Just returned from Panama City

I lived in the East Bay for many years, in Alameda, and Piedmont, CA  We became aware of the growing problems in CA in the late 90's and finally relocated to Hawaii.  It was lovely there, much  nicer than Panama, but after 7 years we realized that the mainland offered many things we enjoy that living 2600 miles out in the ocean cannot provide.  Living in Panama was quite similar to  that, but not nearly as safe or clean.

We then tried NC, VA, SC, and the state of WA.  Each had their positives, but in our estimation had far too many negatives.  We spent months doing research about Panama before we decided to take a 3 week trip.  Ultimately we found most of the positives written about Panama to be deceptive, and written in great exaggeration, particularly within the realm of real estate.  Quality of construction in Panama is horrid.  There is no comparable building code such as within the states of the USA.

We lived in Panama City for six months in 2011 (Punta Patilla mostly), and suspect that the longer you are in Panama, the more you will discover much that is lacking for someone used to the comforts and conveniences of the USA.  I wish someone had been more honest with us prior to our move to Panama, as I am trying to be with you... we met many expats there who felt the same way, but who felt stuck there since they had shipped all their belongings, bought a home, etc.  Fortunately, although we had all of our belongings packed, we put them into storage and wisely decided not to ship them to Panama until we found a home.

We did a short visit of a few weeks prior to moving there, and the 'charm' of Panama lasted throughout the visit, although it did serve to eliminate the NW part of the country as a place we could live and be happy.

Please do yourself a favor and live there for at least 6 months before you decide to relocate.  It takes a while before you become aware of the many important things in your life that will no longer be available to you.

Panama City has phenomenal shopping, but there is so  much more to life than that.  )

Good luck!

Thank you, drhank! We know it's going to be a challenge and we have put a lot of thought into this decision. Boy do I LOVE Hawaii! I wanted my husband to get a job in Oahu but instead we have been led to Panama. I foresee living in Panama for a time frame that will eventually lead us to Colombia or somewhere in South America. For the time being, I will have to make ends meet and make the best out of what we have.

We have decided to put stuff in storage and taking some furniture to make our home, feel like home! How did you like living in Punta Patilla? Any other recommendations? I certainly appreciate your honesty.

Thanks!

Lisa

Punta Patilla is a very nice area and conveniently located... but the infrastructure of Panama remained a problem.  Be careful:  There are holes in the sidewalks of Panama City large enough to fall into at various places in Panama City -- none of which were repaired during the 6 months we lived there.

Police are corrupt.  If you get into an auto accident with a Panamanian citizen, regardless of what has happened, you will be found at fault.  This will be difficult to believe, but it is a verifiable fact:  An expat couple were 't-boned' on the Panamanian Hwy by a Panamanian citizen who was driving while intoxicated.  Not only was the expat driver found at fault (ridiculous), they had to flee the country because they were charged with some degree of murder which would have led to imprisonment.

In the US we take many freedoms for granted.  You will  not enjoy many of the freedoms in Panama that you are used to in the USA.  Also, as a woman, you will no doubt be treated with disrespect when you are out without your husband or other male escort, unless you pass as a local.

Good luck...
drhank

@drhank: One they I believe you have failed to realize, Panama IS NOT the United States. Never has been, never will be. You will find the same no matter where you go around the world if you are comparing infrastructure and services to the US. The only places that are equal or better than the US are in 1st world countries. Get used to it or just move to Florida like the rest of the retirees in the US.

what type freedoms will we lose? Also, were you there working or retired?

Among the issues I consider grave in Panama, the murder rate per 100,000 people is more  than 5 times higher in Panama than that of the USA.  It's bad enough in the USA, but the rate in Panama is truly alarming.  Yes, I know of Detroit, D.C., etc., but the above compares national statistics.

