Bargaining and Vietnamese culture question

WillyBaldy wrote:

I'm planning on renting a motorbike in Rach Gia and my landlord told me she had an employee who was renting a motorbike. I had my doubts about prices but I tested it, it was fine, an automatic, a bit old Nouvo bike.

After the test, I asked the employee how much. She said 2 millions. I told her I could get an Airblade for 1.5M in Saigon, made no sense. I offered 1 million, then 1.2M. She just said no and moved away. I must admit I felt a little frustrated she took me for such a fool. I complained to the landlord that her asking price was a bit crazy.

My sixth sense is telling me that I should *not* get irritated or angry and that in Vietnamese culture, offering a price that's way too high is not really seen as an insult, like taking the other person for a fool. I don't know if I'm right but I was wondering if someone had an opinion on the matter. I'm sure it won't be the last time I get "crazy" offers. Was it because I was a Westerner that she went fishing like this?

All due to you being a foreigner. You can buy and older Nouvo for about 7 million, that may be your better option.

https://xe.chotot.com/kien-giang/mua-ban-xe-may

Well if I can find this in Rach Gia, that's definitely a great option. Even 10M and resell for 5M would be great,

WillyBaldy wrote:

My sixth sense is telling me that I should *not* get irritated or angry and that in Vietnamese culture, offering a price that's way too high is not really seen as an insult, like taking the other person for a fool. I don't know if I'm right but I was wondering if someone had an opinion on the matter. I'm sure it won't be the last time I get "crazy" offers. Was it because I was a Westerner that she went fishing like this?

Not because you're a Westerner, but because you're a Westerner in an area where there aren't many foreigners, because you're a single man who can pay top rental price for one of the nicest places in the area, stay for half a year without the need for a roommate.

Not because you're a Westerner, but because the grapevine recognises a foreigner with thick wallet and without local connection.

Your offer of 1M for an old bike was refused.  You then up the ante to 1.2M after telling her her you could get a better one for 1.5M.  There's no reason for her to accept any counter-counter offer when you're readily to acquiesce, was there?

Probably 1.5m is the right price for a 1 month rental...

Ciambella wrote:

[
Your offer of 1M for an old bike was refused.  You then up the ante to 1.2M after telling her her you could get a better one for 1.5M.  There's no reason for her to accept any counter-counter offer when you're readily to acquiesce, was there?

You're right but isn't a bit awkward that she would not budge from her 2M? She could have offered 1.8M as her "last:" offer no? I mean, do you think she thought I'd be desperate and go back to her agreeing with her 2M later? The way I see it, it's a missed opportunity for her.

panda7 wrote:

Probably 1.5m is the right price for a 1 month rental...

Depends on the bike, can't apply this number to all bikes. For SH Mode, it will be too low.

WillyBaldy wrote:

You're right but isn't a bit awkward that she would not budge from her 2M? She could have offered 1.8M as her "last:" offer no? I mean, do you think she thought I'd be desperate and go back to her agreeing with her 2M later? The way I see it, it's a missed opportunity for her.

Yep, it is, but some people are greedier than others, and she probably thinks you have deep enough pockets that you'll eventually pay her price to avoid the hassle of searching for other bikes.

Awkward?   Only in our Western mind.   If the deal falls through, she would tell people how cheap a foreigner you actually are, the truth notwithstanding.   Which is a good thing to be known IMO.  Being known for your generosity and easy to deal with is a bad thing when you live alone and without a local support system.

Isn't it her employee who is renting the bike ? He may have said to her 2m or its just not worth it for me...

Ciambella wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

You're right but isn't a bit awkward that she would not budge from her 2M? She could have offered 1.8M as her "last:" offer no? I mean, do you think she thought I'd be desperate and go back to her agreeing with her 2M later? The way I see it, it's a missed opportunity for her.

Yep, it is, but some people are greedier than others, and she probably thinks you have deep enough pocket that you'll eventually pay her price to avoid the hassle of searching for other bikes.

Awkward?   Only in our Western mind.   If the deal falls through, she would tell people how cheap a foreigner you actually are, the truth notwithstanding.   Which is a good thing to be known IMO.  Being known for your generosity and easy to deal with is a bad thing when you live alone and without a local support system.

I guess I'm not used to bargaining sessions where one person won't budge from their initial offer. That would lead too many world wars in diplomacy 

panda7 wrote:

Isn't it her employee who is renting the bike ? He may have said to her 2m or its just not worth it for me...

