Can 2 Adults live on 2000 USD net take home a month?

I don't believe that the Soc Sec Adm. will pay disability once you leave the US. Check with them before making any plans..

Oh yes that is not an issue. USA social security disability pays you in any country. Well not countries where they have bad relationship, ie, Cuba, North Korea, some former soviet republics a few other places.

There is no problem getting Soc Sec Disability while living in Hungary. We have already checked with them. Many people on SSD live in other countries, that is not that unusual.

Hungary is an EU country, USA government pays your SSD in any EU country. Since that is our income if we could not receive it in Hungary do you think we would be planing on moving there? Just cause we are Americans does not mean stupid!

Now back to my original question. he hee.

FeliciaOni wrote:

....My father and I plan on moving to Hungary in Spring of 2015. ...

Why do you want to move to Hungary?  Any family connections or language skills for here?

No we have no family. And no we do not speak Hungarian.

When i spoke with the ambassador about moving to Hungary he said that we should  "come to the Embassy in Washington DC to apply for a D visa. D visa in not a long term visa, but enables the bearer to receive the residency permit once in Hungary"

I asked him if there was a language requirement, and he stated that it is helpful to know some Hungarian but it is not a requirement to get the residency permit. And also having no family would not be an issue for getting the D visa and residency permit.

As to why we want to live in Hungary? Well we have many reasons to tell you the truth But one of the main is there seems to be a commitment to quality in life that we do not see in USA. We did think of moving to Austria at first but feel a stronger connection to Hungary both its culture, people and it seems more open to people of different backgrounds.

Hungary, Austria, Slovenia a few others all have a residence permit for people with income that will not be working, so that also is a factor. Since we are not going to visiting we are going to move to Hungary the travel(90 day or 180 day and return to USA) visa info is not relevant.

FeliciaOni wrote:

No we have no family. And no we do not speak Hungarian.
...... visiting we are going to move to Hungary the travel(90 day or 180 day and return to USA) visa info is not relevant.

It's interesting that you want to move here. It will be a culture shock. There are many problems here but there are also some delights. If I were you, it would be better to visit for a period to see how you like it.

Don't sell your property in the USA, come here temporarily and see what you think. Just rent an apartment for a few months and explore the place and the surrounding countries and further afield. As a foreigner with no local language skills there are plenty of iways you can be ripped off.  Retain your property in the USA so you can go back if you really have to.

You might want to consider another country which is a lot easier than here.  Don't make the mistake of thinking it's cheaper here - it's generally not cheaper than other countries in Europe.  Easier countries might be the UK, Ireland, Netherlands, Malta, Cyprus - all of these speak English. Malta and Cyprus also have nice weather.  All of them are EU countries too   Healthcare here is not excellent and you'll always pay a premium for being a foreigner but then again, it's much cheaper to be insured here than the USA but you get an average service.  USD 2000 probably wouldn't be enough in these other countries but it would be survivable in HU.

I only live here because I'm married for 20 years to a Hungarian and my kids are Hungarian. I still do not speak Hungarian to any serious degre. I would probably not choose to live here if it wasn't for my family. If I had a choice and didn't want to go back to the UK (my home country),  I'd choose Germany (rich) or The Netherlands (great diversity and tolerance) or I'd go somewhere like Thailand (healthcare is very good if you have enough money).  Of the example countries, The Netherlands is by far the easiest place for foreigners to live but it's more expensive than other places.

It is surprising to me the amount of people discouraging me to go to Hungary and negativity i have received.

"It's interesting that you want to move here. It will be a culture shock." It would not be a culture shock, i have been to many other countries and honestly i am more comfortable abroad than in my home country. That is probable the least thing i have worried about.

Yes i know Hungary or anywhere else is not paradise and i am not expecting it to be perfect. That said one thing you may not be aware of is how crappy things are in the USA both in general as a country and for me even more so. I embrace the future. Many people live in other countries from the one of their birth. My father has Social Security and Veterans pensions so he still has some legal ties to USA so he will just live in Europe. Me i have nothing tiring me to USA so down the road i do plan on getting dual or total citizenship. But that is not something to even think of right now.

We do not own any property or have any ties to anyone or anything here in USA so that is not an issue anyway. And as i said we are already set on moving out of USA so even if it is not Hungary we will still be moving and not coming back. I would of moved years ago, but in the past 9yrs my father has gone threw 2 different rare cancers and other health issues. I could not leave him alone and i am not going to go to a foreign country alone either. But the good side of that is leaving the USA is something we have thought of and this is not a rash decision.

"  Easier countries might be the UK, Ireland, Netherlands, Malta, Cyprus "

Well here you are just simply wrong! That is why i stated our situation in the first post our situation. As i said we are both born in USA. UK, Ireland, Netherlands (I do not know about Cyprus cause i never thought of living there and Malta is a very expensive country to live in and i do not recall what exactly but there was something politically about them) those countries do not have a visa/residence permit for us to live there.

As i stated my father is retired and i am his caregiver and I do not work. Many countries do not have long stay visa/residence permits for people that are retired. In UK for example if you are not going to university, going to work in the UK job market, marry someone or already have family in UK. The same is true for Germany and many other EU countries. One thing we are not going to do and is risky is go to and try to live in a country that does not have a legal visa status for us to live there!

Hungary, Austria, Slovenia a few other countries further west (France, Belgium, Italy) all do have visas with out requiring the above things as long as you have income. They all have retirement or elective long stay visa/residence permits.

To go and stay for a months would cost thousands of dollars. And it would only lead to the conclusion that we want to live abroad and we would be back at same spot just of spent money that we could of used to start living.

Oh and i have been to the Netherlands, that is one place i do not want to live, i did not like even visiting there. Way way too much dirt and there is not much usable land. So what housing there is is very expensive and really not much enough to serve its people. Also it is not as tolerant as some believe. Well in some regards it is but not for the type of person i am and it was a bit too Americanized for me.

UK is some place even though though we would lose much exchange wise we would still consider to live. But like i stated they do not have a way for us to live there. IF that changed we would consider UK.

