Brexit and its implications for British, HU and any other citizens

fluffy2560 wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Wish we could of kept my old Alfa and still received the insurance money for it.
I do not remember how much the car cost but around $2,500. cash money directly from the first owner in 1983 or 84....

Moved to Absolutely Anything Else...

Thanks for the move!

I am sure I am not the only one buying more popcorn to enjoy the show.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/05/worl … ule=inlinehttps://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/06/opin … ction.html

Oops, I forgot one. Maybe the most juicy. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/opin … rexit.html

klsallee wrote:

Oops, I forgot one. Maybe the most juicy. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/opin … rexit.html

The whole thing has become intractable and it needs shelving for a much longer period - like 3 years.   Or it just needs to happen next week to get it over with.   

I'm following it on a daily basis and it's moving so fast, any articles older than a day are already so out of date, it might as well be random.

One upside is that ordinary people are now realising how out of touch the political class is compared to the rest of us and one downside is how divided we've become.

It's strangely affecting people in all sorts of ways - I need a new passport as the chip inside is damaged.  It's not invalid because the chip inside is fried.  But what kind of passport will I be issued - a blue one or a red one and will it have European Union on it?  Does it matter?  Well no but it was a symbol of Brexit - all UK passports would become dark blue (the pre-EU colour) and wouldn't have EU on it.  Small point but visible at the individual level.  And then there's the EU validity of UK driving licences (US: licenses).

I'm more concerned that the UK will break up than leaving the EU.  That poison dwarf Sturgeon in Scotland is just horrible but perhaps the SNP bubble is bursting as they are a one policy party. Unfortunately an opposition party in Scotland has lost their great hope as the Conservative leader decided to resign as she wants to be with her new baby.  She was unlikely to be in power in Scotland but she was popular in the UK as a whole and potential rising national star.

As for Cummings, he's an unelected person behind the throne.  He's not going to last as he'll make a mistake and BoJo will eject him if it threatens BoJo in any way.  BoJo's interest is always his own self-preservation.

klsallee wrote:

I am sure I am not the only one buying more popcorn to enjoy the show.

I have a tanker load of the stuff.

I like to mess on political forums but I want to explore all points of view rather than just my own so I'm very pro Brexit on a right wing forum but very anti Brexit on a left wing forum, offering arguements to support my supposed opinion and the general mood of the forum in question. That, apart from a split personality a whole team of mental health professionals could spend a lifetime analysing, allows me to see both points of view and explore the validity of both sets of arguments.

My conclusions: Brexit is going to be a mess, a no-deal Brexit is going to be an flipping mess, but staying in the EU will very probably destroy the UK completely and leave it bankrupt when the EU finally implodes under the weight of its own male cow dung.

I have come to a few conclusions:

You'd have to be a bloody idiot to agree to the Irish backstop as it effectively allows the EU to control the UK's economy until they decide they've had enough. The very idea one group should dictate border policy to a country that's nothing to do with them is abhorrent to me and smacks of colonialist bullying.

All EU governments have to make deals with the UK in the event of a no deal Brexit because not doing so would damage their economies just as badly as it would hit the UK, and projects like Airbus would be dead in the water until the EU could open new manufacturing plants within the Eurozone.

Many of the UK's European friends are anti-UK in a big way and are trying to damage Britain, but they're toothless fools as their own local problems mean they can scream, shout and refuse to eat their dinner as much as they like but, just like a spoilt child having a tantrum, they can't actually do anything without damaging themselves very badly.

There are way too many racist idiots trying to use Brexit for push their stupidity (I really loath that)

Way too many British politicians are on the take from Europe and are taking cash for their votes - See the register of members' interests. I've been taking a look at who voted what in parliament, some voting because they believe in their point of view, more than a few doing it because they're on the make from the EU in one way or another - That's traitorous at best.

As far as freedom of (non-working) movement goes, all governments really should allow the status quo as, apart from their tunes being seriously cool, refusing to allow it would hurt their own people and tourist economies just as much as it would everyone else's so anything other than allowing it would be stupidity. Passport controls are fine, but visa free unlimited stay is the only way to go.

One last point - A few heads need banging together on both sides until they show a bit of common sense.

In the interests of transparency - I'm pro Brexit but anti stupidity,  and believe a no deal would be preferable to May's rubbish deal (or anything like it), especially if it included the utterly moronic backstop.

Bit early for popcorn here but I think I'll have some spag bol for breakfast (Yummy Italian food)

Fred wrote:

.....

In the interests of transparency - I'm pro Brexit but anti stupidity,  and believe a no deal would be preferable to May's rubbish deal (or anything like it), especially if it included the utterly moronic backstop.

Bit early for popcorn here but I think I'll have some spag bol for breakfast (Yummy Italian food)

Pro-Brexit and Italian food.  Is there some irony there? Surely you should be having ramen noodles or some localised thing like hot coal baked under the sand fish wrapped in banana leaves in West Java.  I've had steak and eggs for brekkie.  Very Western.

