Julian Assange

My wife and children are Ecuadorian and I've been living here for 5 years.

The Assange situation is not good. Though neither of us like the guy and he has put an awful lot of lives at risk with wikileaks we can understand why he's holed up somewhere out of US reach.

As long as the death penalty isn't thrown around we're not so bothered what happens to him and more bothered with the situation between my home country of the UK and Ecuador. I've already had some problems locally and the UK went from being a dreamland for most Ecuadorians to being something that needs scraping of their shoe.

I'm sure this isn't going to help with work but I can completely understand why Ecuadorians feel this way. Besides being very patriotic the disrespect shown by the UK government towards Ecuador has been deep cutting.

Then, I read BBC news everyday and so far 60% of the comments left on the Assange article page are slamming Ecuador on media suppression and Correa being a dictator. They obviously believe their own media stories and don't believe suppression exists in their own countries.

It's very frustrating to be stuck in the middle. Ecuadorians aren't big on Assange yet they are rightly trying to protect their self respect. Locally, Ecuadorians are really annoyed with the UK and their attitude and worse now the British media is bending things.

To be fair Correa hasn't exactly had the anti-American attitude of many other Latin American countries and the US just seems to want him out because he didn't sign the free-trade agreement with them. Correa has made a lot of improvements in Ecuador and apart from the usual odd couple of silly comments that global politicians make he seems generally interested in not being involved with the rest of the World's problems and just concentrating on making Ecuador better for it's people.

Not sure if this was the type of reaction you were looking for?

Thanks adamskiec, I am happy to read a honest and straightforward reply...this is exactly the kind of response I was looking for...honest to God without any judgement or bad mouthing. Thanks again.

Do we have any different view from anyone else?

Cheers,

Sam.

Hi.
Interesting question.
I am also married to an ecuadorian.
The first preocupation of the family was if Brittain or another country will punish Ecuador economically for this. Of course they disliked the Brittish attitude. Whether he deserve asylum or not, they dont care or are as just as splitted in the matter as people elsewhere.
And they will all vote for Correa in the next election. Not because they are very satisfied, but because he is less crooked than the other candidates :-)

He is a hero to the world of freedom!

I beg to differ Dr. I do believe he had his chance to grandstand and he took it. I don't think saying you will protect a person who has put many lives at risk, and is wanted by another country for crimes makes you a hero. You have a much different defination of a Hero than I do.

adamskiec wrote:

and just concentrating on making Ecuador better for it's people.

sounds too optimistic

Deemetrio wrote:

adamskiec wrote:

and just concentrating on making Ecuador better for it's people.

sounds too optimistic

Maybe, but the World could do with a little more optimism these days...

Thanks guys...I am very new in Ecuador and still trying to understand the culture and people here. Its nice to hear about how people think of the President and his efforts. Yes, politicians will play politics and not all their decisions will be based on peoples welfare...but to my mind, Julian Assange saga brings up some points to debate:

1. Why Ecuador?
2. Some colleagues tell me they are unhappy because they feel he needs to go back to Sweden and answer the rape charge. But the real question is: is there any credible evidence that the charge is actually true or is it just a fabricated charge against him to get him back to Sweden so he could then be extradited to US to face trial for Espionage and be awarded death penalty? Because if the latter is true, as he and his supporters do believe, then extraditing him to Sweden is a greater crime than rape!
3. Whither freedom of speech and press in all this controversy?

I would like to hear your take on these.

Regards,

Sam.

Why Ecuador?.... He needed to seek asylum/help from a country that does not sit in the hands of US or their demands. This ruled out most of Europe, Australia, Canada etc. Secondly, going to somewhere like Venezuala for help would have put him in the bad books with the rest of the World as countries like Venezuala are too anti-American and it would have made him look like he had done something very wrong to the point of getting opposition protection.

I watched an 'Assange' questions and answers session with Correa on the Monday night following the row and there seemed to be two very British type people amongst those asking questions. They were quite rude and for the second time in less than a week made me feel embarrassed to be British. I know that the media is trying to push Assange and Correa together as best buddies but it still feels like a process of discreditation. Just look at the excitement of the US and Colombia when they thought they had found laptops at a Farc camp linking Correa with them.... maybe I missed it but still waiting for something ligit to come from that.

Assange really should head off to Sweden, and really he should be answering questions on espionage too but faced with death sentence I think anybody should be entitle to protect themselves. The accusations of espionage/hacking etc are of worldwide consequence and maybe this guy needs drawing through international courts, but threatening him with the death penalty isn't going to help getting him into the right place for questioning.

Assange thinks he is a leader in the freedom of speech and expression, especially for reporters. He knows he has done wrong and knows that countries have to abide by laws when processing asylum and he has taken advantage of it.

