Expat interest in politics in Hungary

fluffy2560 wrote:

Fred wrote:

Jeffrey Kretsch wrote:

For All the Trump haters: TRY to steer away from CNN and other similar garbage news and you might hear some actual news!

Left wing news is rubbish
Right wing news is rubbish

The big trick is using your brain and realising both lie for political gain. 

Is it really a big trick Fred?

There has to be  some level of analysis and depth to rejection of the left and right manifestos. 

I might even put it in terms of deprogramming or even de-radicalisation etc.

Yes, but only because such a massive number of people can't do it. CNN fans only watch left stuff, and Fox fans stick to the right. None use their brains or they'd work out they're just a vote, not a person politicians give a damn about.

Fred wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

And if I was an American, I'd be supporting him simply because of anyone but Trump.

It's a bit hard not to notice how US political parties seem to do their best to pick utter cretins to represent them. Trump didn't win his election, Clinton lost it because she was the bigger idiot. Biden did win, but not because he's actually useful.
None of the last few have been good for anything except for comedians' material, but at least Trump's hair was a laugh.
However, China and Russia loved Trump. He pissed off so many people, he made their job so much easier ... and they took full advantage of it.
Quite why any American would vote for Trump, Clinton, or Biden is beyond my understanding - they're all bloody useless to US domestic politics, and even worse on the international stage.

American political system is nonsensical. The electoral college system is just weird.  Hilary would have won but was stabbed in the back by some random electors.  It's 2022, it's not beyond mankind to devise a system where all votes are counted and the first past the post wins. Yet they give those votes over to electors who do whatever they want.   WTF? 

Both  Biden and Clinton are old school but at least they had years in the system so they know how it works and it works mostly even if there is noise in the system.   Like background hiss.

Trump was just too random to run a coherent government that wasn't based on his ego.  And he was Putin and China's inside man.   Like Orban is China and Putin's inside man here.  Republican Party and Trump look like they are merging to be one and the same thing.  It's very destructive.  Maybe the US's dominance in world affairs is now waning.  Full of infighting and QAnon lunatics.  And others will be in the ascendancy - maybe China.   Putin has been seriously shaken by Kazakhstan's sudden dash to freedom.  It could happen anywhere those hard men are in long term power.   

Democracy is a  pretty ropey ystem but it's the only one we have and it's been going on for a few hundred years or more.  What else would work?   No idea.  So better just make do and try and get it to work.

Maybe the US's dominance in world affairs is now waning

No maybe about it. When world leaders make their feelings about a US president known in public, you can guarantee the US has a problem. There's a list with Canada, Germany, and France well up there.
Every time the US rejects a country, China bangs at that door offering trade and investment.
No matter what you think of The US or China, the latter is winning hands down.

Fred wrote:

Maybe the US's dominance in world affairs is now waning

No maybe about it. When world leaders make their feelings about a US president known in public, you can guarantee the US has a problem. There's a list with Canada, Germany, and France well up there.
Every time the US rejects a country, China bangs at that door offering trade and investment.
No matter what you think of The US or China, the latter is winning hands down.

I don't know, not quite there in marginalisation terms.

Look who Putin wants to talk to about Ukraine, it's the USA.  It's not even the EU.  I was intrigued to hear the EU wants a place at the table. I cannot see that happening as the EU is only an economic bloc, military is taken by NATO.

Trump is likely to bring about the decline by not engaging internationally.  Bringing up the drawbridges and sticking your head in the sand doesn't work militarily or economically.

China one has to wonder about what kind of political weirdos run that place.  Having a tantrum about Taiwan and Lithuania, gimme a break.

I have to admit to a chuckle or two when I hear the latest political idiocy from the US. It no longer matters who the president is or which party runs the country because they're both a set of clueless twits ............... and all bought and paid for by various big industries - oil and armaments being the big two.

Until they get rid of the corruption they haven't got a hope, but no politician will vote to destroy a system that makes them rich.

That's why they aren't worth supporting

Fred wrote:

I have to admit to a chuckle or two when I hear the latest political idiocy from the US. It no longer matters who the president is or which party runs the country because they're both a set of clueless twits ............... and all bought and paid for by various big industries - oil and armaments being the big two.

Until they get rid of the corruption they haven't got a hope, but no politician will vote to destroy a system that makes them rich.

That's why they aren't worth supporting

I don't think they are clueless at all but they just want the cash.   Money talks, that's the problem. 

I've been watching a TV show called Dopesick.  It's how big pharma manipulated the system to get people hooked on opiates and killed about 500,000 people.  Nobody went to jail and everyone is still rich.   Absolutely criminal.  That's why US medical system will never be reformed.   Too many self-interests.

