Viet Kieu adapting to the new environment

- Get out of the comfort zone as often as you can! try to understand Viet! Catch it& grab it and prove yourself that You are still Viet.
- My colleagues/staffs are very helpful and truely friendly. Get in with them at any corners of daily stories! (tám-- as much as you can lol) ( nhậu: good idea to connect with people around you, lol)
- The first 2-3 months: go around/around/around by foot where you are living to see how many paths can lead to your house/flat. ( very good idea to escape the traffic)
-- Still, I feel I sometimes lost my mind in this Saigon. I do angry/ become mad/or even get bored of where I am belonging to..So, DOnt worry mate! All takes time to get through!

Good luck!

btw, you speak Thai, dont you?

As soon as I read your post two things jumped out of my head immediately.

  Try not to think it's a requirement for all Viet-Kieu to wear the tightest pants possible, 5 in high heel shoes and have a hundred pounds of jewelry hanging off your neck, arms and fingers. You got it, just don't show it off..

  Don't put ANYTHING in your relatives name, not your Mother, brother, sister or anybody else you think you can trust right now. Believe me your thought process will be changing very quickly on that subject. If you have already made that mistake you really only have a few choices. If it's not worth much kiss it goodbye. If it's valuable property don't bother trying to play lets make a deal with them. Just start the court proceedings to attempt to get it back.

I can't wait to see Howie's reply.

Budman1 and stevenguyen

Thanks for  your suggestions. They surely are helpful, even though it would be an ugly sight for an old, fat and middle-aged guy like me to put on tightest pants possible, 5 in high heel shoes and have a hundred pounds of jewelry hanging off . Joking aside, I get your point.

If anything else, I have been blamed for conduct 'unbecoming a Viet Kieu', things like insisting on walking the 2 km from downtown in the middle of the day to get some exercise or eating food from pavement vendors.

stevenguyen: พูดภาษาไทยได้ครับ

Look forward to others' comments too.

Hey Anatta,

Welcome back. 

Just be yourself, man.  Don't reach too much!  Viet Kieu is just a label; you breath and you shit just like everyone else.  Don't place any significance on it.  Live and work the way you do best.  You are no child, dude!  Treat people the same way that you yourself want to be treated.  Eventually, things will fall into place, and people will come around. 

People live and work different because you have yet to know them.  Things look chaotic only because you have yet to discover their orders and/or patterns.  Practices appear corrupt simply because you have yet to see their effectiveness and efficiency.  See the big picture, don't just look at a particular corner or a couple of spots.

There is nothing wrong with eating lunch on the sidewalk here.  It might be illegal in other parts of the world.  But here, it is perfectly fine, for the time being.  Why think about elsewhere and fail to enjoy that while it lasts?

Horror stories and bad experiences only come from those who had taken the wrong approach or failed to see and appreciate things for what they actually were.  There are plenty of people on here who are having a time of their lives in Vietnam.  Some don't even speak the language and are still learning about the culture.  Imagine...

Again, welcome back.  I wish you success and joy.

Regards,
Howie

Hello Budman,

You are a funny man, aren't you?

Thanks for the tips on the American ribs and Buds.  I will head down there maybe next week.  But, what about BBQ sauces, A1 and tabassco sauce, do they have them there too?  Or do you know if they have these anywhere else in Vietnam? 

I bought myself those when I went to Singapore.  But, airport security didn't allow me to take them onboard the aircraft.  So, I have been trying to make my own sauces. 

Not doing very good though...  Not much of a cook myself.

Howie

Thanks for the post. I believe I am open minded and proactive. I hope that things will fall into places after awhile as you mentioned.

A tip in return: Annam gourmet market has Tabasco with 5 variants: garlic, green, standard... Don't know about A1 and BBQ sauces, but would not be surprised if they have them too. If not, you can always ask them to add to their stocks, if they see there's a demand for them.

