Hi
I am a foreigner working in Hanoi. I have bought a apartment previously and engaged a subcontractor to carry out some cabinet works for my bedrooms, kitchen, bathrooms etc.
There was no signed quotation. They just emailed to me the quotation, I checked the rates and items and work is commenced by way of a deposit into their bank account.
There are 2 parts - an initial quotation amount about 128 million vnd.
Along the way, there were some additional works which I also agreed to.
The final quotation is 149 milion vnd. (additional works about 21 million vnd.
Of the additional 21 million vnd works, I am willing to pay 16 million vnd.
However, she is adamant that she is paid the full amount of 21 million. Her reason is because the works has been fully completed.
However I want to deduct some money because of 2 main issues.
1. The back board behind the cabinet touching the wall is originally 6 mm thick. When I first met this subcon, I requested them to make the cabinets same color inside (which means the back board color and the outside of the cabinet is the same color)I showed them the showroom and they said they can do it.
2. 1 week before actual production, she realised that she cannot do it and informed me accordingly. Her reason is the 6 mm board may have mould after long time. Of course, no owner wants the mould.
She proposed aluminium sheet but it is not nice to me so I rejected. (I already informed her early in the project)
I asked her what are the next options, she said 9 mm thick wood or 18 mm thick wood. Unfortunately, 9 mm wood is out of stock and if we want it, we have to wait 3 weeks. I am a foreigner living in a rented apartment. Every day of delay cost me money. In this case I felt she could have planned better. Because work has to proceed and I don't want to wait, I chose the 18 mm wood which is higher priced and takes up more space. Imagine if you the foreigner in this case which option will you choose, 9 mm or 18 mm.
Both choices are bad. Her mistake become my problem basically.
Now she claimed that because I confirmed to her, it is totally not her fault. And she do not agree to me deducting the 3 million (which is 50-50 split for the cost due to increase in thickness from 6 mm to 18 mm)
The other 2 million is for lack of cleaning and removal of permanent marks on the floor. the dust from the wood is so much and so bad that my cleaner and me spent many days cleaning. And when they started the cabinet works, the floor is mostly good and free of marks and defects. Now there are quite a few number of marks that cannot be removed.
She totally don't agree to my deduction for this 5 million. I am willing to pay the rest of 16 million. but she is totally not open to my suggestion. I am also equally insistent not to pay more than 16 million because I felt she has some wrong in this matter. Both of us have negotiated many times.
Now because it is a stalemate, she threaten me that she will take out the cabinet works by this weekend. I feel there is a possibility she may try to break the front door or damage it. I am discussing with some lawyers to see how to enforce punishment to her and the worker whom carry out the deed. But I really do not have much faith in the local legal system and police.
I do not feel comfortable about the present situation but I do not want to give in to hooliganism. No body should be threatened like that. Besides, I am pretty convicted she is wrong in some aspects. If you do wrong, you just have to pay for your mistakes. I hate it extremely when people do not admit their mistakes.
I know it sounds stupid. Even if there may be risk or harm to myself, I do not want to pay her. But please advise me what I can really do in this case besides seeking a lawyer. I mean even if I get a lawyer, my door may be broken and it will take weeks or months to get a decision from the lousy legal system locally to ask her to pay. The police seem quite bad too so unless I have no choice, I would not want to go to them for help. though a few lawyers keep on asking me to register with the police about the oncoming meeting on Sat. Does anyone knows what is the law (and how easily it can enforced) with regards to criminal behaviour like trespassing, harming others and damaging property? I want to see this person jailed if she instruct her workers to break down my front door.
Regards
PS: does anyone know what is a reasonable hourly market rate for lawyer fees in Vietnam? I am afraid the cost may also balloon after engaging.
PS2: can I jail her based just on the threats? Threats are also a form of criminal intent?
Receive threats to remove cabinets from apartment if work not paid up
I would've broken the job into several phases. That way if you weren't happy with one phase, you could've stopped at that time. $6500 is a huge amount to contract at one time in Vietnam. The possibility of something going wrong was enormous. You also needed to get everything in writing in both languages, perhaps supported with drawings and lists of materials. It sounds like a large amount of the specifications were verbal. That in itself was an invitation to disaster.
