MM2H: how long did it take for you?

7:3 ratio is income split between principal and spouse and possibly not between primary and secondary income streams?

topazar :

However why are you saying they didnot respond to point #1? Insufficient source of primary income might mean you get $1 , and the rest is being supplemental and accepted per their answer.

My question to MM2H office was this:
"For a 60 years old applicant who is unemployed and not receiving a pension yet, can you accept for your financial requirement a monthly dividend paid from the investments or a payment from a rental of a house in the amount of RM10,000/month?"

Their answer was this:
"Yes, in case of insufficient primary source of income, applicants can support themselves with rental, interest or dividend from investment and et cetera (secondary source)."

He didn't noticed that an applicant in my question is unemployed and this means that an applicant doesn't have a primary source of income, which by their definition  can be only something paid by a government or a private corporation. Secondary source can be "rental, interest or dividend from investment and et cetera". So, an applicant in my question has only secondary source, but not primary. Such applicant is unacceptable for this program.

I really doubt that they would accept $1 for a primary income.  :)  "Primary" means "major part" of the RM10,000/month.

I wonder what do rich people do in this case? Rich people, who only live on their investments? Why would Malaysia block these people from spending their money here?

topazar :

BTW this is exactly my case as I am not yet pensioned, and while being submitted last year, it was accepted up to "Pending Committee Approval" status with no further questions

So, what was your primary source of income in your application? Are you still employed?

Gravitas :

7:3 ratio is income split between principal and spouse and possibly not between primary and secondary income streams?

Your understanding is correct.
"If the applicant is unable to meet the RM10,000 off-shore income, he/she may submit income from spouse to support the application. However, the applicant's income should exceed the spouse with a ratio of 7:3."

expat000 :

I wonder what do rich people do in this case? Rich people, who only live on their investments? Why would Malaysia block these people from spending their money here?

They probably look at how rich the people are...If they are bringing in £1million/annually in investment income they will be looked at very differently than some that is barely bringing in £2000. That's how it works for the rich.

expat000 :
Gravitas :

7:3 ratio is income split between principal and spouse and possibly not between primary and secondary income streams?

Your understanding is correct.
"If the applicant is unable to meet the RM10,000 off-shore income, he/she may submit income from spouse to support the application. However, the applicant's income should exceed the spouse with a ratio of 7:3."

Still raises the issue of why the ratio even matters. Let's say the applicant makes RM8000 - and the spouse makes RM20,000. What business is it of Immigration/the Malaysian Government the ratio of spousal incomes? I don't comprehend the need for the ratio differential at all.

And what if the applicant has multiple spouses...does the 7:3 ratio apply to each one or to the whole harem?  ;-)

Yes I think scraping in with 10k of secondary income is not optimal. But showing a high level liquid assets (much above 350k or 500k) would be more beneficial.

Mm2h qualification is a big beauty parade.

That is where Agents are very helpful and worth engaging if borderline. They guide the application.

Own applicants should certainly explain their overall wealth in their motivation letter.

The respondent did answer correctly because they had no idea apart from dividend or rental what other income might exist.

cinnamonape :

Still raises the issue of why the ratio even matters. Let's say the applicant makes RM8000 - and the spouse makes RM20,000. What business is it of Immigration/the Malaysian Government the ratio of spousal incomes? I don't comprehend the need for the ratio differential at all.

And what if the applicant has multiple spouses...does the 7:3 ratio apply to each one or to the whole harem?  ;-)

It's to make application possible for more people (couples). Discriminates singles though

In your example perhaps the one earning 20k should be the Principle? But both would fall under the required Split (rather than ratio - 7 + 3 = 10 or 3 +7 = 10)

It's a positive offer from the Malaysian government especially compared to the harder criteria that were mooted before the election

Approval is on a case by case basis which is why motivation letter is so important

Gravitas :
cinnamonape :

Still raises the issue of why the ratio even matters. ...I don't comprehend the need for the ratio differential at all.

It's to make application possible for more people (couples).

How does the ratio make it possible for more applicants? Allowing a second source surely does...but not the 7:3 ratio. For example, a couple with RM5000 each would cross the thresh hold but fail the ratio test. It seems to me the ratio actually eliminates many applicants.  Even if we allow for the possibility that what they really mean is that one applicant have at least RM7000 with the spouse providing the remainder to get past the post.