Also another tip: why need to travel to Singapore? Have you tried Bangkok? You find all things American here in either local supermarkets (Tesco or Central which are everywhere) or gourmet (the huge supermarket  in Siam Paragon, THE shopping center for all tourists)
siamparagon.co.th
gourmetmarketthailand.com

I passed by Annam Gourmet Market before but never went inside. I'll try to check it out next time.

@Anatta, have you come across Pepto Bismol anywhere in Saigon?

Phi Long
Have not had stomach problems (knock on wood) so have not paid attention, but see it everywhere in pharmacies in Bangkok. If I see it in HCMC, I'll let you know, but surely, there must be some local variants, just as effective :- As you see, I am not a med expert.

@Anatta, I was wondering why Singapore also. Then I got to thinking:

@Howie, NEX?

Anatta,

Don't mention it.  I am just glad that you are willing to come back; and I am confident that you will find your ways here just fine.  After all, you have already found your ways in Thailand, or wherever it is that you are coming back from.  There is no reason for you to struggle here.

Look at it this way:  Sure, Vietnam is one of the more under-developed countries in the world; and the people here are among some the poorest people on the planet.  But, at least, you are doing your parts in helping them improve their lots.  Unlike those silly Viet Kieus that only complain.  Agree?

I went to Singapore a little over a month ago for business, to visit a friend and to check out the very first country that I saw outside of Vietnam (Yup, I was among the group that fled Vietnam and went to Singapore in the early '80).  It was an amazing trip.  I came back admiring the Singaporeans even more than when I first saw them as a child, some 30 years ago.

For Thailand, as a former boat-refugee, I witnessed and later learned lots about Thai fishermen and their less-than-pleasant treatments of Vietnamese refugees.  I fully understand that the Thai government harbored many of us during the beginning of that exodus as well.  But, I just have too much on my plate right now, I have not been able to straighten out that little knot in my life yet.  And, until then, I will not visit Thailand and/or spend any money on Thais' products.

On the lighter side of things, where exactly is this Annam Gourmet Market?  Vietnamese foods have been wonderful.  But, I am in that stage where I am beginning to miss the foods that I grew up eating.

I really appreciate your help.

Regards,
Howie

Howie
You find Annam Stores here
annam-gourmet.com/our_stores

I understand a lot of Vietnamese have extreme hate toward everything Thai because of the atrocities done by the pirates, being a boat people myself.

My experience with the Thais I know and Thailand in general, however, has been extremely positive, so are the impressions of all the Vietnamese I know who have spent some time in Thailand.

It would be unfair for me to blame them on the past crimes their compatriots have done, which they had no part of and condemn strongly against. This reminds me of the Chinese mother who swore off her daughter who fell in love with a Japanese boy, because of her suffering from the Japanese crimes done in WWII in China.

Anyway, thanks for the comments. I appreciate it. I hope I would be able to adapt to Vietnam after a while.

Anatta,

Thanks for the reminder about Thailand.  I absolutely agree with you about the general good wills of the people there.  I also know that allowing a few bad apples to ruin the whole bucket is poor logic on my part; and I will have to get that straighten out soon.

It is just that I have so much to do right here and right now.  Do you recall the phrase, "The more you learn, the less you seem to know."?  That is what I am going through right now with Vietnam.  Things are just beginning to take shape for me here; and people are slowly coming out from their cocoon places with me now.  I have gotten to take it all in first. 

Thailand, Cuba, North Korea and the Poles are the only places I have not been to in this world.  Thailand, you already know; I can't get visas to Cuba and North Korea; and I don't know what to do in the Poles...  Buy and sell ice creams, perhaps?  Kiddings aside, I would love to be able to trim this list down, or better yet, wipe it clean before I am down and out, but just can't at the moment.

Thanks for the reminder, though.  Also, thanks so much for the tips about Annam.  I will definitely go there the next time I go to Saigon.