Geopolitics are an interesting one theoretically from an ethical point of view but home politics will rule the roost eventually.     

I just saw a news report on a request from the Taliban for food aid.  Yet another report today says all women have to where burkas when in the street. 

So bit of a dilemma there - give them food aid (and US logistics) and try to win hearts and minds of the population while supporting a clearly oppressive regime.  Punish the majority for the beliefs of the minority.   What to do?   

I reckon they will simply ignore them.  I cannot see them giving them any of the money the West holds anytime soon.   Not until they revise their policies anyway.   Influx of refugees is going to increase.

There's a pro-O1G opinion piece on Euronews:

Hungary rigged election claim is as cynical as it is absurd

I've think I've seen the author upfront in the Brexit Town Hall Meetings. Superficially he's very charming and amusing but otherwise he's just another O1G apologist flake.

Certainly just another vapid tool of the government in their own echo chamber of self-love. When you make extraordinary lies, the "normal" ones don't sound so far-fetched.
It does sound like they are getting more and more desperate. I can only hope the final results will bear this out.

Vicces1 wrote:

Certainly just another vapid tool of the government in their own echo chamber of self-love. When you make extraordinary lies, the "normal" ones don't sound so far-fetched.
It does sound like they are getting more and more desperate. I can only hope the final results will bear this out.

I agree.   There's nothing like living in a distant bubble with all the others who think the same way.   But that's what happens with governments and politicians in power for a long time. Eventually they run out of ideas, get stale and are unsustainable as they get disconnected from the people and reality. 

There's a BBC article about the fall of Tunisian dictator, president Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali - Secret audio sheds light on toppled dictator's frantic last hours

It's an interesting example of how people do not believe the winds of change are coming their way.   

There are so many of these kinds of people who could easily be vulnerable to a rapid change - Erdogan, Putin, that Kazakh guy and potentially even Orban (as he would be a few years down the line). 

But realistically, I do hope the Hungarians turnout and vote for change.   It's the only way to get O1G out for sure. I haven't been following the polls.  Márki-Zay seems to be climbing in popularity.   He has some non-liberal views which perhaps pander to the O1G crowd.   But he's more on the right track.

fluffy2560 wrote:

There's a BBC article about the fall of Tunisian dictator, president Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali - Secret audio sheds light on toppled dictator's frantic last hours

It's an interesting example of how people do not believe the winds of change are coming their way.   

There are so many of these kinds of people who could easily be vulnerable to a rapid change - Erdogan, Putin, that Kazakh guy and potentially even Orban (as he would be a few years down the line). 

But realistically, I do hope the Hungarians turnout and vote for change.   It's the only way to get O1G out for sure. I haven't been following the polls. He has some non-liberal views which perhaps pander to the O1G crowd. But he's more on the right track.

I read that article -- it really emphasizes that many of the rich and powerful are there not through any special ability, but cronyism and corruption, and the tolerance of the masses. I would add Belarussian President Lukashenko to the list. Just imagine what all these rulers could do if instead of corruption they pursued policies of general welfare... They could stay in power and be held in high esteem. Instead we get corrupt people exploiting the populace and general thuggery. I do not see most of these getting the justice they deserve...certainly not in measure to the misery they have caused.
I do not agree with Marky-Zay on some things, but he is a million times better than O1G. I believe he does want to do what he believes is right for the country, and stop this nonsense of always at war with Brussels and minorities scapegoatism.  It will be interesting to me what happens to the Visegrad 4 if Marky-Zay wins. Will the EU no longer have a sanctioning veto against Poland? Will EU taxpayers see more accountability in Hungary? I mean the corruption doesn't stop with O1G, it is thoroughly embedded in the system now...
But again, much happier to have these thoughts with Marky-Zay as leader and not O1G.

Vicces1 wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

There's a BBC article about the fall of Tunisian dictator, president Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali - Secret audio sheds light on toppled dictator's frantic last hours

It's an interesting example of how people do not believe the winds of change are coming their way.   

There are so many of these kinds of people who could easily be vulnerable to a rapid change - Erdogan, Putin, that Kazakh guy and potentially even Orban (as he would be a few years down the line). 

But realistically, I do hope the Hungarians turnout and vote for change.   It's the only way to get O1G out for sure. I haven't been following the polls. He has some non-liberal views which perhaps pander to the O1G crowd. But he's more on the right track.

