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LAS OLAS close to Bahia

Looking on reviews for this new development close to Bahia LAS OLAS?

It is a beautiful concept but just make sure they have access to enough fresh water. Ask for documentation and then confirm that documentation.

berenicehutton :

Looking on reviews for this new development close to Bahia LAS OLAS?

Las Olas is well known on this forum. (Don't say you're "wary" though.  :D  Inside joke.)

http://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=243442

Thank you George, will do. 

We visited las Olas site in Bahia last Wednesday, we stopped there unexpectedly with some friends who knew of the project and are locals to the area, we were met by Jamil and his crew they had a lot of heavy equipment moving dirt around and setting up the different levels for the future home sites, Lots of trails already in place, in regards to the main road entrance we were told it has already been approved for the municipality to pave a two lane road with a bike lane, but this will not happen until they are done with all the heavy equipment work as this will deteriorate the road.
The electricity  and water will be coming from Bahia, the municipality is working on changing the water pipeline in Bahia to a larger one.
We  went back on Thursday and met with David and Kim,  very nice couple,  they drove us all through the development.  David seem to be very eager to answer all of our questions.  He said they will start with the home construction in August of this year.  It is our understanding that 60 homes sites have been already sold, all beach front properties are already sold out on phase 1 and three out of four condominiums  on phase 1 are already sold out as well.  We were also told this project is self funded all from private investors from overseas no local funding from Ecuador.   
We are still doing our due diligence before moving forward in purchasing anything, but if what they are promising and telling us is true it will be a world class development for Ecuador and bring lots of growth to Bahia and the rest of the area.

I'm starting to think that somebody in the Las Olas organization is salting this website with Satisfied Happy Investor posts.

This has gone on entirely too long.

And wasn't it the now-banned jessekimmerling who stopped by that project in the last couple of weeks and posted an eyewitness report for us that the only thing Las Olas had was dirt? Nothing but dirt. Still.

The two years I've been on this website new defenders of Las Olas with no previous post history show up out of nowhere pretty regularly to say how happy they are with the developer and what a great project it's going to be and how satisfied they are the contract terms  - blah, blah, blah

Two years of nothing but dirt. Two years of satisfied investors. And now a deleted eyewitness.

Stinky. My my conspiracy/swindle alerts are going off like a 5 alarm fire.

gardener1 :

And wasn't it the now-banned jessekimmerling who stopped by that project in the last couple of weeks and posted an eyewitness report for us that the only thing Las Olas had was dirt? Nothing but dirt. Still.

The two years I've been on this website new defenders of Las Olas with no previous post history show up out of nowhere pretty regularly to say how happy they are with the developer and what a great project it's going to be and how satisfied they are the contract terms  - blah, blah, blah

Two years of nothing but dirt. Two years of satisfied investors. And now a deleted eyewitness.

Stinky. My my conspiracy/swindle alerts are going off like a 5 alarm fire.

I had no idea he got banned.  I need to start paying more attention. Maybe I will take a trip over to the Olas and get the real scoop and report on my page. Jesse, I would like to hear your side of the story. Please email me at nardsbarley[at]gmail.com

Nards Barley :

I need to start paying more attention. Maybe I will take a trip over to the Olas and get the real scoop and report on my page.

Fabulous idea, Nards :top:

This story is only going to get bigger, and it would be valuable to Las Olas investors and potential investors to learn more about the project from your visit there.

cccmedia in Quito

For the record,  we have no relation at all  to Las Olas Development. 
We are a couple that moved to Quito 14 months ago.  My husband is originally from Brenham Texas and I´m from New York  with tight roots in Ecuador as  my parents and extended family are all living in Ecuador.  I left Ecuador 27 years ago and even though we always managed to visit  the family during  the kids summer vacation every year we are just now taking the time  to do some extensive traveling through the country.
We have  been fortunate to travel all through the country visiting family and friends, staying at some spectacular places and seen some breath taking views of all regions of the country.
We came to Bahia to catch up and  visit our dear  friends who have been living here for many years, they  are very much involved and informed of the politics, law enforcements  and community up coming developments.
So when they took us  to Las Olas we were happily surprised to find out that a new first class development was coming soon to Bahia to provide growth and employment to the area. 
It is to our best interest to see this development be successful because it will help the communities around it, particularly to  a  small school in Canoa  "Escuela Bilingue Algarrobos",  we have been working with the school for the last two years helping raise funds to help with supplies and trying to find English speaking volunteers if you want to learn about their  story check out the website jamesdeanbyrdfoundation.org/   It is a small private school  focus to help children facing adversity in the area with a bilingual education and is always in great need of bilingual volunteers. 
A project like Las Olas could become a light of hope and to most children the only hope they could ever have to a better education an opportunity to break the circle of adversity for themselves and their families.  So yes, we a rooting for them an hope this development does happen for the best interest of the communities around it.