I think they never discussed prices, and had to deal with her (the employee) directly. Maybe the landlord was a little bit "in" too, knowing they'd ask me for a lot but why not, if I got deep pockets. But I've been in contact with the daughter of the landlords for months, she's in Australia, speaks perfect English, and I'm sure they're not trying to rip me off. Anyway, the daughter isn't aware of what transpired.

The landlord has another contact, this one willing to rent for 1M a month, it's an automatic bike. I get the feeling it will barely move or have no breaks but I'll give it a try this afternoon. My choices are quite limited. Also, my friends called a few rental shops in Rach Gia and they all said they won't rent to anyone without a driving license. So there goes that option in Rach Gia.

WillyBaldy wrote:

I guess I'm not used to bargaining sessions where one person won't budge from their initial offer. That would lead too many world wars in diplomacy 

The people who do not like bargaining always declare that their price is firm.  If she didn't say that right off the bat, then she's not a good businesswoman.

Ciambella wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

I guess I'm not used to bargaining sessions where one person won't budge from their initial offer. That would lead too many world wars in diplomacy 

The people who do not like bargaining always declare that their price is firm.  If she didn't say that right off the bat, then she's not a good businesswoman.

Could be the language too, I would not understand "final price" in Vietnamese    But I'm so stubborn, I'd buy a xe dap dien Martin 107 (for grandpas) before going back to her, tail between my legs 

Like I mentioned in your taxi post, if you start nickel and diming in Southeast Asia, you usually waste time and make yourself miserable. If the 2 million is for a monthly rental, you could have offered to pay 500k for a week. That way you would now have wheels and be able to ride around and look for a better deal somewhere else.

Focus on R & R, not $ and Đ.

johnross23 wrote:

Like I mentioned in your taxi post, if you start nickel and diming in Southeast Asia, you usually waste time and make yourself miserable. If the 2 million is for a monthly rental, you could have offered to pay 250k for a week. That way you would now have wheels and be able to ride around and look for a better deal somewhere else.

Focus on R & R, not $ and Đ.

I assume you mean 500k, unless my maths skills are really bad

The 2M was for one month. Like rents, when you rent for shorter, the price is higher. Probably would be a million a week, or 250K a day. At these prices, a xe om can do for the moment.

PS: Not that it really matters, but I'm definitely not nickel and diming in Vietnam, you should have seen me in D1 last week. I'm actually going a bit overboard. But principles are important to me, and the taxi story was not really about money but about the driver getting paid twice for the same trip. He knew it was wrong, I didn't care about the nickels. I think your misread my post in taxi thread, I never complained about losing money, read again, I did not lose money, I made money. I simply told him "no double dipping dude", it was not a big hassle to say a few words.

WillyBaldy wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

[
Your offer of 1M for an old bike was refused.  You then up the ante to 1.2M after telling her her you could get a better one for 1.5M.  There's no reason for her to accept any counter-counter offer when you're readily to acquiesce, was there?

You're right but isn't a bit awkward that she would not budge from her 2M? She could have offered 1.8M as her "last:" offer no? I mean, do you think she thought I'd be desperate and go back to her agreeing with her 2M later? The way I see it, it's a missed opportunity for her.

I hope you get the bike (and the license) you need...and welcome, BTW! 

In my not-so-humble opinion, a person must be willing to walk away, in order to negotiate, especially in Vietnam.

She wanted 2 million, you offered 1 million, she refused?

Do I have that right?

That was the time to walk away.

Once you (apparently) started to waver, that was the end of bargaining for her.

Also, I've personally found that the "I can get it cheaper elsewhere" approach doesn't work well in negotiating here.

I believe that approach is received as a criticism of the person instead of a discussion of proper pricing.

My gut tells me that your counter offer of 1 million was probably reasonable enough that, had you politely thanked her for the offer and turned to walk away, she would have given you a counter offer.

Or not! 

Hope to cross paths sometime soon!

Very interesting angle to that story, you might be right my friend. I wish I could turn the clock back and give it a try. Interesting about the perceived criticism. I'll probably get better at this with time. It's like fishing, if you give a big wank you lose the fish.

WillyBaldy wrote:

Well if I can find this in Rach Gia, that's definitely a great option. Even 10M and resell for 5M would be great,

I posted a Cho Tot link, but the Expat Blog system seems to have an issue with it.