You are at an extreme disadvantage from square one because of your non-citizen status. You knew the contractor would receive preferential treatment from the legal system and so did the contractor.
How much have you paid? I couldn't find that anywhere.
I did contract electrical engineering for 35 years. The best way to not get screwed is by getting incremental payments against well-documented goals.
It's my experience that lawyers just make the problem more expensive. You might visit with one just to find if you have any rights at all, and that's it.
After lawyer fees your probably better off just to pay the 5 mil. I understand you don't want to pay it on principle, but you are a foreigner in a foreign country and you're not likely to get any justice here even with a lawyer.
Why do I get the funny feeling you are not the offended party in this transaction? From what I can tell, you have paid nothing for a huge amount of work. And are you leveraging their hope to get paid against some petty details, hoping for a discount? I too have been owned by my own monies.
We are only hearing one side of this argument.
Thou doth protest too much.
FWIW, I would not just [i]talk the talk[i] but hurry and deposit those 16,000.000 VND.
TBH, I have no pattience for people who owe me money and talk and promise but never actually do make payments.
Next, it will be down to $ 120.
While I fail to understand the technical issue (there are potent anti mold chemicaals in small bottles available overseas), get it over witth.
Withholding the 16 million is a bad move. In the U.S., you might face a mechanic's lien against the property.
After half a year of construction I have to state in consternation that you must be lucky to find good craftsmen in Vietnam (only about 30% good craftsmen and vendors in our case) . The problem is not mainly a lack of skill but a lack of interest in everything.
It's not only the lack of work but also the disrespect for other people's property.
As examples of many: We received handmade real wood furniture (we were lucky with this craftsman, in contrast to the OP 
). A craftsman who had to repair something at the house put a wet drink cup on such a piece of furniture and ruined it before we could use it for the first time.
Unmotivated craftsmen who had to repair something left a completely dirty wall behind. Etc.
If you say that you will not pay the remaining amount before the defects have been repaired, they will be repaired. But the result is still poor.
You simply have to accept that the quality of craftsmanship in Vietnam is far below Western standards.
I am only happy when the craftsmen leave the construction site. Then I will repair the defects myself or hire someone to do it for me.
The few million dong I lose are not worth it to me to deal with unmotivated craftsmen.
What have I learned?
Buy the cheapest available, because the most expensive is not much better.
Andy Passenger wrote:After half a year of construction I have to state in consternation that you must be lucky to find good craftsmen in Vietnam (only about 30% good craftsmen and vendors in our case) . The problem is not mainly a lack of skill but a lack of interest in everything.
It's not only the lack of work but also the disrespect for other people's property.
As examples of many: We received handmade real wood furniture (we were lucky with this craftsman, in contrast to the OP
Unmotivated craftsmen who had to repair something left a completely dirty wall behind. Etc.
If you say that you will not pay the remaining amount before the defects have been repaired, they will be repaired. But the result is still poor.
You simply have to accept that the quality of craftsmanship in Vietnam is far below Western standards.
I am only happy when the craftsmen leave the construction site. Then I will repair the defects myself or hire someone to do it for me.
The few million dong I lose are not worth it to me to deal with unmotivated craftsmen.
What have I learned?
Buy the cheapest available, because the most expensive is not much better.
Most of the work done here is not by a person who has gone to college or done an aprenticeship. Most of the workmanship is below par.
Articles to help you in your expat project in Hanoi
If you're jetting off to Asia's beloved S-shaped nation, take care of booking the best accommodation ...
Historic, beautiful, and full of charm. Phrases like this are all synonymous with the wonderful city of Hanoi. As ...
If you are planning on staying in Vietnam for a significant amount of time, buying a condo or getting involved in ...
Hai Phong's real estate market has been developing rapidly in recent years. Expats from around the world have ...
Formerly known as Thang Long, Vietnam's present capital city was renamed Hanoi in 1831. This enchanting ...
With its economy on the rise and a plethora of exciting and innovative projects in the pipeline, Hanoi should be ...