Healthcare well do not talk to me about that! I do not think there is anywhere in Europe that has healthcare as bad as USA. So i will just take my chances in that regard. You are from the UK which has good healthcare anyway. I am not going to even talk about that.

Germany well, USA and German relations are not that great right now. Also once again Germany does not have retirement visas.

So to suggest to me to do something legally i can not even do is not really helpful.

There are many things that are hard, hard would be staying here in USA. Both for the reasons why we are leaving and also mainly moving to Hungary is something we want to do. We are people of the world and have always embraced other places. Our decision to move is already made. I was just asking some logical questions as i have seen many others do.

FeliciaOni wrote:

The sites i have looked at in English were beyond expensive. I mean we live on the beach in Florida in one of the busiest and tourist heavy places on earth and the prices i saw would be expensive for here! But then i hear that Hungary is a very affordable place to live so i am a bit confused.

Most of the online sites in English will be the premium prices. General rule of thumb here is property/rent costs go up 40%-60% if they *know* you are a foreigner.

Sure that stinks. But being from out of town and thus overcharged is not a Hungarian novelty as Cary Grant found out when playing in  "Mr Blandings builds his Dream House"  (great to listen to it all, but skip to minute 10:15 for "standard top gouge price to city slickers").

FeliciaOni wrote:

I know Budapest is the biggest city in Hungary, but should we look at some of the smaller towns for better affordability?

Other places can be more affordable for big ticket items like housing (rent), but as already stated, many daily expenses here have become the same as other EU countries. Gas, food, utilities, etc.

But where you live would also depend on your needs and desires.

If the disabilities need medical attention then being in a larger city such as Budapest would be better. Hungarian health care has been beaten apart lately, and some rural hospitals have closed. It use to be 5 minutes to a hospital for me, now it is at least 30 to 60 minutes depending on the reason for going, and no local trauma center -- only by MedEvac helicopter to Pécs for our region.

But that being said, there is a person on our road who was injured in an accident (now in a wheelchair), his wife is his state paid caregiver and they do fine here (not that it matters much, but they are both Hungarian).

FeliciaOni wrote:

And we are moving from the USA so being close to lots of other USA people is not something we would need nor desire.

Understood. But, if you do want to be near a larger English speaking community of any type (even Hungarian that speak English), then also Budapest or Pécs is to consider, as many of the youth there do speak some English. Few people speak English were I live in the countryside. It can be hard to get a plumber to even fix a broken pipe due to language barriers. Just to consider, as you may consider what others see as barriers to in fact be a challenge and adventure. 

Also to consider are one of the cities on the train route between Budapest and Vienna, such as Győr. That way you have easy access to two very nice large cities. Shopping in Vienna is often cheaper than in Budapest for more expensive items, for example, often because the VAT in Hungary is so high.

FeliciaOni wrote:

So i am wanting to know if what we have now would be enough to live, and if we are able to get more then just live better.

Perhaps you can extend a bit what you see as living better? Lots of vibrant night life? Quite days and nights in a quiet village? For example, I, for one, prefer the latter.

2000 USD a month would be an average professional level income in Hungary. Non-professionals often make as little as 1/3 that a month. Your money may go further in a smaller village (for one thing, you may be able to find a larger and cheaper place to rent), but that may also be simply be because there is pretty much nothing to do in a tiny village, or to spend your money on there. But there are very good bus connections all around Hungary, so you could pretty easily travel around quite a bit if you get tired of that.

Thanks Kisallee for the reply

Ok well since { General rule of thumb here is property/rent costs go up 40%-60% if they *know* you are a foreigner. } How does one go about avoiding getting over charged and ripped off?

I understand your concern about the medical thing. Thanks for stating that. My father is a 2 time rare cancer survivor. In June of 2013 he had surgery to remove a football sized tumor from his lower spine. He has had 2 bones in his spine removed. After intense surgery and 4 months of radiation he is doing much better. He can walk and everything but uses a cane. But sitting down or standing up for long periods of time are hard. As long as he had proper medical and drs and cancer screening he will be ok.

Now that has been very difficult to achieve here part of his reason for wanting to move! That is long story i am not going to go on about. Cancer is one of those things you do not have to deal with daily but believe me when it gets you you are really sick!

{Perhaps you can extend a bit what you see as living better?} Good question! Yes something to think about. Well honestly when i said living better i meant more in the practical, logistical since.

I don't think anyone is discouraging you from moving, they're just encouraging you to make sure it's really a good fit for you before you burn your US bridges, so to speak.

I've never been to Hungary myself, but I'm reading this forum because I'm going next month for the first time. However, the posts in this thread are exactly the same advice I and many others give the people who are planning to move to Iceland sight unseen. It's one thing to visit a place as a tourist for a few days vs moving. I think all of us have experienced that "wow, this place is so fantastic I want to LIVE HERE" feeling when visiting a new city/country (Just experienced that over the weekend in Göteborg myself), but the reality of actually living somewhere is very different. Living somewhere involves the bureaucracy of government office and utility companies, the frustration of being sick and finding it difficult to explain what's wrong to doctors who don't speak your language, the loneliness of trying to fit in and build a whole new network of people for your social life, etc etc. None of this may be immediately evident when you're on that tourist high, but if you can stay somewhere for a few months you'll start to see where the possible trouble spots may be for you.

FeliciaOni wrote:

It is surprising to me the amount of people discouraging me to go to Hungary and negativity i have received.

In this forum lots of people post about coming to Hungary.  I've been here on and off for the past 20 years and I have learnt something about the place and I've worked and lived all over the world. And besides, these are just opinions from those already here. klsallee is right (as usual).  It's no Valhalla or Stovokor here.  Without language skills you could become very isolated.

The medical care is indeed quite variable especially for long term medical care - people die here through malpractice (and the medical profession always gets away with it).  There's also the issue of bribery in the medical world (yes, you have to bribe doctors here).  My wife and I had two babies born in Hungary and while the technical care was good, the hospital environment was quite bad - not modern, they'd turned down the heating in the hospital to save money and the food was atrocious (relatives need to bring in food).  It would be quite bad to be seriously ill here although you would be helped to some degree. 