On the side of the US if he really was frightened for his life maybe he should have considered making a different speech on the Embassy balcony.... something up the lines of "I cocked up, I did wrong and I need to be treated fairly if I end up in court somewhere with a Worldwide audience (as he wants for the US)". Instead he did the worlds most stupid thing and still started defending Wikileaks and suggested the US get off his back.... not clever when a death sentence could be looming in the distant future.

Wikileaks actually hasn't really helped anybody. Each country's secret services are already aware of the crap that they broadcast. Shoving it on the internet to wind up the public in any country and endangering the lives of a lot of people is plain stupidity and he needs to answer for it. Anonymous (hacking group) have probably achieved more but even then it's down to the opinion of these people as to what they think is right and what is wrong. Either way, the media plays a bigger part in the problems and will twist whatever they want and Assange supporting freedom of speech the way he does allows media truth and media lies to be spread, plus giving the media more tools to broadcast propaganda and corruption.

I think people really should just take the whole situation with a pinch of salt. Journalists can be good and can be bad, politicians the same. Good people can make bad decisions and mistakes which underneath doesn't stop them from being good. Let the media get on with their jobs, it's down to the intelligence of the public as to whether they believe everything they hear or not, and at some stage the public will have to accept that their respective governments will keep information from them and need to to control and organise.... it does actually provide some kind of safety,law and order in the face of anarchy.

Sorry for being pacifist, the World needs to calm down.

adamskiec wrote:

Sorry for being pacifist, the World needs to calm down.

Hey, no need to apologize...after all we are trying to have a honest to God discussion here, and are looking for honest (and different) point of views, that I believe help us all to clear up the muddles in our heads and make the right opinions or decisions.

And yes, the world does need to calm down!

Thank you for your opinion.

Anyone else has a different take on this?

Cheers,

Sam.

The real villain is US foreign policy, expose that killing machine for what it really is and your life will be at risk, ask Assange.  Wave the flag, trump up some charges and save the world for Democratic,. Sheep are easy to slaughter.

t

Tmac, I agree the foreign policy of the US has some faults. There is no denying that our policy is to keep oil flowing into the US. If not there would be a shutdown. We are not set up like smaller countries where everyone lives close to their workplace and trains and busses take you everywhere. We are very spread out. I myself, live 22 miles from my workplace in the country. No trains here, or busses. Every family has 2 vehicles. Almost a necessity for Texas. If the government didn't secure cheaper oil and keep if flowing, nobody can get to work, the country implodes. Many dont understand that. And when someone rocks the boat, it causes big waves.
A major problem in this country is the government worries more about gay rights and giving immigrants rights. They ought to be saying they are going to impliment mass transportation, like electric trains, and putting up solar panels in our wastelands to power electric cars. But instead they squabble about stuff that will get them elected by the masses.
Another thing,if Ecuador was under attack by a big power do you actually think they could defend themselves without help? People forget that in the 1940's there was a good chance the world might have been speaking Japanese or German without the help of the bad ol USA.
So much for flag waving today. I love my country, even with its problems. But I see the future in the US looking glum. That is why Ecuador looks to be a haven for retirees. It has gotten quite expensive to live here on a fixed income. Almost impossible for those living on SS.
I have gotten off of the subject. Sorry, but I got riled up.

Txsbigfoot wrote:

No trains here, or busses. Every family has 2 vehicles. Almost a necessity for Texas. If the government didn't secure cheaper oil and keep if flowing, nobody can get to work, the country implodes

Interesting point of view. Didn't you think, why government not developing trains or buses in Texas? R u for real that "support peace" in near east cheaper and safer instead of that?

Txsbigfoot wrote:

If the government didn't secure cheaper oil and keep if flowing, nobody can get to work, the country implodes. Many dont understand that. And when someone rocks the boat, it causes big waves.

So, its ok to attack smaller nations and kill millions to get some oil? Every thing is fair in the mad scramble to get more oil?

I'm not sure Vietnam or Afghanistan have oil but we sure sold a lot guns, great for the economy?  Getting back to the Assange question. It reminds me of the Elsberg - Pentagon papers case. Again if it was not for screwed up foreign policy people would not have to risk it all to expose what is really going on. True patriots don't always wave the flag or look the part. The truth is as hard to come by today as it was in the 60's. It will become much harder to come by if they can silence Assange.


t

t

As I said, I am not a supporter for many of the things the government has done. Has any other government always been on the up and up? I dont think so.
And for the killing of millions and seizing their assets. If that were so I wouldn't be paying $3.75 a gallon for gasoline right now. Did the US government take Germany, Japan, Kuwait, Iraq and make their territories? Nope they gave it back.
And if I am not mistaken, didnt those governments kill everyone in their countries that didnt get on the bandwagon?
As I said earlier also, we need alternative energy sources. But everything is tied to oil. I mean everything. So you cannot just mass produce something else and put everyone out of work. That ends up with having Soylent Green for dinner.
As far as Assange is concerned I hope they get him.
So write back all you want. I cannot and am not trying to change anyones mind. Just my point of view.
By the way, I lived in the middle east. I know how wonderful the arabs are with others. When the oil runs out, they return to caravans as you cant grow much there, cant desalinize water without electricity, so they go back to the middle ages.

