Irritating dating scenario

WillyBaldy wrote:

There's a dating situation happening quite a few times to me and although I've always managed, it is a really annoying issue and I was wondering if anyone had suggestions.

So, you meet a Vietnamese woman for breakfast at a coffee shop. Things seem to go well, we're having a good time, then she makes a few phone calls, and few best friends show up. They get the menu, and order something. In my experience, they expect me to foot the bill. Again, I need to precise because some people jump to conclusions, it's not really about money itself but principle. This is not an okay behaviour by Vietnamese culture standard. I guess because I'm Westerner, 'normal' rules don't apply.

Anyway, this morning when I saw her two friends show up, I paid the bill right away and said I needed to leave soon. After paying the bill, we had a bit of fun but strangely they did not order anything...  Does this happen to any guys here? How do you handle it? I've footed the bills many times before in such situation, it's not such a big deal, but I find it frustrating and I feel a very good woman would not do such a thing, would not see the Westerner as some walking ATM. Now, don't confuse this post with me complaining about Vietnamese people seeing me as an ATM. I've been there before, I know the game, no problem. But for this specific dating pattern, I wonder how you guys deal with it. I think it happens a lot more in the countryside or outside big cities.

PS: I remember having a few dates in the past clearly asking me if it was okay for her to bring a friend or two. This is very acceptable to me and very decent to ask, and I always said yes, if the friends were women 

This story is very familiar. You should run away. Otherwise you will lose money and have many unhappy things. Because Vietnamese culture is not like that. Honest advice!

I don't think it's so black and white. Some women would love showing off a bit while still respecting their Western boyfriend, while others will simply see them as an ATM to abuse. I don't blame a Vietnamese woman for appreciating her Western boyfriend spoiling a friend or two, once in a while, if she asks first. I pick up cues or signals easily and can see the difference between a woman who respects you and one who doesn't. The one who cares for you will be very protective, will ask you before doing anything that might cost you money, and won't be pushy about expecting you to pay for everything. She'll offer to pay once in a while, and hang with people who will invite you often (pay the bill) and not the other way around.

I think we'd be quick to judge if we made our whole mind on a single date, and about this specific date the jury is still out here from my point of view. She didn't show up with friends, so that's a plus, and I still can't be certain she'd expect me to pay for her friends later when they showed up. I asked the question mainly to know how most of you guys handled such a situation, but I have not made my mind and might see her again.

Disclosure: this last post was written after I've met a very "bad girl" this week, who was trying to milk me and asked for a ring (gifts, gifts, gifts!) on our second date (and pretended to cry when I said no, that's after pretending to laugh all the time, oh gosh). Yes, I should be judged on that one, met her through Zalo and the profile was sketchy. Criticism warranted!

The dating scenario here is very similar to Thailand and Indonesia, in that they will invite some friends along to give them security, and they won't expect "cordon bleu" in the menu selection.

Especially if you are an expat, they will think that you can afford it (Thai girls will blurt this truth out, however the Vietnamese will never say that). Rest assured that Vietnamese girls ....... in the main are not intent on emptying your wallet.

As for Asian women from other prosperous economies such as Taiwan etc., they would more likely fulfill your western ideals of "going Dutch" or curtly asking your permission

The best date I had was two weeks ago with a very fine Taiwanese woman. When the bill came and I offered to pay, she answered tongue in cheek "of course I'll accept you pay for me, I'm from Asian". I thought it was a very cool answer and I went on correcting her on her coming from *Asia* and being *Asian*, typical mistake Anyway, there's a huge difference between her and most Vietnamese women I meet here, it's obvious but hard to describe with words.

WillyBaldy wrote:

Canman63 wrote:

I met a nice young lady in danang, she insisted we meet at skybar, lucky for me I googled the place, drinks were the price of a mortgage, I changed locations to highlands coffee.

There's a bar in Saigon with the same name, as far as I remember, and drinks are around 300K!

Same same Willy, for the price of a few drinks, I could spend a few days enjoying myself, I think she wanted pictures for her Facebook page to impress her friends.
But unfortunately for her, no pictures were going to be takin at my expense.

