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Applying to get a Residence Permit as a family

Hello everyone,
I would appreciate your feedback on the following question:
If I apply for a residence permit with my wife, do we have , each , to post 5,000 USD in the bank?
What is the status of our children under 18, (or is legal age in Paraguay 21 ?) Are the children automatically covered in the residency permit once the parents get it?

Thanks in advance for any reply.  :thanks:

Hi Riro98,

This website : https://paraguay.usembassy.gov/citizen_ … dency.html might help you in your search.

Good luck :)

Priscilla

Hello Priscilla,
Thank you for your reply.
We are from Belgium. Europe. But I imagine you require the same Police record from us as well.
Best regards,
Ronnie

Ronnie, here is up to date list with all information you need regarding your children  (use google translate) http://www.migraciones.gov.py/index.php … ermanente.

You and your wife will have to deposit around 4200 EUR each at a current exchange rate.  Actually if you will do it at BNF bank (easiest option) they will accept just Guaranis and you will have to deposit 24.554.600 Gs each, plus pay around 50.000 Gs. fee. If you will have EUR on hands do not convert to Gs at BNF, do it at M&D Cambios http://www.mydcambios.com.py (you get will much better exchange rate).

A987, Hello ,
Thank you for your reply. I tried the first link in your posting and it did not work.
I read somewhere that if you can show marriage certificate then a couple does not have to deposit twice the usual sum for an adult, but only once.
Anyhow, knowing how to navigate   through the various offices will be challenge. We still have a bit of time till July 2017 and I intend to learn more  and more about  Paraguay, as well as learn Spanish as much as I can. I hope to be able to  speak basic Spanish while I am there.

Try this http://www.migraciones.gov.py/index.php … permanente

If it does not work just got to Migaraciones page www.migraciones.gov.py and choose Tramites > Radicaciones > Radicacion Permanente

Or try this http://www.migraciones.gov.py/applicati … anente.pdf

We did all "navigation" without any help in 5-6 days including weekend and just with very basic Spanish. It is really easy, but you need to be prepared, know exactly what you need and have all documents from your country of origin with Apostille translated to English. I will write detailed step by step, but I'm not married and have no kids, so some info you need will be missing (especially about kids, dealing with marriage certificate is just the same as with birth certificate). I doubt regarding one deposit for a family, from my perspective each adult is getting residency as person. Drop email with this question to Migraciones to double check (google translate will help you).

Hello A987
Thank you again for your reply. It will be great when you have a few free minutes to write down the procedures you followed, even if it is a basic plan  it is better than nothing. I plan to stay in Asuncion for up to 10 days to get all these papers sorted out (hopefully) and then go a bit around the country. We only have 25 days this time and then need to go back home to work ( & school for children), but we hope to start building our connection to the place, so we can come back later.
Once you get your ID permit, how long after that did you apply for the permanent ID? I think they give you 6 months, no, ? and then you must show up in person, right?

First you apply for permanent residency and then you get it by Migraciones (your status is changed to permanent resident), you must apply for ID (cedula de identitad civil) at Policia Nacional, Departamento de Identificaciones in 180 days. If you won't do this, your permanent resident status will be cancelled and you will have to apply again. You need 2 visits in person. I will do step by step once out of airports.

First you must do you homework. Get you birth certificates, marriage certificates in Belgium. Check how you can get and how long it takes to get criminal record certificate in Belgium, so you know time then to request one before your trip (1-2 month old should be fine). Check how you can obtain apostille for all your documents at Legalisation Division of the Federal Public Service Foreign Affairs http://diplomatie.belgium.be/en/service … uments/faq

As far as I know you have 3 official languages in Belgium. If possible get all docs in German. From my perspective it will be much easier (and probably cheaper) to get translations from German to Spanish in Paraguay (it must be done by sworn translator). We translated all our docs to English and then in Paraguay to Spanish. Translations were the second most expensive part of the process, first place goes to Migraciones fees (approx. 220 eur).

Regarding solvency if you hold University degree you can check Profesionales option. Basically you need your University Diploma with apostille and Declaración Jurada. This declaration is similar to Declaración Jurada de Cumplimiento del Art. 23 (step 10 in Migraciones list). Just keep in mind cash is the king in Paraguay, so from my perspective cash deposit is preferable and easiest way to go.