WillyBaldy wrote:

johnross23 wrote:

Like I mentioned in your taxi post, if you start nickel and diming in Southeast Asia, you usually waste time and make yourself miserable. If the 2 million is for a monthly rental, you could have offered to pay 250k for a week. That way you would now have wheels and be able to ride around and look for a better deal somewhere else.

Focus on R & R, not $ and Đ.

I assume you mean 500k, unless my maths skills are really bad

The 2M was for one month. Like rents, when you rent for shorter, the price is higher. Probably would be a million a week, or 250K a day. At these prices, a xe om can do for the moment.

Yeah, I just realized my math mistake and had a chance to correct it above.

Anyway, do what you feel obviously. There are some guys here in Vung Tau who buy a $20 "push bike" and ride that around. It's good for your health as well.

Cheers 

johnross23 wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

johnross23 wrote:

Like I mentioned in your taxi post, if you start nickel and diming in Southeast Asia, you usually waste time and make yourself miserable. If the 2 million is for a monthly rental, you could have offered to pay 250k for a week. That way you would now have wheels and be able to ride around and look for a better deal somewhere else.

Focus on R & R, not $ and Đ.

I assume you mean 500k, unless my maths skills are really bad

The 2M was for one month. Like rents, when you rent for shorter, the price is higher. Probably would be a million a week, or 250K a day. At these prices, a xe om can do for the moment.

Yeah, I just realized my math mistake and had a chance to correct it above.

Anyway, do what you feel obviously. There are some guys here in Vung Tau who buy a $20 "push bike" and ride that around. It's good for your health as well.

Not overly impressive turning up to take your date out on a pushbike, lol.

colinoscapee wrote:

johnross23 wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

I assume you mean 500k, unless my maths skills are really bad

The 2M was for one month. Like rents, when you rent for shorter, the price is higher. Probably would be a million a week, or 250K a day. At these prices, a xe om can do for the moment.

Yeah, I just realized my math mistake and had a chance to correct it above.

Anyway, do what you feel obviously. There are some guys here in Vung Tau who buy a $20 "push bike" and ride that around. It's good for your health as well.

Not overly impressive turning up to take your date out on a pushbike, lol.

My ex wife keeps on telling me to buy these Martin electric bikes but I definitely don't see myself picking up any woman on that. The bike from E.T. was not meant for dating 

I miss Grab, it's in Saigon and Can Tho but not here yet, and probably never will.

colinoscapee wrote:

johnross23 wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

I assume you mean 500k, unless my maths skills are really bad

The 2M was for one month. Like rents, when you rent for shorter, the price is higher. Probably would be a million a week, or 250K a day. At these prices, a xe om can do for the moment.

Yeah, I just realized my math mistake and had a chance to correct it above.

Anyway, do what you feel obviously. There are some guys here in Vung Tau who buy a $20 "push bike" and ride that around. It's good for your health as well.

Not overly impressive turning up to take your date out on a pushbike, lol.

Well, yeah, that was the point of my first post; go ahead and spend the money, rent a nice motorbike, don't worry too much about the cost and feel a bit happier. In the meantime, you can look for a better deal elsewhere.

Also, do they go on dates in this Rach Gia place? 

johnross23 wrote:

Also, do they go on dates in this Rach Gia place? 

Only if you promise to get married 

To be a good negotiator you just need to know what the correct price is...

panda7 wrote:

To be a good negotiator you just need to know what the correct price is...

Totally agree, knowing what something is worth saves a lot of time and energy.

Well, a little update to my story. The same lady had a second bike for me to try. Another Nouvo. This one, the left break was not working and the body would shake at higher speed... I think the price was either 1M or 1.5M... After this, in light of all info I got today about renting a motorbike in Rach Gia, I decided to go for the one at 2M. Yep, she wins, totally. She's walking on my body like a used carpet... but I'll get a nice, fully working motorbike!

WillyBaldy wrote:

Well, a little update to my story. The same lady had a second bike for me to try. Another Nouvo. This one, the left break was not working and the body would shake at higher speed... I think the price was either 1M or 1.5M... After this, in light of all info I got today about renting a motorbike in Rach Gia, I decided to go for the one at 2M. Yep, she wins, totally. She's walking on my body like a used carpet... but I'll get a nice, fully working motorbike!

Man, you drive a hard bargain...

Yeah, worse bargaining wussy ever!

They ought to throw you a Welcome to the Neighbourhood party.

WillyBaldy wrote:

She's walking on my body like a used carpet... but I'll get a nice, fully working motorbike!