I read that article -- it really emphasizes that many of the rich and powerful are there not through any special ability, but cronyism and corruption, and the tolerance of the masses. I would add Belarussian President Lukashenko to the list. Just imagine what all these rulers could do if instead of corruption they pursued policies of general welfare... They could stay in power and be held in high esteem. Instead we get corrupt people exploiting the populace and general thuggery. I do not see most of these getting the justice they deserve...certainly not in measure to the misery they have caused.
I do not agree with Marky-Zay on some things, but he is a million times better than O1G. I believe he does want to do what he believes is right for the country, and stop this nonsense of always at war with Brussels and minorities scapegoatism.  It will be interesting to me what happens to the Visegrad 4 if Marky-Zay wins. Will the EU no longer have a sanctioning veto against Poland? Will EU taxpayers see more accountability in Hungary? I mean the corruption doesn't stop with O1G, it is thoroughly embedded in the system now...
But again, much happier to have these thoughts with Marky-Zay as leader and not O1G.

We're on the same page.   

The problem with governments is reversing damage caused by the previous incumbents.  Not just economics but in people's minds.  There are people who have only known O1G and who are now voters - O1G has been in for 10 years. Someone who was 8 when he got in and is now a voter at 18.   Some of them and the older (and ridiculously manipulated) majority have been brainwashed/tricked/manipulated or whatever adjective fits into a specific mindset. That's particularly those without access to other points of view in mainly the foreign media or the lack of basic knowledge to understand what they are reading or being assailed by.

Marky-Zay would be in a coalition and could be stymied in getting back to normality.  O1G's cronies won't all be locked up by then and O1G won't have run away to Dubai to spent his millions or billions.  MZ would only have 4 years until the next election. It'll take him 2 years just to understand the detail of what has been going on.   If MZ fails this time, he's out for good.  And  the opposition has to start again.

As for Luka, he's Putin's poodle and useful idiot.  He'll roll over to be tickled if Putin shows signs of paying attention.   And if Putin says "jump", Luka will just ask "how high".  Pathetic to see.

Be interesting to see what O1G does or says if and when Ukraine gets invaded by Putin.  We're a bit closer to the nightmare than many others.

As for Visegrad, meh,  Poland PIS party is looking ridiculous now. 

I'm rather worried about the UK PM's mental state - Operation Save Big Dog?  Oh, FFS, how infantile.

Politics and democracy is sometimes depressing, on the other side dictators are also not too good
But democracy leaves especially for election years to decisions which are not good for society.
In the past there were enlightened "dictators" looking to get the good for the people rather than for themselves, not too many but there were.
I prefer an Enlighted dictator rather then democracy manipulating voters and spending money away and creating issues for the future.
Hungary is not alone in making wrong decisions, personally I think Macron and Putin are actually a good job (for their people). Just my view

cdw057 wrote:

Politics and democracy is sometimes depressing, on the other side dictators are also not too good
But democracy leaves especially for election years to decisions which are not good for society.
In the past there were enlightened "dictators" looking to get the good for the people rather than for themselves, not too many but there were.
I prefer an Enlighted dictator rather then democracy manipulating voters and spending money away and creating issues for the future.
Hungary is not alone in making wrong decisions, personally I think Macron and Putin are actually a good job (for their people). Just my view

Enlightened dictator is a short step from fascist dictator.   It would so easy to just decide - as dictator - that his/her word is absolute.   One of the reasons the Americans had a revolution.  And why Trump was out.

Macron is very unpopular in France and not liked by many.  Make one wonder how he got elected. 

Putin may dress up his politics as patriotism but he's just another autocrat.

BTW, Hungary has made a profession out of betting on the wrong horses.  Remember Mohacs, Trianon and Horthy's alliance with the Nazis.

"Macron is very unpopular in France and not liked by many.  Make one wonder how he got elected."

Many times it is decided by who they are running against.
Corrupt Sarkozy or Nationalistic Le Pen in Macron's case.
Sarkozy now being under house arrest and convicted...

We are well reminded regarding these little dictators the phrase:
"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."
That's true even if the relative absolute power is in a large or small nation.

Vicces1 wrote:

"Macron is very unpopular in France and not liked by many.  Make one wonder how he got elected."

Many times it is decided by who they are running against.
Corrupt Sarkozy or Nationalistic Le Pen in Macron's case.
Sarkozy now being under house arrest and convicted...

We are well reminded regarding these little dictators the phrase:
"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."
That's true even if the relative absolute power is in a large or small nation.

Macron has very little chance of being re-elected.  French presidents don't have much of a history of getting a second term. Only a few of them and the famous names - de Gaulle, Mitterand, Chirac etc.  Macron isn't in that kind of class.

Some of the others running over there in La Belle France are looking like nutters or extremists.   Zemmour I'm talking about.  Seems to have come from nowhere and is being touted as a French Trump.   Even more extreme than Le Pen Junior - she's  one of OV's mates I believe.