"Coming soon" ? Here's hoping you're not holding your breath.

Las Olas   thread started in 2012
http://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=220093

Las Olas Ecuador development  thread started in 2013
http://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=243442

And then this from [banned] eyewitness jessekimmerling posted 17 March 2015:

"I was exploring and stumbled upon the las olas project a couple weeks ago. I didn't see anything being built. Security came out and sent us on our way. Apparently they think the own the public beach. They were moving a lot of dirt around. If I had to take a wild guess I'd say they're mining and selling fill dirt for construction projects elsewhere based on the amount of dump truck traffic and the amount of dirt they have dug out of the hillsides."


This thread that also offered commentary on the Las Olas project dug up from 2009:
Real Estate Black List 
http://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=456548


Five years of Las Olas for ya right there.
You can see why we're dubious.

(I can use the word 'dubious' right?  ;) )

Invest and things get built you're sitting pretty.

Invest and things don't get built you lose.

Invest money that won't cripple you if it's lost, and in the long run you'll make it back up.

Invest money you can't afford to lose, and you do lose, then you'll be in a tough financial situation.

As much debate at Las Olas has gotten that pretty simply sums things up. Should be pretty obvious by now that there will never be a general consensus on this particular project. If you like it then put money down, if you don't then keep the money in your pocket.

Never ever ever pay in full for a lot in a not yet developed subdivision. Always confirm everything before you invest that down payment. Never ever ever put more than 20% down, and never put more down than you can afford to lose.

There are hundreds of developments up and down the coast of Ecuador that have never had a home built in them. Failed for one reason or another, people's dreams turned into nightmares, all that money invested by the buyer magically disappears because the developer was not qualified to deliver a finished subdivision.

If you love this development put a small down payment and then wait for the infrastructure to be complete. If the developer won't let you do that then walk away...run away as fast as you can.

Don't let the last big decision you make in your life be the worse decision you make in your life.

The post that you are referring  to in 2009 is for a project called Vista Pacifica located north of Jama. I know of the individuals that are developing  both projects and they are not related in any manner once so ever.

Thank you George great advice, appreciate it.

Many pre-construction promoters seem to commit the same offense Las Olas does - lack of communication.  According to their website posting October 6, 2014, the promoters were reviewing the options for solving their water supply issue and would make a decision in thirty days.  No update has been posted to my knowledge.  Similarly, the last general construction update itself was November 1, 2014.  Six months is way too long to go without providing any update and the reports of visitors to Las Olas are only able to state that "Russ" and "Randy" are nice and a lot of dirt has been moved around.  The failure to provide regular reporting might be benign or it may mean the promoters are covering up bad news and construction and other development delays.  That's too bad because I think the speculation might be worse than the reality.  The Las Olas buyers likely won't become disillusioned about the project notwithstanding a few expected delays and obstacles.  So, why not be upfront?

It's a tourist trap, talk to the locals

Did you notice how the golf course was coming along Berenice? The investors seem to be raving about the progress of the golf course, and how beautiful it is. Considering it's in large part being sold as a golfing community, guess the progress of the golf course is kind of important. The advice ecuadorgeorge  gave is solid advice. There has been several threads on Las Olas that have had a ton of views all offering the same type of advice. Probably in general a fair amount of people have seen this project being marketed for some time with what they consider very little progress. Hence speculating that the completion of this project is suspect, which I don't think is necessarily an unfair judgment.

