Projected Monthly Budget - Budapest

First of all, what you find online for rents are the "foreigner" rates (i.e the top gouge rate for those that do not know better). Locals, or those that take the time to price compare, pay less. If you already compared at numbeo, why such a high rate estimate?

I keep monthly accounts, and 500 Euro a month grocery expense for three people is really a very high estimate. It of course depends on what you expect eat, but It can be done for much, much less.

Regarding a car: Do be aware that if you only have a US driving license you can only use it in Hungary for 1 year. Then you have to take a Hungarian driving test (not easy to pass) to drive in Hungary.

District 1 is the castle area. I am not sure anyone with a child would like to live there as no chance of a garden and parking will be very difficult.

I usually tell people to look in District II, IIA, III or XII.  These are green areas of suburbia but have Budapest transport.  Public transport in Hungary is very good relatively speaking.   It's fairly easy to go from anywhere to anywhere within 1h.

We live in Budakeszi.  This is a village that is spill over from Budapest for families who want gardens and less of a city life.  We also have Budapest transport but I have to say it's extremely quiet but as we have kids, we are perfectly OK with that as it's very safe indeed.  We have very close access to the forests - great for running/cycling/sledging and can get close to the centre of Budapest in about 20 minutes on the bus (or less in the car).  It might be worth considering towns/villages just outside the centre so long as they have  city transport.  I would not live anywhere that does not have access to public transport (i.e. Budapest blue buses).  Winter can cause problems but bus routes are always cleared first.

Our kids go to the Hungarian school (as they are bilingual).  In district II, there's SEK international school but there are other  schools nearby which are international - Greater Grace (some kind of Christian religious school) and Lauder Javne (Jewish - might do English and Hebrew).  There's something for everyone - German, French etc - all sorts of schools.  All of these are accessible on public transport. American school is in Nagykovacsi but outlandishly expensive and car needed.

fluffy2560 wrote:

District 1 is the castle area. I am not sure anyone with a child would like to live there as no chance of a garden and parking will be very difficult.

I usually tell people to look in District II, IIA, III or XII.  These are green areas of suburbia but have Budapest transport.  Public transport in Hungary is very good relatively speaking.   It's fairly easy to go from anywhere to anywhere within 1h.

We live in Budakeszi.  This is a village that is spill over from Budapest for families who want gardens and less of a city life.  We also have Budapest transport but I have to say it's extremely quiet but as we have kids, we are perfectly OK with that as it's very safe indeed.  We have very close access to the forests - great for running/cycling/sledging and can get close to the centre of Budapest in about 20 minutes on the bus (or less in the car).  It might be worth considering towns/villages just outside the centre so long as they have  city transport.  I would not live anywhere that does not have access to public transport (i.e. Budapest blue buses).  Winter can cause problems but bus routes are always cleared first.

Our kids go to the Hungarian school (as they are bilingual).  In district II, there's SEK international school but there are other  schools nearby which are international - Greater Grace (some kind of Christian religious school) and Lauder Javne (Jewish - might do English and Hebrew).  There's something for everyone - German, French etc - all sorts of schools.  All of these are accessible on public transport. American school is in Nagykovacsi but outlandishly expensive and car needed.

We are not all that concerned about a garden as long as there is a park area nearby. We have always lived centrally and just prefer to be close to activity. We prefer public transport, but a car might be needed for convenience to/from school and other weekend activities. We haven't owned cars in a lot of years, but did have them during a 2-year stint in the Middle East. We never bought though. In the Middle East it was so easy to rent them. We had them on monthly rentals with all insurance and maintenance covered and no contractual commitments. The convenience was priced into it, but it was great.

The American school looks great, but very expensive! We are looking at the British schools now. Their location seems more convenient and the costs are a bit lower.

Stakan wrote:

We have always lived centrally and just prefer to be close to activity.

District 1 is the "posh" part of Budapest. District 5, where the Parliament is located, I would call more "down town" and more central to the active daily life in Budapest in general. Even western sections of Districts 6 or 7 I find more interesting and vibrant than large parts of District 1. But that is just my humble opinion.

Stakan wrote:

but a car might be needed for convenience to/from school

Drive in Budapest traffic before making any assumptions. 

Stakan wrote:

and other weekend activities

Depends on what you want to do. Buses (better within Hungary) and trains (quality varies in Hungary from the new Bombardier trains to old pre-wall collapse carriages, to the quaint little self powered coaches on lesser used lines) go everywhere in Hungary (though schedules are limited -- many rural buses do not run after 7 PM). And there is a zero % alcohol blood limit in Hungary. If you like a glass of wine with dinner, going out by car is not possible.