WillyBaldy wrote:

EDIT: Irony aside, it's been a weird week for a few posts. I feel I'm being very clear in my initial post, that I simply wanted to know how some of you are dealing with this whenever it happens. I've repeated the question three times in my initial post. Is my writing so bad? I can't see anywhere where I'm asking to change this person's behaviour? It's a simple question about how you guys handle this situation when it happens, I'm being more curious (and lightly irritated) than anything else. Are people reading in diagonals and making up their own mind about posts? It's almost as bad as a bad date 

Given the advanced age and planetary waistlines of some of the critters here, it's impressive how they can leap with such alacrity straight down your throat, having come to some completely confabulated conclusion... 

I've only had one experience similar to what you describe - my girlfiend asked if her friend could join us for dinner (we were already at some posh Japanese place in D1) as she was nearby. I knew I'd be expected to foot the bill but that was fine by me as my girlfiend is amazing... problem (for me) was her friend turned up with her boyfriend too, and the whole concept of paying for another bloke does not compute for me. At all. I don't care if it's Buddha himself, he can buy his own sodding drinks and food. Guess I'm a sexist... 

Anyway I said as much to the gf, as politely as possible, and told her I'd pay this once but never again.

I hope I do not find myself dating again any time soon, but if I do I think I'll just make it very clear beforehand what I will and will not tolerate.

That's a good story mate. It's funny because the woman from my initial post is actually growing on me. She just came to my place with food she cooked home, and we simply ate. She's got a son at home (single mum) but took the time to come and see me. I told her I'd invite her two friends to "party out" on Saturday but that it would be only this time and I was very clear that I did not like when women invited people without telling me first and expecting me to pay. I was talking about women in general but she got the message

I can tell you my brain is smoking after an hour trying to speak Vietnamese with a non-English speaker. I'm hoping after a few months like this my Vietnamese will improve quite a bit.

WillyBaldy wrote:

That's a good story mate. It's funny because the woman from my initial post is actually growing on me. She just came to my place with food she cooked home, and we simply ate. She's got a son at home (single mum) but took the time to come and see me. I told her I'd invite her two friends to "party out" on Saturday but that it would be only this time and I was very clear that I did not like when women invited people without telling me first and expecting me to pay. I was talking about women in general but she got the message

I can tell you my brain is smoking after an hour trying to speak Vietnamese with a non-English speaker. I'm hoping after a few months like this my Vietnamese will improve quite a bit.

Looks as if you've posted in the wrong thread, my friend.

Doesn't that belong in your thread about bargaining and Vietnamese culture?

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

That's a good story mate. It's funny because the woman from my initial post is actually growing on me. She just came to my place with food she cooked home, and we simply ate. She's got a son at home (single mum) but took the time to come and see me. I told her I'd invite her two friends to "party out" on Saturday but that it would be only this time and I was very clear that I did not like when women invited people without telling me first and expecting me to pay. I was talking about women in general but she got the message

I can tell you my brain is smoking after an hour trying to speak Vietnamese with a non-English speaker. I'm hoping after a few months like this my Vietnamese will improve quite a bit.

Looks as if you've posted in the wrong thread, my friend.

Doesn't that belong in your thread about bargaining and Vietnamese culture?

I like your style, my friend 

WillyBaldy wrote:

I can tell you my brain is smoking after an hour trying to speak Vietnamese with a non-English speaker. I'm hoping after a few months like this my Vietnamese will improve quite a bit.

Vietnamese is so frustrating for me... after nearly 6 months here I'm developing an ear for it and have picked up a fair chunk of vocabulary, but even when I know the right words, and the right order to put them in, what comes out of my mouth is unintelligible to everyone except a few people who can decypher my 'special' dialect... any non-tonal language and I'd be semi-fluent by now.

I can hear (usually) all those different vowel tones but my throat just isn't built to accurately reproduce them.

OTOH I've heard locals speak the lingo like they're chewing rocks underwater but they are somehow magically understood... 

Brick23 wrote:

I can hear (usually) all those different vowel tones but my throat just isn't built to accurately reproduce them.