This part of the election campaign is quite funny (parody of the Márki-Zay/Gyurcsány mini-me posters):



Follows on from OV meeting with Vlad in Moscow, purportedly over gas prices.  Mini-Putin!  The boss has got a clone.

I wish Frederik the Great was still alive, good for the people (not so much for Catholics, but for the rest in general good)

cdw057 wrote:

I wish Frederik the Great was still alive, good for the people (not so much for Catholics, but for the rest in general good)

Meh, a lot of people in  Hungary think they want a "benign" dictator, perhaps in the form of  the mini-Putin.   

Unfortunately once the people have lost whatever freedoms they had, they won't get them back.

OV's meeting with Putin. 

I'm trying to work out if Mini-Putyin, sorry, I mean OV is so far away from Putin at the other end of the giant table because OV is insignificant or it's COVID related:

Putin's giant table update (this time with Macron):

fluffy2560 wrote:

OV's meeting with Putin. 

I'm trying to work out if Mini-Putyin, sorry, I mean OV is so far away from Putin at the other end of the giant table because OV is insignificant or it's COVID related:

[img align=C]https://privatbankar.hu/i/6/1/f/e/3/d/a/d/3/9/a/2/a/3/6/4/b/3/8/3/vlagyimir-putyin-es-orban-viktor-targyalasa-a-kremlben-moszkvaban-2022-februar-1-jen-mtikreml_lgc.jpg[/url]

Covid table!

cdw057 wrote:

I wish Frederik the Great was still alive, good for the people (not so much for Catholics, but for the rest in general good)

Or Attlia the Hun!

Putin has moved his (alleged)  yacht, just in case it would get seized due to personal sanctions re Ukraine.  For some reason,  they moved it to Kaliningrad.   There's no way it's moving out of the Baltic from there:

https://telex.hu/kulfold/2022/02/09/gra … mir-putyin

The actual yacht (probably equipped with large table):

Still from a Russian perspective I think Putin is doing a good job, admittedly having such a vessel is NOT good, he should take Rutte as a reference (in many years he has been modest (I think) and quite wise (stubborn as it seems, but still)).

Power comes to ones mind, but what would I be in power for so many years?

fluffy2560 wrote:

Putin has moved his (alleged)  yacht, just in case it would get seized due to personal sanctions re Ukraine.  For some reason,  they moved it to Kaliningrad.   There's no way it's moving out of the Baltic from there:

https://telex.hu/kulfold/2022/02/09/gra … mir-putyin

The actual yacht (probably equipped with large table):

https://images.telex-assets.hu/20220209 … -kicsi.jpg

Yes, I'm sure he has a "Covid Table" inside this bad boy.
Some one please wake me up with the freak show is over with!!

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Putin has moved his (alleged)  yacht, just in case it would get seized due to personal sanctions re Ukraine.  For some reason,  they moved it to Kaliningrad.   There's no way it's moving out of the Baltic from there:

https://telex.hu/kulfold/2022/02/09/gra … mir-putyin

The actual yacht (probably equipped with large table):

https://images.telex-assets.hu/20220209 … -kicsi.jpg

Yes, I'm sure he has a "Covid Table" inside this bad boy.
Some one please wake me up with the freak show is over with!!

I asked a Russian speaking friend about this yacht and he said it was the pride of "what was left of the the Russian Navy".  One cruise missile and she's gone to the bottom of the briny.  Personal sanctions indeed.

In other news from further afield, I'm wondering if the Gazpacho Police will be around soon?

Gazpacho Police

For a professional politician, Marjorie Taylor Green sure is dumb.

I do however  have a thing about burritos.  That's a crime that needs investigating.  How do you stop it splurging out across your clothes?  Seems like a bad design, if not a crime against laundry.

cdw057 wrote:

Still from a Russian perspective I think Putin is doing a good job, admittedly having such a vessel is NOT good, he should take Rutte as a reference (in many years he has been modest (I think) and quite wise (stubborn as it seems, but still)).

Power comes to ones mind, but what would I be in power for so many years?

Putin is doing a good job for Russians?

Leading them into a unnecessary war, where many Russians and others will die so that he can resurrect the USSR, plunge his economy into dire straits,  massage his own ego and extend his own personal rule and enrichment?

Quite the dilemma to want the USSR back which executed the Czar yet he's intending to be a Czar himself.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Putin is doing a good job for Russians?

Leading them into a unnecessary war, where many Russians and others will die so that he can resurrect the USSR, plunge his economy into dire straits,  massage his own ego and extend his own personal rule and enrichment?
.

Only if you believe the press.

I won't even think a out arguing about his goals of personal enrichment and ego because ... drrr... he's a politician, but I would tend to take a differing position on Russian aggression.