Trains throughout Europe are excellent. The line from Budapest to Vienna is modern and convenient for example.

klsallee wrote:

Stakan wrote:

We have always lived centrally and just prefer to be close to activity.

District 1 is the "posh" part of Budapest. District 5, where the Parliament is located, I would call more "down town" and more central to the active daily life in Budapest in general. Even western sections of Districts 6 or 7 I find more interesting and vibrant than large parts of District 1. But that is just my humble opinion.

Stakan wrote:

but a car might be needed for convenience to/from school

Drive in Budapest traffic before making any assumptions. 

I think it'll not be comfy in District 1 with a kid.  Hilly, small streets, too urban and not green enough (maybe behind the castle a bit). District 5 is just city with no parks.

Traffic is quite bad but public transport always an alternative.  We go on the bus sometimes as the bus stop is 100m from our place. 

For kids <= 6, it's free, otherwise it costs and it can get expensive.

350 Ft I think now per ticket (3000 Ft for 10).  Family of 4 to town and back, within my area (needs two tickets as outside Budapest BKV), 16 x 350 Ft on individual tickets = 5600 Ft or circa 18 EUR.  Now that's just stupid money.  We can halve that by walking to the Budapest single ticket bus stop (about 15 minutes walk away), but still 9 EUR equivalent.

Based on 310 Ft per litre (say diesel) fuel, that's about 18 litres fuel or with the ticket lowering walk 9 litre fuel.  In our car, that's close to 160-180km of driving  depending on one's heavy foot.

With the caveats on overall per km car costs and bus lane time saving, couple the fuel costs with FREE parking at Mammut for the cinema for example, then what's the point of going on the bus?!!  If you change lines, another ticket.  Not easy.

Break even is probably 2 people.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Break even is probably 2 people.

Did you include the costs of buying/leasing the car plus insurance and auto fees and maintenance costs? 

My 67 yer old cuz and his Thai wife  aged 55 took the train from Vienna to Budapest a couple weeks ago. They bought seats in Vienna but the train co. had oversold seats.
People from Munich had sat down and didn't get up for those who bought tickets from Vienna to BP.
My cuz and his wife stood for 2/1/2 hours or more, they are super cool, Buddhists who didn't want to raise a stink.
I think there had been a mix up of some sort, I know I would object with my bad knees to standing that long in one spot knowing i had paid for a seat.

Still planning on a Balaton day this summer as soon as the weather is worth the trip.
Figure with my husband being a HU citizen with free travel we only have to pay the 5,000 for me plus the 700 to get to the train to Balaton  and back plus the entry fee to use the lake. Let's not even talk about buying food or drinks at the lake.
Figure only 7,000 for the day, seriously  how many times can the average HU worker afford to take their family to the lake on their vacation time?
Were thinking of doing a ride share with our car but no... They are now even charging for parking at around 300 forints per hour!

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Figure with my husband being a HU citizen with free travel we only have to pay the 5,000 for me plus the 700 to get to the train to Balaton  and back plus the entry fee to use the lake. Let's not even talk about buying food or drinks at the lake.
Figure only 7,000 for the day, seriously  how many times can the average HU worker afford to take their family to the lake on their vacation time?
Were thinking of doing a ride share with our car but no... They are now even charging for parking at around 300 forints per hour!

Local beach near us use to allow people to enter for free before 8 AM for a morning swim. No longer allows that since this year.

Local beach use to have half price tickets for those entering after 4 PM. No longer gives this option this year. Have to pay full price no matter when one enters now.

The degree of money eagerness is getting out of hand recently (and there is no real increase in services for the added fees). I really do not need or want to buy greasy over priced beach food either. And I have never even seen a life guard on duty at this beach, even though there is suppose to be one (especially since one is paying to go there). There are no costs places to go and swim (at least for now). A bit further away, but still accessible by bus or bike. So good enough.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Break even is probably 2 people.

Did you include the costs of buying/leasing the car plus insurance and auto fees and maintenance costs? 

I did say:

fluffy2560 wrote:

With the caveats on overall per km car costs ...

So, no I didn't add in those costs.   I could have modelled opportunity costs etc too but decided I should get on with my work as I am easily distracted.  Yes, I am working when I waffle on here.

What I meant by break even was more than 2 people means it's cheaper by car (ignoring the overall costs per km).

klsallee wrote:

......
Local beach use to have half price tickets for those entering after 4 PM. No longer gives this option this year. Have to pay full price no matter when one enters now....There are no costs places to go and swim (at least for now). A bit further away, but still accessible by bus or bike. So good enough.

Seems to have become a thing on the south side as well.  There are still free beaches but they are packed and no-one is at the paid beach.  Pretty obvious except to the local government.  Home owners in the area do not get discounts or free access either.  Cutting off ones nose....etc.