I've learned a few sounds by repeating the same "sentence" hundreds of times over weeks. I remember when my ex wife told me to repeat "bảy bưởi bụ" (7 big grapefruits) all over again. I was walking in the streets repeating this, then at home, then on the motorbike... until it started making sense. So yeah it's slow for me, one word at a time but if we practice we're gradually going to get there. There's one sound I still can't produce at all, I don't know which one but I know a few words are literally impossible for me. I guess it's going to be my last achievement in my life if ever 

Practice with Google translate. Set it to translate spoken Vietnamese to English. When Google can understand what you say then you're there. It's not easy. Google can be pretty discriminating but it's very patient. 

Another bit of an update, not that I think my dating life is so interesting but it's just interesting cultural stuff I think. So the same woman from the original message came to my place to cook a bit, with her son, and then we went to her friend's house just two minutes from my house. It seems all of them are actually minutes away! They welcomed me with beers, food and so on. I then invited her two friends (and my date) for dinner later. They told me a few times that they'd rotate the invitations, so that next time one of them will pay, and the next time another one will pay and so on. So at dinner, about 7 of them showed up! Some of their kids and a friend and a cool young Vietnamese lady from Boston who was visiting family. I was a little bit taken aback but I knew they were not trying to rip me off, it's the way they go out. The bill came at 1.3M which is totally acceptable because some items on the menu could reach that price only for 2-3 people. Afterwards we went at the karaoke (of course!), drank, ate, and one of the ladies took the bill.

So yeah, I think they're totally decent people and sometimes we need to give people a chance to adapt or have to try to be a bit patient before passing our final judgement. I'm preaching to myself when saying this

WillyBaldy wrote:

Another bit of an update, not that I think my dating life is so interesting but it's just interesting cultural stuff I think. So the same woman from the original message came to my place to cook a bit, with her son, and then we went to her friend's house just two minutes from my house. It seems all of them are actually minutes away! They welcomed me with beers, food and so on. I then invited her two friends (and my date) for dinner later. They told me a few times that they'd rotate the invitations, so that next time one of them will pay, and the next time another one will pay and so on. So at dinner, about 7 of them showed up! Some of their kids and a friend and a cool young Vietnamese lady from Boston who was visiting family. I was a little bit taken aback but I knew they were not trying to rip me off, it's the way they go out. The bill came at 1.3M which is totally acceptable because some items on the menu could reach that price only for 2-3 people. Afterwards we went at the karaoke (of course!), drank, ate, and one of the ladies took the bill.

So yeah, I think they're totally decent people and sometimes we need to give people a chance to adapt or have to try to be a bit patient before passing our final judgement. I'm preaching to myself when saying this

Was this in Saigon or Rach Gia, there is a big difference in attitude between large cities and small cities.

colinoscapee wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

Another bit of an update, not that I think my dating life is so interesting but it's just interesting cultural stuff I think. So the same woman from the original message came to my place to cook a bit, with her son, and then we went to her friend's house just two minutes from my house. It seems all of them are actually minutes away! They welcomed me with beers, food and so on. I then invited her two friends (and my date) for dinner later. They told me a few times that they'd rotate the invitations, so that next time one of them will pay, and the next time another one will pay and so on. So at dinner, about 7 of them showed up! Some of their kids and a friend and a cool young Vietnamese lady from Boston who was visiting family. I was a little bit taken aback but I knew they were not trying to rip me off, it's the way they go out. The bill came at 1.3M which is totally acceptable because some items on the menu could reach that price only for 2-3 people. Afterwards we went at the karaoke (of course!), drank, ate, and one of the ladies took the bill.

So yeah, I think they're totally decent people and sometimes we need to give people a chance to adapt or have to try to be a bit patient before passing our final judgement. I'm preaching to myself when saying this

Was this in Saigon or Rach Gia, there is a big difference in attitude between large cities and small cities.

Yeah all in Rach Gia, more like countryside mentality.