The people who have decided to take the chance on this project by in large seem to be happy, and content with the overall progress. Each persons opinion will be different. They do their due diligence, or hopefully they do that, weigh everything they know, and decide if it's worth taking the chance or not. I personally wouldn't invest unless I saw more progress, but that's just me. There comes a point in time in any investment situation that you have to decide the risk/reward, and if it's worth it, and that will be different for every person. People want to hear with certainty that it's either a good investment, or a bad investment, but it doesn't work that way. Would be great if it did. Investing sure would be a lot easier..

I'm not banned. I just had time out for ignoring a moderator and standing up to a certain somebody.

Based on the similarities in writing style and paterns, I have to agree that it's likely there are fake happy customers promoting Las Olas.

jessekimmerling :

I'm not banned. I just had time out for ignoring a moderator and standing up to a certain somebody.

Based on the similarities in writing style and paterns, I have to agree that it's likely there are fake happy customers promoting Las Olas.

Welcome back!   :cheers:

jessekimmerling :

I'm not banned. I just had time out for ignoring a moderator and standing up to a certain somebody.

Based on the similarities in writing style and paterns, I have to agree that it's likely there are fake happy customers promoting Las Olas.

Similarities in writing style? It's a joke or what?

I was reading every comment in this thread and was agreeing which each of them, positive or negative... But the conspiracy and writing style, come on!

Est-ce qu'il faut que j'écrive en français pour que tu te rendes compte que je suis un fan du Canadiens de Montreal?

I posted live pics of myself holding a written message saying I wasn't David Maksymiuk to convince the scepticals.  There's no conspiracy.  As J600rr mentioned, just different opinions.

Jesse wasn't banned from the forum.  He explained he tried to enter the property from the beach and security told him he couldn't enter the construction site.  Why Benerice got a different treatment? No idea.

(Moderated: no provocations here please)

OK, I have to get back into the discussion.  I've stayed out of it for so long because I felt I was becoming a bit too negative........however......several excellent points have been made regarding the golf course and I have to say, it's ALL about the golf course for me.  If the golf course cannot, or will not, be built exclusively with the "owner's" money (by that, I mean the original investors only; no lot purchasers), the entire project is unworthy. Why?  Because until the golf course is built and has settled in, there will be absolutely no assurance the rest of the project will ever be done.  The golf course is the single biggest part of the project, by far. It is the driver (no pun intended) behind the valuations of lot and home prices.  It is the only feature that will differentiate Las Olas  from any other ocean side development anywhere along the Pacific coast.  It is also the greatest consumer of development dollars, by far.  And will remain so. Permanently.  There is simply no escaping that fact.  A golf course gobbles up money like no other endeavor, IF you plan to keep it in world class shape.  Imponderables arise that carry big price tags and a golf course will deteriorate quickly if those are not met.

I would demand to see the golf course completed and clear evidence of ongoing maintenance provided before I put any money into the project.  The lots and abodes are all secondary and this formula would assure that the demand for them will appreciate handsomely.  The original investors will be duly rewarded as subsequent sales would then be used to finance the rest of the development.  Any approach that ignores this progression of events is, at best, a huge gamble.

No golf course, no dinero.

sleepmaster :

OK, I have to get back into the discussion.  I've stayed out of it for so long because I felt I was becoming a bit too negative........however......several excellent points have been made regarding the golf course and I have to say, it's ALL about the golf course for me.  If the golf course cannot, or will not, be built exclusively with the "owner's" money (by that, I mean the original investors only; no lot purchasers), the entire project is unworthy. Why?  Because until the golf course is built and has settled in, there will be absolutely no assurance the rest of the project will ever be done.  The golf course is the single biggest part of the project, by far. It is the driver (no pun intended) behind the valuations of lot and home prices.  It is the only feature that will differentiate Las Olas  from any other ocean side development anywhere along the Pacific coast.  It is also the greatest consumer of development dollars, by far.  And will remain so. Permanently.  There is simply no escaping that fact.  A golf course gobbles up money like no other endeavor, IF you plan to keep it in world class shape.  Imponderables arise that carry big price tags and a golf course will deteriorate quickly if those are not met.

I would demand to see the golf course completed and clear evidence of ongoing maintenance provided before I put any money into the project.  The lots and abodes are all secondary and this formula would assure that the demand for them will appreciate handsomely.  The original investors will be duly rewarded as subsequent sales would then be used to finance the rest of the development.  Any approach that ignores this progression of events is, at best, a huge gamble.