A987,
You are a star !
Thanks so much for all this. May I ask you please, are you still waiting to apply for the Cedula, or you have passed that stage too?
I guess you don't know if my wife and children will have to show up in  person as well at the end of the 180 days to apply for the Cedula? or will it be enough if I come?

I will probably get back to you  (if you don't  mind, as I go through all this process).
We bought our flight tickets, so dates are set for July 2017.

I am reading the BRADT Tourist Guide of Paraguay written by Margaret Hebblethwaite. She starts the guide with a lot of quite scary info on possible illnesses one can get in Paraguay and suggests vaccinations should be taken before arrival in the country. Did you take any vaccination before arriving in Paraguay? Are mosquitos a big issue in Asuncion. I can understand that perhaps in the countryside.

She also speaks a lot of the violence and crime in the cities, That really makes me worried !  I am coming with 2   young children and will do what I can within my budget to stay in  the best , safest areas.
Please share whatever you can in these respects when you have time. I remain thankful for what you have done already.  Best regards.
(I notice you are from Poland. The wife of a dear friend of mine (who himself  is Mexican ) is from Poland. I know them for over 10 years. Also one of the best friends of my son is a son of a Polish woman married to a Belgian man, and they live here in Belgium now.)

We just submitted all documents to Migraciones for permanent residency. As far as I know for both permanent residency and ID applications you (and your wife) must be present. There is no way to overcome this. Regarding the kids, looking at requirements list I think they should be present as well. How old are they? If they are younger than 14, less documents would be needed. For permanent residency application you would need to get Interpol certificate and to get one you would need to give your fingerprints (ink and paper) at Interpol office, plus Migraciones takes your digital photo. The same applies for ID (cedula) at Departamento de Identificaciones, but as far as know they take your digital fingerprints.

I guess if you would go to Molenbeek or similar place in Europe, you could be as easily robed or stabbed as anywhere else. Would you find any info about this in any tourist guide? I felt absolutely safe in Asuncion during the daytime, even in the evenings was fine, plus we stayed far away from the center (+30 mins by bus). We used only public buses aka colectivos (no taxis) with general precaution as we do in any public transport. We did recommended set of travel vaccination, but if you do not plan to travel extensively, just Yellow Fever is a must. During the daytime there is no issue with mosquitos in Asuncion, but depending where you will stay it could be in the evenings. We have spent just very little time outside after sunset. Cold beer, bed and internet was the best way to relax after "running" around all day in the heat or rain (or both). So if you stay in the center of Asuncion, you should not worry about mosquitos or crime during the daytime. Just be sensible.

p.s. Trusting guide book by author of Finding God in All Things, a lady in her seventies, is really the best way to get scared. Pardon my french, but my mother is a bit younger ;)

Hello Again  A987,
Well, it is good you say your felt safe in Asuncion and you are quite right about areas in Belgium that are very unsafe. I fully agree, areas that could potentially be as or more dangerous than  what one can find in Paraguay. I actually deliberately avoid visiting the big cities in Belgium. I live in the countryside, in the Ardennes, in the mountainous region of Belgium. It's  cold here (too cold for me !), but super quiet and safe, There are not a lot of people around, relatively speaking, and that is the way I like it. One of the things that attract me about Paraguay is that it might be possible/affordable to find good farm land and enjoy most of the time warmer weather than there + tax burden will be lighter and the country looks full of potential in every direction in a positive sense.
Coming with us to Paraguay we have one child under 14 and the other just above that.
I am reading the Paraguay Guide now, I intend to read it twice. It is probably the first Tourist Guide that I really read in my life. I always get them but never read them, but this time I begin early and intend to read the whole thing.
I know a Dutch guy who resides in Paraguay and he is coming back home for a visit soon. I will get a chance to see him and hope to learn more about the country. He has been there for more than 3 years. He is into farming and is Vegan. I am also heading in this direction. Not quite sure how far I want to take that though. We get older everyday and what we can do today, might be much harder tomorrow or next year. One must stay optimistic.
Are you back in Poland now?
Could you share please where you stayed in Asuncion. We have not yet booked a place. I also can't find street address of the office of Migrationes in Asuncion. Where did you get maps for the city? In tourist office?

Again, I appreciate you candidly sharing with me your experience. Best regards.

Too cold is much better, than too hot. You can turn heating on, put on some good fleece and etc, but you can't escape heat and humidity. Air conditioning may help, but I hate it then on street you have +35 and in a bus +20. During the day you'll have +10 such drastic changes of temperature and at the end running nose. Keep in mind your body does not used to such extremes and good if you can adapt quickly. But what if you don't? I can not get asleep if temperature above 25 or sleep very very badly. Running air conditioning all night is the only solution but it has many many downsides.

