Can anything be done to a scammer?

In 2021, I used a Saigon company for a business visa, spoke to other foreigners who used his services, and they were successful. That success did not follow onto me. He did not deliver as promised. Anyway, I have been waiting for months for a refund, and nothing yet. He keeps making excuses, but he has always been in touch, telling me to wait. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but now I feel I have been scammed 100%

I got desperate, I have a kid in Vietnam, and I know it was my own fault, and my money is probably gone, never to be seen again. But I would like to warn people about him and his company. What can be done?

I have paperwork on his passport, company details, name and contact details, bank details, and communication from him confirming that failing to provide a visa will result in him refunding me in full. I am currently in Vietnam waiting on my WP to be processed. Any assistance would be appreciated. I really want to close this chapter
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Hello Charlie,

Thank you for sharing your experience. This might help other people who find themselves in a similar predicament.

Unfortunately these scams are becoming more and more common nowadays.

Have you tried reporting the said company to the authorities? Strict actions need to be taken against these scammers.



Yoginee
Expat.com team
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In 2021, I used a Saigon company for a business visa, spoke to other foreigners who used his services, and they were successful. That success did not follow onto me. He did not deliver as promised. Anyway, I have been waiting for months for a refund, and nothing yet. He keeps making excuses, but he has always been in touch, telling me to wait. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but now I feel I have been scammed 100%

I got desperate, I have a kid in Vietnam, and I know it was my own fault, and my money is probably gone, never to be seen again. But I would like to warn people about him and his company. What can be done?

I have paperwork on his passport, company details, name and contact details, bank details, and communication from him confirming that failing to provide a visa will result in him refunding me in full. I am currently in Vietnam waiting on my WP to be processed. Any assistance would be appreciated. I really want to close this chapter
- @IamCharlie

What month in 2021 did you use this agent?

Was the date of your application post-covid enforcement of immigration policies, used against some agents?

What was the nature of your business to warrant issuance of a visa?

Was your business legit, or a paper-business set up by the agent?

What is the approximate amount of refund you were expecting to receive?


I wouldn't be able to even begin to offer you (proper) suggestions without knowing these points.
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@Aidan in HCMC
Great questions but somehow I don't he will answer all.
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@IamCharlie:

Write it off as a bad investment. He may have had insurmountable personal issues. He did play hope and pray with you, sorry, but  that is what has been called in the past. Best just move on = close that chapter.

MAc

PS: Thankyou so very much for kind warnings.
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@Yoginee Thank you kindly. I will try my best to see what can be done

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@Aidan in HCMC

This was in August of 201. It was also during the beginning of the new strain of the virus that was found in South Africa. There would have been delays in the process. He wasn't an agent, however used his lawyer, laywer of the company to handle the paperwork, etc. Or so I have been told. As per my post, I have a son that was born in 2020, and I just couldn't get to him because of COVID. At the time I was desperate, because I wanted to be reunited with my son, so it was hard. I know I was wrong, I just had to. Ive heard of other agents doing the same thing to get people into VN, I just couldn't wait anymore. The company is legit, I have their papers with licence and everything. This company is allowed to "hire" foreigners, thats why he did it for others before me.
I don't want to confirm the amount, sorry
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@Mac68 I am trying my utmost best to do so. It even caused issues with me and my son's mother because of this. She's the one that brought him to me. He helped her friend who had an american boyfriend. It just didnt go the same for me

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Have you tried reporting the said company to the authorities? Strict actions need to be taken against these scammers.