Just crazy that  the lake is now property of "the system".
I have allot of issues with lifeguards here in HU.
They do not enforce the posted rules at the pool we go to.
People jumping, kid running on slippery surfaces, people bringing floats into the pool, it is not a private pool where one would relax on a raft after all.
Children swimming in the new hot mineral waters which has both screaming kids and old people trying to sooth away their pains in the hot water. It is also posted that children under age 14 should limit their exposure to the hot waters and strong minerals, no one cares, they dive and jump all over.
My biggest issue is a couple summers ago we were at this pool when a 8 year old girl drowned, I saw her lifeless body and still hear the screams of her mother ringing in my ears.
So far it seems like not all that much as changed with the lifeguards watching what is going on.
They have divided the pool now deep water from
more shallow water but people still let their small kids into the deep water wearing floaties, they can not swim on their own.
There are 3 different large areas for children at this spa, why do they have to also overrun the adult lap lanes?
no one really enjoys a small child wearing a nappy going into the pool, that's why they have kids pools.
I am a parent, and yes my son swam starting at age 2 1/2 month old in Hawaii.
I was double sure he wasn't going to have any accidents in the pool and he did wear swimmies until he could swim the full length of the pool by himself at age 3.
I had him on a swim team before he was allowed in adult lap lanes.
I seem a prude perhaps but some rules just make things more enjoyable for everyone.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I did say:

Ah yes, I missed that. My bad.

This conversation has become very interesting, but it has drifted from my original question. Any additional inputs on actual monthly budgets, the need for a car or not, and the areas of the city we should consider living would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Stakan wrote:

, the need for a car or not, and the areas of the city we should consider living would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Need a car - no. We sold ours recently because public transport is fine. Want a car or find a car essential for you - only you can answer that as your expectations will differ from others here.

Same with where to live. Everyone will have different views on that. If you want to live down town that limits your options. Suggest just not having expectations and just rent a place for a month or two, explore and see what are fits you the best. Then rent in that location. You may not be able to fully pre-plan this until you come here.

Budget: let me out it this way, your monthly food budget alone is more than our entire monthly housekeeping costs including food, power, heating, water, misc. expenses (for 2). Hungary is not that expensive in general, but if you have expensive tastes it can be. In other words, to help us answer your budget question we would need to know a bit more about your expectations, preferences, etc.

Hope this helps.

Yes it all depends on your lifestyle.
We live super cheap but we own our flat, no rent.
Can easily live on $500. a month we do tend to spend a bit more in good weather, going out.
We do not eat out often, just like our own cooking better and hate to just sit and know we are paying 5 times more then needed for just some so-so meal.
I do not do public transportation very often, have my own issues with BKK.
I do think your projection on transportation was a bit low, a monthly city pass not $80 a person but somewhere near $50, that is not for using trains or any travel outside the city limits.
So it would be closer to $200. a month for a pass for 4 people.
Rent, again depends on what district , how large and if it is furnished or not.
I knew a women here 9 years back who was paying over $1,000 a month for a 2 bd in Buda side for a apt. Her son was in the American school, which was back then $15,000 for elementary levels and $25,000 per year for HS.
Her FIL was paying for everything, they couldn't find work here so the old man footed the bills.
So right there they were out over $2,000 a month just on rent and school costs.
The family  took issue with them being supported by the grandfather so they moved away from HU to Canada where her husband found a job.
Like anywhere else, if one overspends what they can afford they run into trouble.

If you spoke Hungarian you might get a better deal on rent.
I know rents have gone up some this past year in the city.
If you look around I think you could find a nice 2 bd flat for under $900. a  month in a good location.
The land line phones with UPC at least with our package costs us 50 forints per min. on top of the normal monthly cable fee, those can add up if ones likes to talk allot over the phone.
That is for outgoing calls, we do not have to pay extra for incoming calls.
Have to be aware of those little hidden costs that can add up quickly.
Our average heating bill in the winter is under $50. but we do not run the heat all night long.
Our flat is only a one bd too.
Most utilities  are not included in the rent. Sometimes water may be included in the house common costs but electric is pricey here if you have things running all the time.
We have a car but only really use it for big shopping trips and in the summer months. Most times it sits in the winter, just too slippery on the roads and way too crowded for short runs.
We love to walk and can get to almost anywhere within a 40 min. one way walk.
If you don't have allot of spare time then the public transportation does run often.

klsallee wrote:

Stakan wrote:

, the need for a car or not, and the areas of the city we should consider living would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Need a car - no. We sold ours recently because public transport is fine. Want a car or find a car essential for you - only you can answer that as your expectations will differ from others here.