WillyBaldy wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

Another bit of an update, not that I think my dating life is so interesting but it's just interesting cultural stuff I think. So the same woman from the original message came to my place to cook a bit, with her son, and then we went to her friend's house just two minutes from my house. It seems all of them are actually minutes away! They welcomed me with beers, food and so on. I then invited her two friends (and my date) for dinner later. They told me a few times that they'd rotate the invitations, so that next time one of them will pay, and the next time another one will pay and so on. So at dinner, about 7 of them showed up! Some of their kids and a friend and a cool young Vietnamese lady from Boston who was visiting family. I was a little bit taken aback but I knew they were not trying to rip me off, it's the way they go out. The bill came at 1.3M which is totally acceptable because some items on the menu could reach that price only for 2-3 people. Afterwards we went at the karaoke (of course!), drank, ate, and one of the ladies took the bill.

So yeah, I think they're totally decent people and sometimes we need to give people a chance to adapt or have to try to be a bit patient before passing our final judgement. I'm preaching to myself when saying this

Was this in Saigon or Rach Gia, there is a big difference in attitude between large cities and small cities.

Yeah all in Rach Gia, more like countryside mentality.

It's the same way in Ben Tre... People don't expect you to pay everything.

Went to the local clinic and had the female doctor ask me for my Zalo numer at the end because "she was alone in Rach Gia". That's a first!

WillyBaldy wrote:

Went to the local clinic and had the female doctor ask me for my Zalo numer at the end because "she was alone in Rach Gia". That's a first!

I take it you didn't visit the clinic with an ED or STD issue? 

Brick23 wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

Went to the local clinic and had the female doctor ask me for my Zalo numer at the end because "she was alone in Rach Gia". That's a first!

I take it you didn't visit the clinic with an ED or STD issue? 

Even I did I wouldn't admit it, but I don't think it would have stopped them! 

WillyBaldy wrote:

Went to the local clinic and had the female doctor ask me for my Zalo numer at the end because "she was alone in Rach Gia". That's a first!

Well, you could do worse!

WillyBaldy wrote:

Went to the local clinic and had the female doctor ask me for my Zalo numer at the end because "she was alone in Rach Gia". That's a first!

Did she ask you this before or after your digital examination.

colinoscapee wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

Went to the local clinic and had the female doctor ask me for my Zalo numer at the end because "she was alone in Rach Gia". That's a first!

Did she ask you this before or after your digital examination.

While she was grabbing my crotch 

Before or after you coughed?

Here we are almost two months later and I'm still mad as heck. So I'm dating this nice woman, she's a restaurant owner and she's very civilised and decent. I was planning to take her to a little seafood restaurant close to my house, it's a bit expensive on some items because it comes directly from Phu Quoc. Anyway, so she asks me "do you mind if I bring my friend, the one you saw on our first date?".

Well, so here I am, having to answer this. It's either "yes" and I'll be resenting her for putting me in this position, or "no" and then I feel like a cheap bassss-tard. So my answer was "no", that I would invite her there alone but if her friend comes maybe we go somewhere else...

But my main point here is, what the heck is this thing with bringing friends? It's a *date*, do you need to have your friend around? It's not for safety, met the friend before and been alone with my date afterwards for coffee. No, it's just "I love my friend so I'll bring her thanks for the invite by the way".

So, I read from many of you that Vietnamese women "love to go and eat cheap street food" and dates will cost "100K" at most but this has not been my reality at all. I've met different type of women, some rich, some poor, some young, some older, but it's often always the same thing. A single invitation potentially turns into something much more expensive.

What am I doing wrong? Is "stupid" written on my forehead?

PS: I invited this great Taiwanese woman for sushi in Saigon a few weeks back and it cost me USD$70 and I was quite happy because she *did not try* to bring friends. It's not really about money, I'm willing to be generous with my *date*, not her surrounding.

WillyBaldy wrote:

Here we are almost two months later and I'm still mad as heck. So I'm dating this nice woman, she's a restaurant owner and she's very civilised and decent. I was planning to take her to a little seafood restaurant close to my house, it's a bit expensive on some items because it comes directly from Phu Quoc. Anyway, so she asks me "do you mind if I bring my friend, the one you saw on our first date?".

Well, so here I am, having to answer this. It's either "yes" and I'll be resenting her for putting me in this position, or "no" and then I feel like a cheap bassss-tard. So my answer was "no", that I would invite her there alone but if her friend comes maybe we go somewhere else...