Hey guys...how did we get to oil from Assange? LOL...lets not fight and stick to Assange Please.

Cheers,

Sam.

I agree.

Mike

Txsbigfoot wrote:

Did the US government take Germany, Japan, Kuwait, Iraq and make their territories? Nope they gave it back.

common, yes, territory gave back, but they still "controls minds" of these governments. I am agree in one point, USA government cares of the nation more than any other government in the world cares of own nation, IMHO.

Txsbigfoot wrote:

I beg to differ Dr. I do believe he had his chance to grandstand and he took it. I don't think saying you will protect a person who has put many lives at risk, and is wanted by another country for crimes makes you a hero. You have a much different defination of a Hero than I do.

Do you know for a fact that Assange put any lives at risk or are you just reiterating what you have heard in certain news reports?

One has to be careful establishing belief based on what others say.

The US would love you to believe that he has jeopardized people's lives. That lends more credence to their case against Assange.

Also they would love you to believe that Assange committed rape. Again more credence to their case. Maybe he did maybe he didn't.

Can any of us be sure any of this happened. Unless you have first hand evidence I don't think you can be sure and as a result none of us are in a position to judge Assange.

When I speak of the US, I mean the US political system and not necessarily the American people.

I agree, he is innocent till proven guilty.
So step out and lets find out. You cant prove yourself innocent hiding under a chair.
And yes, I know everyone that believes is innocent as the driven snow will say he is getting framed.
I have nothing more to say on the subject.

Txsbigfoot wrote:

I agree, he is innocent till proven guilty.
So step out and lets find out. You cant prove yourself innocent hiding under a chair.
And yes, I know everyone that believes is innocent as the driven snow will say he is getting framed.
I have nothing more to say on the subject.

Lets say he does "step out" as you put it. If he does he quite likely will go to prison on what may be trumped up charges. Put yourself in his position, would you "step out"?

MikeGB wrote:

Do you know for a fact that Assange put any lives at risk or are you just reiterating what you have heard in certain news reports?

I want to answer your question but first I need to highlight a couple of things. Also I agree with most of your post, so this is just an answer to the question.... which is yes by the way.

Firstly, there are many countries with nutters and fanatics in very high places who will hit out at not just the support mechanisms of governments like that of the US but also anybody even vaguely linked to it.

Secondly, people need to understand that not every person in a support mechanism are aware that they are a part of that support, and even if they are it doesn't make them a supporter.

Just an example:
Imagine an IT professional (not your usual office geek, but a specialist) who is contracted in to provide security analysis on industrial systems to a company in a country affected by political instability, lets say, publicly, a water company. The US is involved in operations there. The IT pro knows little of the information contained within the system he is securing and unaware that his/her overall 'employer' is actually the US government; plus the water company is a cover (I can assure you it does happen, not necessarily with the US but anybody's government). Assange and his associates release secret information on the operations the US government is performing in said country. This secret information will most likely include details of the more publicly seen company that the IT pro was contracted to, of who's name is now traceable. Regardless of where that IT guy/girl lives there is now a risk of kidnap or even assassination, thus my comment about fanatics above.

It doesn't make any difference who the IT guy is, the country he believes he is working for or the country he is working in. The point is Wikileaks put information in the public domain that exposes innocent parties. I wish I could give you a more detailed, factually based answer, but then of course I could be putting myself at risk if I had been the IT guy

adamskiec wrote:

The point is Wikileaks put information in the public domain that exposes innocent parties.

Yes, I accept your point that innocent parties may have been exposed.

But in this case was there any harm done to anyone? I have not heard of any. And it is possible that Wikileaks evaluated that potential before they posted.

My point is that there are so many unknowns that none of us has a right to judge.

MikeGB wrote:

But in this case was there any harm done to anyone? I have not heard of any. And it is possible that Wikileaks evaluated that potential before they posted.

When I say hint I don't mean it sarcastically, but please take the hint I was trying to state in my post.... the risk of harm is there and there are innocent people now having to watch their families and their own backs. As to whether it has already happened you probably will never find out.

If Wikileaks did evaluate that potential then they have intentionally caused safety issues for those innocent parties by publishing the docs and more reason to try Assange in court.