May's deal was utter tosh.  But even though they moan about the backstop, no-one is engaged in building customs posts. I think there was a statement from someone in government which was basically, we're not doing anything about it on our side.  So it's a fair accompli to show Ireland is kow-towing to Brussels will.  So much for "equal" partner.

UK bailed Ireland out of their economic issues and clearly are massively significant in the entire economy there. There was even a discussion Brexit would force Ireland out too or even break up the UK with NI floating off. But would the Irish south of the border suddenly accept millions of folks with different thinking especially religiously (with medical implications like abortion) appearing in their country?  It wouldn't even be akin to German unification.   

It's a weird relationship with Ireland and the UK and I wondered how long that is going to last. Maybe another generation.   I personally get sick of Irish people bringing up all that IRA BS and Black and Tans history over the past 100 years. Let's finally move on from that.  History is littered with such injustices all over the world. It's all so love and hate. I've got some direct Irish ancestry but I don't go on about it.

Bah-humbug.

Ireland and Brexit is forming up for me as STFU and "get it over with already".

Blimey, that was a bit of a rant.

I have a solution to the Irish border issue. Reunite Ireland as part of the UK.

Ireland would be far better off, they can finally shake off the EU that made such a mess of their economy for so long, and there's no border to get worried about.

Problem solved.

Fred wrote:

I have a solution to the Irish border issue. Reunite Ireland as part of the UK.

Ireland would be far better off, they can finally shake off the EU that made such a mess of their economy for so long, and there's no border to get worried about.

Problem solved.

Very good. I am sure that'll go down well. 

One of the positives could be Guinness for everyone and we'd all be a lot healthier! 

Almost a complete meal in a pint of the black gold.

Hi all,

I was serving in Ireland at the time of the last vote; it wasn't much cop then, it didn't get better when we joined the predecessor of what is today called the EU; if anything it got worse; to suggest that the EU had any positive effect both up to, during and after the Good Friday is a joke; they were there, just like the Ministry of Agriculture was.  Prior to the EU, we had the Common Travel agreement (which we still will have post Brexit); that guarantees the right of Free Travel for UK and Irish residents across the border - which is why there was never any Immigration controls prior to the EU.  So they need to do something about freight crossing; they managed something with Switzerland that shares a border with 4 EU nations, so if there's a will, it's doable somehow.

I recall at the time we joined the Common Market, there were 236 driveable roads that crossed the Irish/UK border; of those 6 had Customs posts, you can work out for yourself which crossing points had the most traffic.  Before the EU, smuggling (booze, fuel and cigs) was the number 1 activity across the border, that didn't change after the EU, nothing has changed since.

fluffy2560 wrote:

As for Cummings, he's an unelected person behind the throne.  He's not going to last as he'll make a mistake and BoJo will eject him if it threatens BoJo in any way.

As was Stephen Bannon. Who is now causing all sorts of problems in Europe.

So...  To dismiss such people just because they are eventually kicked out from a government post is very short sited. Such people move on easily, to their next target.

These types of people seek out chaos, and do not expect to be in any government for long. They move to other groups seeking chaos. They are constant thorns and will continue to affect political life in ways you may underestimate specially and especially when they are outside government, were destruction is easier (as a government must actually have a plan for construction of a nation).

Fred wrote:

I have a solution to the Irish border issue. Reunite Ireland as part of the UK.

Ireland would be far better off, they can finally shake off the EU that made such a mess of their economy for so long, and there's no border to get worried about.

Problem solved.

Or, maybe better, reunite northern Ireland into one Irish country. Jettison the English.

Problem solved. They get rid of English political silliness.  Which is on full display this week.

fluffy2560 wrote:

So it's a fair accompli to show Ireland is kow-towing to Brussels will.  So much for "equal" partner.

A comment rather (very) insulting to the Irish.

One might even say, such a comment is not historically atypical of the English world view about the Irish....

Oops... Was I just now insulting to the English colonial safe space?

Mea culpa....  My bad. 

klsallee wrote:

Fred wrote:

I have a solution to the Irish border issue. Reunite Ireland as part of the UK.

Ireland would be far better off, they can finally shake off the EU that made such a mess of their economy for so long, and there's no border to get worried about.

Problem solved.

Or, maybe better, reunite northern Ireland into one Irish country. Jettison the English.

Problem solved. They get rid of English political silliness.  Which is on full display this week.

That's a bit troll like.  And we were getting on so well.

Who exactly are the "English"?   

UK 101 - England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland (in no particular order), not including all the other territories associated with the UK (Channel Islands, Isle of Man or even Monserrat, Saint Helena, Ascension, Tristan, Pitcairn etc).

