Money, health, hapiness (in or also out of Hungary)

A very very difficult balance between the above.
Just to additional topics seperately comparing Turkey (Alanya) and Hungary (Heviz area)

Money (and health)
-Taxes in Hungary are absolutely fine, in Turkey a bit unclear, bottom line Hungary is probably more fine.
Properties in Turkey much better priced (we probably even sold (and too early) our property in Hungary). Nevertheless the surplus will allow us to live us for some many years.
-Markets and supermarkets incredibly priced to compare with Hungary. Example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJkF6YeyjSE

-Living in an apartment of course there is a max of EUR 50 maintenance fee pm, in Hungary repairs and gardener will be exceed quite a bit.
-Somebody has to pay soon or later by the other subsidies (most of us not be eligible), family, low rates for mortgage, cars for large families, .... (paying good very well to dealt with by eg inflation, but also with a new government by taxes on pensioners)
-Cigarettes, I smoke 2.5 packages per day, compared with eg Turkey with give us a few hundred per month (Of course I am terrible to do so, but that is what is life (for society me dying from a heart attack will still be beneficial, even lung cancer and not going to a hospital is not too bad))
-Restaurants amazing will not give us a big difference (in Turkey (Alanya) a slightly even higher more expensive, but service in Turkey and additions are better,
-Many people say alcohol is expensive in Turkey but actually it is just slightly higher than in Hungary (probably Russians making the references)
-Buses in Hungary for pensioners are free, but difficult to beat prices in Turkey (a bus ride of 15 km only EUR 0.30 is not too bad).
-Taxis are much much lower then in Hungary (even if Hungary is not excessive)
-Healthcare, in Turkey more expensive (2x or 3 x) but much more modern (and people are speaking English)
-Internet slightly more expensive and slightly slower (in general)
-Whereas healthcare in Heviz in outstanding, especially for dental care, it is very expensive (normal GPs are fine though), in Alanya dental care seem to be famous again (we have to see). Also many normal healthcare with GPs some to be good (personally I prefer experience over education though, but that is just me)
-I think I could probably mention more, but I just stop

Hapiness:
-Living in a city (apartment) will be very different from village life, both pluses and minuses,
-Both me and my wife are slightly depressed by not having our animals (dogs/cats) anymore
-On the other side just have a quick walk to supermarket, restaurant, not being concerned on garden or house will be life easier (and less expensive)
-We have to consider that if getting older, living an apartment is probably easier rather than living in a rural big house.

Lets see how it goes and I will keep you up to date.

All of the items in the title is extremely important and to find a balance is not always easy to find.

No doubt I have enjoyed my 7 years in Hungary, BUT

You really can not compare 2 countries, Even in the UK, it's hard to compare England, Scotland and Wales.

Have you already moved out of Hungary?

For Marilyn,

I do not know if it is for SIM or CDW, but CDW actually did (or bought in Turkey).

cdw057 wrote:

For Marilyn,

I do not know if it is for SIM or CDW, but CDW actually did (or bought in Turkey).

That's interesting.
So far how do you like it there?
How's the shopping, food and culture working out for you both?
Is it hard to communicate or are there many English speakers in your area?

Actually communicating there is much easier than it is here in Hungary, English, German are widely spoken. Of course mentality is a bit different, but very focussed on foreigners (which could be good or bad).
Just a small story from our property chase. (By the way my wife and me stay in a 4 (I think 2 or 3 ) star hotel including breakfast for EUR 35 EUR for us together per night).
Anyhow, my wife did not enough xxx things for her dressing living and I saw a laundry accross the street and decided to go there with my plastic bag there at 7.00 AM, they were not open yet, but the barber next was, I did not shave anyhow for 10 days, so I came in (the guy did not speak any other languagues (quite strange for that area, but no issue for me).
He shaved me with all the extras and my wife was quite happy, I was charged just below EUR 3 (later I was told I was overcharged, but for the result I think it was quite good I think).
I just showed the showed the bag with washing to the guy and pointed my finger to his laundry neighbour and showed to me that all was be fine(ie dealing with it) and left things with him). (The laundry (including some additional shirts from me) was treated (according to my wife) has been treated excellently (ironing included). (In Luxembourg we probably would have paid EUR 70, in Alanya EUR 5 (including very polite staff).
Made a big impression in terms of client service.