Haven't you thought to postpone your plans for a few more years, so your kids finish school in Belgium? How do you think they will integrate at such age into rural environment, different culture, overcome language barrier?  It is very sensitive age.

Good you know Dutch guy, who is Paraguay resident and who owns property. You will need his help and then you meet you can ask him straight away. You would need to obtain Vida y Residencia certificate from local Police Comisaria (point 8). This is a proof you live in this place. To obtain this you'll need to do the following steps:

1. Go to Police Comisaria in the area and ask for a Formulario para Vida y Residencia (or ask your friend to do this). Fill out the form (l can upload this form later). You need yourself, your friend (landlord) and one neighbor testifying.
2. Ask your friend for a rental contract (Contrato de Alquiler) signed by him (landlord), make a copy.
3. Get recent electricity or water bills with the address and name of landlord (Facturas de servicios públicos: ande, copaco y essap), make a copy.
4. Get a copy of witness (neighbor's) cedula and ask for: a) estado civil, c) profesion, d) domicilliado, f) telefono
5. Get a copy of landlord cedula and: a) estado civil, c) profesion, d) domicilliado (the same address as yours), f) telefono
5. Make a certified copy of your INTERPOL certificate (you’ll need to get this first).
6. Make a certified copy of your passport main page with your entry stamp (you will have do certified copies of all your documents at a first stage).
7. Bring the form signed by all and all documents to Police Comisaria for that address.
8. Next day (officially 24 hours turn around), come around the time they tell you to pick up certificate. This certificate is free.

We stayed via Airbnb. For all navigation in Asuncion (or anywhere else) on foot we use MAPS.ME on phone/tablet. You can put bookmarks with needed address/objects and I will check if I can "pass" you my bookmarks with all government offices you'll need (http://maps.me/en/home)

For any car navigation we use OsmAnd on tablet (phone as a backup). It works very good (just minor bugs with one way streets) and no major problems during our recent 5k km road trip with many km of dirt roads in Argentina or other road trips all around the world (http://osmand.net).

Both are free to download and use from Google Pay. Forget any paper map in Paraguay, you will not find any street names/numbers on houses, just very few in the center of Asuncion, so GPS location is essential to navigate.

Here is Migraciones office location: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Migra … 57.6309507

A987,
Again you excel  yourself. Many thanks for sharing all that info. Much appreciated.
We were not planning to settle down right away. The issue of the education of our children is really one of the main 'obstacles'  for moving. Yes, ideally we would wait for them to finish high school and my wife will reach retirement age and we can move, but the question is if I survive till then !!!
I have been living in Belgium over for  25 years (in Northern Europe 34 years in all) and I still have not got used to the weather. I grew up in Tel-Aviv where I would spend several months, when I was teenager, on the beach, bang on the beach. My body craves heat.
I feel best with lots of sun around.Of course 35+ is difficult on anybody but my body is very different than yours  and of that of anyone born in relatively cold climate. I thought that after so many years I will cope well, but no. I am not here to cry to you, just explaining something to you that you yourself can't understand because your body is programmed completely differently. I can't sleep if there is only 20 degrees in the room, I drop fast asleep with temperatures over 23-25. That's how it is , there is really nothing I can do.
Our trip to Paraguay is really first trip, to see the place. I am a bit apprehensive about the need to go back second time to apply for the Cedula, and then later on one must visit once every 3 years to keep it up. It could be costly when you factor all costs  x 4 .  I weigh the pros and cons of taking this bold move of the Migrationes now, if we can't keep up the procedure till I retire there we could run the risk of losing it all.
My friend I wish you the best.
I will keep in touch with you and drop a posting from time to time.
Feel free to share any thoughts about Paraguay, I am open minded person.

