some kind of mafiosa type cartel controlling all of that. Local farmers are forbidden to sell their produce locally and everything must come out of Budapest. I am certain there are smaller markets out there which escape the notice of the mafia but they are few and far between.  The same must also be true for the meat as buying a lamb locally was done in some kind of secrecy. I do notice the prices for some things like butter and eggs are cheaper from outside of Hungary than inside.  For example at Spar last week I saw Irish butter for 249 HUF/250g but Hungarian butter was 650 HUF. A few weeks ago it was Spanish butter.  The same is true for milk and sometimes cheese so it seems really strange what is going on. However, I wasn't paying all that much attention when I bought the meat at Metro and got sticker shock at the checkout when I found one 2 kg pack of meat (from Argentina, Marha Rostylos) was over 24,000 HUF. That was a big shock to me. Metro doesn't label the meat individually so you have to be careful.

borschelrh wrote:

....For example at Spar last week I saw Irish butter for 249 HUF/250g but Hungarian butter was 650 HUF. A few weeks ago it was Spanish butter.  The same is true for milk and sometimes cheese so it seems really strange what is going on...

That's a common situation now. Mrs Fluffy's contacts include a paprika farmer who has had to stop due to the low prices from abroad. She now rents her (very large) greenhouses to individuals who grow their own fruit and veg.

I am always surprised to see in Tesco that they import table grapes (by plane) from places like India and Chile and can sell them at a reasonable price when only a few km away, there are fields and fields of grapes on the vine. Maybe Hungary does not have the quality, lower cost of production and reliability of supply.

As for Aldi, if you look at their stuff, it's nearly all imported and I know from experience that food is cheaper in Germany and Austria.

For example at Spar last week I saw Irish butter for 249 HUF/250g but Hungarian butter was 650 HUF. A few weeks ago it was Spanish butter.

No should I tell you basic marketing tricks? They bought the butter from the companies probably for the same price,they put 5% profit for the Irish one and like 100-120% for the Hungarian one, in this way the consumer mainly Hungarians will think that the foreign product is a butter like product, and probably low quality etc, so they will buy the Hungarian one.

panzer25 wrote:

..... Hungarians will think that the foreign product is a butter like product, and probably low quality etc, so they will buy the Hungarian one.

Very much a matter of national perception, personal choice and reputation.

Personally, all things being equal, I'd view Irish butter as more exotic and therefore higher quality.

But we could extend the idea?

Would you buy a car built in Germany or one built in Hungary? (me: Germany)

Or Chinese car vs one built in India? (me: neither but binary choice, I'd choose China)

Anything made in the USA or Mexico? (me: USA)

Mail order brides from say, Thailand or Ukraine? (me: Mrs Fluffy might object so better not say)

Argentine beef vs French beef? (me: dunno!)

fluffy2560 wrote:

none of the houses I've rented have had grills included with the kitchen equipment

Sure, but I did say "in the yard" not in the kitchen.

Very much a matter of national perception, personal choice and reputation.

Yes, but the Irish one is far more cheaper , and the consumer will think, that is because of the low quality, the consumer will conclude the quality from the price, it is common practice here.
This is why there are laws, for a few products(maybe only one yet) yet that shops for similar products (same TEAOR code like milk) can only put the same profit rate, but then other problems arise , so I don't know what happened with that law .They mostly used this tactic for milk, the Hungarian one was 30-40% more expensive , but the producer price was the same,nevermind the transportation cost, lol they imported it, just to use this marketing tactic.

I dunno, butter is butter and the labels say exactly what is in there. As for choices I go for the best bang for the buck regardless of where it is made.  You can't really tell any more anyway as so many parts are made somewhere else and then assembled somewhere that labor is cheaper. Audi's made in Hungary or Mercedes made in Hungary are manufactured to the exact same specs as those in Germany. That is a poor argument.  Food is different though. I make  serious attempt to only buy fruits and vegetables grown in Hungary as I am killing 2 birds with one stone - supporting the Hungarian economy and ensuring the quality is better  I can see the love and dedication the farmers exert on their products here. I really try extremely hard to not buy hothouse or hydroponic factory stuff as the quality just isn't there and it is rapidly approaching US quality.  That is picked green, stored in nitrogen then gas ripened. In the US apples are typically 5 or more years old. Meat is heavily contaminated with growth hormones, antibiotics, and estrogen. I am especially pleased to see that Hungary is actively banning GMO crops which as a PhD microbiologist and molecular biologist I can state categorically is not safe. Not only that but these crops are dangerous and are rapidly moving genetic material across different species. They were released with little to no testing as the food industry in the US has been deregulated and permitted to police themselves just like the banks, aviation, and oil industries. We see where that got us.

borschelrh wrote:

Local farmers are forbidden to sell their produce locally

Who said this to you? I ask this as I know many of the farmers who sell at the local markets, self selling is quite common here. There is even a "original producer" type of business in Hungarian law specifically for this type of reselling. My wife has an original producer certificate. We buy milk from the local farmer fresh from the cow. A local goat farmer sells milk and makes cheese.

What is more likely the issue are the "regulations" regarding reselling. That is, the butcher must have certain permits to buy and slaughter, then resell, which can be expensive and bothersome as fiscal punishment for missing a detail during an inspection is quite high. So many simply do not bother. First think "Bureaucracy" before other possibilities and you may get closer to the truth (do be aware, some here call the Government a "Mafia").

borschelrh wrote:

buying a lamb locally was done in some kind of secrecy

There is a large black market (to avoid taxes) in Hungary and slaughtering for resales takes paperwork. It is illegal to do it black without the paperwork, but probably not the "mafia" in the Sicilian sense of that term (there is a mafia here, but there is a mafia in every country). The first question to see if the purchase was done black: did you get a receipt? Even original producers have to give you an official pre-printed receipt.