No need for expats living in Panama to write and tell me  how wonderful it is there.  We experienced it, and yes, there are some aspects that are quite nice.  But when it is represented as a 'cheaper' place to live than the USA, that is just plain false.  There are many locales in the USA that are much safer and nicer than Panama, where it costs less to live, and costs less to purchase a better constructed home.

My intent is not to put down Panama; merely to relate the truth as my wife and I experienced it for six months.

As it happens, we now live in central Florida... with far less density than experienced at Valle Escondido, the Coronado beach area, and/or Panama City.  We lived in each of these areas during our 6 month visit.  Our lot here is within a gated, 24 hour guarded community and is nearly an acre in size, and fronts upon a lovely private lake.  Our home is 4100 s.f., custom built, with many amenities, and yet cost far less than homes that were not nearly as nice in each of the 3 communities cited, as well as Costa Pedasi.  Don't knock Florida unless you know the facts.  It is far more than a state of retired, elderly people.  We have far more to do and see, just in the Tampa Bay Area than all of Panama.

If prior residents of the USA no longer like it, I suppose it is good that they left.

Thank you for your response.. It is puzzling that I see all these homes on the internet and one can be for 70k and be on the beach etc etc then the next one is 2 million and on the beach as well I find this off the beach, too. I found Houses/Hostiles with acreage for 100k and mountain retreats fro 1 million. Also, I have posted on this and many forums trying to get expat families meaning with kids living there but have not rec'd 1 back or response. I read these comments from bloggers or on forums that most mention expat communities so I assume there out there but not active on any forums unless they have no kids which seems strange. We are struggling the whole expat community thing and if that is just a another version of the cookie cutter life that is more than available here in US.Then you see where you can buy info "really" through International Living and some individuals..in these times of information at your finger tip..puzzling.
Hopefully we will soon hear from expats with families as we really think that may help but we will see. Just hard to make decision on even going to look with all the different info. I know "go see for yourself" but really though the forums etc would help not sure they are though. We never considered the city but Coronado and Pedsi are on the list was housing that bad there and was it crowded?

sorry for typos Pedasi and the others lol

The general quality of construction is poor.  Even among the new luxury towers, many flaws can be found.  And in Panama, the recourse is not as in the USA.  It seems in Panama, once you've bought it, it's yours... particularly if you are not Panamanian.

I made offers on properties, each time contingent upon an engineer's inspection.  The results of the inspections confirmed my fears related to the poor construction.

I spoke with contractors there about this problem.  Most of them blamed it upon the lack of availability of skilled workers.  Poor excuse.

In one situation, the engineer pulled me aside and privately told me that he would not be able to include all the things wrong in  his report because the penthouse condo being inspected was owned by a powerful attorney, and that it would 'cost' him if he provided everything in writing -- but he did point out to me many things that were not on the final written report.  While his company usually provided repairs based upon the estimate provided with the report, he told me in that case that they would not be interested in doing the repairs, because, he said, "The total cost would be more than double than what we have put in our report."  Evidently this is common in Panama.

My wife put it this way:  Panama just isn't ready for prime time.  It is a 3rd world country that wears the costume of a 2nd world country, with 1st world shopping centers in Panama City.

I beg to differ with drhank, I just returned from 3 weeks in Panama. No, it isn't the USA, but we had no issues at all. The police were always courteous and helpful at all times. Yes, the traffic is horrible, but I rented a Toyota Yaris and fell in with the crowd with no problem. We found areas in Congrejo that were very nice and around $750-1000 per month w/AC and furnished. We left after 8 days and traveled to El Valle Anton for 4 days (beautiful area but expensive to live). Then on to Boquette. All in the 750-1000 range for houses/apartments. Found 2 bedroom unfurnished nice house with carport and AC in David for $275.

Don't know why drhank seems so bitter but all over Panama to include Colon, we had no problems. Felt safer in Panama than in SC, USA. Our 29 y.o. son decided to stay, He rented fully,  mean FULLY furnished (bed linens, dishes, pot, pans, towels, TV, utilities, etc.) in Alto Boquette for $425 per month with no long term lease.