I'm not up on the visa situation as I'm an EC national and I don't need a visa but I do follow the debates when I see them.  There are other places which might have retirement visas - a friend of mine moved to the Philippines that way.  What about Spain or Portugal?  Better weather.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic.  The language barrier can be overcome but the obvious thing is to start studying now (I find Hungarian very difficult and I already know French, German, Dutch already - it's nothing like other languages).   As klsallee says, the English language skills here are atrocious.  Croatia, Romania and FRY countries are pretty good for language skills (at least in the large cities and tourist areas).  I'd even say it's worth learning German as well.  That's would be the 2nd fall back language around here after English.  Russian is not used at all.

FeliciaOni wrote:

How does one go about avoiding getting over charged and ripped off?

It is tough. You have to know the local market, which is difficult if not here as many of the online offerings are the premium ones. But you may also get a better picture to visit some Hungarian property sites and run them through an online translation program (this will be far from perfect, but enough will get translated to give you an idea of prices and such). Getting a probably more expensive month by month rental to give you time to look around for a cheaper long term place is probably the realistic scenario.

The best way is to have a local who will knows the market and can negotiate in your behalf. Unless you know someone, that person will of course cost you a fee, and in a Catch 22 scenario may also rip you off.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee is right (as usual)

If only that were true when it really mattered, like at the Roulette table.....

Well thanks for the info. Yes we will have to figure out how to get a fair priced quality rental to get there. And once we are there find a better rental and if we like Hungary buy an house there in a year or so. I have been told getting a Notary to notarize the rental agreement is needed so we will do that for sure.

No we will not be moving to Spain, Portugal, or the P.I. I have lived in Southern California, Florida, Mexico some of the best weather you can get. My father lived those place and also Hawaii. Good weather is not really a factor in our choice.

We have traveled a great deal so that tourist high thing is not really something that is an issue. Normally i have found i visit a place do not like then later on see the good things and like it better. he hee. Like i really really did not like France but i am sure there are some nice things about it. I do not have the desire to find them cause i do not like it there.

Oh for me a nice life is one the is quiet and calm. I do not enjoy night clubs or things like that. I spend most of my free time reading book, making clothes, and things like that.

klsallee wrote:

....If only that were true when it really mattered, like at the Roulette table.....

Obviously my expectations are well and truly dashed now.

And I was hoping you'd let me know next week's Euromillions (winning) lottery numbers.

FeliciaOni wrote:

... I have been told getting a Notary to notarize the rental agreement is needed so we will do that for sure..... a nice life is one the is quiet and calm. I do not enjoy night clubs or things like that. ....

You'll get calm  and quiet by the bucketload in the Hungarian countryside.  Best to use a lawyer to scrutinise contracts. I doubt you'll get your deposit back (not a HUngarian thing, just something that happens - factor it in).  Re the nice weather, bear in mind it can horribly cold here sometimes with plenty of snow and temperatures as low as -20 C.  Basically December - February are dismal with January seeming to drag out forever the never ending gloom. On the other hand, some winter days (even if bitingly cold) can have brilliant sunshine and blue skies but the days are short.   Living out this way, I'd suggest anyone ensures they have two forms of heating available - usually it's gas or wood - in case there's disruption of supply.   The reason I say this is that Ukraine is a bordering country with a lot of transit gas pipes and there's a war going on there. No-one here is very worried about the war spilling out this way (perhaps 1000km away). But there's always a chance of Ukrainian confrontation with Russia which drags in Nato (of which Hungary is a member).  No-one here believes it's in Russia's interest to stir it up further.

Hello Felicia,

Since your father's sole income at the moment is in the form of a Disability Pension, obviously he has health issues and special needs. While the Ambassador told you there were no "language requirements" this is strictly in terms of residency. Have you considered what will happen in any foreign country where English is not the official language should you or your father have a medical emergency and can't communicate clearly with doctors and nurses? I can tell you that the results can be disasterous. While it's true that apart from their own national languages many citizens of European countries do speak English, but they are not in the majority. I would strongly recommend that no matter where you eventually take up residence should you leave the USA that you learn as much of the local language as you possibly can. There are numerous reasons for this:

1. Medical emergencies;
2. Day-to-day situations, conversations with shopkeepers, merchants, neighbors, co-workers, supervisors customers and clients for those who work;
3. Speaking only English in many countries you'll end up paying higher prices for everything, you're seen as a walking wallet in a lot of places;
4. Avoid isolating yourself, it's much easier to make new friends if you speak their language;
5. Legal situations, should you need to deal with authorities at any time, say in the event of a car accident, or being the victim of a crime, you'll certainly need to be able to communicate with them.

So, while there may not be "language requirements" in terms of immigrations matters, there certainly are in matters of daily living.

You will also need to find out about private medical insurance, since you will not be covered by Medicare and Medicade once you leave the USA. Private insurance is expensive and many will not cover pre-existing medical problems. This could wipe you out financially should your father require hospitalization at any time.

Really, I question the reasoning of anyone who has adequate medical coverage and pre-existing health issues even considering moving to countries where they would lose that coverage and be required to pay for private plans or simply forced to do without for financial reasons. If you're already starting out with financial worries due to a limited budget, you're only going to compound those worries when you start adding medical costs to the equation. Think about it!

Cheers,
William James Woodward, EB Experts Team.

First off many you people are making commits making some assumptions about the USA and my life in that are not true.

"Really, I question the reasoning of anyone who has adequate medical coverage and pre-existing health issues even considering moving to countries where they would lose that coverage and be required to pay for private plans or simply forced to do without for financial reasons."

Yes that is the USA. I do not have healthcare. My father has healthcare but it is hardly adequate, in fact it nearly killed him both with private insurance and government health insurance. I can not speak of how Medicare/Medicaid is cause he nor i have had that. And of the 5 different medical insurance company's i got rates from for me in Hungary it is  much much cheaper and better than anything here in USA. Same is true for my father. That is a plus not a negative.