Regards,
Howie

Hey fellas,

I finally made it back to Metro today, for a good afternoon of groceries shopping.  But, I only got some ribs, BBQ sauce tobassco sauce and a bottle of Jack Daniels.  No A1, they were out.  I also saw some American topsirloins there, but they were too big for me and my refrigerator.  Maybe, when all of you come to Can Tho and party with me, then I will get that...

But, that Metro joint did it to me again today.  The first time I ever went there, they told me go back out to the partking area to check my ballcap in.  The second time, I was in and out, only bought a package of Australian beef.  But this time, just as I was thinking about Costco back home, while waiting at the checkout line, the cashier informed me that they had no bag.  Nada!  All they had were a hugh handbags, for 5000 VNDs, if I didn't want to carry my groceries by hands.  How do you like that?

I think I have gotten to give management a visit.  They are going over-the-top with these policies. 

I can't wait to hit that Annam store the next time I go to HCMC.  I would me really fun if Annam has a no-shorts or flip-flops policy...

Howie

Talking about no flipflop policy. I was visiting a tennis court the other day. I had my (non-marking) sandals, but no tennis shoes. I had just begun to hit a couple of balls over the net just for fun, then the guard came over and said it is not allowed to wear sandals on the court. The reason is that the sandals would wear down the surface of the tennis court (a hard court no less).

Talking about wearing out, I remember visiting a couple of Vietnamese homes (not sure where, in Vietnam or abroad) where the sofas were tightly wrapped with plastic because the owners did not want to wear down the sofas with usage, but I digress!!.

Hey Anatta,

"Sandals would wear down the surface of the tennis court." Now, that is funny!!!  It is a classic example of Vietnamese policy making, rule enacting.  Can't really fault them for trying...

Now, I have seen quite a few of those plastic-wrapped sofas during my days among Vietnameses (here and back in southern California).  I guess sandals wearing down tennis court surface would be an extension of that upkeeping policy.

Hi Anatta,

Being Viet-Kieu is hard in VN. Discrimination is everywhere.

Antoine
Having lived 30 years abroad, I am used to being discriminated against, both explicit and overt. The kind of overt discrimination you experience here sucks, especially when it happens on your motherland!!.

I keep saying to myself doing the same strategy that has served me well:
1. keep looking, there will be someone out there really looking for substance who would be glad to hire you. It may take a damn long time to find that employer.
2. When you are inside the door, keep delivering real substance much more than expected while get only same reward (or less).
3. If it does not work, repeat step 1 all over again.

Anatta,

Thank you for the advice, How are handling the new environment?
How long will you be working in VN?

A.N

Antoine
I am learning as I go. There surely are many things to learn here.
Keep your guard down, you are done.
How long: I don't know. Arrived not too long time ago, so don't know how things will work out. Am warned by a long-time Viet Kieu that most do not last more than 2-4 years, if not much shorter. I am afraid my tenure would be on the shortest end. We'll see.

Anatta,

Why so pessimistic, man?  What ever happenned to that great American optimism?  I understand that coming here and jumping right in to work, particularly for a Vietnamese company, is kind of rough.  But, look around the city a little, find a place that you like.  Then, mingle, build yourself a capable network.  Good things will follow.

Good luck,
Howie

Howie
Thanks for the encouraging words.
Certainly need to do what you said. I am just under no illusion that I am anyway smarter to the countless Viet Kieus who have their high hopes dashed after having spent some time here, thus my realistic expectation. We'll see

@Anatta here's a link you might be interested in:

ngocentre.org.vn


With your speaking, reading and writing abilities coupled with the fact that your already in Vietnam and they won't have to pay relocation allowances will be a big plus. The contacts you'll meet will last for a life time. 2 -4 years and somebody pulled the plug. Heck dude in Vietnam time that's only a few months. It really sounds like they came back for the wrong reasons. I'd start drinking beer at night with some people that have a positive outlook on life, not those that cry in their beer, wring their hand saying everything is terrible.  Just M2CW

Budman

I am aware of that site and was quoting it in this forum a few days ago. However, I am not looking for a new job though at the moment.
Thanks anway

Good day guys,

Thanks to you Budman, I made myself a serious Philly's cheesesteak lunch earlier, with the stuffs I bought from Metro.  The only thing I missed was the bun.  But, it was quite good with Vietnamese bread, nonetheless. 