As to why the higher salaried spouse may not want to be the Primary applicant I can think of several reasons...still working, not wanting to personally submit the FD, the main applicant is willing to do the footwork to make the application, etc.

Well I guess the government has to set the boundary somewhere* and the person with 5k under old rules could not apply anyway.

It's positive change for many people being able to take additional spousal income into consideration.

Yes it is clear the split could be 7k + 3k to qualifying at 10k requirement.

People can find problems or solutions to challenges. This change is a solution for many as 3k of additional household income is now useful.

Well done Federal government. Don't knock progress

(*quite honestly if the 5k 5k couple wanted to qualify they could investigate having 2k pass from the spouse to the principle to achieve a perfect 7k 3k split).

Some families are cash rich and income weak and the new criteria recognises this.

As mentioned elsewhere the motivation letter is a crucial document.

Hi Expat, thanks for your comment

I did grasp in full the sense of your question to them,  furthermore, this is exactly my case, and prior to enrolling in MM2H I asked which were the conditions to be eligible to apply for it as I am not pensioned yet but retiree living on investments. They accepted what I had to offer at the time (Aug 2018), so I proceeded.
No mention whatsoever to Primary , Secondary or Tertiary source of income . My example of the $1 , was just to put things to extreme reasoning  ;)
Both in monthly income and assets I am above their requirements so I am not sure how relevant it is Primary or Secondary if you are able to demonstrate a steady flow of income
Bottom line for me, I applied when conditions asked for where "A" set of bullet points, I met all they requested after duly gathering all what they asked for. Now, they are changing course, I do hope this does not mean a retroactive vetting of all what was sent so far and moved to Pending Com.Approval status.

I like things to be kept simple, and that was my understanding of the Program at the time of enrollment

Their answer was this:
"Yes, in case of insufficient primary source of income, applicants can support themselves with rental, interest or dividend from investment and et cetera (secondary source)."

He didn't noticed that an applicant in my question is unemployed and this means that an applicant doesn't have a primary source of income, which by their definition  can be only something paid by a government or a private corporation. Secondary source can be "rental, interest or dividend from investment and et cetera". So, an applicant in my question has only secondary source, but not primary. Such applicant is unacceptable for this program.

I really doubt that they would accept $1 for a primary income.  :)  "Primary" means "major part" of the RM10,000/month.

Topazar - it's always been case by case approval so they will assess the strength of individual applications submitted. Therefore the word 'minimum' is a bit of a red herring. All applications should be as strong as possible in terms of detailing liquid assets and income. It is not stated which exact types of income are considered strongest to avoid 'fixing' attempts. If the monthly statements were healthy there should not be anything to worry about.

I believe all these source of income doubt is very subjective depend how the government is operated at that point of time. And we can only wait and see if the approval is granted for those still waiting. For the renewal after 10 years, who know by then.....

Sure it is Gravitas, therefore I tried to be as tidy ,powerful and verifiable in my application as possible

The agent I am working with advised me of several attempts of ppl trying to doctor their applications, so we were very detailed while submitting the application, I do not belong to that category.

But, what initially was presented as a 4/5 months time frame, now will turn in close to a year imho. Hope it has a happy ending for all of us here!

Thanks all of you for your insights !

Gravitas :

Topazar - it's always been case by case approval so they will assess the strength of individual applications submitted. Therefore the word 'minimum' is a bit of a red herring. All applications should be as strong as possible in terms of detailing liquid assets and income. It is not stated which exact types of income are considered strongest to avoid 'fixing' attempts. If the monthly statements were healthy there should not be anything to worry about.

Gravitas :

Yes I think scraping in with 10k of secondary income is not optimal. But showing a high level liquid assets (much above 350k or 500k) would be more beneficial.

You would think so, but this is not what the programme requires. They don't care how much assets you have. They require only a stable income, a primary income, which can be supplemented with a secondary income. Liquid assets is not counted by this programme.

There are different ways to understand the mm2h website. They just emphasize the minimum requirements.

Perhaps hard to understand but mm2h approval is not an exact science.

Hi Expats,
I am in the process of applying for MM2H , any suggestion on the agents for MM2H. I tried two of the agents ( one quite popular, but no Tel Number on their site) but their response has been really very slow and sometimes I need to send them reminders for a response which i find quite strange. Any help or suggestions pls.
Thanks
AP

expat000 :
Gravitas :

Yes I think scraping in with 10k of secondary income is not optimal. But showing a high level liquid assets (much above 350k or 500k) would be more beneficial.