Same with where to live. Everyone will have different views on that. If you want to live down town that limits your options. Suggest just not having expectations and just rent a place for a month or two, explore and see what are fits you the best. Then rent in that location. You may not be able to fully pre-plan this until you come here.

Budget: let me out it this way, your monthly food budget alone is more than our entire monthly housekeeping costs including food, power, heating, water, misc. expenses (for 2). Hungary is not that expensive in general, but if you have expensive tastes it can be. In other words, to help us answer your budget question we would need to know a bit more about your expectations, preferences, etc.

Hope this helps.

Thanks.

I do not think we have expensive food tastes at all. We eat a balanced diet (including meat). Our child likes some "junk" food and we allow some of it too. In general, we comparison shop. We also don't buy any "luxury" items (steaks, expensive seafood, etc.) except maybe on rare occasion. That said, we don't fret about every little item either. If we need or want it we get it. I will add that we include cleaning supplies and other non-food home goods in the grocery budget since we usually just get it all at the supermarket.

I've kept track of our expensive for a few years in two different countries so I know how much we spend at the grocery store. It has been around EUR 500 per month pretty consistently. Comparing Budapest with places we have lived would suggest that we should expect similar costs there.

If your total housekeeping cost is less than EUR 500 per month, then I either have no idea of the costs in Hungary or we live very different lifestyles. We are 3 people, which of course makes a difference, but I wouldn't expect it to make that much of a difference.

That reinforces the question of what should I expect in terms of monthly utility costs, internet service, etc.?

You are likely very right about experiencing the city before deciding where to rent long term. However, that would be hard for us. We are complete germophobes and clean freaks. Once we settle somewhere we hate to move. A short term stay and then another relocation would be very hard for us.

We have always lived very central. We've had just about everything we need for daily life within walking distance and everything else within a short public transportation ride. However, we've also had parks nearby even though we've been in central locations.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I do think your projection on transportation was a bit low, a monthly city pass not $80 a person but somewhere near $50, that is not for using trains or any travel outside the city limits.
So it would be closer to $200. a month for a pass for 4 people.
Rent, again depends on what district , how large and if it is furnished or not.
I knew a women here 9 years back who was paying over $1,000 a month for a 2 bd in Buda side for a apt. Her son was in the American school, which was back then $15,000 for elementary levels and $25,000 per year for HS.
Her FIL was paying for everything, they couldn't find work here so the old man footed the bills.
So right there they were out over $2,000 a month just on rent and school costs.
The family  took issue with them being supported by the grandfather so they moved away from HU to Canada where her husband found a job.
Like anywhere else, if one overspends what they can afford they run into trouble.

I had read somewhere that a monthly pass for public transport was 10,000 Ft per adult and 5,000 Ft for a child. That is about EUR 80 per month for all three. Maybe I read wrong info though?

Regarding a flat, we'd want a 2-bedroom (i.e. at least 3-room flat). If the furnishing was in good condition and CLEAN, then we would want furnished. Otherwise we'd have to consider unfurnished and getting our own stuff. How easy would it be to sell home furnishings should we end up moving on again in a couple of years?

As for the district, that remains unclear.

The school would be one of the international ones and I know that is a big expense.

To be honest, the only reason my Hungarian husband and I live in Hungary at all is because it is cheap, overall.
We are also thinking of selling out and moving back to the US soon, for one thing, I will be collecting my own SS monthly later this year and we can then afford to live in the US still without need to work. Done nearly 11 years of owning our flat and it might be time to experience something else.
We do not live "low" in Hungary of course as we have aged and collected so many things, we do not need to shop just for the sake of buying something new to suit our fancy.
I usually buy a few new items when I am home in the states every year to 18 months.
We do whatever we like here in HU when it suits us, we have wine and treats to eat if we want them, never feel deprived of anything, of course we are small eaters as well and enjoy eating local Hungarian style foods.
If you will be sending your child to a western style school, I imagine your interaction with local Hungarians will be slim.
There are two different worlds here, one for locals and one for those who live apart and do not socialize much with Hungarians.
You will find it will cost more to live in the "western" version of Hungary. You will find prices for going out the same or even more then in the US or even the UK.
Many ex-pats tend to live in a bubble and do not really live in Hungary, more like their fantasy world of what Hungary is sold by the media.
No judgements, if you can afford nearly $50,000 a year to live on, why pick Hungary  at all I wonder.
There are so many other places with better weather to move to.

Stakan wrote:

I will add that we include cleaning supplies and other non-food home goods in the grocery budget since we usually just get it all at the supermarket.

Ah. That is important to know.