Or did you go to a registered butcher, ask for lamb? Then, the butcher should tell you when he may have another lamb slaughtered (he has to get the permits -- so paperwork delay) and you agree to a price (and the more you buy, the sooner you will get your meat).

This is not really "go to the store and get a kg of meet" sort of thing. You have to buy in bulk. Or you buy the inferior meet from abroad.

borschelrh wrote:

at Spar last week I saw Irish butter for 249 HUF/250g but Hungarian butter was 650 HUF. A few weeks ago it was Spanish butter.  The same is true for milk and sometimes cheese so it seems really strange what is going on.

Not strange at all. The foreign companies have their own network of suppliers and want to squeeze out local producers. Look up the history of the Hungarian Milk and Sugar industry and how it was destroyed.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Would you buy a car built in Germany or one built in Hungary?

You have to avoid Audi and Mercedes-Benz then. Both have factories in Hungary.

Seriously, the larger companies are experienced when it comes to quality control. These days it does not matter much anymore where a car is built if it is built by a reputable company.

As for locally produced agriculture it is non-existent out here in Balatonfured or Veszprem. I have friends who are related to farmers and there is some organized system to prevent them from selling in the local markets.  I have heard though that smaller villages may have local stuff. As for the butchers and ordering meat they are unwilling or resistant probably as it is a low margin for profit, or we are foreign or both. What I find really interesting is when you hunt which is not easy to get registered to do and is a whole other discussion on how to do that, is you can't keep the meat you shoot but rather it goes into the club inventory and you can buy it back at fixed rates. I don't know about fishing as that is not my thing but I believe you get to keep what you catch so it is strange for the meat.  Apparently, it all belongs to the state and you have to pay for it. Yes, living in Hungary is way different than the US or for that matter Germany.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I am always surprised to see in Tesco that they import table grapes (by plane) from places like India and Chile and can sell them at a reasonable price when only a few km away, there are fields and fields of grapes on the vine. Maybe Hungary does not have the quality, lower cost of production and reliability of supply.

Do you mean buying table grapes now? If you see table grapes anywhere in Europe, they will certainly not come from Hungary (but I do have wine grapes still on the vine for making ice wine next week). It is summer now in Chile so they are a current source.

And, yes, the basic wage on these farms in foreign countries such as India are even below wages in Hungary. In fact the workers in these countries still live in Poverty due to such wages. But in the pursuit of only the bottom line, someone always pays somewhere, in some way:

http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=255

borschelrh wrote:

As for locally produced agriculture it is non-existent out here in Balatonfured or Veszprem. I have friends who are related to farmers and there is some organized system to prevent them from selling in the local markets.

Local markets in most areas are mostly frequented by original producers. However, there are many underlying issues here that may be giving a false impression about the situation. I have a saying: never attribute to anything else which incompetence can not first explain.

For example, many events in Hungary do not move now without a "grant" attached to them. There is a huge grant culture here. And grants are often.... I will be PC.... less then optimally applied. This included in recent years many grants that were suppose to form or enhance local farmers markets, which.... being PC again... did not work out as .... I was going to say as "planned", but since there wasn't any real planning I can actually even say that... I think you see where this is going.

borschelrh wrote:

As for the butchers and ordering meat they are unwilling or resistant probably as it is a low margin for profit, or we are foreign or both.

The paperwork can be a hindrance more than anything.

Question: How much did you order? You can not just ask for 1 kg for example. You have to adjust to local demand, and if you ask out of "season" you may have to buy the whole lamb. Heck, my parents even did that in the US, they just tossed it all into the freezer.

borschelrh wrote:

What I find really interesting is when you hunt which is not easy to get registered to do and is a whole other discussion on how to do that,

Indeed, another discussion: guns are heavily regulated in Hungary.

borschelrh wrote:

is you can't keep the meat you shoot but rather it goes into the club inventory and you can buy it back at fixed rates.

Large game for sure. That is the Hungarian system of "wildlife management". The clubs actually do a lot here to maintain the herds here. And this is how it is financed. It also allows for a more "community" environment, where you can sample game from other hunters.

borschelrh wrote:

I don't know about fishing .... but I believe you get to keep what you catch

This is correct.

Robski wrote:

That's interesting and gives some substance to borschelrh's claim of finding it difficult find beef and lamb.

As pre-packaged meat small sizes and in chain stores frequented by expats, maybe, for this and other reasons (such as such stores have their pre-set supply chain and do not buy Hungarian meat anyway).

But that does not defacto mean there is a deficit of lamb and beef in "Hungary" if you know how to get it and willing to adapt to the Hungarian way of doing it. At least not yet.

Also note: some of this is seasonal. There are milk producers, goat and beef, who have periods of the year when these farmers sell of their males. Buy in bulk.

klsallee wrote:

You have to avoid Audi and Mercedes-Benz then. Both have factories in Hungary.

Yes, I know but I was thinking about Suzuki which is considered by many (locals) to be a poor quality car.

Even if it was an Audi or MB, I would still rather have the car that was physically manufactured in Germany.

Perception, not fact, a la Irish butter.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

none of the houses I've rented have had grills included with the kitchen equipment

Sure, but I did say "in the yard" not in the kitchen.

Yes I know. Still never seen a grill inside by default.

klsallee wrote:

Large game for sure. That is the Hungarian system of "wildlife management". The clubs actually do a lot here to maintain the herds here. And this is how it is financed. It also allows for a more "community" environment, where you can sample game from other hunters.

Have a look here at the protected area management:

Hunting in Pest

While I have absolutely no interest in hunting (and don't understand those that do), I did find the price list interesting.

For example, they price up the culled animal on the size of the antlers (for deer) etc. It seems to be a very expensive business and that's how they maintain it all.