Uk To Spain NIE green card and Visa confusion

Looks like exactly what you need.
https://www.spainexpat.com/gestoria/ser … nsultation

thank you so so much!

There are actually CAB consultants on there, so that's the best/fastest way to get to them.

Firstly: An NIE is a fiscal ID number.  It provides no rights of residence.

The green paper certificate, which bears ones NIE, is proof that one has registered on the EU Citizens register and as such, permitted to stay longer than 90 days permanently in spain.

EU nationals still get the green certificate when they register. 

The first green certificate is valid for 5 years.  During that time one is not permitted to be absent from spain more than 6 months in any year.  After 5 years the green certificate can be renewed, although it automatically becomes permanent and then the holder can be absent from spain for up to 5 years without loosing the rights it conveys.

In the case of you Natalie, it appears you were in your first five years of residence. If so, then having left spain for longer than the 6 months permitted it is no longer valid. Thus it would appear you must follow the rules to apply for residence status as a non EU national.  If granted, the number on your TIE  (your permission to reside in spain) will be the NIE (that's the number) you had previously.

You will not have any advantages having been resident previously.

John, if I ever make it to Spain I'm buying you a caña or a coffee!
Your message was such a relief I was going crazy trying to cross reference different sources and getting so muddled so thank you so much for clearing it up it makes the next steps that much clearer.

I think going going autónomo is my only feasible option is there a website that clarifies exactly what it means to go autónomo? I want to try and work for a uk company in Spain but would this  be autónomo? Would autónomo be that you are not employed by anyone at all and you generate your own income entirely yourself so teaching English for example?The HR team for my current job in the UK said it was impossible to continue my remote  work in Spain since Brexit  and am wondering if this is an impossible option for me

X

FWIW, I may not have as much personal experience with the green residencia as John, but I have a lot of contact with CAB and other asesorias working with Brits to claim their residency under the WA. I wouldn't write off your rights to residence quite so fast.

Given the headache and expense and risk of going through the visa application process, it's almost certainly worth your time to discuss your case with an asesoria or attorney to see if there's a chance of building a case for residency based on the documentation you've described.

Ty

CAB agree with me

Take a look here:-

https://www.citizensadvice.org.es/faq/c … and-noneu/

Extract:
“ Non Permanent Resident

Your continuity of residence is not affected by:

temporary absences (less than 6 months a year)
longer absences for compulsory military service
one absence of 12 consecutive months, for important reasons such as pregnancy and childbirth, serious illness, study or vocational training, or a posting to another country.”

That article is from 2015.

Are you seriously suggesting she just give up without investigating further through someone who handles Brexit residency cases?

Thanks for the CAB link about resident status.

Is what CAB term a "non permanent resident" the same as a "non-fiscal resident?"

If "non permanent residence" status only allows for absences of less than 6 months then the non fiscal status would automatically be lost in the first year. Because being away from Spain for less than 6 months in one year means staying in Spain for more than 6 months in that year. Non fiscal status only allows you to stay for 183 days.

Residence is not the same as fiscal residence. The former refers to a right to be or live in a place while the latter refers to your obligations to pay taxes, which starts when you accrue more than 183 days in Spain (among other triggers).

So, yes, you surmise correctly that it's designed to let you stay if you're willing to pay taxes.

Valdan.

Permanently residence is acquired after one has had temporary residence for 5 years.

Hi. I understand its very confusing. Recently I have been trying to organise my nie renewal (a fairly straight forward  process) but finally I had to hire an attorney specialising in inmigration to help. I found it so complicated that it was the only way around the matter. May I suggest you do the same. Talk to someone in person who specialises in spanish inmigration law. Good luck.

Thank you so so much for your input  everyone really helpful  x

Btozer.   

May I suggest you may have experienced problems because you were using the wrong terminology “renew NIE.”


As I said above “ An NIE is a fiscal ID number.  It provides no rights of residence. “   It is never renewable.

Johncar

Re: Permanent residence.
That is understood, but for those who just wish to stay in Spain 180 days say during the winer months, but 100% of whose income is in UK and who naturally don't wish for all their already complicated UK interests and incomes to be taxed in Spain (most would rather eat light bulbs)..! There is no way of achieving this.