It did not even come to my mind if people would take it (then again what is interesting).

Still (even if overcharged) it make a good impression to have such a smooth dealing with a situation.

By the way in Hungary I already like that shops and restaurants open early, even much so in Alanya.
Please do not get me wrong, all places and type of housing have pluses and minuses, our pluses in Hungary have been and are plentiful and I will especially miss the pluses.

SimCityAT wrote:

You really can not compare 2 countries, Even in the UK, it's hard to compare England, Scotland and Wales.

You can't even compare Basildon and Barnsley.

Regardless of comparisons, small is generally cheap.
If happiness is a major goal, minimalism is worth a thought.

Bhutan
In creating the Gross National Happiness Index, Bhutan sought to create a measurement tool that would be useful for policymaking and create policy incentives for the government, NGOs and businesses of Bhutan to increase GNH.

Fred wrote:
SimCityAT wrote:

You really can not compare 2 countries, Even in the UK, it's hard to compare England, Scotland and Wales.

You can't even compare Basildon and Barnsley.

Regardless of comparisons, small is generally cheap.
If happiness is a major goal, minimalism is worth a thought.

Bhutan
In creating the Gross National Happiness Index, Bhutan sought to create a measurement tool that would be useful for policymaking and create policy incentives for the government, NGOs and businesses of Bhutan to increase GNH.

Basildon vs Barnsley?   I think there are other examples which might work in a closer way.  What about say, Blackpool and Brighton?  Both seaside towns with tourism dependencies.  Both very diverse communities.

Incidentally I tried to go to Bhutan for the weekend.  It's not a joke.  I really did.  From Dhaka.  But it's almost impossible to go there without spending huge amounts of money.  In other words, don't bother going at all.  It's just not worth the money. So definitely a decrease in GNH for someone there who could have benefited from my tourism expenditure.

fluffy2560 wrote:

But it's almost impossible to go there without spending huge amounts of money.

Last time I checked, the visa alone was like 200USD/day/person?

atomheart wrote:
fluffy2560 wrote:

But it's almost impossible to go there without spending huge amounts of money.

Last time I checked, the visa alone was like 200USD/day/person?

Yes, exactly and the hotels were expensive too.   

I mean, why go there if you could go somewhere like Nepal?

cdw057 wrote:

A very very difficult balance between the above.
Just to additional topics seperately comparing Turkey (Alanya) and Hungary (Heviz area)

....

Since you are leaving us, I was just wondering what your view of today's economic news from Turkey.

Erdogan has lost his marbles and is wiping out everyone's savings in Turkish lire and getting close to collapsing the economy. 

Looks like there will be civil unrest.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Erdogan has lost his marbles and is wiping out everyone's savings in Turkish lire and getting close to collapsing the economy.

https://m.investing.com/news/economy/tu … le-2687697

That seems less than wise.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Looks like there will be civil unrest.

If the situation is as bad as the reports say, I would imagine more than a few people will be a little miffed.

Something for expats in that county to keep an eye on, especially if they have money in local banks.

Fred wrote:
fluffy2560 wrote:

Erdogan has lost his marbles and is wiping out everyone's savings in Turkish lire and getting close to collapsing the economy.

https://m.investing.com/news/economy/tu … le-2687697

That seems less than wise.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Looks like there will be civil unrest.

If the situation is as bad as the reports say, I would imagine more than a few people will be a little miffed.

Something for expats in that county to keep an eye on, especially if they have money in local banks.

Yes, exactly.  I thought I saw a reference to some riots starting up but I couldn't find it again. 

I reckon it'll mean everyone demanding payment in EUR or USD - anything but Lire.

Owning property there will be a nightmare.  Government will want transactions in Lire, not EUR or USD.  Reminds me of the rampant inflation in Russia 30+ years ago.