Yoginee
Expat.com team
- @Yoginee

A kind response but you apparently have no direct experience with civil law enforcement in Vietnam.   The authorities will side with the local, 99.9% of the time.
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@Aidan in HCMC 

This was in August of 201. It was also during the beginning of the new strain of the virus that was found in South Africa. There would have been delays in the process. He wasn't an agent, however used his lawyer, laywer of the company to handle the paperwork, etc. Or so I have been told. As per my post, I have a son that was born in 2020, and I just couldn't get to him because of COVID. At the time I was desperate, because I wanted to be reunited with my son, so it was hard. I know I was wrong, I just had to. Ive heard of other agents doing the same thing to get people into VN, I just couldn't wait anymore. The company is legit, I have their papers with licence and everything. This company is allowed to "hire" foreigners, thats why he did it for others before me. 
I don't want to confirm the amount, sorry
- @IamCharlie

Hi Charlie. As you, I, and many long time expats in VN know, the timing of the submission of the application on your behalf could not have been worse.

If memory serves me, it was around July of 2021 that VN immigration halted the issuance/renewal of tourist visas, and began the close inspections of companies hiring foreigners as "experts". The immigration authorities were well aware that companies were selling "positions" to foreigners, and that many gov't dep't heads were working in tandem with these companies to facilitate the foreigner's hiring. Consequently, heads rolled. And continue to roll, though for different reasons. The inner circle seem to have decided that it is now time for a shake-up.

Now, what can be done? I am not a lawyer, and am not offering you legal advice, only suggesting to you what I would do myself.

I would not give up on hopes to recoup your monies, not just yet. You stated that you have "...(copy of )his passport, company details, name and contact details, bank details, and communication from him confirming that failing to provide a visa will result in him refunding me in full". This is very good. It is in fact an admission of guilt on his part, and he knows it. You didn't mention whether you have the contact details of his lawyer. If you do, I would first advise him that you feel that enough time has passed, that this should now move on to litigation, and that you have intent to contact his lawyer directly. Let him stew over that for 24 hours, and then follow up if you have not received a response. You may find, however, that his "lawyer" is in fact his inside man at a department with stamping authorization.

Having the actual contact details of his lawyer would be a real bonus, as unless the lawyer is being held on retainer (doubtful) the company owner will be billed at the lawyers hourly rate for any contact/discussions/correspondence with you about his client (him). It would not take a great number of calls, emails, and friendly chats with the lawyer before he starts to feel the pinch of the lawyer's billings. I would stress here that it is important for you to maintain a cordial and respectful dialogue with the lawyer. You do not want to alienate the lawyer (who you now want to use as a leverage tool).

Advise the lawyer (or the owner, failing your having contact details for the lawyer), that you have prepared "demand letters" to be served on his bank, his customers, and to any other known receivables instructing them to withhold any and all funds payable to his company in favour of your expected "court judgement" against him. You've been here a while now, and so you know the importance of face in VN culture. Unlike an arm or a leg (which it seems this has already cost you), you only get one face. Would be a shame for him to lose it.

Let him know that you are preparing to make inquiries at the immigration dep't to assess the status of the application he (supposedly) submitted on your behalf. Ensure that he is aware of the documents you have from him ("...his passport, company details, name and contact details, bank details, and communication from him confirming that failing to provide a visa will result in him refunding me in full"). I would not copy him any of these documents, just outline to him, vaguely, what you hold.

If he has an office, and if it is not too far from you, unannounced friendly visits might assist in goosing him in to action. Similarly, standing in front of his property (properties?) with a measuring tape to document the width of his propert where it meets the street would certainly catch his attention (do NOT venture on to his propety. Stay on the street).

I would try earnestly to not have this escalate beyond yourself, him, and the lawyer. You do not want this to spiral out of control which would without a doubt further complicate matters for you (financially, and possibly visa-wise). I strongly suggest that you keep this as low key as possible, and not give him in any way grounds to accuse you of libel or slander. If he were to suffer a loss due to your having affected his business or reputation you might be on the hook. If indeed you do push this further and secure a court judgement, then execute as you see fit. Prior to a judgement, exercise extreme discretion.

I asked what the amount was that you were out, only to ascertain just how far to push this thing. I certainly respect your not wanting to divulge that info.