I thought you said it was an old motorbike?  But I guess everything is nice when compared to a non functioning heap of plastic and chrome.

I take back my earlier opinion of her as a not very good businesswoman.

Ciambella wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

She's walking on my body like a used carpet... but I'll get a nice, fully working motorbike!

I thought you said it was an old motorbike?  But I guess everything is nice when compared to a non functioning heap of plastic and chrome.

I take back my earlier opinion of her as a not very good businesswoman.

Well, I've been told that they don't make Nouvo anymore? But it *felt* like a new one. Perfect breaks and power and steering. It's like relationships, you often realise after what you had, but in this case at least it was not too late    Rach Gia is definitely no Saigon!

WillyBaldy wrote:

Well, a little update to my story. The same lady had a second bike for me to try. Another Nouvo. This one, the left break was not working and the body would shake at higher speed... I think the price was either 1M or 1.5M... After this, in light of all info I got today about renting a motorbike in Rach Gia, I decided to go for the one at 2M. Yep, she wins, totally. She's walking on my body like a used carpet... but I'll get a nice, fully working motorbike!

Vietnam 1- Canuck 0

WillyBaldy wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

johnross23 wrote:

Yeah, I just realized my math mistake and had a chance to correct it above.

Anyway, do what you feel obviously. There are some guys here in Vung Tau who buy a $20 "push bike" and ride that around. It's good for your health as well.

Not overly impressive turning up to take your date out on a pushbike, lol.

My ex wife keeps on telling me to buy these Martin electric bikes but I definitely don't see myself picking up any woman on that. The bike from E.T. was not meant for dating 

I miss Grab, it's in Saigon and Can Tho but not here yet, and probably never will.

You probably can start your own transportation company there.... You will not need to rent a bike or bargainig no price.... LOL

So, to close this saga, the woman told me she wanted 6 months *in advance* when I went to pickup the motorbike. I was very mad but tried to keep it as cool as I could, and told her no f* way. The landlord/employer was there and she kind of mediated and put some sense in the woman, so 2M per month was OK at the end... but wow, that would have been a terrible check mate.

There's a  Vietnamese proverb to describe that woman's behaviour:  "Được đằng chân lân đằng đầu":  give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

(Don't ever try Google Translate on proverbs!)

WillyBaldy wrote:

So, to close this saga, the woman told me she wanted 6 months *in advance* when I went to pickup the motorbike. I was very mad but tried to keep it as cool as I could, and told her no f* way. The landlord/employer was there and she kind of mediated and put some sense in the woman, so 2M per month was OK at the end... but wow, that would have been a terrible check mate.

Vietnam 1- Canuck 1

Ciambella wrote:

There's a  Vietnamese proverb to describe that woman's behaviour:  "Được đằng chân lân đằng đầu":  give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

(Don't ever try Google Translate on proverbs!)

Thank you... I will add this proverb quote to my list...

Ciambella wrote:

There's a  Vietnamese proverb to describe that woman's behaviour:  "Được đằng chân lân đằng đầu":  give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

(Don't ever try Google Translate on proverbs!)

Exactly and that is why you never give in.  Do your homework and know what your getting into BEFORE you engage bargaining, for just about everything.  The first time I went to VN, the hotel I stayed at offered a weekly motorbike rental and I was expecting to be fleeced.  So when I met the motobike owner, yes, he started high, but he came down and I accepted only because I did not want to rent a taxi multiple times a day and I wanted to the freedom to travel and thus, it was a win win for both. 

However, before I went back to VN, did my homework and bought a used Nouva in Saigon and picked it up the day I arrived from the airport.  The guy gave me a helmet, full tank of gas and 1 month warranty on any issues.  The price was reasonable for a used bike and I used that bike for 4 years before we moved to the USA.   

My advice, if you are living in VN or spending a lot time there, buy a used motobike, you will not regret it.  But do your homework!

Lastly, when we traveled far in VN and could not take the motobike, have a VN wife does wonders.  Yes, we rented motobikes in Nha Trang and DaNang by the week and she negotiated great rates.

BTW - with respect to the high prices, yes, they are insulting you and think you are stupid.  The few times I have been in that situation, I tell them to FO and smile.  No use negotiating with a fool and move on.  Sure, they will get mad and call you selfish and?  Why would you care?  They are mad because you just made them look like a fool and that you are smarter than them and they need to safe face.  For those who do that, i tell my wife, tell them they are extremely selfish, disrespectful and lack any education or self respect.