MM2H Sabah -- proving income from sales of investment shares

Hi everyone,

We are a family of 3. I am over 50 (just) . I am British, but have lived in Japan for over 25 years.
I plan to apply for MM2H Sabah in future.

I do not have a company pension.

I plan to support my family using periodic sales of stocks I own to meet the minimum
monthly income requirement (***).

My question : Has anyone on this Board done the same (as above ***).
                         If so, what did they ask for?

I will visit Kota Kinabalu for a long holiday in March, and ask at Immigration myself,
but I just wondered if anyone had tried the stock sales method?

Thank you in advance.

Two issues here. One is demonstrating that you have qualifying LIQUID ASSETS (for over 50 years of age-  RM350,000) and the second is demonstration that you will have RM10,000 in guaranteed income.
That's for the Federal program. They require that you show bank account with the deposit amount over the last three months.

So if Sabah goes by the Federal rules you would not be allowed to show your stocks as Liquid Assets to qualify, and you would not be allowed to use withdrawals to establish a permanent fixed income. After all, the market may crash and your supposed RM350K may turn into RM200K...and you could terminate your supposed "promise" to receive RM10,000/month at any time.

It would not be allowed under MM2H so I don't know why you consider this as an option?

So discussing this with SABAH immigration is imperative. They establish their own rules, like Sarawak.  Perhaps they will say - as long as you submit RM150,000 into a fixed account you are okay.  Another element is that Sabah has been expecting applicants to either purchase or show long-term leases on property. They want the applicants to actually live in Sabah.

Sarawak doesn't seem to care about showing any proof of liquid assets. They only are concerned about whether you have a pension (over RM10,000 for a couple) or other guaranteed income...OR establish a fixed deposit of RM150,000. They may be fine with your plan to fund your monthly needs via stock withdrawals. They also don't have any requirement about long term leases or property purchases.  The big barrier here is finding a Sarawakian sponsor...especially since the use of agents and paid middlemen is verboten.

Dear Cinnamon,

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

You write:
"It would not be allowed under MM2H so I don't know why you consider this as an option?
So discussing this with SABAH immigration is imperative. They establish their own rules"

That's right. That's why I will visit Sabah Immigration to enquire while I am on holiday with my family.

I was asking, specifically, whether anyone HAD gotten MM2H Sabah through investment shares.

Anyway, thank you for replying.

Sorry...best of luck finding someone. But given the vacuous and "unwritten" nature of the Sabah MM2H even if someone did receive approval, another immigration officer might say "No". So it's best to speak with them directly.

In addition people applying through an agent might have different experience...the agent might have a "relationship" with the Immigration Officer (this is code...elsewhere it's called "duit kopi", "Tea Money", Baksheesh, or grease, suap, allurement, dropsy, hactzien, huilu).

Or they may set up some sort of system where the shares go to a Trust or other financial fiction that doles out the money in regular increments.

I should point out that on the Peninsula they will accept rental income but are now only issuing the visa to the length of the lease given on the properties used to qualify. Thus if you have a two year lease then you only get two years visa, and must show an extension or the new lease when you reapply.

Thanks, Cinnamon.

I will post anything useful to this Board after meeting Immigration in KK.

Getting important visas using "lubrication"...well, yes.
Haven't read anything posted on MM2H Forums in this regard; few important processes
in life are entirely clean in any country.

Why don’t you try in Sarawak and you will still be able to live in Sabah. I know a lot about Sarawak’s requirements and I believe selling stock is a legit source of offshore income which is acceptable.

If you need more info just inbox me. Thanks

Groovy16 :

Why don’t you try in Sarawak and you will still be able to live in Sabah.

I'm pretty sure that if you want to live in Sabah, neither Peninsular nor Sarawak MM2H is sufficient. I believe Cinnamonape has looked into this.

To answer the OP question, i have not heard of anyone using stock to fund retirement or these programs but that doesnt mean you couldnt be the first (and then I would have heard of someone!)

Like it said, East has its own rules and I will stretch to say that if application volume is low, you may have a good chance. This is unlike Singapore which at one time had 20,000 applicants per week ( i want to say per month but i think it was per week) and this caused rules to be strict and levels to be high.

The people I personally know on MM2H met the stated guidelines so there wasnt a question of alternative sources of money. My advice is to always try your luck. One says no, the committee says yes, or vice versa. I have heard of all kinds of inconsistent things that happen but more and more things are even-ing out to a more consistent line.

Regarding getting a Sarawak M2H and then living in Sabah, what Cobolin said is correct. I had some American friends...one of whom was ethnic Kadaszan (but a naturalized US citizen) who entered in on the Sarawak MM2H. Her family even had land in Sabah that she inherited. I can't remember what the issue was as to why they didn't apply for the Sabah MM2H...I think it was the same issue. They met the financial qualifications in Sarawak but not Sabah.

In any case, after they got their Sarawak MM2H they tried to set up shop in Sabah. "Sorry, you can only stay for 1 month". "But we have Sarawak MM2H!" "You cannot live in Sabah". So Sabah now requires their own visa.