Stakan wrote:

I've kept track of our expensive for a few years in two different countries so I know how much we spend at the grocery store. It has been around EUR 500 per month pretty consistently. Comparing Budapest with places we have lived would suggest that we should expect similar costs there.

If your total housekeeping cost is less than EUR 500 per month, then I either have no idea of the costs in Hungary or we live very different lifestyles. We are 3 people, which of course makes a difference, but I wouldn't expect it to make that much of a difference.

Have you heard about the Big Mac Index? It is a way of comparing price parity between countries:

http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index/

I found this fairly accurate, current food costs here for me are about 30% less than it use to be for me in the USA, and about half the costs from Switzerland.

I looked at your "expat path". And I see you were in Russia. Which I do admit I found odd you still had the same expenses as the US using this index. In theory, your expenses should have been cheaper. But of course less expenses would depend on where you shopped, and if you availed yourself of local purchasing outlets, or if there were grossly higher prices in Moscow than in Russia in general.

In Hungary, supermarkets for food, might or might not -- one must price compare -- be the most expensive option.

We do not shop much as supermarkets except at outlets (Lidl or Aldi) for canned goods mostly. We use the local bakery for bread, the local butcher for meat, the local cake store for desserts, the local vegetable store for vegetables, etc. Not only is that one of joys of living in Europe, being able to drop down to the local butcher for that night's chops, but often better quality for the price (caveat: you have to know your local store owners -- some are more honest than others). And often cheaper -- but again one must comparison shop to get the best price/quality -- since they are local products, and not packaged and shipped in from other parts of Europe or the world (I once saw California peppers in Tesco here which is ridiculous when Hungary is famous for its peppers).

So, yes, your expenses may be due to life style patterns which different from mine (which is why getting estimates of budgets from others here may be difficult unless those lifestyles match).

Also be aware that pork, chicken and eggs get a VAT rate of 5% here, but beef and fish get the higher rate of 27%. So what you buy to eat also matters here based on VAT alone. My wife never buys beef, and only eats fish when we eat out.

Stakan wrote:

what should I expect in terms of monthly utility costs, internet service, etc.?

Monthly, we pay 6,000 HUF for electricity, and about 3,000 HUF for water.

In the city you can usually buy bundles for your phone, TV and land line Internet. The price will depend on your wished Internet speed. Wireless Internet and cell phones so enabled will be extra costs.

Your heating costs will depend on the type of heating used in the apartment (central gas or oil boiler, metered gas, or local electrical). Our yearly monthly budget for heating is 20,000 HUF a month (averaged over 12 months -- of course we are not heating now, that is just the monthly average). Heating 225 cubic meters.

Stakan wrote:

We are complete germophobes and clean freaks.

I hate to say this, but then you probably should not shop at local butchers, vegetable stores, bakeries (or buy bread in supermarkets here that are open), etc. I have seen people cough on their hands then test the bread for freshness in supermarkets, and have seen small store owners drop bread on the ground and put it back on the shelf. Yes, not allowed. But local reality.

Phobias are very real. Inappropriate for an Internet commenter to claim otherwise. But as a biologist I can tell you the more we learn about our microbial world, the more we are learning we actually need them to be healthy. In other words, being too clean may be a bad thing. For example: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/04/he … dren.html.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

There are two different worlds here, one for locals and one for those who live apart and do not socialize much with Hungarians.
You will find it will cost more to live in the "western" version of Hungary. You will find prices for going out the same or even more then in the US or even the UK.
Many ex-pats tend to live in a bubble and do not really live in Hungary

A lot of truth there.

Of course, nothing wrong with living in the Expat bubble. It is just another (more expensive) way to be here.

Only becomes an issue with those believing they are not living in the bubble (in part or whole), when in fact they are. 

{I hate to say this, but then you probably should not shop at local butchers, vegetable stores, bakeries (or buy bread in supermarkets here that are open), }

This is very very very true! Being here i have learned that the standords USA and Western people are used too are not here. The meat many times is not fresh and ove very poor quality especially pork and chicken. And yes things like doughnuts just sit open uncovered i find that very unclean.

I recall back in like feb we went to one of the malls to get ice cream. The place looked very clean, i asked to taste the blueberry ok i taste it good no issues, then i say oh i want to try the melon flavor. The woman says ok give my your spoon, i assume it was for her to toss that one out and give me a new spoon to try the 2nd flavor-nope, she takes my first spoon dips it right in the melon flavor!

FeliciaOni wrote:

The woman says ok give my your spoon, i assume it was for her to toss that one out and give me a new spoon to try the 2nd flavor-nope, she takes my first spoon dips it right in the melon flavor!