Still, I completely agree with the media bending the truth and the overreaction of the United States. Another good example of this is Gary Mckinnon; yes, maybe a bit of a plonker for doing what he did yet no shred of evidence so far from the US of secret information breach. This guy is facing extradition from the UK and faces upto 70 years in a US prison for looking for UFO's in almost unsecured computer systems. Why he can't face a UK court (he was in England when he did it) and do time here I can't understand, but the US like to show who's boss and the UK is slowly becoming it's pet.

adamskiec wrote:

there are innocent people now having to watch their families and their own backs.

If Wikileaks did evaluate that potential then they have intentionally caused safety issues for those innocent parties by publishing the docs and more reason to try Assange in court.

Still, I completely agree with the media bending the truth and the overreaction of the United States.

Do you have indisputable evidence that indicates that "there are innocent people now having to watch their families and their own backs"?

Because if you don't then you can hardly, legitimately, make this statement.

Please provide me with evidence for your statement and I will happily concede to your beliefs and I will have learned something.

If you are or had been one of those people who ended up in an even slightly compromised security situation would you go round slapping evidence of what happened over the internet to satisfy the curiosity of some unknown person in an expat forum??? No, didn't think so.

Try reading my posts again. I think you'll find I've given Assange enough understanding and even provided a reason for him seeking refuge with a largely globally neutral country.

The guy posted potentially dangerous information on the internet. If someone leaks your credit card details, pictures of your children or something similar over the net would you be happy? No. Even with the release of the information has the US or any other government had to answer to it?.... no again. So this has not brought required answers to the attention of the public. It has not landed any politicians in court over illegal activities or war crimes. It has not corrected the foreign policies of any governments.... it's done nothing apart from land secure information into the hands of nutters around the world that can make use of it.

The problem is now that there isn't much hope of getting him to answer important questions to establish if laws have been broken in obtaining and releasing the information. As in my example above, if someone steals your credit card details you expect them to be prosecuted. Unfortunately due to the heavy handed reputation of the US it isn't safe for him to go for questioning.

Also just consider for two seconds if (not saying he did) he really did commit a sexual offence against these two women. He now has the protection of political motivation and could get away with it.

Mike, do you have inconclusive proof he has not put anyone in jeapordy? Apparently you are much smarter than the average bear and have a wonderfully brilliant defense for the man. Apparently the rest uf uz ize dumbe.

MikeGB wrote:

adamskiec wrote:

there are innocent people now having to watch their families and their own backs.

If Wikileaks did evaluate that potential then they have intentionally caused safety issues for those innocent parties by publishing the docs and more reason to try Assange in court.

Still, I completely agree with the media bending the truth and the overreaction of the United States.

Do you have indisputable evidence that indicates that "there are innocent people now having to watch their families and their own backs"?

Because if you don't then you can hardly, legitimately, make this statement.

Please provide me with evidence for your statement and I will happily concede to your beliefs and I will have learned something.

In fact, last post on this one for me. I have been pretty unbiased throughout the thread, haven't offended anybody and can't be doing with arsy ridiculous requests like this. I joined this forum to meet other folks that enjoyed living in Ecuador and put a bit of neutraility in and all I get is having to back myself up.

MikeGB, I have every right to make statements like I've made as it brought up the possibilities of repercussions of Assange's actions. You seem to think that none of this could happen because 'You haven't heard about any of it'. I hope you've heard about Tungurahua erupting, but not to worry if you haven't because then it means nobody has to evacuate... because it's not happening.

adamskiec wrote:

MikeGB, I have every right to make statements like I've made as it brought up the possibilities of repercussions of Assange's actions. You seem to think that none of this could happen because 'You haven't heard about any of it'. I hope you've heard about Tungurahua erupting, but not to worry if you haven't because then it means nobody has to evacuate... because it's not happening.

That is a rather excessive comment to make (i.e., that it hasn't happened because I don't know about it). Where in my comments did I say that it hasn't happened? I don't know whether it has happened or not (i.e., that innocent people have been placed in jeopardy). And just because I don't know that it may have happened doesn't mean that it hasn't. Since you made the statement that it had happened, I was interested in how you knew that to be true. That's all.

Anyone asked to back up what they say should not take offence. In the scientific community asking for proof happens all the time. It would be a sad profession if it didn't.

MikeGB wrote:

That is a rather excessive comment to make (i.e., that it hasn't happened because I don't know about it). Where in my comments did I say that it hasn't happened?

MikeGB wrote:

But in this case was there any harm done to anyone? I have not heard of any. And it is possible that Wikileaks evaluated that potential before they posted.

MikeGB wrote:

Do you have indisputable evidence that indicates that "there are innocent people now having to watch their families and their own backs"?

Because if you don't then you can hardly, legitimately, make this statement.

Please provide me with evidence for your statement and I will happily concede to your beliefs and I will have learned something.

Hi.

Could you please calm down here?

Harmonie.