1999 saw Poland and Hungry join NATO, and get loads of US troops encamped there.
Romania and Slovakia joined in 2004 - more US troops.
Then we come to the US helping to get rid of the pro-Russian government
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
Just for fun, we'll add US arms shipment to Moldova

Given a large US troop build up in 4 countries bordering Ukraine, US arms sales to another, and US efforts to get Ukraine into NATO, I think we can safely say Russia has reason to worry about it's security. That suggests Putin is isn't the aggressor.

On a totally unrelated point, US shale gas production started at the same time as the revolution in Ukraine. Their gas is far more expensive but they want to sell into the EU. How do you sell something that's such bad value for money? eliminate the competition. Nordstream was controllable if you have political control over Ukraine, but you also have to spike Nordstream 2 and the proposed Israeli pipeline. Oh, they did.

The Ukraine thing, in my opinion, is all about selling gas and making sacks of cash.

Don't take this as a defence of Putin - he's a dick, but he's right in what he says in this case. However, he's no better and I'm very sure he'd do the same if it suited him so he can't really take the moral high ground.

Now that's sorted, we get to the interesting news - Traditional US sheep nations like the UK are not joining in even close to as much as they did in the past, and Germany has taken a position poles apart from the US.
There goes the real story here, and one that's world changing.

Oh, almost forgot, China sticking its ore in is a much bigger story than anyone seems to realise.

Fred wrote:

Only if you believe the press.

I won't even think a out arguing about his goals of personal enrichment and ego because ... drrr... he's a politician, but I would tend to take a differing position on Russian aggression.

1999 saw Poland and Hungry join NATO, and get loads of US troops encamped there.
Romania and Slovakia joined in 2004 - more US troops.
Then we come to the US helping to get rid of the pro-Russian government
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
Just for fun, we'll add US arms shipment to Moldova

Given a large US troop build up in 4 countries bordering Ukraine, US arms sales to another, and US efforts to get Ukraine into NATO, I think we can safely say Russia has reason to worry about it's security. That suggests Putin is isn't the aggressor.

On a totally unrelated point, US shale gas production started at the same time as the revolution in Ukraine. Their gas is far more expensive but they want to sell into the EU. How do you sell something that's such bad value for money? eliminate the competition. Nordstream was controllable if you have political control over Ukraine, but you also have to spike Nordstream 2 and the proposed Israeli pipeline. Oh, they did.

The Ukraine thing, in my opinion, is all about selling gas and making sacks of cash.

Don't take this as a defence of Putin - he's a dick, but he's right in what he says in this case. However, he's no better and I'm very sure he'd do the same if it suited him so he can't really take the moral high ground.

Now that's sorted, we get to the interesting news - Traditional US sheep nations like the UK are not joining in even close to as much as they did in the past, and Germany has taken a position poles apart from the US.
There goes the real story here, and one that's world changing.

Oh, almost forgot, China sticking its ore in is a much bigger story than anyone seems to realise.

SO much in that post.

Putin is not a politician.   All political opposition has been eliminated.   He's an ex-KGB hard man who longs for the return of the USSR with him at the head of that empire.   That's not something the majority of Hungarians would want.   Been 30+ years since the Soviet system collapsed and we're all better of for it.     I cannot see why Putin should be worried about NATO other than it opposes his expansionist plans.  It's a reactive force, not a proactive force.

What Putin has done is made himself a place at a negotiating table.  It's a manufactured crisis used as a cover an invasion of Ukraine.   History of Ukraine and Russia means the Russians think Ukraine isn't a separate country, but part of theirs.   I am sure the Ukrainians do not think they are.

I do agree with the UK being a follower of US policy.  Thing about the US is that they will only do what is good for them.  It's quite telling to see only the US getting the majority of engagement with the Russians.  All the rest seem to be peripheral players.

BTW, here in Hungary, news reports are that  Orban has said NATO troops would not be allowed in-country in support of any operations in Ukraine.   That seems to be completely out of kilter with NATO and EU policies.  The quid pro quo was that Putin would support Orban, i.e. the will be  Putin's proxy and remain in power.

One thing I am finding strange amongst my correspondents is that they don't know their geography.  Nearly everyone I talk to internationally did not know Hungary has a border with Ukraine.   The good news is Donbas is 1000km away.   But Russians in Moldova are not that distant - maybe 400km.    If there is fighting, there will be 1000s of refugees coming across the borders.   I cannot see they could be refused but what plans are in place for them?  I believe Poland is making plans

Putin is not a politician.   All political opposition has been eliminated.   He's an ex-KGB hard man

What do you mean, ex KGB?
He's as KGB as they come and I have every confidence he's still very much charge of what they do. Names may change, but his and that organisation's intentions have not.
He is a politician, and a git of a very special sort.