Getting ripped off? Once again that is here in USA with my fellow Americans. So that is nothing new.

Friends well i do not really do not have any friends here anyway so i will take my chances. he hee

I was a victim of a violent crime years ago here in the USA where i speak the language and well i would doubt the Stasi would do worse. So no loss there

If things were perfect then many things you say would be a factor. But nothing anyone has said on here has really been a issue for factor or accurate for me and my father.

Part of the reason we ARE relocating out side of USA is the fact of all those things you said are already true here in USA for myself, my father and sadly many many other people.

That said the other reasons why we are moving out of USA next year and are moving to Hungary is the fact we want to do because of Hungary and also Europe has to offer. And to live a more comfortable life.

As i said before this is not something we just thought of out of the blue and we are not naive or dumb Americans. We are moving because we feel it is the right and enjoyable thing to do.

The choice to move is already there. I was just asking for some insights.

FeliciaOni wrote:

That said the other reasons why we are moving out of USA next year and are moving to Hungary is the fact we want to do because of Hungary and also Europe has to offer. And to live a more comfortable life...

You sound determined.  Just go for it!

I was born and raised in America.  I moved here to go to school and be with my Hungarian boyfriend, to whom I am now married.  Perhaps I have a closer understanding to the female American life that can give you some insight.
My experiences are in regards to the city of Budapest.
Yes, 2,000 USD a month is plenty to live in Budapest, but that's if you have constant income and can save some back for emergencies.  I highly recommend you budget carefully, get used to making everything from scratch, fruits and veggies, until you decide if the convenient packaged food fits in your budget.  There are few comforts of the US in the grocery stores ($10 for a box of poptarts? $8 for a small jar of peanut butter? $7 watery maple syrup?) Beef is more expensive than pork.  But if you are not picky, if you can be flexible and willing to change your diet, it's doable.  Personally, I've enjoyed freedom from my sugar addiction and finally learned to eat my veggies.  Coupons are almost non-existent (the small print makes it absolutely not worth the hassle) and sale signs are tricky - I worked retail in the US and I know how they work, but in the Hungarian language its even harder to tell what the catch is!

PHARMACIES control everything - from aspirin to hemorrhoid cream to cold medicine - behind the counter, so you MUST be willing to learn a little Hungarian to get even the basic medicines for your first aid kit (you can sometimes find English speaking pharmacists, but even they don't always understand your needs).  In more personal or embarrassing cases, this can get very frustrating.  Also, the medicine just doesn't work quickly.  My husband has had a cough for 3 weeks, and he says its normal for a medicine to not work on a simple cold for 3 or 4 days.  You will not get your Tylenol Cold and Sinus that knocks it out an in an hour.  You learn quickly to make up home remedies, learn the benefits of herbal teas.

The medical care IS very very bad and very rude, and sometimes closes for vacation and can't get anyone else to see you. You can wait in an emergency room for an hour before someone even talks to you, and they have no problems giving you a simple mis-diagnosis and rushing you out the door. I HIGHLY recommend First Med Centers, they are better than any care I've gotten in the US.  A premium plan for 2 people should cost 155,000 huf ($680 per person) per year. However, you may be charged more if you need specialist care more frequently than once a year. Single visits can be $65 - $200 depending on your needs.

Finding an apartment without a Hungarian-speaking friend to intercede for you can be very tricky.  I use alberlet.hu or ingatlan.hu, but the english translations are very incomplete, and the landlords don't always speak English.  The types of heating and gas can range from $30 a month to $200 depending on the system, so its important to find out what the utilities are.  Some buildings share the cost and divide it, so you will pay for your neighbor's excessive bills, unless you get a flat that has individual meters.  Common fees have a huge range as well.  I recommend finding a FURNISHED apartment, as many are, because furniture can get very pricey, and if you don't like the place and want to move, its so much easier.  Note, most apartments have 1 year contracts, so if you end up not liking it, you are stuck for a year, noisy traffic, barking dogs, mutant elevator, whatever.  Speaking of which, apartments up to 5 floors are not require to have an elevator.  The floor numbering starts at 0 (ground) so if the apartment says "First floor" it's actually what Americans call the 2nd floor.

Your flat may come with a washing machine (if you're lucky, it has a 30-minute setting, otherwise a small load takes at least an hour).  NO DRIERS.  You will line (rack) dry all your clothes.  In the winter in a damp apartment, this can take 2 or 3 days.
We've had our water heater and gas go out a few times, how you deal with home issues if you don't know Hungarian or have an advocate... I have no idea.  A friend of mine had her CEILING CAVE IN, it  took weeks to fix and SHE'S HUNGARIAN!

Where to live?  If you want quiet seclusion, the Buda Hills (districts 11, 12, 2) are beautiful, but more expensive, though it IS possible to find some small cheaper flats (by no means luxurious)  We have found, however, that the neighbors are quite rude and selfish, leave their barking dogs out all night, and do not respond well to simple requests to stop blocking your driveway with their 4 vehicles. 
Downtown is districts 5, 6, 7, 8, and partially 9, district 10 is nice and more suburban as are districts 17 and 19.

I don't know if you'd want a car, but road signs are tricky (just got a $150 ticket when my dad visited and made a simple turn that wasn't allowed - the sign was small and misplaced, but they know that, so they put a camera there to catch people doing common mistakes)  There are registration fees of course, inspection, and gas is at least 2x as the US.  But i don't recommend a car in the city, as parking is expensive and traffic sucks.  Public transportation is relatively cheap, but I believe you only get senior/disability discounts with Hungarian or European ID (I am not sure though)

The hardest part at first, even if you get through all that, is the IMMIGRATION OFFICE.  It's in the 11th district, a bit of a ride from downtown, and the waits in line can EASILY stretch to 3 hours, even if you get there first and early, you can wait an hour or more.  They will VERY often tell you that you don't have the correct forms, enough forms, enough ID, enough signatures, you have to come back later and wait in line for another 3 hours.  Of course, all these forms also cost money to obtain from various Hungarian-speaking-only agencies.