As for protestant church, we came across a couple in Panama City area, was one called Maranatha years ago that catered to Americans, don't know if it still exists.

Hope this helps somewhat, we plan on returning in January 14 and rent for about 6 months in Boquette area.

Not the least bit "bitter;" merely reporting the facts as we experienced Panama.  We rented while we were there, but our primary purpose was to find a home to purchase -- that is my emphasis.  The cost of r.e. in Panama is disproportionate for what is provided.  Evidently r.e. was a bargain prior to 2006, but since then has become inflated. 

Forgot to note in last message:  We read four books on Panama and much of the material from Independent Living prior to our 1st trip.  We learned in Panama that the authors of the 4 books each have significant financial interests in Panama.  The books are inaccurately biased, and contained a great amount of exaggerated information which is putting it kindly; much of their info consisted of absolute misrepresentations.  IL is about selling real estate and as such paints an artificial glowing portrait of Panama; found their info also exaggerated.

There is an old adage that states, "There's a butt for every seat."  Hence, of course there are people who will relocate to Panama and absolutely love it.  However, we met expats that felt 'stuck' with the property they had purchased and could not re-sell. 

Someone asked if we worked while in Panama.  No, we did not.  At the time the government would not allow foreign doctors to work in Panama.  It is my understanding that this has changed and allegedly it is much easier to obtain the documentation required to work in Panama.

IMO, the cost-of-living in Panama can be (but not necessarily) lower than in the U.S. because most people adjust their way of living when they get to Panama.  They rent/buy a small, basic house in Panama that they would never have considered in the U.S.  They quit bailing their nephew/son out of jail  and paying for his lawyer every time he gets in trouble.  They quit supporting their local church every time it wants to build a new administration building.  They typically travel less, buy practical cars (for cash) not luxury cars over time (as well as get by with one car, not two). They buy practical low-priced clothes and not designer fashion clothes.   They forego expensive dinners for home cooking of basic staples or eating out at lower-priced restaurants. 

As others have pointed out, these same savings are possible while staying in the U.S.  People just are not disciplined enough to commit to changing their lifestyle and fight back all the temptations and influences they face and because we expect a higher and better lifestyle in the U.S. (and therefore at a higher cost) than we would accept in Panama or elsewhere.

SawMan, you make a number of excellent points!  Yours is the most honest recitation re: lower cost of living Panama that I have seen.

SawMan, I don't mind cutting back and going back to the basics. I still plan on tithing to my church and living a life that is different than the US. I'm a bit apprehensive on purchasing any property at this time so we will rent for the time being. We are committed to this move and I will post a version of my experience. I will NEVER compare Panama to the US, because it will never be the US.

Kerly5, We will be an expat family with kids and I hope to be some help through our experience. We are moving to Panama Oct 2013 with our young son. We are visiting for another week, next week to find a home and international school for our boy.

Thank you all for your honesty. I understand we all have different needs and perspectives on this which I welcome! As for our family, we will make the best of this move and happy about our decision. We know it won't be easy but look forward to visiting South America and expanding our cultural knowledge of Panama!

lisagpatino wrote:

SawMan, I don't mind cutting back and going back to the basics. I still plan on tithing to my church and living a life that is different than the US. I'm a bit apprehensive on purchasing any property at this time so we will rent for the time being. We are committed to this move and I will post a version of my experience. I will NEVER compare Panama to the US, because it will never be the US.

These were only examples. My point is that people can live on less in Panama, but for reasons more to do with how they live in the U.S. and what they will typically do without.  Good luck and I look forward to hearing more about your experience!