No golf course, no dinero.

I'm glad you jumped into the conversation because your perspective is helpful.  Yes, more golf course developments have historically been "loss leaders" for developers to sell property. And, while comparing markets is a fools game, which I hope I don't "bogey" (an even worse pun), golf is rapidly declining in popularity and more and more course close for many reasons mainly due to high costs to maintain.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ … aight-year

Las Olas will need to see a demand for green fees and popularity that buck the trend.

Yes, many golf courses close because their cash flow can't meet the large expenses of maintenance.  Too many courses have been built over the years to tap what some believed was a bottomless well of interest and enthusiasm.  However, without that unique cache, many have closed because there was simply no special reason to patronize them.  There are at least a dozen examples of nice golf courses, many of which began life as private courses, in my metropolitan area of roughly 1.5 million people that have either gone bankrupt or have been acquired and turned into low quality daily fee tracks.  Some of the established private clubs struggle to balance their budgets amid competition for members, while a small subset enjoy nearly full memberships and relatively clear sailing year in and year out.  Those that worry the least, or not at all, are the ones with unique and challenging course designs or special settings that cannot be matched regionally.  The example of Mullen, Nebraska in your link speaks to this fact.  There is absolutely nothing in Mullen, Nebraska, yet these courses have been built and have survived.  Mullen also has long had Sand Hills, a Crenshaw designed course that people rave about and have to pull strings to play.  Mullen is miles from any form of civilization, but its setting among the sand hills of Nebraska is stunning.

My view on Las Olas is golf-centric and my point about the Las Olas golf course is that unless the ocean side location is exploited fully to produce and maintain a magnificent seaside golf experience, I would have no interest in investing there.   Nor would I think many people would be interested in absorbing the expense of traveling to Ecuador and to Bahia and paying high fees to play a less than magnificent golf course.  Further, I believe that without that commitment, the course (and thus the rest of the development) would wither on the vine.  Mullen has no residential developments around any of its courses, but people travel hundreds of miles and go through arduous travel and lodging experiences just to play there.  Las Olas may indeed ultimately offer fine equestrian experiences, walking trails, exquisite home sites and ocean views, but many other developments up and down the coast could boast those same features with nothing to differentiate them from Las Olas.  The ability to offer exceptional golf will be the draw in my opinion, for investors and for visitors.  To live in Ecuador, on the coast, affronting a golf course that would offer an experience on the same level as a Bandon Dunes in Oregon or, for goodness sake, Pebble Beach, would be a dream come true for me, and others would be enticed to visit as well, as they are to Mullen, Nebraska.

sleepmaster :

My view on Las Olas is golf-centric and my point about the Las Olas golf course is that unless the ocean side location is exploited fully to produce and maintain a magnificent seaside golf experience, I would have no interest in investing there.  Nor would I think many people would be interested in absorbing the expense of traveling to Ecuador and to Bahia and paying high fees to play a less than magnificent golf course.  Further, I believe that without that commitment, the course (and thus the rest of the development) would wither on the vine.  Mullen has no residential developments around any of its courses, but people travel hundreds of miles and go through arduous travel and lodging experiences just to play there.  Las Olas may indeed ultimately offer fine equestrian experiences, walking trails, exquisite home sites and ocean views, but many other developments up and down the coast could boast those same features with nothing to differentiate them from Las Olas.  The ability to offer exceptional golf will be the draw in my opinion, for investors and for visitors.  To live in Ecuador, on the coast, affronting a golf course that would offer an experience on the same level as a Bandon Dunes in Oregon or, for goodness sake, Pebble Beach, would be a dream come true for me, and others would be enticed to visit as well, as they are to Mullen, Nebraska.

Leaving aside costs, where's the inordinate quantity of water going to come from?

They are using Paspalum type of grass, which is now the standard in high quality seaside golf courses as it's resistant to salt and can be watered with water pumped directly from the ocean.

I totally agree with Sleepmaster regarding the value of the golf course. An equestrian center with direct access to ocean is great, but I don't think a lot of people are willing to pay only for that.  Same for tennis. A 24 condo complex by the sea with pool and a tennis court will do the job.  When we look at the golf course, it's different.