I really can't wait to check out that Annam place to see what is in stored there.  If it is like what you said, Anatta, I won't be going back home anytime soon. 

You guys are the best.

Anatta,

The guys who crashed and burned here were the type that came in way high.  They looked down on everyone and everything, as opposed to appreciating them for what they are; they took the love and admiration as entitlements, not as priviledges; last but not least, they depended heavily on money, not leadership or inter-personal skills.  Then, to cap it all off, when their hopes were handed back to them, they cried foul.

I have seen quite a few of those in my days here.  I usually stay away from them.  Can't really afford to be seen in such lights here, where who you know determines how far you will go.

Howie
Just as a curiosity, what were they doing (or hoping to do: real estate investment/speculation, set up own shops, work for local/foreign companies,...?) and why did they fail (bad timing, wrong strategy, interpersonal skills as you mentioned earlier)? You said they depended heavily on money, not leadership or inter-personal skills. Care to explain a bit further?

Thanks

Anatta... Anatta,

How about all of the above? 

The reasons that I stayed away from the specifics were, first of all, I never liked drelling on the past, especially that of other people's ; second, success here often required actions that would be borderline-legal or -ethical in other places, yet normal here.  It was why you always hear about failures and not successes within the Vietnamese communities abroad. 

With that said, let me give you these:

1)  To get into government, just to be a street cop, a Vietnamese and his/her family must have steered clear of all associations with the former South Vietnamese regime and the Viet Kieus (that's us-descendents of that regime) for at least 3 generations.

2)  To become a "big shot" here, one must have been or known well someone who had been in government.  The bigger one became, the more influential and direct that association must have been.  To last, even a little street vendor must have had some form of an association, be it direct or indirect, with the ward police in the area of business.   

3)  To be a "real" Viet Kieu, one must have come from a western country, been among the group that fled Vietnam in the late 70s to mid 80s and had close ties to the old regime.

(Do you see the stark contrasts between us and the power brokers here?  The distrusts?  The differences in social values, in practices?  That is not to mention the hatres, in some cases.)
 
Munch on these for now Anatta.  I am going to have to come back to this later.

Howie

Just read the following article, so I quote it below with the link since it is related to what we discussed.


english.vietnamnet.vn/en/society/11751/many-young-people--refuse--to-denounce-corruption

On August 8, the Germany-based Transparency International and the Center for Community Support Development Studies, under the Vietnam Union of Science and Technology Associations, announced the results of their survey of integrity among Vietnamese youth.

The young responders said they are aware of the significance of integrity and uprightness but they are still ready to act against these values for their own benefits, such as being admitted to a high-quality school or getting a job at a thriving company. 
Among these older respondents, 43 percent said they would do the same.

41 percent of young respondents said that accusations of corruption wouldn't matter.

Most of the young people with the highest educational levels feel pessimistic about the efficiency of denunciation, while most of those with the lowest educational background say denunciation is not in their affairs.

A large part of the young respondents said honesty usually results in disadvantage and that an honest person is often seen as an idiot.

“We can see that education on combating and preventing corruption is unsuccessful in developing a generation of youth who are ready and equipped with sufficient knowledge to fight corruption,” said managing director Nguyen Thi Kieu Vien of the TI's office in Vietnam.

Young people are not at fault when they hold such views, said Dr. Dang Canh Khanh, former director of the Youth Research Institute. Khanh said what should be responsible is social mechanisms that encourage dishonesty.

Prof. Nguyen Minh Thuyet, former vice chair of the National Assembly's Committee for Culture, Education, Youth and Children, says that the survey is interesting and close to the truth. He also says that this is a big issue of society.