I am not shocked or surprised by this. Lived in Hungary too long I guess. 

FeliciaOni wrote:

The meat many times is not fresh

Side note: May not be relevant, and I of course know you know good quality meat when you see it, but as a general note that should be considered when comparing, most of the meat you see in the USA has been chemically treated to make it appear fresher than it really is.   

Stakan wrote:

...We have always lived very central. We've had just about everything we need for daily life within walking distance and everything else within a short public transportation ride. However, we've also had parks nearby even though we've been in central locations.

I would not overestimate the niceness of being in the central area, especially District I. It's a touristy place and of course, as for Budapest, it's a city, not a large one, but quite big. It's relatively noisy and dirty in some places. Lugging your groceries to an apartment up a hill in District I without a car is likely to get old fast. 

There are supermarkets in the downtown area but all the very large ones are outside the centre.  When Hungary was communist, they built dormitory areas outside of the centre. Then, when communism fell, they built shopping malls next to them.  So actually, down town, there are shops but not quite in the sense of a main street one would find in the USA.   Shopping malls are like main street but inside a building.

One thing I find odd about Budapest is that there is almost no central street - OK, I know Vaci Street but it's not like a main street one would find in a UK city or in say, a German city.  I'm still amazed there are not really any department stores in Hungary.  I can only think the large supermarkets like Auchan fulfil that niche.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Lugging your groceries to an apartment up a hill in District I without a car is likely to get old fast.

FYI Tesco, CBA and at least one more store will deliver groceries to your door. I've used Tesco's delivery service for a while, I was very satisfied. They charge about 300-1000HUF for it (I usually added another 500-1000HUF as a tip), considering the time and effort you can save, it's very cheap! The vegetables, meats and fruits they brought me were very fresh.

OP: you might find the prices at https://bevasarlas.tesco.hu/groceries/? … 1469020581 useful.

Internet can cost you roughtly between 2700-10000huf per month. Ironically you can get the best and cheapest service (from a company called Digi) where population density is the highest (and thus quality of life the worst)*.  Phone again is the cheapest from Digi (about 15 forints /min)...

*looks like this

atomheart wrote:

.....FYI Tesco, CBA and at least one more store will deliver groceries to your door. I've used Tesco's delivery service for a while, I was very satisfied.....

Yes, I think after 20 years in HU, and being at the first opening of Tesco in HU, I know that one can have things delivered. Sometimes you want to actually go and browse around and see what they've got.  In particular Aldi is one to go and see what they have.

fluffy2560 wrote:

In particular Aldi is one to go and see what they have.

Agreed. Especially the central isles in Aldi and Lidl, which are great places to impulse buy because the products there are not fully advertised overrun products bought bulk and are very cheap. Just happened into Aldi one day last year and left with a great winter cycling jacket, skull cap and cycling tights at a very cheap price. Kept me warm and comfy all winter when out on the bike.

klsallee wrote:

Have you heard about the Big Mac Index? It is a way of comparing price parity between countries:
http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index/
I found this fairly accurate, current food costs here for me are about 30% less than it use to be for me in the USA, and about half the costs from Switzerland.

Yes, I've heard of it before. But I've never really used it. According to this, Hungary is considerably more expensive than Russia. That isn't a comforting idea given I know just how expensive Russia is.

klsallee wrote:

I looked at your expat path. And I see you were in Russia. Which I do admit I found odd you still had the same expenses as the US using this index. In theory, your expenses should have been cheaper. But of course less expenses would depend on where you shopped, and if you availed yourself of local purchasing outlets, or if there were grossly higher prices in Moscow than in Russia in general.

I am still in Russia. Russia is hard to understand. Until the last couple of years Moscow was regularly one of the most expensive cities in the world. While the prices have dropped dramatically in Dollar or Euro terms, the rubles prices have gone up significantly. Having rubles, our expenses have actually gone up though they have gone down in foreign currency terms. Also, to be fair, my expenses in the US were 13 years ago. Food prices have risen dramatically in the US over the last few years so it is not a fair comparison with my historic data. What is a more fair comparison is Russia and Bahrain. I have lived in both in more recent times. In Bahrain we averaged about $550 per month on grocery store expenses. According to Numbeo we should then expect about $415 per month in Budapest. We currently spend about $400 per month in Moscow. According to Numbeo we should then expect about $460 in Budapest. Based on these data points I would think it is somewhat fair to estimate about $450 (or EUR 400) in Budapest. So maybe my original estimate of EUR 500 is a bit high? Exchange rate differences surely add an element of uncertainty to this though and maybe it is safe to stick with my EUR 500 estimate for planning purposes? Then again - first hand knowledge is far better than internet statistics. 

klsallee wrote:

Monthly, we pay 6,000 HUF for electricity, and about 3,000 HUF for water.