Thus the term "non fiscal residency" is actually a myth.. but costly for Spain in stopping a sizeable chunk of foreign income entering the country during less lucrative winter months..

Valdan

EU nationals can spend 180 days in spain in a year without necessarily becoming tax resident, albeit if they stay more than 90 days permanently they must apply for EU Citizen registration (green paper cert).  If they break the 180 into 2 X 90 they do not need to register.

Non EU nationals have never been able to do that.  U.K. nationals having become non EU must now comply with the rules applying to non EU nationals.

It appears some Brits are seeking an MO by which they can still be treated as they were prior to Brexit.  That is impossible and but the misunderstanding appears to be giving rise to questions ‘problems' which in reality do not exist.

And in passing:   When an EU national or a non EU national applies for residence status, they can have 100% of the income/assets required,  outside spain.   I have been resident for over 30 all my income is generated in U.K.

Hope that helps to clarify.

Johncar.

Many thanks for having the patience to clarify this. What I did not realise was that when I and others rushed to register before UK left the EU were actully applying for registration of our rights as EU members in respect to Spain.

Which thanks to your explanation I see is a bit more than just getting an NIE number. Although the NIE number presumably comes as part of the process, and is included on the card.

I think I am a bit spooked by having been absent from Spain for much longer than I wanted due to Covid and have been seizing on dire conclusions. Now my Spanish is at last coming on.. I find I am able to actually read what the card says.. -always useful!!

Hopefully it will still be valid when I manage to get back to Spain.

Many thanks again

Is it just your NIE? Or does it say "CERTIFICADO DE REGISTRO DE CIUDADANO DE LA UNION"?

(Does it look like this?)


If it's just a NIE, then it's no good. But I think it's the certificate, which is, indeed, supposed to give rights under the withdrawal agreement.

If so, CONGRATULATIONS! Having this certificate is FAR better than starting again as a non-EU citizen with a visa followed by a new residence application! So regardless of where you've been recently, I would strongly recommend you try to do something with this certificate. (Besides, with the Covid Crisis I am sure you can come up with a great explanation for your absence, if anyone were to ask you.)

So... can you remember your "padron"? This is another certificate (proof of address) issued when you registered at the local town hall. Do you have this too? I'm guessing you don't... and you probably didn't keep a place in Spain... and so you probably got de-registered. But maybe not.

(It should look something like this...)


If you want to try to proceed, you will need to get yourself at least a room rental (with contract) somewhere so you can register yourself again and get a new padron certificate. You have to go to the town hall in person to get this. It's easier if you have a rental contract, but you could use a friend's place if you take an appropriate document from them stating that you live there.

There is good news (from interior.gob.es):

"The current registration certificates and the cards of family members of EU citizens - these during their validity period - available to British citizens and their relatives residing in Spain are valid documents to prove legal residence in Spain prior to 1 January 2021, and benefit from the provisions of the Withdrawal Agreement.

From July 6, 2020, the beneficiary cards of the Withdrawal Agreement have been issued, the obtaining of which is not mandatory but it is recommended because it is a uniform EU model."

The validity of the certificate is 5 years, so you are within this period. What this says is that the certificate continues to be valid, but it's *recommended* to go get it exchanged for the new Brexit certificate. Which I believe is a TIE (Tarjeta de Identidad de Extranero). This is worth having anyway as it's an official plastic ID card, which the little paper certificate isn't. While, technically, you could put it off until sometime in 2023 (issue date + 5 years), I'd recommend doing it ASAP because of Covid and Brexit being recent events (and because you've been away so you want to find out quickly if this is gonna work or not).

(Which should look more like this pic.)


The process for exchanging your certificate for your TIE, is done at the police of your local district. So you will have to get yourself over to Spain to do this.

You book yourself an appointment online ("Internet Cita Previa") using the standard Spanish booking system at sede.administracionespublicas.gob.es.

And you need to choose your district and the correct option ("POLICE-EXP. CARD ASSOCIATED WITH THE RETIREMENT AGREEMENT FOR BRITISH CITIZENS AND THEIR RELATIVES BREXIT").

This confirms that: "To access this procedure, you must be the holder of one of the following documents: Union Citizen Registration Certificate."

You'll need to fill in the correct form, and pay a small fee, and gather some documentation for your appointment. All is listed online, as follows. The only thing you don't have is the is the "current registration certificate" (or padron certificate).