As for expansionism, apart from Crimea, what as he taken over? Given the US helped dump the government in Ukraine, put puppets in to do theirbidding, and how people in Crimea are ethnically Russian, I can sort of see Putin's point in that case.

I cannot see why Putin should be worried about NATO other than it opposes his expansionist plan

Given NATO, especially the US, has expanded into 4 countries that border Ukraine, is trying to get into another, and is doing what it can to get Ukraine to enter NATO, I'm pretty sure NATO (especially the US) is guilty of expansionism.

the US can hardly complain about someone starting a war - they've invaded their fair share of countries based on lies. WMD?

At the end of the day, there is no right and wrong, just 2 sets of utter bastards out to grab as much gas money as they can to enrich themselves.
Corrupt Biden on one side, and corrupt Putin on the other.
Neither give a rats how many people die as long as their pockets get well lined.

However, in this case, Russia is the defending side as far as expansionist policy goes - but that doesn't mean they're doing it for the right reasons.

Fred wrote:

Putin is not a politician.   All political opposition has been eliminated.   He's an ex-KGB hard man

What do you mean, ex KGB?
He's as KGB as they come and I have every confidence he's still very much charge of what they do. Names may change, but his and that organisation's intentions have not.
He is a politician, and a git of a very special sort.

As for expansionism, apart from Crimea, what as he taken over? Given the US helped dump the government in Ukraine, put puppets in to do their bidding, and how people in Crimea are ethnically Russian, I can sort of see Putin's point in that case.

I cannot see why Putin should be worried about NATO other than it opposes his expansionist plan

Given NATO, especially the US, has expanded into 4 countries that border Ukraine, is trying to get into another, and is doing what it can to get Ukraine to enter NATO, I'm pretty sure NATO (especially the US) is guilty of expansionism.

the US can hardly complain about someone starting a war - they've invaded their fair share of countries based on lies. WMD?

At the end of the day, there is no right and wrong, just 2 sets of utter bastards out to grab as much gas money as they can to enrich themselves.
Corrupt Biden on one side, and corrupt Putin on the other.
Neither give a rats how many people die as long as their pockets get well lined.

However, in this case, Russia is the defending side as far as expansionist policy goes - but that doesn't mean they're doing it for the right reasons.

It's a good point, him and the KGB are the same thing now.

Joining NATO is voluntary.  The Baltics and others joined because they voted to join.  They didn't have to do it.   That's not expansionist and taking territory. 

One might argue Crimea is part of Russia - it was given to Ukraine by the USSR in 1954.

US has indeed invaded lots of places but that's not NATO (I'll concede some NATO involvement in Afghanistan).   US's success has been patchy at best. And the WMD thing was just bonkers.

I was thinking about the Viet Nam war yesterday - I'm old enough to remember it - and I saw an excellent documentary series on how it came about.  I can see similar activities coming into position which could easily trigger a proper conflict - sending equipment, advisors and so on.  Soon, the advisors are engaged in supporting the local troops in conflict and then it's a proper and wider war.

We're "close" relatively speaking so it's very concerning.  The Ukraine border is only few hundred km from Budapest.

The US bombed Indonesia in a series of terrorist attacks at the same time they were conducting massive terrorist bombing campaigns in Laos and Cambodia. Those dammed commies had to go.
Using B52s doesn't make what they did an act of war, just a bigger terrorist campaign.
That's just 3 countries, but there are plenty more.

As for Vietnam, that terrible bunch of mass murdering commies in the north that were threatening the mass murdering dictator the US were supporting in the south - they were also a serious threat to California and Little Rock Arkansas. A Vietnamese communist invasion of the US mainland could have come at any time. Those well armed, ocean going river boats the commies has could have devastated Las Vegas. 

Ah, that's long gone history and China is taking over and fortifying islands, but the saviour US will sort out the problems using navies from islands they took over and fortified - bit ironic. Not that I trust China, but at least they didn't lock up a queen of Hawaii and threaten to kill everyone if she didn't let the Chinese take over. Sugar profits are worth a lot more than a bunch of people who can't speak English.
Vietnam's communist government, the one that kicked America's arse, is now a pal because they they had a war with China for a month. How many people were killed in the US invasion of Vietnam? who cares? not important any more.

Not that Russia (CCCP) was any better - ask the brave freedom fighters in Afghanistan Rambo went to help .... until they turned into evil terrorists.

Syria is a far bigger mess than it would have been if the US and Russia had both kept their fat noses out.