“The survey shows that many young people did not denounce corruption because they see it is ineffective but without denunciation, many big corruption cases will not be exposed. Actually, fighting corruption is still ineffective and corruptors are often in high position,” says Prof. Thuyet.

Anatta,

"Social mechanisms that encourage dishonesty," please tell me it is just a typo.  You can't be this contaminated, that fast, can you?

I did quite a bit of research on this topic back in college; and this is what I came up with:  If you are going to throw a chair at a run-away car, all you are going to get is one less chair to throw around with.  Now, if you are going to place another car ahead of it, you will get yourself 2 mangled wrecks and lots of bus passes.  Realistically, all that you can do is run as far down hill as you can and hope that you will be able to recover the car there in one piece, after it had lost its head of steam.  Afterward, you can let the people involved know about it so they can start making cars with better brakes or stop building roads so high upon the hills. 

Did you get it:  Poor Breaks + High Roads = lots of Run-away Cars?

Howie
Unfortunately, no typo there I am afraid.

Not sure I get the chair/car/breaks analogy but it is sad in any society to see the young generation has given up on their idealism and just accept (even acquire) whatever bad behavior that is prevalent out there.

This is what I am worried concerning the future of the country (and as I read, also a major concern currently of the government: corruption), although I am not smart enough to have a solution about it.


Note to myself: do my part to encourage the sense of integrity, honesty and trustworthiness to the youngsters I come into contact with.

Anatta,

To answer your question,i got some experience to death with viet kieu would like to share:
I would also be interested to get feedback from anyone who has dealt with the Viet Kieu: what mistakes you see they made? What should they have done to make integration/transition easier from themselves?

-Dont ever show you're richer than the local(even you do),dont ever complain the vietnamese "weird "like this,like that (once you live in your mother country ,you should adapt and try to learn the culture ,quite different from where you come from,i guess but it's good to learn)
-You can make friends but better not in the night club.(they will need something more from you than friendship).

-Be friendly with your neighboor (because you will never known what will happen in your house,the neighboor will be happy to help you even a little thing).

-Once you have some date with vietnamese girls,to be honest to your self,be friendly even things are not going well after your relationship,friends can still remaning,not like just walk away without saying anything and acting  like "dating just for fun"because vietnamese girls ,they're very emotional,some can be easily to get the wrong idea of suicide their life,lol,they're stupid,too if they do like that,too but it way of how they act...if you dont want to feel guilty so please dont do (this was an experience from a friend of mine)
...i'll share with you more if i meet some more experience to death with viet kieus!
Have a good time returing to live in Vietnam.

Hi Emily,

What is this "death" thing with the Viet Kieus?  Why such a strong word?  Why polluted materials when you want to live in Australia, a melting pot itself?

The people who carry themselves in the lights that you mentioned are LOOSERS, anywhere that you go.  They come in all shapes, sizes and colors.  Others shun them for, if not anything else, the unpleasantries of being annoyed.  Typically, they represent a small part of a group or society because, if more, that group or society would have ceased to exist.

You can't tell me that Vietnamese don't project themselves to be more than what they actually are.  You can't tell me that the young people here don't go clubing, or clubing itself is bad.  You can't stand to tell me that Vietnameses don't fight with their neighbors.  Last but not least, you can't tell me that Vietnamese don't treat their exes with ignorance or neglect.

Finally, even the loosers have their own purposes in life.  They serve as a deterrence to those who like to live beyond their means, take what they have for granted or fall in love for less than content and character.

So, don't generalize or promote this poor habit.  The world is getting smaller and smaller by the day.  Look for brightness and beauty in people, there are lots to be seen and embraced. 

Regards,
Howie

Emilyng
Thanks for your reply. Just some further comments and questions.