My short experience in Panama was very positive. Yes, it is not the US but that was the allure of going there. We found the people helpful and polite. The women are beautiful and I assume women find the men the same. I grew up in NYC and I really think that helps with the whole "diversity thing". But, it is limited like most places that most can afford in the US. We found  it vey affordable.   So could I live there? Yes.  Would I buy there? Depends! The bad thing about purchasing RE anywhere is that you are at the mercy of the market. Cant pack up and take it with you when your tastes change.   I lived in Hawaii for many years.  A comparable apt, compared to a one bdr on Balboa ave would cost about 600k plus 800-1000 monthly fee.  Add about 200k for un obstructed ocean view. So, moral  of the story is there are always trade offs. My spouse grew up in HI and couldn't get away fast enough.  Other friends live in Hawaii and the high cost of living has them miserable. So, if you are on a budget, want to live large for less, are not intimidated by people who may not share you skin tone or language, love good looking people, like loud music and occasional strange smells, enjoy cheap drinks, can put up with horny crude men but like well built women, try it out.  And don't forget to go to Habana Panama and learn a few dance steps.  Great way to meet people and dance off the daily frustrations you may encounter.

Wow, lots of topics in this thread! I will try to address some of the points without writing a novel

lisagpatino - http://www.panamaforreal.com/  Visit this site and talk with

Chris. He lives in Panama City and has kids, so he knows quite a bit about schools. He is also developing an excellent website with all sorts of info so he's a good one to keep an eye on.

Panama City is not like the rest of Panama. It's busy, expensive, full of traffic, and other downsides along with the advantages. Many people there seem more stressed and unhappy than others in other areas. we found the traffic to be difficult even before they started the metro construction so hopefully the metro will help, but I don't expect it to solve all the traffic problems.

Places with a lot of expats also seem to be more expensive and different than most other parts of Panama. We are living here for about 1/3 of what we needed in Sarasota, FL but we live in David, in a Panamanian neighborhood, comfortable house, one of the better neighborhoods $385/mo rent. We also save a lot on food, water, trash, phone, internet, car insurance... it all adds up to considerable savings for us.

I think if you look like a rich gringo, don't know much or any Spanish, don't know what things are supposed to cost, you are much more likely to be taken advantage of. It's human nature to use a situation to your advantage if you can.

Yes, there are problems with infrastructure here - holes in sidewalks, roads the need repair, etc. But, they are working hard all the time to improve things. Remember that Panama is a relatively young country. It wasn't that long ago that they had a dictator, and the canal didn't belong to them. They've only had less than 15 years to turn things around. 

I am a woman and I have never been treated with any disrespect. None of my younger and more attractive friends have said they felt disrespected either. We came with my 93 yr old mother in law and she was treated with far more respect than in the US.

We moved here from SW Florida and feel safer here than we did there. Of course there are problem areas to avoid, like anywhere. There were places in Sarasota we didn't go either. Here, it seems like the few crimes are of opportunity - someone sees a chance to steal something. But, there is security everywhere so you can park your car and go shopping without worry. The people in our neighborhood all know each other and keep an eye on each other. I have never felt unsafe around town even when alone.

Be very careful where you get your information!!!  Do NOT believe the hype from International Living and other such websites, books, and seminars. They are trying to sell you something. There is no paradise here. It is a wonderful country but it's real life. Many things are different here. It doesn't work for everyone.

Also, I would recommend that you live here for even a year or more before you even consider buying. And, be very very very very careful if you buy something before it is built!! Construction here is different, standards are different, and unless you want to be on site every day overseeing things, you will probably not get something you expected, or when you expected it. I've heard a lot of bad stories of things going terribly wrong. I'd much rather buy something already built so at least you know what you are getting. Even among Panamanians they have to be careful. There is a new house going up in our neighborhood and the owner is on site every day to see how things are going, and this is not unusual. (but, I had to do this also in the US when I built a house, and even then things didn't go according to plan)