P.s. I got this on my alerts:

"As of 23 November 2021, protests to denounce the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) and high inflation rates are ongoing in the capital Ankara and Istanbul city. In Istanbul, protestors have gathered in Taksim square following demonstration in other areas of the city. Security forces have cordoned off the area, prompting localized traffic disruptions. In Ankara, related protests have materialized in the Cankaya district. Security forces may intervene to disperse anti-government protests using tear gas or water cannons."

Small and peaceful so far ... unless anyone knows different

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/worl … lira-crash

Perhaps this should be moved to the Turkey section.

Fred wrote:

Small and peaceful so far ... unless anyone knows different

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/worl … lira-crash

Perhaps this should be moved to the Turkey section.

I don't know what Erdogan thought the result would be.

Hard to say if it was Turkey section material as mainly interested to know economics of moving from Hungary to there whilst the country is in turmoil..

This might to be moved to the Turkish section, but I am afraid inflation is also emerging a topic for Hungary. For those having savings in USD or EUR it might not be too much of an issue, but as for Hungary (after elections (whoever wins) will be some nasty messages I am pretty sure.
Some has to be done, giving all these hand-outs over the last few years (Corona linked or not) will come with a cost.
Of course many voters the direct advantages (car/house/taxes), but somebody has to pay.
I think as long Orban is in charge he will not consider taxes on pensioners (he would not dare to), BUT...

cdw057 wrote:

This might to be moved to the Turkish section, but I am afraid inflation is also emerging a topic for Hungary. For those having savings in USD or EUR it might not be too much of an issue, but as for Hungary (after elections (whoever wins) will be some nasty messages I am pretty sure.
Some has to be done, giving all these hand-outs over the last few years (Corona linked or not) will come with a cost.
Of course many voters the direct advantages (car/house/taxes), but somebody has to pay.
I think as long Orban is in charge he will not consider taxes on pensioners (he would not dare to), BUT...

Pensioners in HU have just received a payout.  Obviously an OV election sweetener.  Not that much but enough for them to notice.

Inflation here is about 6% but 20% in Turkey.  Difference in Turkey is Erdogan is not using interest rates as a curb on the money supply.  He's doing exactly the opposite and he's therefore fueling inflation.  Here at least, they will recognise more traditional anti-inflation measures.  People in Turkey will go bonkers as their cash savings and cash assets plummet in real value.  It could bring Erdogan down but whoever followed would find serious difficulties getting it back on track.

For sure there are drivers around that will have had significant impact on borrowing.  Debt here in Hungary is increasing- presumably COVID related spending. 

My question is if any of this figures in your move to Turkey?

Tricky country Turkey, I did consider Georgia as well. Having said that, most of my assets are in EUR so financially it should be quite fine, having said that a (hyper) inflation is not good for stability of society (and Erdogan will be the scape goat (rightfully I think), Still Turkey will not be the most stable country for the coming 10 years (NATO and EU have a VERY high interest to keep Turkey stable and will pay direct or indirect I think)
In Hungary inflation is a good way to pay for all of the hand-outs, would be good (for Orban) if inflation is high. (Who will pay and if through inflation others can be blamed (but it helps in softening spending).

cdw057 wrote:

Tricky country Turkey, I did consider Georgia as well. Having said that, most of my assets are in EUR so financially it should be quite fine, having said that a (hyper) inflation is not good for stability of society (and Erdogan will be the scape goat (rightfully I think), Still Turkey will not be the most stable country for the coming 10 years (NATO and EU have a VERY high interest to keep Turkey stable and will pay direct or indirect I think)
In Hungary inflation is a good way to pay for all of the hand-outs, would be good (for Orban) if inflation is high. (Who will pay and if through inflation others can be blamed (but it helps in softening spending).

Yes, major interest in NATO, EU and others keeping Turkey on the right side.  Erdogan is an unstable person who isn't helping with his economics.

I don't know if they are increasing money supply (quantitative easing) here or not.  Obviously printing money will just make inflation worse.  The pensioners pay off is a short term bubble to last until after the election.  Worst case is we see austerity measures if economic growth cannot fill the hole. If there is austerity, it'll lead to a brain drain. Hungary always had that but it'll be worse with a prolonged recession in the EU post-COVID.