First time I talked with David Maksymuik, he talked to me about is vision to built the #1 golf course in South America, and a course that will be rated in the top 100.  I was REALLY sceptical as I don't think a golf course surrounded by homes can fit the profile.  As you mentioned, The beauty of Bandon Dunes is the fact that there's nothing around. 

Anyway, so I flew there and once on site, I understood what David was talking about.  This is not an expensive course to built and it won't be an expensive course to maintain, like the ones of Bandon Dunes.  The course at Las Olas is there.  No earth to move (which is not the case to build houses!!!), just a few trees to cut, remove bushes, shape and seed.  The fact that manpower in Ecuador is a lot less expensive than in any developing country would also contribute the keep maintenance cost raisonnable for a golf course of such profile.  Add the fact it's built on sand and you get the best combination to get great playing conditions at a fair cost.

Tom Doak's Anatomy of a golf course is a great book to read to understand the differences in design (and cost) of a Bandon Dunes type of course compared to a Pete Dye design type of course.

Also good to point out, Jerry Peirman, a former president of the golf course builder association and former GM of Jack Nicklaus' golf construction company, was invited by Las Olas recently.  You don't fly out this type of guy if you intend to build a $25 green fee golf course.

By the way, Las Olas will be a private golf course with access to members and guests staying in the property only.

I personnaly played only one top course in South America, which is Carmelo golf at Four Seasons in Uruguay.  It was ranked best South American new course when built and #3 in South America. 

I walked and even hit balls on the future Las Olas course back in November and It's sure that Las Olas will EASILY rank higher.  The rating and slope from back tees will surely be in the 78 / 150+ range.  Our home course here in Mauritius is rated 77.5 / 150 from the tip and Las Olas will be longer and more difficult to play from the back, back tees... While allowing beginners and kids to play it inside 4,000 yards.  There's a total of 8 set of tees to fit everyone's game.

All that to say that you need to fly and see for yourself. It will be better than most high end course in Los Cabos (though to beat Diamante, but were talking about a course with unlimited budget!) and I haven't seen a project being such accessible $$$ in whole South America.

Can't wait to see pictures of the front nine where many holes are supposed to be all shaped...

yulrun :

They are using Paspalum type of grass, which is now the standard in high quality seaside golf courses as it's resistant to salt and can be watered with water pumped directly from the ocean.

Back to figuring out where the 500,000 +/- gallons of water per day will come from, the promoter of this turf states:

Sea Spray Paspalum is the first release of an improved, seeded Seashore Paspalum. Seashore Paspalum grass seed produces an extremely salt tolerant turf grass, it provides outstanding turf quality, a bright blue-green color, and a beautiful, uniform appearance. Sea Spray Paspalum turfgrass is ideal for temperate-to-hot, humid coastal climates and affords excellent drought tolerance due to its deep and extensive root system. Sea Spray is excellent for use on turf grass areas irrigated with effluent water or subject to naturally high saline conditions, as it is capable of germinating with water containing less than 2,000 ppm salt (although fresh water is recommended) and tolerating soil with a pH range of 4.5-9.0.

Sea water is roughly 35,0000 ppm salt!  You're not going to pump and water the course from the ocean (and have any turf).  While these new genetically altered grass seeds are great options for seaside courses, they are deemed "salt tolerant" and are not salt water grasses that can germinate and grow and live on salt water.  Although the salt content varies, even so-called "brackish" water is typically too salty.

Got the info from here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paspalum_vaginatum

It seems watering with seawater wouldn't kill the grass, but would kill weed, which is an ecological way to avoid pesticides! ;)

I don't have info on the specific watering strategy, so feel free to contact Las Olas which is always the best way to get information.

David showed me the location of a huge retention basin (that's a direct translation from French, not sure it's the right expression) next to the 12th hole and the par-3 practice course.  It hold quite a lot of rain water coming from the mountains.  Apart from that, there's a well they can use as fresh water for the community will be supplied by the province/city.

"Salt water" is a relative term no doubt.  Pure salt water?  No way it will produce an outcome anyone would want to play on or look at.  So, it becomes a question of the ability of the developer to obtain suitable and sufficient quantities of fresh water from the retention ponds (run-off) and the public fresh water sources and any potable available from wherever to mix with the salt water to produce, grow and maintain a decent turf.  I hope there's a plan to do this. 