But my main point here is, what the heck is this thing with bringing friends? It's a *date*, do you need to have your friend around? It's not for safety, met the friend before and been alone with my date afterwards for coffee. No, it's just "I love my friend so I'll bring her thanks for the invite by the way".

So, I read from many of you that Vietnamese women "love to go and eat cheap street food" and dates will cost "100K" at most but this has not been my reality at all. I've met different type of women, some rich, some poor, some young, some older, but it's often always the same thing. A single invitation potentially turns into something much more expensive.

What am I doing wrong? Is "stupid" written on my forehead?

PS: I invited this great Taiwanese woman for sushi in Saigon a few weeks back and it cost me USD$70 and I was quite happy because she *did not try* to bring friends. It's not really about money, I'm willing to be generous with my *date*, not her surrounding.

I'm sympathetic with you, because I've been in a Similar situation more than once.

On the other hand, it's the way things often go when you are dating someone here.

Only you can set the boundaries, but you also have to be willing to accept the consequences.

If the woman is happier when she is with you and one of her friends and if that makes your overall relationship go better, if you can afford it I say do it

There are definitely a lot of women here who would never dream of asking you to bring along someone else.

How much do you like this woman?

Are you doing more than just dating?

So many variables.

But it's clear to me that you're not enjoying that arrangement  so it's good that you put your foot down.

Unless of course, she's less enthusiastic about you now...

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

But it's clear to me that you're not enjoying that arrangement  so it's good that you put your foot down.

Unless of course, she's less enthusiastic about you now...

The funny thing is, she's sending me messages as if nothing happened. I said "no" to tonight and she's like "oh okay no problem". These women are messing with my head 

PS: Will probably start ghosting her but yeah maybe I'm just not super motivated.

Willybaldy - do not feel cheap and do not feel bad, you need to understand that there are many who want to take advantage of your kindness and respect.  I have gone out with gf and friends from work, and no, I did not pay their bill, they did, no problem.

My gf now wife, we rarely went out to eat with others and yes, the street food was awesome and cheap.  We would buy street food and then go to a coffee bar and get drinks and eat our street food at the coffee shop, no problem. 

Trust me, they know what they are doing and if you are willing to agree, of course they are going to take advantage of you and not think twice about it.  But if you say no, you will find out who is your friend because these people know what they are doing.  Second, when you say no, they now realize your not as stupid as they thought.

vndreamer wrote:

...when you say no, they now realize your not as stupid as they thought.

Or as desperate...

😁

WillyBaldy wrote:

The funny thing is, she's sending me messages as if nothing happened. I said "no" to tonight and she's like "oh okay no problem". These women are messing with my head 

PS: Will probably start ghosting her but yeah maybe I'm just not super motivated.

My take: She sounds cool with you making decisions. Which, from my experience, it is expected for men to make decisions here. Be happy with that. You are the man, your role is doing man things.

Next, my approach would be up front with her and explain the rule:
"I hope you didn't mind that I only wanted to have dinner with you last night. Sometimes I like to be alone with you. Other times it is fun to go out with your friends."  Direct + romantic and no bridge burned.

Maybe you don't need to object specifically about spending money on the freeloaders, at least not yet. (But when that time comes, be up front about your budget. Demonstrates you are responsible with money, yes?)

Then, be flexible doing things she likes. Because if this goes long term, you already know her friends are part of her life. Like next week you could say, "Let's go to [cheap place] and invite your friends". She will appreciate you for wanting to make her happy. And hopefully setting precedent for future cheaper group gathering venues. 

Thanks for all the suggestions. Since she paid for some street food before and we had a few dates alone, I really think she just wanted her friend to be around because it would make her very happy. I think she doesn't really care about money (her dad has a car, her brother is a doctor) so she probably didn't even realise the dilemma... I guess I was just upset at having to say no and feel cheap  

@gobot I agree with your strategy. I think I'll invite her and her friend at some not so expensive place and go from there 

WillyBaldy wrote:

. I think she doesn't really care about money (her dad has a car, her brother is a doctor) so she probably didn't even realise the dilemma... I guess I was just upset at having to say no and feel cheap

Almost all Vietnamese women know the price of the restaurants and the ballpark figure of the meal before they set out to eat and to invite people to be their guests.  Rich or poor, care about money or not, they all know how much everything costs.  Bringing a guest along to an expensive date night is not a proof of her attitude about money but rather her lack of concern for the host.