Honestly, I do not know how I would have survived in Budapest without my Hungarian husband, or the school agencies to assist.  If you are doing this all alone, I must caution you that it's NOT going to be easy.  Corruption in the government and business and individuals is very high (yes, I know the US is also corrupt, but it's pretty shocking here).  You do not have the same legal rights you have in the US.  You do not find consumer advocates, and judges can easily be swayed by the richer or more politically affluent person.  My husband and I have fought for our rights as far as we could, and we've both gotten ripped of (anywhere from 30 to $300) and he's a NATIVE.  The law (enforcement) is definitely out to serve the politicians and local mafia.

Upside: it's safe as far as violent crime goes.  Theft and pickpocketing is a problem, but you're not going to get gunned down or knifed in the street.  I do like this aspect.

Sales tax is 27%.  The basics of life are cheaper, but anything else - shoes, computers, bicycles, furniture etc, is expensive.  There are NO THRIFT STORES except for clothing, so if you want second-hand appliances, furniture, home decor, etc you need to find a buy/sell group online.  If anyone ships ANYTHING, even a gift, to you from the US, if the value is over $50 they will charge the 27% to you before you can pick it up.  Shipping anything OUT of Hungary is also expensive.  So online ordering is not always cost-efficient.


Overall, Hungary requires a LOT of patience.  Most natives don't realize how screwed they are because they've learned not to complain under communism and getting duped is the norm.  I realize now with all her problems, America is STILL free and we enjoy so much more liberty there.
I am going to miss the central European location and "cheap" travel to other wonderful cities, but I am very much anticipating moving back to the US.  Hungarian salaries are meant to survive, not to build any sort of life of one's own.  I miss my garden, I miss quietly buying personal products without gesturing to a pharmacist what the problem is, I miss going to the store to buy the most simple things (they just do not have them here)  I miss being a free-thinker and creative problem-solver without people looking at me like I'm crazy (they have not learned critical thinking.  Everything is done the way it's been done for 200 years, and if you think differently (like an American) they will laugh at you).  If you're used to being an outcast, okay, but if you're going to make a huge change, why not at least give yourself the opportunity for a better life?

FeliciaOni wrote:

First off many you people are making commits making some assumptions about the USA and my life in that are not true.

"Really, I question the reasoning of anyone who has adequate medical coverage and pre-existing health issues even considering moving to countries where they would lose that coverage and be required to pay for private plans or simply forced to do without for financial reasons."

Yes that is the USA. I do not have healthcare. My father has healthcare but it is hardly adequate, in fact it nearly killed him both with private insurance and government health insurance. I can not speak of how Medicare/Medicaid is cause he nor i have had that. And of the 5 different medical insurance company's i got rates from for me in Hungary it is  much much cheaper and better than anything here in USA. Same is true for my father. That is a plus not a negative.

Getting ripped off? Once again that is here in USA with my fellow Americans. So that is nothing new.

Friends well i do not really do not have any friends here anyway so i will take my chances. he hee

I was a victim of a violent crime years ago here in the USA where i speak the language and well i would doubt the Stasi would do worse. So no loss there

If things were perfect then many things you say would be a factor. But nothing anyone has said on here has really been a issue for factor or accurate for me and my father.

Part of the reason we ARE relocating out side of USA is the fact of all those things you said are already true here in USA for myself, my father and sadly many many other people.

That said the other reasons why we are moving out of USA next year and are moving to Hungary is the fact we want to do because of Hungary and also Europe has to offer. And to live a more comfortable life.

As i said before this is not something we just thought of out of the blue and we are not naive or dumb Americans. We are moving because we feel it is the right and enjoyable thing to do.

The choice to move is already there. I was just asking for some insights.

And that is exactly what I was giving you, my insights as someone who has been living in a non-English speaking foreign country for many years. Nobody here is criticizing you by any means. There are as many reasons to decide to expatriate as there are expats. Your reasons don't matter, what matters is your level of preparation for the move, making it a success as opposed to a failure.

Have you ever been to Hungary? Have you ever lived in any foreign country (especially a non-English speaking country) for an extended period like 6 months or more? Until you have, then you have absolutely no idea of the challenges that this poses anywhere. Expatriating is nothing like picking up and moving to a new house across town, not by a long shot. If it were there would be no such thing as culture shock, all expats would be a success at adapting to their new country instead of approximately 33% who fail to adapt and return home within the first year, much poorer but much wiser for the experience. I'd really recommend to anyone who plans to expatriate go to that country on a Tourist Visa first and spend 3 to 6 months there before they commit themselves to anything. See if it really is a fit for you.

Have you also considered the tax implications of a move to another country. The USA taxes you based on your citizenship and residency. US citizens pay US income taxes wherever they live in the world. The US government has relatively few international tax treaties, so you will need to pay income taxes in the USA every year and you may end up paying taxes in the new country as well in absence of a treaty. Double taxation is always a problem.

FATCA - Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act: This law requires foreign banks to report directly to the IRS all information on accounts held by US Citizens. You can be taxed in the USA on bank earnings. As a result of this law many banks worldwide WILL NOT even open accounts for US citizens now. Have you considered that? How will you be able to function without a bank account? How will you cash foreign checks?

You and your father will continue to pay US income taxes unless and until you RENOUNCE your US citizenship. This comes with a wopping Exit Tax, calculated as if you sold everything you owned and liquidated every asset/investment/bank account on the day before you renounce. Renouncing citizenship is ONLY an option for the extremely wealthy. It also comes at the price of losing almost every single service that your citizenship affords you, including your passport.

So yes, make your plans to expatriate; but consider them very carefully. Not everything is exactly as you may think it to be. INVESTIGATE every tiny issue about the move.

You have to take everything and put it in the balance, only if the scales are definitively tipped in favor of the move should you undertake it.  Even so remember the famous old saying by Irma Bombeck.... "The grass is always greener over the septic tank." That applies completely to expatriation. You don't want to be in a position of finding yourself in a foreign country, things are not what you imagined they would be, you've exhausted your resources to get there and establish yourself and now find that you haven't got sufficient funds to go back home, do you?