"The issuance of the Foreigner Identity Card (TIE) can only be carried out in the province of residence.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FOR THE ISSUANCE OF THE FOREIGNER IDENTITY CARD (TIE):

Application form model EX-23 (pdf) , duly completed and signed by the applicant or his legal representative (link below).

Valid and valid passport of the applicant. In the event that the passport is expired, you must provide a copy of it and the renewal application. At the time of collecting the card, the Passport must be valid. (Original and copy of the biometric page).

Proof of payment of the fee Model 790 Code 012 of the Ministry of the Interior. The copy must be correctly printed in its entirety, not admitting in any case prints in which the lower part of the document does not appear, which contains the annotation "Copy for the Administration". The form is downloaded from the Police website ( link below ). The option that must be marked to pay the amount corresponding to this Foreigner Identity Card is " Certificate of registration of community resident or residence card of family member of a citizen of the Union ".

IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO PHOTOCOPY THE FORM OF THE FEE , since each form is recognized with a unique identifier.

In the event that the Model 790 has been subscribed , code. 012 improperly, must be filed refund of this fee in person at the Documentation Unit where he was issued the Alien Identification Card, or failing that , where he obtained an appointment for that purpose. In no case should the return be requested through registration.

A photograph , in accordance with the requirements established in the regulations on Spanish National Identity Document: Recent color photograph of the applicant's face, size 32x26 millimeters, with a uniform white and smooth background, taken from the front with the head totally uncovered and without dark glasses or any other garment that may prevent or hinder the identification of the person. (The photograph must clearly show the oval of the face, which includes eyebrows, eyes, nose, mouth and chin, and must be of high resolution and on good quality photographic paper) .

Current registration certificate or flyer in case you have changed your address (issued in the last three months). Original and copy.

Provide a Union Citizen Registration Certificate or Foreigner Identity Card if available. Failing that, a report of loss or theft."

Yep, you can read all that, or just get yourself a gestor to handle all of this for you. https://www.spainexpat.com/gestoria/ser … -agreement
Even comes with a satisfaction guarantee.

The reality is everyone is backlogged by the number of cases created by Brexit. If you want help, you'll probably have to pay someone.

I appreciate that some might be a bit jaded by the Brexit saga / Brexit paperwork... and I also agree that a Gestor can often save time and hassle in navigating Spanish bureaucracy...

But in this case, I'm pretty sure a Gestor is not the answer. As far as I know, when you do the Padron, you have to go in person. And when you go to the police for your TIE, you have to go in person (apart from anything else, it's a biometric ID card with your photo and fingerprints).

I apologize for the length of my initial post (but hard to avoid when I'm quoting the official requirements). In fact, the number of (TIE) requirements can be summarized very simply as:
- passport
- photo
- application form
- application payment
- Certificado de Registro
- recent padron certificate

None of these need a Gestor to help you! (Although if you're a nervous about Spanish forms, you could get a Gestor to help you with the application form, doing the payment, and booking the padron and TIE appointments.) In fact, I've done all these myself, and they're all pretty easy... apart from the issue of arranging a place to live, and making sure you have a rental contract or other official documentation to show the town hall, so you can make an appointment and get your padron certificate. (Well, we own a place, so actually this is very easy too, I just print off a copy of our Nota Simple to show the town hall/police.)

And, fortunately, there doesn't appear to be a backlog... I just entered the system to see if I could get an appointment (for the TIE) for myself in Alicante, and they offered dates next week! However, I'm guessing the town hall for the padron will be a bit slower. (It might be more backlogged in Madrid, but in my experience, if there's a procedure that is over-subscribed, then it's over-subscribed everywhere.)

Overall, I imagine it can be done within a couple of weeks. Certainly that's what I'm expecting when I fly over after my 2nd Covid vaccination to do this on my own account.

A thousand thank yous  @gwynj  - seriously this was so incredibly helpful -  I had actually given up that a move to Spain would be possible so this has given me some hope!

I checked the little green card  and it says
ESPANA
CERTIFICADO DE REGISTRO DE CIUDADANO DE LA UNION
It then has  my personal details and my old address.  So does this count as a Union Citizen Registration Certificate?

I looked online and it said that if I have been away from Spain for more than  a certain amount of time then this would no longer be valid and I would need to reapply?