WillyBaldy wrote:

I said "no" to tonight and she's like "oh okay no problem".

I rest my case.

Ciambella wrote:

Bringing a guest along to an expensive date night is not a proof of her attitude about money but rather her lack of concern for the host.

That's a very good point. Now, you've made me angry again! 

Indeed, the dating scene is a bit "complicated".

Whatever happened to just going out and having a good time? 

WillyBaldy wrote:

The funny thing is, she's sending me messages as if nothing happened. I said "no" to tonight and she's like "oh okay no problem". These women are messing with my head 

Maybe you're overthinking it. She asked, you said no, she said OK... so why make a big deal of it?

You stuck to your guns and she probably respects you for that. Vietnamese women are shrewd, but often completely straightforward. They are also the most wonderful creatures on earth, so I would humbly suggest that you try not to stress about a few dollars here and there, consider what you are getting in return and be grateful 

Unless of course you are a world-class beauty yourself? 

I asked a young woman I'd known for a couple of months to go with me to a fair they had at 23/9 park, which is where I first met her.  There was a market there and she wanted to look at dresses and eventually asked me to buy her one.  Since the prices were nothing to me, I did so, but I didn't ask her out again, since it appeared she considered me a money source more than having any real attraction. 

On the other hand, I went out a couple of times with a somewhat older woman and she paid for our meal the first time, since she invited me.  The second time I invited her and I paid, but she actually offered 50-50.  Then, months later, she invited me on a trip to Mũi Né with her and her boss (he owned some hotels and she managed the one in Mũi Né) and I had two nights free at the hotel and all my meals paid for.  Plus a detailed tour of properties in Mũi Né from her boss.

So it can vary greatly.

Brick23 wrote:

so I would humbly suggest that you try not to stress about a few dollars here and there,

The thing is, it's really not about money, it's about principle.

WillyBaldy wrote:

Brick23 wrote:

so I would humbly suggest that you try not to stress about a few dollars here and there,

The thing is, it's really not about money, it's about principle.

Oh I get that, but when I look back on the similar experience I wrote about earlier in the thread, I start to think that maybe I could have handled it more graciously. Vietnamese are very sociable, it's just natural that they want to share experiences with their friends. Took me a while to grasp that my girlfiend wasn't just milking me, she genuinely just wanted to share her happiness with her bff and was baffled by my being a bit of an ass about it. 

And of course it depends on the kind of date you are going on and what stage of the relationship you've got to. Not to mince words, have you taken this woman to bed yet? If not she may well be puzzled as to why not. Make sure she knows what you want and make it plain. Maybe she thought you were not seriously interested in her and she was doing you a favour by introducing you to another lady?

Apologies for the unasked-for advice but just my thoughts given what you've said.

Best of luck!

Brick23 wrote:

Not to mince words, have you taken this woman to bed yet? If not she may well be puzzled as to why not. Make sure she knows what you want and make it plain.

My Goodness are we in the same country? It seems that all women around me either want to get married first, or want me to tell them I love them (after three dates) before going to the evasive next stage. There's something I'm doing wrong and honestly I think I'm too much of a gentleman for this country 

WillyBaldy wrote:

My Goodness are we in the same country? It seems that all women around me either want to get married first, or want me to tell them I love them (after three dates) before going to the evasive next stage. There's something I'm doing wrong and honestly I think I'm too much of a gentleman for this country 

Well my experience so far is that Vietnamese women hate wasting time, and are spectacularly forthright and practical in most all matters. Yes, she's going to want some kind of comittment from you, but if you can offer her what she wants she'll make sure you're happy...

Have you noticed that every other hotel in the country has a sign outside clearly displaying their hourly rates for rooms? These people are at it like rabbits 24/7. When in Rome etc...