Dreams are wonderful, we should all have them and chase them when we can. But, PLANS and good plans at that are the means by which we achieve them. Planning means analysing everything GOOD & BAD and doing so in a completely honest way.

This is input, feedback, advice and NOT criticism. Insights from somebody who has actually been in the situation.

Sorry, I'm going to be blunt here... but you've made it clear that your mind is made up "the choice is made" and it really appears that you don't want to hear the  possible downside of that choice, but are quite willing to hear things that will only support the choice. So why ask for input at all, just go ahead and do it. That is if you are willing to accept the entire responsibility should the choice have been wrong from the get go. We ALL make choices in life, and I'll tell you we all make good choices and bad choices, nobody is immune from bad choices. Good luck with your choice, especially if you don't want to see both sides of the coin to begin with.

Cheers,
William James Woodward, EB Experts Team

wjwoodward wrote:

US citizens pay US income taxes wherever they live in the world. The US government has relatively few international tax treaties, so you will need to pay income taxes in the USA every year and you may end up paying taxes in the new country as well in absence of a treaty. Double taxation is always a problem.

FATCA - Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act: This law requires foreign banks to report directly to the IRS all information on accounts held by US Citizens. You can be taxed in the USA on bank earnings. As a result of this law many banks worldwide WILL NOT even open accounts for US citizens now. Have you considered that? How will you be able to function without a bank account? How will you cash foreign checks?

just to clarify this, you do have to FILE taxes every year, but you most likely will not have to PAY taxes if you are paying into the local system. I've lived abroad and earned abroad for nearly ten years now and I've never had to pay to the US government since I'm paying taxes where I live and am in countries with much higher tax rates than the US. However the filing is a pain in the ass that has to be dealt with every damn year.  This year I have to file three tax returns.

I haven't yet had a problem opening a bank account, but I do know people who have been refused in other countries due to FBAR.

A few points....

wjwoodward wrote:

FeliciaOni wrote:

Good Netiquette means not reposting the entire quote from earlier. We already read it. Only retain what is relevant to your reply points.

wjwoodward wrote:

And that is exactly what I was giving you, my insights as someone who has been living in a non-English speaking foreign country for many years.

Her question was rather specific, not really one for someone to just giving general advise.

wjwoodward wrote:

Have you ever lived in any foreign country (especially a non-English speaking country)

She wrote above she lived in Mexico. Did you read the entire thread? It is a good idea to read the entire thread before commenting. You also asked questions/made points that others did already and which she answered, which leads me to believe maybe you did not read the thread.

wjwoodward wrote:

you will need to pay income taxes in the USA

Already commented on above. But I will add this is only true of income from US sources (nexus) or foreign income that is more than the $90,000 automatic tax free Foreign Earned Income Exclusion per person if you fill out form 2555.

wjwoodward wrote:

The US government has relatively few international tax treaties

There is a US tax treaty with Hungary. This comment is not relevant to Hungary. Lets try to keep the replies, even if many replies did go a bit off topic, at least relevant to Hungary.

wjwoodward wrote:

FATCA - Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act: This law requires foreign banks to report directly to the IRS all information on accounts held by US Citizens. You can be taxed in the USA on bank earnings. As a result of this law many banks worldwide WILL NOT even open accounts for US citizens now. Have you considered that? How will you be able to function without a bank account? How will you cash foreign checks?

1) This is the Hungarian forum. US Citizens can open bank accounts here just fine. Nothing to "consider". No fear of not having a bank account (I in fact have three account one each in Dollars, Euro and Forint). What happens "world wide" because of FATCA is not necessarily relevant to this forum or this thread. Lets try to keep the answers at least relevant to Hungary.

2) Some Hungarian banks will cash foreign checks. Even US Social Security checks. There is a fee, but it can be done.

wjwoodward wrote:

NVESTIGATE every tiny issue about the move.

Well, maybe that is YOUR way to do it (type A personality?). But maybe others are more adventuresome and just want to jump into moving abroad, and they do fine also.

wjwoodward wrote:

Dreams are wonderful, we should all have them and chase them when we can. But, PLANS and good plans at that are the means by which we achieve them. Planning means analysing everything GOOD & BAD and doing so in a completely honest way.

Or just jump on a boat and have an adventure. Seriously, you have your view, take and opinion what works for you, but not everyone works, thinks, acts the same. Some people are more laid back, can roll with the punches and do perfectly well navigating one step at a time sans extensive planning. Everyone is different. That is what is so great about this game of life we are all in.

Good reply. Gave you a thumbs up.

octobop wrote:

I don't know if you'd want a car

Also add that a US Driving license becomes invalid in Hungary after a year. Before that happens, you have to convert it to a Hungarian license. More info at the US Embassy web site:

http://hungary.usembassy.gov/driving.html

octobop wrote:

Most natives don't realize how screwed they are because they've learned not to complain under communism and getting duped is the norm.

I you read "Relations" by Zsigmond Moricz (published 1932, and available translated to English) you may discover this world view, and getting duped, existed before communism.

In fact, I for one believe to really understand another culture one must read its literature.

FeliciaOni wrote:

Oh for me a nice life is one the is quiet and calm.

Maybe then a rural or semi-rural life. Below is a link to one the blogs here at expat-blog. I have read their blog, and it is a good overview of what they went through buying land in Hungary:

http://goodlifehungary.com/

Maybe contact them by email and ask if they can provide some suggestions or give a contact for a good person to help with getting a place to live in Hungary on rural rentals (or maybe later purchase*). Anyway, just a thought to help.

* Do note, there are some restrictions on Americans owning property in Hungary.

klsallee 

Thank you for clearing up and correcting a few things. And reading my post. And thanks for the links and ideas, that is helpful

Yes as you pointed out 90,000 and above a USA citizen would have to pay taxes. But jeez if someone is earning that much hell you are doing pretty good and should pay something! But we will not be making that much. That is more for business people or something.