You would think so, but this is not what the programme requires. They don't care how much assets you have. They require only a stable income, a primary income, which can be supplemented with a secondary income. Liquid assets is not counted by this programme.

Gravitas :

There are different ways to understand the mm2h website. They just emphasize the minimum requirements.
Perhaps hard to understand but mm2h approval is not an exact science.

I was talking from our own experience of what mm2h required from us and not by analyzing information on their website.

I would recommend to anyone who is applying, no matter via agent or not,  to contact  mm2h office first via email to confirm if your documentation will be satisfactory.

AP2020 :

I am in the process of applying for MM2H , any suggestion on the agents for MM2H.

Why you don't want to apply by yourself? The process is simple and MM2H office replies promptly.

Sorry but satisfactory documentation does not mean you are going to get approved

All it means is you have met the checklist requirements as per number and type of documents required.

Approval is not just based on that.

The Committee operates confidentially and you are not talking to the Committee. You are talking to administrative staff when you ring or email.

Sorry to disillusion you.

Gravitas :

Sorry but satisfactory documentation does not mean you are going to get approved

All it means is you have met the checklist requirements as per number and type of documents required.

Approval is not just based on that.

The Committee operates confidentially and you are not talking to the Committee. You are talking to administrative staff when you ring or email.

Sorry to disillusion you.

We know that. However, when we consulted a dozen of agents, they are just promising and there is no guarantee of approval either. On the other hand, there is some statistic on approvals. Majority of applicants are approved.

Are you an agent, Gravitas?

I am on mm2h and did my own application.

Let me find the article where it gives the actual statistics from the government of number of applications versus approvals.

I think you may be surprised.

Out of one million applications, only 33,000 were approved.

Here is the article.

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/categ … nder-mm2h/

topazar :

Now, they are changing course, I do hope this does not mean a retroactive vetting of all what was sent so far and moved to Pending Committee Approval status.

We've been told at mm2h office that our documents  already passed  the committee's meeting and are sent  to the Home Affairs office. Our status was changed to "Pending Committee Approval" at the end of January.  This means for you that if you already got "Pending Committee Approval", your financial state was satisfactory for the committee. This is my conclusion based on the data I have.

Home Affairs office told us that they don't have our folder yet and that our folder is in the Immigration currently. This may take 2 months. This was in February.

After the immigration, your folder goes to the Home Affairs for stamping and then back to MTAC for the letter of approval. This is what we've been told at the Home Affairs office.

If you are still not at ease, why don't you write to them at mm2h[at]motac.gov.my asking about retroactive?

Gravitas :

Out of one million applications, only 33,000 were approved.

Here is the article.

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/categ … nder-mm2h/

The programme was not even operational in January or February this year.

It ceased in about July 2018.

New approval system started in March 2019.

Think your data is purely wishful thinking, rather like your statement about number of approvals

It's about one third that are actually approved.

Gravitas :

Out of one million applications, only 33,000 were approved.

Here is the article.

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/categ … nder-mm2h/

It is a good article. Thank you. But it doesn't contradict my statement regarding doing this process by yourself.
Agents are eager for you to apply and they don't check if your financial documentation is actually truly original and strong.
If you apply by yourself and satisfy their rules that you are 50 years old and above, "have a clean record  when it comes to security or crime, and have a strong financial standing", then there should be no problems to pass.

There is interesting data in this article:
"visa fees alone – including multiple entry, social pass and journey performance visa – those under the programme had paid a total of RM52 million."
It is a good incentive for them to slow down your approval.  :)

:lol: :lol:

Gravitas :

The programme was not even operational in January or February this year.

It ceased in about July 2018.

New approval system started in March 2019.

Think your data is purely wishful thinking, rather like your statement about number of approvals

It's about one third that are actually approved.

Gravitas, I really don't know where you take YOUR information, but I am only describing what we've been told at MM2H office when we actually came there in person.  Maybe our status was changed under the OLD approval system. I don't have inside information. Do you? How can I trust what you are saying if I don't know who you are? As far as I know from your posts, you've got your visa 9 years ago and didn't go to MM2H office recently as we did.