Regarding vaccination. We did:

1) Yellow Fever (a must, if you plan any time out of Asuncion, STAMARIL)
2) Hepatitis A+B (2x shots 6 month apart, TWINRIX)
3) Diphtheria, Tetanus, Poliomyelitis (DULTAVAX)
4) Typhoid fever (TYPHIM VI)

Probably you should check Belgium healthcare pages for particular info http://be.brussels/living-in-brussels/h … accination

Why don't you think of moving for example to Canary Islands, just few papers to manage, perfect climate all year around, 3 hours and cheap Ryanair flights to mainland Europe (no immigration/border control), the same time zone. Plus you can easily "transfer" your pension from Belgium, get state health insurance and healthcare. From my very first glimpse with Paraguay private healthcare, price level is just the same as in Central Europe and if something serious happens state healthcare is the only way to go. No doubt, I do not know all your details, but from my perspective farming/living in rural Paraguay could be very challenging and hard. It is for a cowboy, adventurous type of person.

Hello again   A987,
I am adventurous in spirit, the question if the body will go along !!   :)
They say you can't know a place until you visit it in person. I think I will get a feel for the place, Paraguay,  once I am there. (so far I got along very well with all South American people I met ) You know I got to tell you, many years ago before I had children I was dreaming of California. I just left the UK and moved to  Belgium and was really interested to move on to the US, so I did. I went to live there for 6 months in San Diego and my wife joined me for most of that time, but to my shock I discovered that despite perfect weather for me, Great beaches, I did not  quite fit into the culture of the place. I could not really see myself living there. That was a lesson for me. Now with Canary Islands the issue is perhaps more the Taxes and the Spanish legal system. Because I already investigated that a bit, though have not been to the Islands yet, but since it is Spanish territory, they will tax me if I have any property in Belgium. They are crazy in the way they look at people owning even empty (unrented) properties in Belgium. They make you PAY TAXES TO THEM on properties outside their country. I think the guys in Paraguay will not give a damn what I have or don't have outside their country. Not that I have multiple buildings, just that I might like to keep what I have for sometime, maybe one of my children would like to come back and live here for work or I don't know what.

Paraguay is a young country with fantastic fiscal status when you compare it to any western country. They have evidently huge  huge potential in many fields. It seems to me this country will boom for many years, just get  some of the corruption out of the way (I know it is difficult and not for me to say anything about it while I am there, will keep my mouth tightly shut on that issue)

The only other very attractive option to keep me here in Europe is to turn myself into Perpetual traveler, not owning tax to any country, but that would mean moving around every 6 months or so. I could do it for maybe a decade but then I guess you get tired, and want  to settle down somewhere.

A987, keep sharing any thoughts, it is great to exchange ideas, no harm done, we can always learn from each other.
Best regards,

I doubt you can so easily escape taxation if you have real estate property in Belgium and rent it. Instrument of your income will be in Belgium, so you'll have to pay taxes on this part of your income in Belgium. "Non-resident taxpayers are taxed on income from real property located in Belgium on the same basis as residents." Regarding Spain I do not know, but it sounds crazy if you do not rent and do not get any income to pay taxes for your real estate in other country. Sure you'll have to pay real estate tax if such exists in Belgium, but Spain can't claim it. In case you are tax resident in Spain and get income from rent in Belgium, I think, you need to check double taxation agreement between Belgium and Spain. Definitely you would have to pay your income tax just once and doubt you care much to Belgium or Spain. Sure Paraguay has good taxation system for some, but then public sector is deprived of income you get bad schools, roads, hospitals, public transport, terrible justice system and social system and etc. So it is not just one way game and in such society cash is the king. Are you sure you can overcome situations then someone's big black jeep has much more real rights on the roads and no one gives any shit about legal traffic rules? This is just a metaphor. Are you sure you can handle 3rd world bureaucracy? There are so many aspect of being just a tourist vs resident, that you won't know it without trying. It seams you want to play all-in game, but I would say go there alone, live for a half a year and then, if you still so optimistic, cut all ties with Belgium including real estate sale and bring your family. Sorry for my realistic view.

A987, there was  no need for "Sorry for my realistic view". I told you I am open minded and welcome your point of view. I rather learn from others' mistakes than repeat them. And of course I will never cut all ties to Belgium and just jump ship. When I left for California I did keep some contacts going here in Belgium and my wife kept her job so we are not rush on people. I appreciate your insight about the corruption. Yes, this will be a challenge and I can't say now if I can handle that. I am super peaceful guy, with Buddhist mentality, I never seek to control anyone and not manipulate anyone. I am the sharp opposite of a bossy guy if you like to know who I am. Will  there be place for someone like me in Paraguay, I don't know until I try.
The story of the taxation in Spain is awful, simply crazy, just see what they did to almost 1 millions Brits overnight. Many Brits that went to live down there were faced with taxes on their  UK  BANK ACCOUNT BALANCES, sounds crazy, but that's why many gave up their residency and returned to the UK. It is never wise to settle down in a bankrupt country, they got to get the money from someone, somehow. See the story of the Dutch German and Danish settlers in the Azores Islands who thought they found paradise and bought properties there only to find 2-3 years later that the Spanish authorities on the Islands raised property taxes MASSIVELY, so many  gave up, sold and left.
Paraguay is no Paradise , no country is, but it could perhaps work for us, with no earthquakes, no big storms, yes, flooding, if you pick the wrong area. Time will tell.