And Sarawak doesn't require any "proof of assets" per se...as long as you submit the Fixed Account (RM100K single, RM150K for couple). If you want to enter in on the PENSION OPTION you must show that you have regular and guaranteed sources of income. It's unlikely that they'd accept stock market trades as proof of something regular and guaranteed in Sarawak.

I've also heard that Sabah is also requiring people to buy property or have a long term rental agreement.

Ask to speak to the person who actually manages the Sabah MM2H at Immigration...lower ranking officers may say "cannot" when you can.

Many thanks for all the useful input from the above posters.
Thank you for taking the time to answer and help.

Cinnamon -- great idea (below)
" Ask to speak to the person who actually manages the Sabah MM2H at Immigration...lower ranking officers may say "cannot" when you can"

I don't have a pension, and in future I suspect many more applicants won't --
good pensions are going the way of the dodo in many employment sectors.
Congrats if you have one.

We intend to live in Malaysian Borneo (Sabah preferably, but Sarawak
is also OK), so a long term rental agreement is what we want.

We'll visit Kuching and KK Immigration in Feb / March while on vacation.
Will post anything useful. But my gut feeling is that, despite rules, each case
is assessed separately and even possibly "flexibly" (that is code, of course)

Realise that pensions in the West are fleeting memories. Most countries still have something like a Social Security program and many people who reach their mandatory requirement age can approach the amount needed by SM2H as "pension" by using that.

Still I understand the desire by these countries to have some standards to have applicants show income coming in that is regular and not subject to stock-market crashes and the applicants own skill at moving money. That could be a requisite withdrawal monthly amount from a 401K style market account (still dependent upon market conditions) or some sort of annuity.

Or one could place the necessary amount in the Fixed Account. Sarawak doesn't require any "proof of income" if one does that.

Sabah and the Peninsular programs require a) proof of liquid assets (stocks and bonds are NOT liquid assets) b) proof of pension or other regular guaranteed income (rental income is proof only for the length of the lease and one must renew the visa at that time) AND c) establishing a fixed deposit. Sabah may also have that residency requirement.

Sarawak only requires (b) OR (c).  No agents are allowed officially in Sarawak so the
"flexibility" is less in that regard. Since you probably don't qualify under (b) you could solve the issue by (c) establish a fixed deposit (at [at]3-3.5% interest).  Those are RM100,000 ([at] US$24,500) for a single applicant, or RM150,000 ([at]US$36,600) for a married couple. You can use some of that for car, buying property, health care, child's education drawing it down to RM60,000 ([at]$15,000).

Thanks for the additional colour, Cinnamon.

I've read through the relevant previous posts regarding the difference between Sabah and Sarawak MM2H.

Sarawak seems easier, except the Sarawakian sponsor part -- that will be a major hurdle I imagine.

I have the UK National Insurance contributions, but that doesn't kick in for another 15 years in my case,
age 67; and by that time, it could well be 70.

Then you will likely have to establish a fixed account. At 3.5% per annum the gains are not so terrible and if you intended to buy property, or a car (or have kids in school or want to get a health insurance plan)...you could lower that Deposit to RM60,000.

There's an effort to reform the Sarawak MM2H...but the pace is glacial.  There are two major changes I've suggested besides "Promote the darn thing" and that's to eliminate the sponsorship requirement (technically have the State government become the sponsor) and allow any good/service produced in Sarawak to be eligible for reimbursement from the Fixed Account (perhaps lowering the floor to RM20,000).

The benefits of the first reform is that they'd get lots more applicants, there would be less paperwork and time loss for Ministry of Immigration staff (no interviews), and it would cut time from submission to approval to, well , almost automatic (especially if they institute an on-line pre-screening process). You'd simply submit any originals/notorized documents needed [they'd have looked over and vetted most of these already from the on-line submission...they'd only have to conform], the health check up, and the Fixed Deposit. Those two are also automatic and confirmed. So once they have these it's a rubber stamp process. Maybe the next day. Saves the applicant time and money, saves immigration time and money.

The Fixed Deposit "revision" would actually generate more money for Sarawak's economy. Currently the FD mainly assists in providing liquidity to the banks for loans and foreign exchange balance for Malaysia. But because you take the money away again (with interest) when you leave the program it's a temporary band-aid. You really want people to SPEND outside money in Sarawak. Thus you want them to exploit that account (one can't if it is "Fixed") for local purchases. That helps local merchants have more successful businesses, local workers improve their family income, and generates tax revenue for the State. Plus the MM2H recipient is less likely to need to operate on a tight budget. They can spend more locally. And when it comes to a choice between a local product and a similar one from abroad...they may buy local.  Rarely do I come across situations that are Non Zero-Sum games...but this is win-win-win for all stakeholders. Well except perhaps the bankers ;-)

Three news items on Sabah MM2H that might suggest a push for revisions there.

http://www.dailyexpress.com.my/news/138 … roperties/

http://www.dailyexpress.com.my/news/140 … oost-mm2h/

But there is opposition

http://www.dailyexpress.com.my/news/141 … ownership/

Interesting ideas. I'll ask when I go if there are any MM2H changes planned.

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