With all due respect there have been numerous articles in the press about the programme being suspended.

But of course your application was immune to this.

I get the strong impression you read and hear only what suits your thinking.

Posted by me on 31 January 2019 11:59:01 Report #51

expat000 :

We went to the Ministry Of Tourism, Art & Culture (MTAC) in Putrajaya today. We've been told that our documents were approved by their office at the Committee on January 20 and our file was passed to the Ministry of Home Affairs.

We went to the the Ministry of Home Affairs (Kementerian Dalam Negeri, or KND), Komplex D.  They checked our application number and din't find it. They made several calls and told us that our documents actually went from MTAC straight to the Police Department for police records verification.
After this is done at the Police Department, documents will go to MTAC's Immigration Department and then to KND for the Minister to sign the approval.

I am only telling you what we've been told and you can see that even MTAC personnel doesn't know where the documents are. There is no centralized tracking system.
.

BTW, Gravitas, can you be more respectful? Why are you so aggressive?

Expat000 - it is not aggressive to put forward different options to your own.

It is purely providing balanced information.

If you are happy with what you have been told that is great.

There is other information available that contradicts your opinion.

Your opinion today is that Agents are crooks and own applications are more likely to succeed

Based on absolutely no proof

AP2020 :

Hi Expats,
I am in the process of applying for MM2H , any suggestion on the agents for MM2H. I tried two of the agents ( one quite popular, but no Tel Number on their site) but their response has been really very slow and sometimes I need to send them reminders for a response which i find quite strange. Any help or suggestions pls.
Thanks
AP

Hi there,

Per Gravitas' recommendation I went with Alter Domus as my agent.  Sure, cheapo but reasonably intelligent me did ponder why spend essentially $2k+ US for an agent when I should be able to do the application myself?  Here are the MY pros/cons (your mileage may vary):

Pros

1) Alter Domus is literally Agent with License #1.  My understanding is that the owner was a former Immigration Officer.  Hey, that is worth something (especially in an area known to embrace payola to some extent).
2) I don't know about you, but I am busy still working here in San Francisco.  Let the pros do their job.  I will do mine.
3) Not sure where you hail from, but if you had to spend the time and effort to go to Malaysia once or twice the cost of what is paid to Agent has already been spent, so essentially no savings really.

Cons

1) Sure, money is money and $2k US is nothing to sniff at when the application is fairly straightforward in my opinion.  Also, I believe my qualifications are really good and I should fly through with flying colors but you never know.
2) Alter Domus is in Penang so I may have to work around that if I actually end up in a different part of Malaysia.  Maybe I should have found a local Agent in either Johor where my inlaws are?  Oh well.....


So far, my communications with Alter Domus have been great. Casual, but focused and to the point.  Application has been submitted and we need wife's new US passport to get here to forward that info.

Good luck to you!

V

Thanks Expat000 for sharing your personal experience applying direct with them and the different layovers of your documentation  :D

Regarding emailing them, to me , as I am far away I suscribe to the last post, flying KL even twice to fix potential roadblocks down the road was not an option for me, so I opted to go the Agent way.

I assume the Agent is capable enough to work my paperwork through the red tape maze (I did some research myself before picking her as everybody here), and I don't want her to feel  that I am double checking all of her steps

She sent me a message last week telling me that some approvals pending from 2018 were cleared for other clients of hers, and she has the impression the Task Force is starting to roll, no new rules were applied to these pending approvals which were cleared  . As the info is confidential I couldnot dig more (nationalities, Reference Nrs, etc), so sorry about lack of detail.

If I happen to know more I will share immediately

expat000 :
topazar :

Now, they are changing course, I do hope this does not mean a retroactive vetting of all what was sent so far and moved to Pending Committee Approval status.

We've been told at mm2h office that our documents  already passed  the committee's meeting and are sent  to the Home Affairs office. Our status was changed to "Pending Committee Approval" at the end of January.  This means for you that if you already got "Pending Committee Approval", your financial state was satisfactory for the committee. This is my conclusion based on the data I have.

Home Affairs office told us that they don't have our folder yet and that our folder is in the Immigration currently. This may take 2 months. This was in February.

After the immigration, your folder goes to the Home Affairs for stamping and then back to MTAC for the letter of approval. This is what we've been told at the Home Affairs office.