Paraguay state treasury issued recently USD denominated bonds that were bought so quickly by investors. The outside world is waking up to the potential of this country. I told you it is fiscally  super healthy comparing to almost any country on the planet and that is a very big thing, my friend. Big positive for the future of the country.

But I rather you tell me all the bad sides you are aware of in Paraguay, in this way I might have fewer surprises when I come
Wishing you the best as always

Hello Riro,

Regarding your original question, you and your wife can "share" the bank deposit for a proof of solvency if both apply together, you just gotta make sure mentioning that in migrations office.  For your kids you don't need to do this but they still pay the fee for migrations. Please note that each applicant (you, your wife and kids) must do it personally, no questions.

Kind Regards

LorelLaterra,
Thanks so much for your reply.

If you have time, could you confirm please if , once the initial Immigration demand is introduced and approved, do we all have to show up in person within 180 days to apply for the permanent Cedula?

Is it also the case that we must visit once very 3 years to keep the Cedula valid?

I am looking forward to visit your country. It is 10 times the size of Belgium, where I live now, and the 'problem' is how do you begin to see such a big country in just 25 days, as we have for this trip. I guess you can't and that is why we will have to come again  :)
Best regards,

Riro98 :

If you have time, could you confirm please if , once the initial Immigration demand is introduced and approved, do we all have to show up in person within 180 days to apply for the permanent Cedula?

After you will submit your permanent residency application, Migraciones will give you this document under your signature.

https://s29.postimg.org/s0hs342mv/cameringo_20161117.jpg

A987,
Yes, thank you,  looks clear, must apply for the Cedula within 180 days but  I think I do not see they say must be done by the applicant in person, or this is later on (or I missed it).

Riro98, do you know any country where you can apply for your passport or ID card without you present? I don't.

Yes, you have a point, but here they say you are required to be present when you submit the first papers to start the process, so I thought there could be a chance since they saw us once, maybe that would be enough. But it is not the case as you point out.

What process you are talking about? You still do not get. It is completely different applications. First you apply to Migraciones and they will grant you permanent resident status (or not). Then having on hands Carnet de Admisión Permanente and Certificado de Radicación from Migraciones you must apply in 180 days for Cedula de Identidad (ID card) at Departamento de Identificaciones Policia Nacional. For both applications you MUST be present. Cha cha officer "saw you once" and a months later he will remember you  and your passport number? It works this way in Belgium?

A987, I lived in several countries and each country has its own procedure, and sometimes you even have different procedures depending in which region you land. I lived in France and got first a Temporary Permit  Stay for several months, the same people and the same office that saw me for giving me the Temporary permit Stay, also gave me a 10 Year Stay Permit which is the maximum Stay Permit anyone in my situation could have hoped to receive. So I say the same office and the same people delivered both. That was in Metz in Northern France.
Here in Belgium it was really not much different because I arrived in the countryside and was living in a small town, the local Mairie (Commune) was in charge of all the Permits etc and again the same people and the same office dealt with all my papers. So you see why I thought the same might have worked also, in  Paraguay. But I was wrong.
You were right to point out that difference in procedures in Paraguay.

I get your point about procedures in some rural Mairie (it is just a simple registration if you move from other EU country) , but you won't get a passport or ID card without you present. Nowhere.

A987, when I was moving through these EU countries I did not hold an EU citizenship from any EU country. I am originally from outside the EU. But I do remember before I got my Belgian Passport I had to go through some interviews and a checkup by the Belgian Police and at the time they came to check on me (they of course don't tell you when they are going to show up, they seek to surprise you) I was in the US for 6 months  and they said well, he is not here, and put the application aside/on hold. When I came back I asked them to put me back on track and promised to be around  (stay in Belgium) for the next year. Yes, All these procedures can be quite complex.  I must say the Belgian administration has been quite nice to me up to now and they delivered my passport without problems later.

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