Please do not think that I would pass any judgement on you. If I were in a position to do so, I would rule in your favour. I would roll naked for a mile over broken glass, and then spit in the eye of the god damned devil himself to be near my child. This, understandably, is of paramount importance to you and to your child's welfare and development. My advice to you, at this point, is to treat the recovery of your money more as a hobby than as your central point of focus. We both know that the importance of the monies, of your wanting to expose the company owner and to alert others, and even for justice to be meted out all pale in comparison to what you know to be truly important.

Anecdotally, I have heard that there are avenues open in VN to people in your position (parent of a child). Also, I do believe there is a visa which can be issued on compassionate grounds. I have no idea whether the child and mother are dependant on you for support, but if you are the sole bread winner it would be something to investigate.
See here, and after opening the link on that page, scroll down to "MARRIAGE AND FAMILY RELATIONS INVOLVING FOREIGN ELEMENTS",  Article 121. Protection of lawful rights and interests of parties to marriage and family relations involving foreign elements. I'm assuming that as the father you would qualify as a "Family Relation"
There is also this, and as extreme as it might appear it is still an option.

Again, this is just an outline of things I'd do. Hobbies are fun!

Good luck, Charlie. Please keep us updated, sir.
Keep your eye on the ball (i.e. your child).

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@Mac68 I am trying my utmost best to do so. It even caused issues with me and my son's mother because of this. She's the one that brought him to me. He helped her friend who had an american boyfriend. It just didnt go the same for me

- @IamCharlie

I hope this has passed, but if not it's important to sit with her and let her know that you realize the only person to whom blame should be apportioned, is the company owner.
Both you, she, and your child are victims.

Again, good luck
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@Aidan in HCMC Good helpful response.
Quite different from all the usual degrading remarks form those who presume to be on the top of the advice food chain on this site.
Having lived in Vietnam HCMC during the 2021 lockdowns, I'm quite aware with the confusion and independent processes within the local immigration offices. Seems like each has their own regulations. My Viet friends agree with me that agents fear officials of any agency. Intimidation of reporting to officials works!
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@THIGV He's Indian, living in Laos, he has another company there too. My son's mother is the local, and the money is for her and my son. I'm hoping there's something legally she can do

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Oh man, this is amazing. And by amazing its refreshing to receive some feedback that is not about just knocking me down for getting myself into this situation. I will definitely consider these suggestions, thanks again. Thanks for the links, will be looking into this as well.

So after posting this post, I started doing research on him, his company and tried to find some connection. Then found this company in Laos, *** tour agency, and it turns out he's a partner in this company as well. Contacted the director and asked if he knew this guy (***), and he said yes. I explained to him and that I am looking for him about money he owes me. He advised he will speak to him when they meet in 2 weeks time.
Then I receive an email response from ***telling me why I went to his embassy (which I didn't), and that he's not a scammer, and that he will sort out refund by September. Now, he has done this kind of thing many times before. He even promised to refund half of it, and still didn't. I tried calling his lawyer, no answer and sent her a message, hopefully she will respond. I hope this works somehow because they need the money more than I do :-(
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@devarj57 Thank you for the suggestion. I haven't really tried threatening him because I still thought he would do the right thing. I never even thought about contacting his embassy until he mentioned it to me

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@IamCharlie

Hi I have asked admin to remove the guys name & Company YES I have read your story - forum has a policy of no personal info.

Doxing him may not be the best way to go if you are seeking smooth interaction with his company.

Andy
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@Aidan in HCMC Good helpful response. - @devarj57

Kind words, thank you. It's my way of paying it forward. An investment, if you will.
Without doubt I'll soon be the poster looking for advice.
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@IamCharlie

Hi I have asked admin to remove the guys name & Company YES I have read your story - forum has a policy of no personal info.

Doxing him may not be the best way to go if you are seeking smooth interaction with his company.

Andy
- @Andybris2020

...and stated on an open forum could seriously complicate matters for the OP.
Watch your "P"s and "Q"s, Charlie.
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Yep 100% understandable he is peeved but don't want anything to come back and bite him.