If this is not the case my next step would be to exchange this for a TIE - would this need to be in the same  police/ local government office as I originally got this green card ? Thank you so much for making the steps so easy to follow and understand as well.

As you say the only thing I  don't have is the is the "current registration certificate" (or padron certificate). Is this basically a contract between myself and a  a landlord?  If so I could find somewhere to rent for 90 days and hopefully this would be enough...

Diolch  so so much I wanted to wait until I could thank you properly on my laptop before replying to your helpful message  thank you again!!

Thank you for this link however it says it is 6oo euros  which I am afraid is unaffordable for me but i great option for someone with more means

Little Green Card (LGC) = CERTIFICADO DE REGISTRO DE CIUDADANO DE LA UNION = Union Citizen Registration Certificate = CONGRATULATIONS, you (nearly) beat BREXIT!

TIE = Tarjeta de Identidad de Extranjero

Exchange of LGC for TIE, not obligatory, but "RECOMMENDED" (IMHO, given your absence, ESSENTIAL).

LGC = liitle bit of paper, TIE = biometric identity card

Exchange is done in the district of your Spanish residence (as per your Padron), but you can choose this to be ANYWHERE in Spain, no matter where your LGC was issued.

You have to register your address at your local town hall, and this is the "Padron", or Certificado de Empadronamiento. This is a proof of address in Spain, in the same way that your Council Tax is in the UK. This is not usually needed for the LGC, but is needed for the TIE.

When you go there, they will want proof that it's your home in Spain, so it's usually some combination of long term rental contract or property deed and/or utility bill and/or bank statement. Short-term contracts or hotel stays would not be accepted.

If, instead, you have a kind friend in Spain who lets you stay in their spare room, the friend would probably still have to give you some kind of rental contract, unless they go with you to the appointment and show their deed/rental contract and sign some kind of authorization/confirmation that you live there.

For 8 years now I have allowed a friend to use, rent free, an apartment i own.

I gave him a letter explaining his position. 

No problem with registering on the Padrón.

The reason for my action is two fold: 

1 my friend is 88 and is in a
Minimum U.K. state retirement pension.

2   8 years ago I was trying to sell the property. The market was so bad i had no hope of finding a buyer even at a generous discount.  Having it looked after by live-in caretaker was a good option.

PS. If the market ever recovers I might try to sell again.  Not holding my breath though. Despite agents constantly trying to talk the market up, saying properties are selling !!!!

Ah, @Johncar, we would all like friends like you! :-)

gwynj wrote:

Ah, @Johncar, we would all like friends like you! :-)

John is one of us

ABSENCE from Spain (or other EU member state)

As per EU DIrective 2004/38/EC on "Free Movement", EU citizens (as we were) are entitled to move freely throughout the EU to live/work/retire/hang out at the beach. The requirement is only that the EU citizen "register with the relevant authorities" if their stay is more than 3 months (and a "registration certificate shall be issued immediately, stating the name and address of the person registering and the date of the registration").

The Directive does not contain any language about minimum stays or maximum absences in relation to this registration, and many EU citizens routinely live mostly in one country but have second/holiday homes in another.

This Directive does contain language about the permitted absences for (a) the "Residence card" issued to a "family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State", and (b) the acquisition of permanent residence after a "continuous period of five years", and (c) the loss of permanent residence ("Long Term Resident's EC Residence Permit").

Hence there are no absence conditions defined for the Spanish CERTIFICADO DE REGISTRO DE CIUDADANO DE LA UNION (at least in the EU directive, there might possibly be one in the related Spanish laws to implement the directive).

Moreover, as a separate issue, UK citizens' rights are by the the "EU-UK Withdrawal Agreement" with effect from the UK departure from the EU (end 2019), and the "transition period" (to end 2020), and thereafter. This agreement secures the "residency rights" of "UK nationals in EU countries" who can continue "to live, work or study in their host country".

Spain adopted a "declaratory" system, whereby "those who comply with the conditions automatically become beneficiaries of the Withdrawal Agreement". Specifically, "From 6 July 2020. UK citizens [who hold a registration certificate] can apply for new TIE biometric card. No deadline for TIE card application."

The list of requirements for exchanging the registration certificate for the TIE is very straightforward (I listed them elsewhere), and do NOT include any proof of presence in Spain (or dates of absence from Spain).