If you are still not at ease, why don't you write to them at mm2h[at]motac.gov.my asking about retroactive?

topazar :

flying KL even twice to fix potential roadblocks down the road was not an option for me, so I opted to go the Agent way.

VWC :

if you had to spend the time and effort to go to Malaysia once or twice the cost of what is paid to Agent has already been spent, so essentially no savings really.

- Why do you need to fly to MY twice? All documents are mailed. With an agent or not, you have to visit  MTAC within 6 months after approval.
MM2H office emailed to us asking additional documents to be sent to them. They are communicating really well and promptly.

Gravitas :

Your opinion today is that Agents are crooks and own applications are more likely to succeed
Based on absolutely no proof

- You are aggressive again and writing what I never stated.  You applied by yourself and have your mm2h, so you are a proof that it can be done without an agent, right?    :)  Can you just simply relax on this issue? No reason to be angry.

VWC :

Per Gravitas' recommendation I went with Alter Domus as my agent.  Alter Domus is literally Agent with License #1.

- #1 in a list of agents, where it is at the top of the list because it starts with "A"? Or #1 because of some sort of rating? If rating, what is your source?

expat000 :

Agents are eager for you to apply and they don't check if your financial documentation is actually truly original and strong.

If you apply by yourself and satisfy their rules that you are 50 years old and above, "have a clean record  when it comes to security or crime, and have a strong financial standing", then there should be no problems to pass.

How do you know that Agents don't check documentation?

And then comes the self-justification.....

You imply Agents are crooks by your comment and thereby the applications they make are hopeless.

Implying own applications are more likely to succeed....

expat000 :

We know that. However, when we consulted a dozen of agents, they are just promising and there is no guarantee of approval either. On the other hand, there is some statistic on approvals. Majority of applicants are approved.

1 million have applied and 33,000 got approved

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/categ … nder-mm2h/

So two-thirds do NOT get accepted onto the programme.

EXPAT000....I am not saying applying by yourself isn't doable, in my case it is not practical and to be honest with you, we have had a change of Government in the middle of the application with practical implications, so I'd rather have someone following up on it onsite.

Besides, the docs requested and the way to get them maybe standardized for the usual countries applying for MM2H, which is not my case, so I'd rather shell the 2 K , save for the trip for 2 (my wife and myself within the 6 months period that you rightly mentioned) and have someone else deal with the red tape.

Just to mention, I have relatives living in My and they are applying for some residence status, and they are telling me everything is being vetted with new Govnm.(also the maid permits) so even them are going through an agent to solve all the issues showing up

Hey expat000,

First of all, the money that we are spending to use on an agent , is OUR money remember?  Right or wrong, respect that.  What part of (1) distant, foreign country (to some) where (2) payola is common would make one extra confident that, yeah, I can do this on my own???

It is not a ranking, but my understanding is that Alter Domus was assigned License #1 when licensing requirements started.  No more, no less. The fact that they have been doing this so long has to matter no?  Sure, I can see some bogus agents out there trying to get in on the game, but going with an agent with a long positive history should be ok.  Hey, Toyotas and Hondas are known to be bombproof too but can you have a lemon now and then?  Of course!

Regarding your point about agents not checking documents and such, actually Alter Domus did look at our stuff pretty closely.  In fact, regarding the letter of good conduct they expressly told me (and it is in their literature) that my record better be squeaky clean or don't even bother applying.  Does that sound like someone just out to make a quick buck? And remember, a portion of the fee is refunded back if we are not approved.

Gravitas :

1 million have applied and 33,000 got approved

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/categ … nder-mm2h/

So two-thirds do NOT get accepted onto the programme.

I have to question your maths. If the figures quoted are accurate, then 96.7% of applicants did  not get accepted.

Cobolin :
Gravitas :

1 million have applied and 33,000 got approved

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/categ … nder-mm2h/

So two-thirds do NOT get accepted onto the programme.

I have to question your maths. If the figures quoted are accurate, then 96.7% of applicants did  not get accepted.

Yes math is not simple, haha!
I think the only way that number can be correct is if they have received loads of incomplete applications, and/or applications from people that clearly don't match the requirement.
I have not heard of anyone that has heard of anyone that was not approved (that matched the requirements of minimum bank balance and income, and had statements to prove it).

I personally think the article is not correct. Maybe 1 million is inquires,  not 1 mill applications.

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