Crimea, if memory serves, was a Muslim area until the Russians did a bit of ethnic cleansing, but it's essentially Russian now.

At the end of the day, the whole thing is down to who makes how much cash, but the propaganda relies on people thinking one side is better than the other.
It all falls down when you realise the lot are a bunch of selfish twats who don't give a flying rat's arse about anything but cash.

Fred wrote:

The US bombed Indonesia in a series of terrorist attacks at the same time they were conducting massive terrorist bombing campaigns in Laos and Cambodia. Those dammed commies had to go.
Using B52s doesn't make what they did an act of war, just a bigger terrorist campaign.
That's just 3 countries, but there are plenty more.

As for Vietnam, that terrible bunch of mass murdering commies in the north that were threatening the mass murdering dictator the US were supporting in the south - they were also a serious threat to California and Little Rock Arkansas. A Vietnamese communist invasion of the US mainland could have come at any time. Those well armed, ocean going river boats the commies has could have devastated Las Vegas. 

Ah, that's long gone history and China is taking over and fortifying islands, but the saviour US will sort out the problems using navies from islands they took over and fortified - bit ironic. Not that I trust China, but at least they didn't lock up a queen of Hawaii and threaten to kill everyone if she didn't let the Chinese take over. Sugar profits are worth a lot more than a bunch of people who can't speak English.
Vietnam's communist government, the one that kicked America's arse, is now a pal because they they had a war with China for a month. How many people were killed in the US invasion of Vietnam? who cares? not important any more.

Not that Russia (CCCP) was any better - ask the brave freedom fighters in Afghanistan Rambo went to help .... until they turned into evil terrorists.

Syria is a far bigger mess than it would have been if the US and Russia had both kept their fat noses out.

Crimea, if memory serves, was a Muslim area until the Russians did a bit of ethnic cleansing, but it's essentially Russian now.

At the end of the day, the whole thing is down to who makes how much cash, but the propaganda relies on people thinking one side is better than the other.
It all falls down when you realise the lot are a bunch of selfish twats who don't give a flying rat's arse about anything but cash.

Well, no-one's a saint in the shifting world of borders and diplomacy.  Things change.

It would so much easier if it was only  about cash.  There would be a chance of buying them off.

But right now about over inflated egos and nationalism.

Be interesting to see how Biden will follow through.  The Afghanistan withdrawal was so chaotic and people are reeling from that.  Getting into another conflict with Russia is likely to be  far worse as they have proper weapons.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Well, no-one's a saint in the shifting world of borders and diplomacy.  Things change. .

No, it's full of devils - and not a lot has changed for a couple of thousands years and more, so I don't expect a lot this week.

fluffy2560 wrote:

It would so much easier if it was only  about cash.  There would be a chance of buying them off.

It's always about cash, only the source varies - Fossil fuels and arms sale since WWII, but next up it's Rare earth elements, Lithium, and arms sales.

fluffy2560 wrote:

But right now about over inflated egos and nationalism.

Ner - I'll go with egos, but no bugger gives a toss about nationalism - or at least not the ones making money
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson - Ner, it's the first resort of a politician trying to hide how much he's being bribed to start a new conflict.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Be interesting to see how Biden will follow through.

Biden has done three things:
He's made a mess of Israeli and Russian gas supplies to Europe,
sown a lot of discord so sales of expensive US shale gas are going well,
and sold a good few hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons for his paymasters in the US arms industry.

A prediction - He'll claim Putin has backed down, then claim victory and withdraw.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Getting into another conflict with Russia is likely to be  far worse as they have proper weapons.

If you could name one enemy the US has attacked since WWII, please  .... but it has to be one able to hit the US mainland with more than a peashooter.
You see there's a big difference to losing troops to evil commies/terrorists and seeing bombs land on Washington because the money people who bribe politicians into starting wars don't want a bloody nose.
Arlington Cemetery is great for celebrating those who gave up their lives for their politicians' profits, but imagine a condo in New York being damaged by enemy action - It's unthinkable.

You may have guessed by now, I have a rather cynical view of politicians in general - That including Putin and Biden.
In this case, I believe Putin is less guilty (not innocent by a long way), but that's not to be taken as support for him because he's a pretty lousy git who I believe would do whatever it takes to line his pockets.

Fred wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Well, no-one's a saint in the shifting world of borders and diplomacy.  Things change. .

No, it's full of devils - and not a lot has changed for a couple of thousands years and more, so I don't expect a lot this week.

fluffy2560 wrote:

It would so much easier if it was only  about cash.  There would be a chance of buying them off.

It's always about cash, only the source varies - Fossil fuels and arms sale since WWII, but next up it's Rare earth elements, Lithium, and arms sales.

fluffy2560 wrote:

But right now about over inflated egos and nationalism.