Frankly, the amount of fresh water consumed by golf courses will choke even the most moderate climates having ample rainfall.  From what I read, the industry has a tough sell.  Golfers want every course they play to look like Augusta National - lush, vivid green, weed-free, heavily landscaped with thirsty plants - when doing so pollutes the ground water with chemicals and consumes gross amounts of valuable water.  So, courses seeking to minimize the environmental harm need to look more like a pasture and not a lawn and change the attitude of golfers on what is "a nice course." California golfers (where water restrictions have reduce usage 50% the past year or so) will be the first ones to get used to playing golf on a goat pasture.  We'll see if golfers are still willing to pay anything to play their sport under restricted watering conditions.

I don't mean to sound too negative, but just let me add that the lush green course you envision may not be what can be delivered and, more importantly, may be far more expensive for residents than anyone anticipates.  If Las Olas buyers are wealthy, then the huge assessments needed to support the course will be a rounding error to them.  For other people of modest means (we can all agree that Las Olas will not be suited for the "economic refugee" seeking to live on $1500 a month or less), the assessments may be huge without a hotel and ample external demand to support the course's operations.  So, what you see as a "positive" I see as a huge drawback in selling home lots and (someday) condos because of the uncapped and unknown financial burden associated with the golf course.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Your not negative. You just take nothing for granted. I also did my math, but I have a different reference scheme to look at.

I play 90% of the time on this course (www.tamarina.mu).  Yeah, I know... ;)

When I first arrive here four years ago, there was an average of 40 players per day, max.  Even today you can arrive on a nice Sunday morning and there's 5 cars in the parking lot!

50/50 locals vs tourists.  Locals pay $40/round + cart, tourists pay $120/round + cart.  It's a +7,500 yards course and it's long from forward tees so lots of fairways surface to maintain. Very few waste areas.  Big greens and lots of bunkers which is costly to maintain.  40 crew members, all locals except a South African green keeper.

The chairman of the group who owns the course was a board member of company I worked for, so I know him fairly well.  I told him I was worried about the money they were loosing.  He said not so bad and gave me a number that was a lot lower than I thought.  After investigation, I realize that ground crew cost nothing!  90% of the staff get paid less than $5,000/year Cost to company.

The same in the US or Canada would cost minimum $20k more x 35 employees = $700,000 savings in salary per year.

That's the only reason why I think you can built such golf course in Ecuador without loosing money.  I also travel frequently in South Africa and the same equation applies: Unbelievable track, well maintened for 1/3 the price you would pay in North America or Europe.  Cheap labor cost is the reason why this golf course is possible to be maintain at high standards.  That said, expect a "natural" look, not a manicured one.  Tee off, fairways and greens will be nice, but from what I saw, there will be a lot of "wild" areas to avoid and a lot of natural bunkers. I'm not expecting a Pete Dye course. More a Tom Doak course.

What ever happened with Vista Pacifica? Nothing I can find on web from past 5 or do years

Las Olas, The embassy has received numerous complaints about the project. They have taken numerous purchasers monies and not delivered a single property, They dont even have the proper municipal permissions I have been told.

ivandemur :

Las Olas, The embassy has received numerous complaints about the project. They have taken numerous purchasers monies and not delivered a single property, They dont even have the proper municipal permissions I have been told.

WOW, first time poster complaining about our old favorite Las Olas.  Does anyone with more direct information have an update on the golf and or residences?

Hey mugtech.  Las Olas ceased monthly updates last year and has only posted two so far this year, the latest being around April would be my guess.  Here's an excerpt on the "progress":

The first three homes at Las Olas are nearing completion as the doors, windows, flooring, and cabinets are currently being installed. The 7Kv solar panels and solar thermal hot water systems have been installed and are fully operational. We are very happy with the construction of the first three homes and believe that through using a slow, detailed approach, we have been able to educate our Las Olas construction teams with the high standards that we expect each and every Las Olas residence to be constructed.

Las Olas is preparing to construct the next three homes as well as a beach club!  Construction is due to be started in June. It is our desire to complete these three homes in a four-month period and the beach club shortly thereafter.

As soon as we are comfortable the rains have ended we will continue with the installation of the underground power, fiber optic, and water lines.


Four more months to complete at that time. So, did the 3 homes get completed?  Do they have power and water?

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