One interesting thing we saw yesterday as we drove around was the number of empty office buildings.  These seem to be increasing.  Presumably more people working from home.  Yet I see buildings going up around Budapest, including the new athletics stadium.

I have been pessimistic on stockmarkets and economies over the last 20 years or so, just me.
However clearly in Turkey there the situation might be more serious then in other countries, although so far Erdogan has done well and he might even consider early elections before it is too late.

Yes excessive inflation creates the risk of civil unrest or at least big discontent (by the way to a certain extent in Hungary as well).
Even if the policy is might not be as I would do (decreasing interest, creating (I must say) inventive backdoors to increase it anyhow (you will read about it)). I would not be surprised Orban would like to same thing, but I do not think allowed in EU.
Still inflation by itselves suit us quite well, of course prices for eg alcohol and cigarettes are set (typically once per year), with the TRY decreasing 40% per year, things are cheaper by the end of the year.

End of 2021, cigarettes at a certain stage EUR 1.20 per package a 1 L Jameson EUR 20 (In Hungary very very discount prices EUR 28)
If the unrest, riots aside, financially it suits the situation quite well.

Some things we not note from the outside is that Turkey let people at work (even if salary is very very low). In Hungary there is no problem from un-employment, in Turkey there is, Millions of Syrians (partially paid for by the EU), but also eg Azerdbjan people who try to see Turkey as promised land.I would say around EUR 10 mln migrants (voluntary or not)

Examples In Hungary there are dustbins to throw away things (notably cigarette stubs etc), in Turkey a no go for the bins, you are supposed to throw your small garbage on the street and people will clean a few times per day (streets even cleaner then in Hungary I would say).
For normal garbage there are no normal bins you have to fill yourselves, there are a few BIG bins every 100 m or so where you can dump your garbage, segregation apparently is done somewhere else. Cleaned at least once per day
Parking meters, NO way, you park your car whereever you want and an official come to write your number down, when you you are leave the official is supposed to run to you and charge for the time, if you have missed him there is a central "fine" database where you can settle via bank.
More examples, probably too bureaucratic, but it keeps people at work rather then having unemployment of 50%
Under circumstances I understand and I even support

One thing to note Turks loves their cats and dogs (but especially cats) everywhere food and water for them.
Small supermarkets with all types of fruits and vegs (very freak and cheap)
Butchers treat you like a king
My wife want happy with me to go every 10 days or so to a FULL shave (a bit to my dismay (takes 20 min) , very good and full treatment (including burning away small hairs and smells) EUR 3

So far the update, but bottom line I do not expect a revolution, there of course is a risk medium term, but the West also Russia both needs Turkey too much (so does dome of the Gulf states and Azerdbedjan) Financially and other support Turkey is well set

cdw057 wrote:

I have been pessimistic on stockmarkets and economies over the last 20 years or so, just me.
However clearly in Turkey there the situation might be more serious then in other countries, although so far Erdogan has done well and he might even consider early elections before it is too late.

Yes excessive inflation creates the risk of civil unrest or at least big discontent (by the way to a certain extent in Hungary as well).
Even if the policy is might not be as I would do (decreasing interest, creating (I must say) inventive backdoors to increase it anyhow (you will read about it)). I would not be surprised Orban would like to same thing, but I do not think allowed in EU.
Still inflation by itselves suit us quite well, of course prices for eg alcohol and cigarettes are set (typically once per year), with the TRY decreasing 40% per year, things are cheaper by the end of the year.

Has Erdogan done well?  He's unconventional to say the least.  His latest thing is to compensate people for currency losses in TRY (Turkish Lire). 

He's going to have to buy TRY to pay for it or he's going to have to expand the money supply to compensate leading to....further inflation. 

Things might seem cheaper but they aren't really, it's just a lag in the system.   Local prices will keep on increasing to compensate.  It cannot go on.  People will resort to barter if the TRY is not worth the paper it's printed on.   Or they will just use USD and EUR.  Anything but TRY.    And let's not even discuss imports - all based in reserve  currencies.