This is not the US and things are not the same here, but in my opinion, many things are far better. Thankfully I have no experience with the police other than them being very kind and helpful if ask them a question, or when they are patrolling our neighborhood. I have found the people here to be friendly, kind, respectful, generous, helpful, and a real pleasure. As I said, different parts of Panama are different, and this doesn't work for everyone. Things are different in Panama. This is one reason I love it, but everyone has to figure out what they need for themselves.

kristc99 wrote:

Wow, lots of topics in this thread! I will try to address some of the points without writing a novel

lisagpatino - http://www.panamaforreal.com/  Visit this site and talk with

Chris. He lives in Panama City and has kids, so he knows quite a bit about schools. He is also developing an excellent website with all sorts of info so he's a good one to keep an eye on.

Panama City is not like the rest of Panama. It's busy, expensive, full of traffic, and other downsides along with the advantages. Many people there seem more stressed and unhappy than others in other areas. we found the traffic to be difficult even before they started the metro construction so hopefully the metro will help, but I don't expect it to solve all the traffic problems.

Places with a lot of expats also seem to be more expensive and different than most other parts of Panama. We are living here for about 1/3 of what we needed in Sarasota, FL but we live in David, in a Panamanian neighborhood, comfortable house, one of the better neighborhoods $385/mo rent. We also save a lot on food, water, trash, phone, internet, car insurance... it all adds up to considerable savings for us.

I think if you look like a rich gringo, don't know much or any Spanish, don't know what things are supposed to cost, you are much more likely to be taken advantage of. It's human nature to use a situation to your advantage if you can.

Yes, there are problems with infrastructure here - holes in sidewalks, roads the need repair, etc. But, they are working hard all the time to improve things. Remember that Panama is a relatively young country. It wasn't that long ago that they had a dictator, and the canal didn't belong to them. They've only had less than 15 years to turn things around. 

I am a woman and I have never been treated with any disrespect. None of my younger and more attractive friends have said they felt disrespected either. We came with my 93 yr old mother in law and she was treated with far more respect than in the US.

We moved here from SW Florida and feel safer here than we did there. Of course there are problem areas to avoid, like anywhere. There were places in Sarasota we didn't go either. Here, it seems like the few crimes are of opportunity - someone sees a chance to steal something. But, there is security everywhere so you can park your car and go shopping without worry. The people in our neighborhood all know each other and keep an eye on each other. I have never felt unsafe around town even when alone.

Be very careful where you get your information!!!  Do NOT believe the hype from International Living and other such websites, books, and seminars. They are trying to sell you something. There is no paradise here. It is a wonderful country but it's real life. Many things are different here. It doesn't work for everyone.

Also, I would recommend that you live here for even a year or more before you even consider buying. And, be very very very very careful if you buy something before it is built!! Construction here is different, standards are different, and unless you want to be on site every day overseeing things, you will probably not get something you expected, or when you expected it. I've heard a lot of bad stories of things going terribly wrong. I'd much rather buy something already built so at least you know what you are getting. Even among Panamanians they have to be careful. There is a new house going up in our neighborhood and the owner is on site every day to see how things are going, and this is not unusual. (but, I had to do this also in the US when I built a house, and even then things didn't go according to plan)

This is not the US and things are not the same here, but in my opinion, many things are far better. Thankfully I have no experience with the police other than them being very kind and helpful if ask them a question, or when they are patrolling our neighborhood. I have found the people here to be friendly, kind, respectful, generous, helpful, and a real pleasure. As I said, different parts of Panama are different, and this doesn't work for everyone. Things are different in Panama. This is one reason I love it, but everyone has to figure out what they need for themselves.

Excellent post. Nice to hear something positive and realistic.  I encountered the same things along with the traffic and stress of the city.

Wow..I too flew into BWi last night from Panama. Stayed a few days in the city and headed to Veraguas for the rest of the trip. You are correct, the traffic was CRAZY and my stress levels went way down as i left the city towards el interior....looks like its gonna be a very hot "verano!"

Cheers!

H