In the city you can usually buy bundles for your phone, TV and land line Internet. The price will depend on your wished Internet speed. Wireless Internet and cell phones so enabled will be extra costs.

Your heating costs will depend on the type of heating used in the apartment (central gas or oil boiler, metered gas, or local electrical). Our yearly monthly budget for heating is 20,000 HUF a month (averaged over 12 months -- of course we are not heating now, that is just the monthly average). Heating 225 cubic meters.

While I put zero in my estiamte in this thread and asked if they would be included in rent, in my own calculations I had included 50,000 Ft per month as an estimate for utilities (including a landline phone). It seems like that might be a safe guess too.

klsallee wrote:

I hate to say this, but then you probably should not shop at local butchers, vegetable stores, bakeries (or buy bread in supermarkets here that are open), etc. I have seen people cough on their hands then test the bread for freshness in supermarkets, and have seen small store owners drop bread on the ground and put it back on the shelf. Yes, not allowed. But local reality.

Phobias are very real. Inappropriate for an Internet commenter to claim otherwise. But as a biologist I can tell you the more we learn about our microbial world, the more we are learning we actually need them to be healthy. In other words, being too clean may be a bad thing.

Yes, phobias are real. I wish I didn't have them, but I do. This makes local markets hard, but not impossible. It also makes find the right flat more difficult!

atomheart wrote:

Internet can cost you roughtly between 2700-10000huf per month. Ironically you can get the best and cheapest service (from a company called Digi) where population density is the highest (and thus quality of life the worst)*.  Phone again is the cheapest from Digi (about 15 forints /min)...

*looks like this

I checked the link you provided. I know concrete panel buildings all too well! I happen to own a flat in one of them in Moscow and have lived in it for a total of 11 years. It is terrible! It is from the Soviet era, but I understand the modern ones aren't all the much better.

Stakan wrote:

While the prices have dropped dramatically in Dollar or Euro terms, the rubles prices have gone up significantly. Having rubles, our expenses have actually gone up though they have gone down in foreign currency terms.

Ah. Since you quoted in Euro in your post, I assumed you earned in Euro (or Dollars). If you earn in local currency.... well that may indeed be different. You will be victims of currency fluctuations in local buying power in HUF but powerless to adjust for the constant costs in EUR of foreign products.

For example, prices for many "western" goods in Budapest I can get cheaper in Vienna. For some reasons (not all inclusive):

1) Higher Hungarian VAT
2) More transportation costs to get them to Budapest
3) Transportation companies are limited, so reduced competition so higher costs

My wife and I keep local expenses low by following many of the suggestions here:

http://www.wisebread.com/how-to-grocery … 100-a-week

Particularly #2, #3 and #5. There is a lot of variance in between store prices here. Shopping around is essential. And buying fresh local produce will last longer (less waste) than something trucked in from Spain.

Stakan wrote:

I checked the link you provided. I know concrete panel buildings all too well! I happen to own a flat in one of them in Moscow and have lived in it for a total of 11 years. It is terrible! It is from the Soviet era, but I understand the modern ones aren't all the much better.

I find the concrete communist era construction as more simply "historical". In a way, kind of a tourist attraction here. And IMHO, if the building keeps you reasonably warm and dry, good enough. The world is not perfect.

And I do not find some modern architecture much better either. But each to their own tastes of course.

klsallee wrote:

..... And IMHO, if the building keeps you reasonably warm and dry, good enough. The world is not perfect.

And I do not find some modern architecture much better either. But each to their own tastes of course.

Panel buildings are a serious problem within the housing stock.   They've been gradually building new ones but I don't see any panel buildings being blown up and removed.

They were thrown up with the intention of a limited lifespan and still there 50 years later. However, the joints between , metal work and insulation are all inadequate.  If you look at the price of panel apartments vs tegla (brick) apartments, there's a very significant difference.

Some of them even have asbestos - very high cost for disposal.  In HU, I believe they prefer to leave the asbestos in situ rather than disturb  it but a consideration if the apartment owner has to pay for removal.  Heating costs significantly higher in panel vs brick. 

The current building regulations (EU directive if I remember correctly) is 12cm of insulation on the outside of the house.  I expect it's just a few cm in a panel.

Stakan wrote:

....Yes, I've heard of it before. But I've never really used it. According to this, Hungary is considerably more expensive than Russia. That isn't a comforting idea given I know just how expensive Russia is.

Actually prices in HU are about the same as anywhere else so long as it's basic things like washing powder.  It's entirely Euro-normal price wise on average.