It's not like we haven't been here before - Hungary, Wiemar, Zimbabwe, Russia.   Turkey is going to go the same way.

I have heard stories about people having wheelbarrals full of Hungarian Pengos and still it wasn't enought to purchase a loaf of bread.
I personally bug the heck out of my husband to buy barter supplies if not silver or gold.
If I was in the US I'd already have gold bars hidden away.
Here in HU it's not so easy to move gld bars here and there. Try getting through airport security with them.
Guess you can't eat a bar of gold so in reality even that is useless.
We had planned on buying crypto , even when it was up to $9,500 a coin. Now forget it, the bubble will brust soon enough plus securing your coins is a nightmare of wallets, codes and having one device that is used just for cryto, too many hackers.
I'm not worried, have enough beans put away to get through a long dry spell, after that I can't imgine a world I'd like to live in if there was mass chaos and control.
I can feel they are about to fold up the game board any time.
If stock markets crash, I know we will not be jumping out the window.
Health is far more important then wealth.
All the property and toys in the world can't safe you if you lose your health, let alone your mind.
Many people seem to be losing their minds lately, such fear in the air.
I have no fear but it's always a good idea to prep a bit.
Who knows your prep supplies might not even be for yourself, perhaps they will come in handy for someone in the future.

Election preparation for Orban, loads of hand-outs to voters (also (Hungarian) retirees), somebody has to pay though sooner or later. Same a bit situation in Turkey. The advantage for Hungary is that unemployment is (too) low and getting things a bit more expensive is probably not too bad, in my view however supporting employees and smaller companies is not the good time.
Me being a vey heavy smoker (and drinker) is a really one of the reasons to leave Hungary, apart from the annual salary increase of almost all with 10% or more (visualizes in prices of normal products).
What thing for sure is that expats are victims in a way, still i believe that expats spend the more then average to the Hungarian economy.

Still I was grateful of my time in Hungary, great and friendly people (in general).

cdw057 wrote:

Election preparation for Orban, loads of hand-outs to voters (also (Hungarian) retirees), somebody has to pay though sooner or later. Same a bit situation in Turkey. The advantage for Hungary is that unemployment is (too) low and getting things a bit more expensive is probably not too bad, in my view however supporting employees and smaller companies is not the good time.
Me being a vey heavy smoker (and drinker) is a really one of the reasons to leave Hungary, apart from the annual salary increase of almost all with 10% or more (visualizes in prices of normal products).
What thing for sure is that expats are victims in a way, still i believe that expats spend the more then average to the Hungarian economy.

Still I was grateful of my time in Hungary, great and friendly people (in general).

Yes, looks like refunds to all families for last year.  But as you say, just stacking up the debt really.

I have been monitoring the debt situation as I was sure that debt was increasing and indeed it has been.   It's gone up from 65% of GDP to 80%.    They need to finance that debt service - means tax increases .

All that splurging can only lead to austerity in the future and probably immediately after the election.  Unemployment will probably rise as the screws tighten.  Then it'll be a brain drain to other countries and a reduction in  population.  It's a similar story across the region - Croatia has lost 10% of its population in 10 years.   Bulgaria seems to be the worst on population loss.   If the Orban BS continues for 4 more years, I think that will add more to the exodus.

I think we expats do bring in l money and particularly we bring in chunks of foreign exchange which Hungary (or  in your case, Turkey particularly) can use to finance imports.

I think the number for a retirement increase for Hungarian seniors was 12%. Probably less the $50. a month plus they received one extra month of payments, had a 13 month year.
In the US we got a 6% increase this year.
Wow, buy me a cake!

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I think the number for a retirement increase for Hungarian seniors was 12%. Probably less the $50. a month plus they received one extra month of payments, had a 13 month year.
In the US we got a 6% increase this year.
Wow, buy me a cake!

All those modest increases will be sucked up by higher energy/gas prices.  I believe there are some price controls on staples - bread etc but it's not going to cut it when gas prices have massively increased in the past year.  Older people could freeze in their houses.

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