Ner - I'll go with egos, but no bugger gives a toss about nationalism - or at least not the ones making money
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson - Ner, it's the first resort of a politician trying to hide how much he's being bribed to start a new conflict.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Be interesting to see how Biden will follow through.

Biden has done three things:
He's made a mess of Israeli and Russian gas supplies to Europe,
sown a lot of discord so sales of expensive US shale gas are going well,
and sold a good few hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons for his paymasters in the US arms industry.

A prediction - He'll claim Putin has backed down, then claim victory and withdraw.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Getting into another conflict with Russia is likely to be  far worse as they have proper weapons.

If you could name one enemy the US has attacked since WWII, please  .... but it has to be one able to hit the US mainland with more than a peashooter.
You see there's a big difference to losing troops to evil commies/terrorists and seeing bombs land on Washington because the money people who bribe politicians into starting wars don't want a bloody nose.
Arlington Cemetery is great for celebrating those who gave up their lives for their politicians' profits, but imagine a condo in New York being damaged by enemy action - It's unthinkable.

You may have guessed by now, I have a rather cynical view of politicians in general - That including Putin and Biden.
In this case, I believe Putin is less guilty (not innocent by a long way), but that's not to be taken as support for him because he's a pretty lousy git who I believe would do whatever it takes to line his pockets.

I had guessed where you were coming from.   

The US has not really had any attacks on its soil unless you  count domestic terrorism with Oklahoma City,  external terrorism with Bin Laden's 9/11 and the attack on the WTC before.      During WW2, there was a possibility of German submarines shelling coastal towns but it would have made no difference ultimately. Too small to make an impact. 

Warfare doesn't have to mean weapons - Trump himself was probably targeted by Putin on social media and he looks like him and his other cult members in the Republican party fell for it.     

Re: Arlington and politics, someone will usually bring up is the politician saying to the soldiers, "some of you may die but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make".   

I cannot see Putin winning this one but there will be a lot of bloody noses.  Putin wants to be in charge and lining his own pockets is part of the process.   He has to be in charge to be untouchable. 

Oh, and don't forget he's already killed people with poison and tried to kill others with nerve agents in the UK.   That's war really. 

BTW, the table the politicians sit at with Putin at one end is 4m long.   It's also a COVID distancing measure for the Putin bubble.  Interestingly Macron was asked to take a test but refused in case they used his DNA.  I'm pretty sure they could get his DNA anytime they wanted. But what would they do with it and more importantly, what does Macron think they would do with it?  Designer nerve agent?

Oh,  before I forget, it's not just oil/gas, it's going to be water as well.  Crimea has a serious water shortage.  Ukraine cut them off from the canal that supplies the area.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Oh, and don't forget he's already killed people with poison and tried to kill others with nerve agents in the UK.   That's war really.

Hadn't forgotten. Much as there seems to be little proof that would stand up in court, it's pretty likely Putin ordered the killings directly.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Interestingly Macron was asked to take a test but refused in case they had his DNA.  I'm pretty sure they could get his DNA anytime they wanted. But what would they do with it and more importantly, what does Macron think they would do with it?  Designer nerve agent?

Make a new US president for 2024?
Putin needs a useless git to win that one because Biden will likely be dead by then and Trump might be locked up.

Fred wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Oh, and don't forget he's already killed people with poison and tried to kill others with nerve agents in the UK.   That's war really.

Hadn't forgotten. Much as there seems to be little proof that would stand up in court, it's pretty likely Putin ordered the killings directly.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Interestingly Macron was asked to take a test but refused in case they had his DNA.  I'm pretty sure they could get his DNA anytime they wanted. But what would they do with it and more importantly, what does Macron think they would do with it?  Designer nerve agent?

Make a new US president for 2024?
Putin needs a useless git to win that one because Biden will likely be dead by then and Trump might be locked up.

Yes, good point - Biden is circling the plughole and Trump will be a bad after taste. Trump might suddenly go down the plughole as well.   God forbid it includes Majorie Taylor Greene as a contender.   Absolute lunatic.

The foreign minister here has said NATO troops are already in Hungary, meaning Hungarian soldiers so  Orban doesn't want any more.  I cannot see Orban being able to keep to that statement and/or promise.

Orban is raring to join Putin's stable of useful idiots.   I am sure Putin's whispering in his ear, of course I love you....and then gets back to sharpening his knives.

Orban has problems, and he knows it.
Explanation - 2 words - William Burns.

As for Greene, I watched a few clips of her on Youtube (disclosure - it was a leftie chanel so possibly cherry picked). I watched more from a selection of news channels.
Phew, what a loonie.