However... going forward... we are no longer EU citizens... and we can expect our passports to be stamped upon entry and exit in EU countries (as we are entitled to only 90 in 180 days visa free). Therefore, prolonged absence from Spain (or any other EU country you hold residence) will become very easy to spot... and might then serve as justification for revocation.

In addition, as we are no longer EU citizens, I would expect the TIE issued per the above procedure to be subject to same absence restrictions as those for non-EU family members of EU citizens, per Article 11.2 of the above EU Directive:

"The validity of the residence card shall not be affected by temporary absences not exceeding six months a year, or by absences of a longer duration for compulsory military service or by one absence of a maximum of twelve consecutive months for important reasons such as pregnancy and childbirth, serious illness, study or vocational training, or a posting in another Member State or a third country."

In other words, the Spanish registration certificate (or CERTIFICADO DE REGISTRO DE CIUDADANO DE LA UNION) is a Brexit-beating right to Spanish residence (and the TIE to prove this to immigration and potential employers). And, moreover, having secured your TIE (and subject to the absence conditions mentioned above) you can expect to be able to acquire permanent residence in Spain, qualifying you for a "Long Term Resident's EC Residence Permit", and its associated rights of Freedom of Movement broadly in line with the rights our UK passports once enjoyed.

SimCityAT wrote:

gwynj wrote:

Ah, @Johncar, we would all like friends like you! :-)

John is one of us

Goodfellow

gwynj wrote:

Ah, @Johncar, we would all like friends like you! :-)

We are all proud;

In this world of ours a true friend is rare and hard to find

"Who finds a faithful friend finds a valuable treasure to keep.."

Amazing thank you so much

@johncar this is so lovely of you would you mind sharing a template of this letter with me by any chance?
A friend is kindly letting me do the same I don't want to mess up the letter though and would be good to know what it should say. Did you also go with your friend and show the original deeds to the house and a utility bill in your name? I'm so keen not to mess this up x

This is the letter I gave my friend. I did not go with him when he registered on the `padrón


     Certifico que yo     xxxxxxx,    NIE X-11111111-T, propietario del apartamento situada a Calle XXXX, 4 (Edif. XXX Esc  1 - 01 , permito a XXXXXX , NIE  X-XXXXXX E, sin ningún pago, vive en ese apartamento por períodos de 12 meses, según lo acordado mutuamente a partir del 1 de octubre de 2012,                         
       
                                                                                           XXXXXXXXXX)
                     
                                                                                         Tenant   XXXXXXXXX)
Fuengirola, el        de Octubre, 2020


         I certify that, I XXXXXXX, NIE 11111 T, owner of the apartment situated at Calle XXXXX , 4 (Edif XXXXX) Esc 1  -  01 ,  allow XXXXX  NIE X- XXXXX E, rent free, to live in that apartment for periods of 12 months, as mutually agreed from October 11, 2012,               

                                                                                     (XXXXXXXXXX )
                                               
                                                         (tenant xxxxxxxx )
Fuengirola,         October, 2020

Just a thought

The padrón office can easily check that the person supplying the letter is the owner. It is in their records

@johncar you are so incredibly kind for sending this and also it is good to hear I won't need to have someone with me. Thank you so so much honestly this means alot xxx

So I wanted to say a huge thank you to @gwynj29 who helped me so so much  and I am now  in Spain. Your information was so accurate and  precise that I made it out here in the end YAY! Thank you so much!

@Natalie Anne

Well... Nats... thanks for your kind message, and I'm sure we're all delighted to hear of your success - just 6 months after you first posted here. Many congratulations on your new life in Spain!

However, you still have to wait a few weeks to collect your TIE from the Alicante office... so maybe that's the date for the big celebration? :-)

This is great news for any Brits who still have their little green/blue CERTIFICADO DE REGISTRO (and it's within its 5 years validity period). The process was quite straightforward, and didn't require proof of health insurance, or proof of income, or any proof of time spent in (or out) of Spain.

The only challenge is that you absolutely have to get back on the padron before you swap the registration certificate for an official ID card, the shiny new TIE. Fortunately, this was not an issue, as inspired by @Johncar, Nats is enjoying the delights of Elche and Alicante from our spare bedroom. :-)