-Dont ever show you're richer than the local(even you do)

--> Right, a lot of VK are dying to show that they have money (real substance or not). Truth to be told, the real rich locals here are way richer than what most VKs can ever dream to be. How they get that money is another matter. I see the obnoxious display of wealth everywhere I go and I don't think those who show it off are VK . Make me feel that showing off is a Vietnamese passion (VK or not)!!.

-dont ever complain the vietnamese "weird "like this,like that (once you live in your mother country ,you should adapt and try to learn the culture ,quite different from where you come from,i guess but it's good to learn)

--> good advice. I need to stop myself doing it even though it is very hard to accept bad habits/manners that have nothing to do with the fine Vietnamese culture (corruption, impolite people, not keeping promises/agreements,..).

-You can make friends but better not in the night club.(they will need something more from you than friendship).

Thankfully, I don't need this advice. As opposed to the typical stereotype of club hopping VK, I don't go to night clubs . Scare the hell out of me reading about how some of the girls operate there to get VKs to give them expensive gifts.

Concerning your experience about heart broken girls dating VKs, it is quite sad to hear.

Again, welcome any comments from anyone.

Howie
I guess what Emily was trying to say is
- She knows some Vietnamese girl who tried to commit suicide when things did not work out between her and her VK boyfriend, so her advice is to be aware of some of the emotionally volatile girls.
- Be nice to your neighbors, ex-girlfriends,...
- Be aware of people trying to take advantage of you (especially at night club).

While I agree that the Vietnamese are not always nice with neighbors, girlfriends and what nots, the burdens are more on the VKs because
- the prejudgment/stereotype of how VKs "normally" behave.
- the extra goodwill VKs need to build to be able to function.

Howie,
"Why polluted materials when you want to live in Australia, a melting pot itself?"
you curious about to live in Aus (because im planning for my MBA course in Aus so i want to get to know more about the country).


and then,all of your other question are well answered by Anatta.
Anatta,thank you for understanding..there WAS some experience just to share not for fighting!

Regards

Emilyng

You are welcome and thank you for your original advices. An friendly advice in return: If you want to do an MBA in Australia, you need to do much better on your English.

In an MBA class (from good schools), the professors expect you to participate a lot in discussion of the cases in class. Students are fighting each other to get their points heard. You will also need to write succinctly on difficult topics. Seeing your current level of proficiency, I would judge it is far from being adequate. Try to do a TOEFL test asap and see where you are.

Anatta,

It is good to see you back on here again.  How is Vietnam treating you?  How is work, man?  Are you getting the hang of it?

I have been busy going into the suburbs of Can Tho.  That is why the questions on the 3G thing.

Anyways, I am just fed up with hearing about Viet Kieu this and Viet Kieu that.  Heck, in my book, most of those guys are not yet Viet Kieus.  They still face serious problems with social intergration in their adopted countries.  The same goes with their adopted languages, few could speak coherently.  Then, to come back here on high horses and nitpick this and nitpick that...  That is way beyond me.

Howie

Thanks for asking, buddy.

Life is not smooth sailing for the time being. Again, a lot of mental adjustments and patience, which I can manage on good days, but really wear you down on bad days.

It is just a lot of things you take for granted elsewhere can not be taken for granted here, things like if people sign a contract, it does not mean anything. They'll negate the next day if it does not fit them longer. Relying on their words: well, good luck. You can't just assume anything and it is just a starter.

I agree with you on the definition of VK. Anyone who has been away for a few years is, by definition, a VK, whether it is doing a labor stint in Siberia or growing in OC since 1975. Even growing up in OC, there are people who become highly paid, successful specialists and people who toil at the numerous Vietnamese restaurants there hardly speaking any English, let alone having any skills.

Coming back in Vietnam, all are trying their best to appear to be the sophisticated, home coming kings !!!.

As I mentioned earlier, their wealth (real or not) is tiny compared to the wealth the rich people here have (although like the nouveau riche everywhere, the locals show it off in their own vulgar and comical ways)