And also which i understand most do not realize is that Social Security Disability and Veterans Service connected Disability income is not taxable. It is not taxable here in the USA and will continue to not be taxable in Hungary. Yes that is constant income. Like i put in my first post it is from disability, he will not be growing bones in his spine back.

I have lived in Mexico for 5yrs, and i lived in Germany for 4yrs. The difference in those times verses now is i always visited USA often and i also lived with the plan on moving back to the USA. The difference now is i am planning on making my home outside of the USA. What i am saying is i lived like an American that was in a different country. This was back in my early 20s. Since then i have gone threw much and really thought about this in a real way.

Thanks for the info about the bank accounts that is one thing i have been concerned about. And something we will spend much more time figuring out. Like i said right now our income is 2000 USD net, so that is why i was asking how that would be to live. But our income could go up.

Unless i got a job in Hungary and made over 90 000 i would not have to be paying taxes. I do not plan on working in Hungary and if i did whatever jobs payed that much in Hungary i doubt they would be hiring me! he hee.

FeliciaOni wrote:

Social Security Disability and Veterans Service connected Disability income is not taxable. It is not taxable here in the USA and will continue to not be taxable in Hungary.

Correct. And since that is all money in your pocket, you will have enough to live in Hungary.

FeliciaOni wrote:

i lived in Germany for 4yrs.

German is a common language in many areas of Hungary that has tourism. If you know even some German you will be fine.

Due to my very West Coast American accent, many times Hungarians do not understand my pronunciation of Hungarian. I get "Hu?" a lot here as a reply. And my tongue can not pronounce some Hungarian words. It is as if I do not know any Hungarian at all sometimes. So I just write things down and pass them a paper. Hungarians are use to tourism, or visitors that do not know Hungarian, and I can often work just fine this way as well. Even at retail stores (but at government offices I do bring a translator -- My wife). Buy a pocket English-Hungarian dictionary (or if you are technologically oriented a smartphone app) and you can get by in many cases. I once carried on a conversation with someone here looking up each word in a pocket dictionary. It was an eclectic combination of English, German and Hungarian. Quite a fun and memorable conversation, even it was a bit slow and delayed. 

octobop

Poptarts? IF that is something you are concerned with then i think you should move back to USA. I guess this points out more the reason why i do need to move.

I do not  eat that stuff in the first place. I already spend most of my food money at European, Asian and Middle Eastern markets. We cook food from scratch and eat the ways you speak already. We do not consume high fructose corn syrup and we we embrace herbal and alternative medicine already. Mainly do to having those same medical things happen here in the USA and more. (My dad's previous GP used foul language all the time. I mean the had core words. it did not bother us, although it was rather rude and annoying. That Dr now is getting in trouble with some of his current patients for doing that. That will not hurt or kill you which says much. But still not cool)

{ HIGHLY recommend First Med Centers, they are better than any care I've gotten in the US.  A premium plan for 2 people should cost 155,000 huf ($680 per person) per year. However, you may be charged more if you need specialist care more frequently than once a year. Single visits can be $65 - $200 depending on your needs.}

That is very affordable medical care. I hope those are the prices that is very reasonable.

Here in USA me a healthy non smoking non drinking no medical issues ever, (i am healthy weight 5'9 145 pounds) and no kids woman the cheapest basic plan is 400$ a month. I wanted a chest x ray and with my insurance it was going to cost me 380$. That is not a premium plan, that is the basic one.

Yes i have heard things about the Immigration Bureaucracy. That seems like a peace of work. Some people have told me they are nice and helpful, others have told me they are difficult so i have no idea. Like is said i do not expect perfection. But like whatever hassle it is i guess it is just something you have to get threw. As an expat you get this i am sure and well i am the one asking to go to their country so i expect some drama and hassle. Thankfully i think you will have not have to live in the immigration office.

I am not against hearing the bad at all, i want to to know that. But what i was saying is many of the things people have said on here have not been relevant or if they are things that are already a factor here so i would not be losing

octobop wrote:

Overall, Hungary requires a LOT of patience.  Most natives don't realize how screwed they are because they've learned not to complain under communism and getting duped is the norm.  I realize now with all her problems, America is STILL free and we enjoy so much more liberty there...

Excellent summary of experiences in HU. 

One thing about being duped is that everyone here has an extensive network of contacts of varying degrees of reliability (from great to wannabes or almost criminally negligent) who will attempt to help you in some way. It's almost a parallel world for those with no connections (e.g foreigners) being screwed the most. Those with the most connections ("the haves") usually do fine with some sort of unwritten nod and wink system I've never been able to work out. The "have-nots" are those who complain about nepotism in one way or another - usually linked to paranoia about politics, Judaism or nazis.  The difference between the haves and have-nots is highly dependent on subject matter.  I think the parallel world came about because of the totally incompetence and stupidity of the communist regime - everyone paid lip service but no-one could rely on it. You had to rely on your parallel network of contacts  for bartering - e.g. knowing someone in the phone company got your phone connect in 4 months instead of 4 years if you provided them with 4 tins of crappy Cuban pineapples. It was a kind of barter system. After 50+ years of communism and being mentally beaten up and supressed, probably the Hungarians just got the stuffing knocked out of them.  It's a shame because Hungarians outside of Hungary excel in a fair and free environment like the USA.

OH i bet! I am from San Diego, California and my father from Nebraska. People here have problems understanding what we say. I know this will be something to deal with and difficult in Hungary. Yes i did learn basic German. I was a model in Gelsenkirchen Germany. I have been back in USA  since i was 22 and have not used the German at all since then so i am really rusty. Reading i think i am better than speaking.

Oh like i guess i did not make it clear. The 2000 USD is our current take home net income. If that increases to 3, 4 or even 5 thousand a month then all the better. But it will not decease from what we have now so that is why i was asking if we could live on now money.

When we leave we will have around 10,000 USD in savings also.

I am not a predjuced person and i do not like people saying offensive things about any group of people.

As far as corruption, buddy system etc, Usa has lots of that. I am not going to say it is like Cold War Eastern Block, but it is far from the Freedom people think it is.