The problem in HU comes with the economy - it's small and the taxes oppressive. Anyone living near the border with Austria can get an 8% discount merely by physically crossing over and buying there with judicious purchasing.  Slovakia the same - Ikea/Tesco etc.  But it's a trade off.   The scale of the economy in  HU is just too small to give anyone incentive to import 100,000 widgets.  100K widgets in say Germany or UK are easily sold as 65-80 million people in the market. Maybe they can sell 500 widgets in HU only.  You get the point.

One thing I have noticed recently is a sudden drop in some delivery prices to HU. It used to be "Western Europe" in shipping costs arbitarily stopped at the Austrian border and there was a sudden leap in pricing for delivery of say Amazon products into Eastern Europe.  It's still relatively expensive but it's dropped to about 1/3 price now.  It's feasible to have stuff shipped from Germany (note: environmental surcharge) or even the UK.  We have even had Lego shipped from Czech Republic as it was considerably cheaper than getting it from UK or Germany and definitely cheaper than in HU.   

The recent mentally deficient anticompetitive change in VAT rules (not seller rates cross border but delivery location rates) had become a serious problem but strangely enough I have seen this levelling out recently. I think the suppliers are normalising prices somewhat to become Euro-normal.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

..... And IMHO, if the building keeps you reasonably warm and dry, good enough. The world is not perfect.

And I do not find some modern architecture much better either. But each to their own tastes of course.

Panel buildings are a serious problem within the housing stock.   They've been gradually building new ones but I don't see any panel buildings being blown up and removed.

They were thrown up with the intention of a limited lifespan and still there 50 years later. However, the joints between , metal work and insulation are all inadequate.  If you look at the price of panel apartments vs tegla (brick) apartments, there's a very significant difference.

Some of them even have asbestos - very high cost for disposal.  In HU, I believe they prefer to leave the asbestos in situ rather than disturb  it but a consideration if the apartment owner has to pay for removal.  Heating costs significantly higher in panel vs brick. 

The current building regulations (EU directive if I remember correctly) is 12cm of insulation on the outside of the house.  I expect it's just a few cm in a panel.

Our panel building in Moscow was constructed in 1968. It had a 30-year design life. 48 years later it is still in use. On any given day of the year at least one flat is undergoing renovation. A few years ago they did capital repairs to the whole building too. They changed the heating system, plumbing, and added a layer of insulation externally, which the covered with cheap tile.  All the work was done by immigrant labour that admitted it was their first time ever doing such work. The quality was appalling. Years later we are still fixing the "repairs" that were done. The capital repairs and the individual flat renovations have all added significant load that was never part of the design. Combine that with the crumbling panels and inadequate framework and I fear the building will just collapse one day. Plus, the noise never stops. Never. Construction noise, television, stereo, yelling, dog barking, etc. is constant. All is heard. Furthermore, cigarette smoke filters through all the cracks in the panel seams. There is no stopping it. I never want to live in another panel building again!

fluffy2560 wrote:

Stakan wrote:

....Yes, I've heard of it before. But I've never really used it. According to this, Hungary is considerably more expensive than Russia. That isn't a comforting idea given I know just how expensive Russia is.

Actually prices in HU are about the same as anywhere else so long as it's basic things like washing powder.  It's entirely Euro-normal price wise on average.

The problem in HU comes with the economy - it's small and the taxes oppressive. Anyone living near the border with Austria can get an 8% discount merely by physically crossing over and buying there with judicious purchasing.  Slovakia the same - Ikea/Tesco etc.  But it's a trade off.   The scale of the economy in  HU is just too small to give anyone incentive to import 100,000 widgets.  100K widgets in say Germany or UK are easily sold as 65-80 million people in the market. Maybe they can sell 500 widgets in HU only.  You get the point.

One thing I have noticed recently is a sudden drop in some delivery prices to HU. It used to be "Western Europe" in shipping costs arbitarily stopped at the Austrian border and there was a sudden leap in pricing for delivery of say Amazon products into Eastern Europe.  It's still relatively expensive but it's dropped to about 1/3 price now.  It's feasible to have stuff shipped from Germany (note: environmental surcharge) or even the UK.  We have even had Lego shipped from Czech Republic as it was considerably cheaper than getting it from UK or Germany and definitely cheaper than in HU.   

The recent mentally deficient anticompetitive change in VAT rules (not seller rates cross border but delivery location rates) had become a serious problem but strangely enough I have seen this levelling out recently. I think the suppliers are normalising prices somewhat to become Euro-normal.

So should I take from this that when people keep telling me that Hungary is a very affordable place to live compared to the rest of Europe they are incorrect? From my research it seems many aspects of life are about as expensive as many other cities in Europe.