The rest of the story and answers is all good info for anyone else in same position and what can be done and the results/outcome.
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Getting a few dates correct here:

It was March 25, 2020 when Vietnam effectively closed the borders to new tourist traffic (meaning no new tourist visas).

So any offer of a tourist visa after that was bogus.

Even spouses (of Vietnamese citizens) with 5 year VECs were denied entry into Vietnam after that.

So it seems this was an attempt to get an expert visa (the only other possibility) and the OP didn't qualify for it.

That was something that could have easily been accomplished prior to the main border closures (with an agency sponsored business visa) but was now much more difficult, requiring a phony certification of being an expert.

Then, on July 1st, 2020, the new visa regulations were supposed to go into effect, but new tourist visas we're not being issued, so those changes are now the law but not yet put into effect as long as eVisas remain the only tourist option.

The next major development was the election of late May, 2021.

Suddenly, agency sponsored business visas could no longer be extended in fear of what faction might be in charge afterwards.

So by the time July, 2021 rolled around, everyone knew that the only way you could get into the country was on an illegal visa.

There is someone posting in this thread who bought his way in during the lockdowns on one of those illegal visas.

So that's what we are talking about:

A situation where legal spouses of Vietnamese citizens with legal VECs couldn't reenter the country and be with their legitimate children, while those who gambled with the right criminal visa agent could, as long as they had enough cash.

It's highly ironic that one of those people who is calling for the agent to be reported is someone who successfully bought an illegal visa himself (Colin and I both called him on it at the time).

It is totally ludicrous to think that any government official is going to take any action in this case, except perhaps blacklisting the OP when the full story comes out about his attempt to utilize a bogus visa scheme.

That's me being compassionate, since I was forced to leave the country as a result of the May, 2021 crackdown on agency sponsored business visas.
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Tks for the backstory, I just thought the doxing was not a great idea, even more so now.
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Agents are a protected species. Immigration police are not going to cut off the hand that feeds them.

A guy got caught several years ago at Saigon airport with a visa that was never registered with police. The holder of the visa got slogged 800 bucks, the agent....nothing.
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"...I don't have a Degree, so work would be difficult. I was teaching english in Vitenam for 3 months in 2018, but I didn't need a Degree for that type of VISA... "

As Paul Harvey would say...
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NO authorities here will go after a scammer, except if you pay the police to do so; as for courts, against a Viêt, you will always be wrong.
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@IamCharlie Contact me privately.

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@IamCharlie Contact me privately.

- @Nick0809
Fight scammer with scammer?
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@IamCharlie Contact me privately.

- @Nick0809

No introduction, why would anyone contact a total stranger?
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@OceanBeach92107 Really not asking for government or police involvement. And already confirmed what I did was wrong and was my own fault. And I had my reasons, don't expect you to understand

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@OceanBeach92107 Really not asking for government or police involvement. And already confirmed what I did was wrong and was my own fault. And I had my reasons, don't expect you to understand

- @IamCharlie
I'll admit my replies were somewhat cold-hearted, but they were intended more for your audience than as a direct challenge to you.

One person being very supportive of you in this thread is himself guilty of entering the country on an illegal visa that same year, so it seemed appropriate to balance his call for justice.

Also, it's my habit to always keep future, casual readers of a thread in mind.

When someone considering living in Vietnam comes across this thread, I think it's important for them to understand the circumstances you faced, as well as seeing things from the POV of the "scammer".

Based on what you've written, it sounds as if your "scammer" was as well-intentioned as you, but probably got squeezed by the crisis of the times and might actually be hoping to make things right with you, as soon as possible.

I'm just saying, legal action would almost certainly prove fruitless and attempting to shame him would probably lessen whatever small chance you might have of getting anything back from him.

I truly do hope you are able to turn things around and that this most recent attempt to gain a Work Permit is both successful and legal.
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