FeliciaOni wrote:

Oh like i guess i did not make it clear. The 2000 USD is our current take home net income. If that increases to 3, 4 or even 5 thousand a month then all the better. But it will not decease from what we have now so that is why i was asking if we could live on now money.

When we leave we will have around 10,000 USD in savings also.

Don't forget the USA still wants its pound of flesh for the IRS and it's worse now with FATCA. 

$10K will help but I think more like $30K would be survival money for a year for healthy folks.   You will almost certainly not be able to borrow money from a bank to finance a mortgage (that's a whole other story - the system is totally screwed here).

Re: the medical costs at First Med quoted previously, meds will need to paid for in full and unless you have the TAJ (health insurance) card, you or your Dad will not get the subsidised price.  Hungary does NOT allow import of personal medications by mail order (unlike some other countries).

What would we be paying to the IRS?

You do not pay IRS taxes on money in a bank account unless the money comes from a taxable source.

And as i said {And also which i understand most do not realize is that Social Security Disability and Veterans Service connected Disability income is not taxable. It is not taxable here in the USA and will continue to not be taxable in Hungary. Yes that is constant income. Like i put in my first post it is from disability, he will not be growing bones in his spine back. }

And like i said our 2 thousand or whatever is our constant income. That does not change. The 10 thousand in savings is in addition to that.  We are living off of the 10 thousand. We would live off our monthly income, the savings is just that savings.

Like i said i talked to some medical company's already and the medical from Cigna, Atena and one other was very affordable.

Yes i am sure when it comes to buying a house there are many rules and things. But we are not at the point yet. When and if we do decide to buy a home in Hungary then yes we will look into all the legal things about that. But we are going to start by living there first! But that said we would just try to buy the house in cash and not finance. We do not finance things here anyway and do want to start in Hungary.

FeliciaOni wrote:

What would we be paying to the IRS?

You do not pay IRS taxes on money in a bank account unless the money comes from a taxable source.

Interest on deposits is taxable usually (as it's income) but interest in ordinary accounts here is almost zero. Taxes on any form of income need to be checked in relation to the USA-Hungary tax treaty.   

.

FeliciaOni wrote:

Like i said i talked to some medical company's already and the medical from Cigna, Atena and one other was very affordable.

Does this include any prescription medications required (at the subsidised price)?   If it does, I'd be truly surprised. Anyone else know about this form of insurance here? (I thought private health insurance was not actually allowed - note also the Telki private hospital closed down about 1 year ago as it never made a profit in the HU health sector but the clinic in District 12 ( or is it 3?) still operates).

FeliciaOni wrote:

But we are going to start by living there first! But that said we would just try to buy the house in cash and not finance. We do not finance things here anyway and do want to start in Hungary.

Ok, well, lots of opinions here so maybe you got what you needed.  Hope your move goes smoothly.

FeliciaOni wrote:

octobop

Poptarts? IF that is something you are concerned with then i think you should move back to USA. I guess this points out more the reason why i do need to move.

I do not  eat that stuff in the first place. I already spend most of my food money at European, Asian and Middle Eastern markets. We cook food from scratch and eat the ways you speak already. We do not consume high fructose corn syrup and we we embrace herbal and alternative medicine already. Mainly do to having those same medical things happen here in the USA and more.

Good for you!  No, I don't miss US junk food much at this point.  Let me clarify that the Americans I'm used to dealing with are study abroad students who come for a few months on Mom and Dad's dollar, spend like crazy, and act like they are going to die if they can't get some macaroni and cheese.

There are plenty of organic and bio stores, but they are more expensive, so how far the money will stretch the first few months is questionable.  When you get an apartment, you usually have to pay 2 months rent deposit as well as the first month's rent.  Of course, if you have savings to buffer the start-up costs, that's obviously helpful.

Yes, the health plans at First Med are very very cheap compared to the US and the service is amazing. They just opened an office farther in the NorthWest of Budapest too, so if you really want to be out of the city for peace and quiet, you can still find yourself close to this healthcare.

Sorry, I just read the previous posts about your savings.  Savings is good!

FeliciaOni wrote:

I am not a predjuced person and i do not like people saying offensive things about any group of people.

As far as corruption, buddy system etc, Usa has lots of that. I am not going to say it is like Cold War Eastern Block, but it is far from the Freedom people think it is.

The thing that shocks me the most is how open people are with racism here.  They have no problem pointing out the gypsies and ridiculing them within earshot.  Nor do many people have qualms about inserting racist comments in everyday conversation.  I know a lot of young people who learn their English by listening to American hip hop music, and I cannot for the life of me explain to them why they probably shouldn't be repeating those words, but... c'est la vie.
Just a random thought, I noticed on all advertising it's happy skinny white people.  There is not the diversity you find in the politically correct US - where every ad has a black, white, asian, disabled,obese, and a red-headed person.  But if you look in the streets of Budapest... you really don't see much diversity.  Of course there are plenty of immigrants, but only when I visited Germany did I realize how homogeneous Hungary really is.  Some of the younger ones embrace differences, but many simply find foreign people TOO different and give you a lot of weird looks.

Again I want to repeat that corruption does indeed happen in the US, but it's much more obvious and permeating here.  Your own landlord may very well be avoiding taxes, making it difficult to get the very papers you NEED for a residence permit. 

Again I want to repeat that it's all possible, it's all doable, just requires a lot of patience.  The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence... but it still needs mowed!

Was outside for two days in the lovely Hungarian summer tending to our vineyards. Turned on the computer today to see this thread is still ongoing. So, to cap off my comment stream, and for clarity to the original question:

- 2,000 USD a month is plenty to live here for two.
- I agree with:

fluffy2560 wrote:

You sound determined.  Just go for it!

Yes thanks everyone for your replies!

I did learn that what i mean i need is a 3-4 room place. Two sleeping rooms, a living room, a bathroom, a kitchen. So hopefully that is still affordable.

I agree sometimes we just have to go for it ...life is an adventure x