We're one nation but not all English.   That's akin to blaming WW2 on all German speaking people.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

So it's a fair accompli to show Ireland is kow-towing to Brussels will.  So much for "equal" partner.

A comment rather (very) insulting to the Irish.

One might even say, such a comment is not historically atypical of the English world view about the Irish....

Oops... Was I just now insulting to the English colonial safe space?

Mea culpa....  My bad. 

Well, it says it all really but don't believe all that tenuous "I'm Irish" propaganda BS'd in Boston and so on.  The stupidity of the Irish-UK (not English) thing is just ridiculous now.  The Irish and British are so much more alike than we are different.   Many Irish people both "ethnically" and directly from there live in the UK and no-one really pays any attention except those seeking to drive wedges in.   

I mentioned it first so my bad too for going off somewhat at a tangent. 

I could throw in Mike "a pound short of a few" Pence who is a religious bigot meeting with PM there Leo  Varadkar.  Make you wonder if Mike P was able to stand being alone in the same room as Varadkar's partner as Pence won't be in the same room as the spouse.   Ridiculous.

Cynic wrote:

Prior to the EU, we had the Common Travel agreement (which we still will have post Brexit); that guarantees the right of Free Travel for UK and Irish residents across the border - which is why there was never any Immigration controls prior to the EU. .

I suspect many of the arguments on both sides of this issue are padded out with more bullpoop than reality.
Your post has shown people on both sides are very probably making difficulties where none need to exist for their own political ends.

It does rather bug me that some UK politicians are selling out their country for cash, but they're politicians so that's to be expected. It's very sad that politicians can do that and get away scott free, but I suppose that's why so many people consider these sorts to be a waste of time so no longer vote. Voter turnout started to drop off rapidly after Bent Blair slithered his way into power and never recovered. That pretty much reflects the faith the British have in their greedy, grasping lot - I wonder if it's the same in Europe.

Brexit will be a mess because the EU only wants the UK in there for the cash, and politicians on both sides are so worried about their own pockets, silly idealism that ignores reality, or pure hate, they don't give a moment to any thought of what will happen to real people.

As for Boris, he's not a lot more than a fat gob on a fat body that isn't worth a moment's trust, but at least he's not a traitor like those taking cash for their remain votes.

Perhaps, come the revolution, all politicians can be put up against a wall and shot, then the world can have new, clean politicians - you'll get a week of common sense until they become corrupt, maybe as long as a month.

Fred wrote:

....

It does rather bug me that some UK politicians are selling out their country for cash, but they're politicians so that's to be expected. It's very sad that politicians can do that and get away scott free, but I suppose that's why so many people consider these sorts to be a waste of time so no longer vote. Voter turnout started to drop off rapidly after Bent Blair slithered his way into power and never recovered. That pretty much reflects the faith the British have in their greedy, grasping lot - I wonder if it's the same in Europe.

....

As for Boris, he's not a lot more than a fat gob on a fat body that isn't worth a moment's trust, but at least he's not a traitor like those taking cash for their remain votes.

Perhaps, come the revolution, all politicians can be put up against a wall and shot, then the world can have new, clean politicians - you'll get a week of common sense until they become corrupt, maybe as long as a month.

Shooting them wouldn't work because it's just recycling.  What it needs is checks and balances forming up with accountability and transparency.  But when BoJo thinks he can disobey the law, it's really turned into a farce.

Overnight, they are talking about taking on Mr Speaker now and contesting his office. I think he (and particularly his wife) are not popular with many but the office is essential.

Brexit is a mess, mostly because there's a massive movement to sabotage it so the UK's negotiating position is very weak, and the EU are using that to push for a far better deal for them than would be possible if the traitors within the UK curled up and died in a gutter somewhere.
Regardless of your opinion of Brexit, traitors are still putting their pockets before their country, and that's unforgivable.

Fred wrote:

Brexit is a mess, mostly because there's a massive movement to sabotage it so the UK's negotiating position is very weak, and the EU are using that to push for a far better deal for them than would be possible if the traitors within the UK curled up and died in a gutter somewhere.
Regardless of your opinion of Brexit, traitors are still putting their pockets before their country, and that's unforgivable.

Yes, you're right in most respects there - I wouldn't use the term traitors as that's somewhat inflammatory. 

But really it comes down to the EU not having to do anything at all except sit at the sidelines and observe while the UK ties itself up in knots.   Longer term they haven't done themselves any favours. They could have made it easier (but didn't for obvious reasons).

The whole thing is almost like King Charles I and Oliver Cromwell. It's going down in history and will be written about, analysed, dramatised and filmed.

As a citizen I'm concerned but as I don't live there and I'm unlikely to go back, I'm more worried about inconvenience than anything else.  I don't want to observe with popcorn. I think I'd prefer the lions vs the gladiators, quite a lot of shouting and some salted peanuts.

Brexit is in a mess because you only have to see what's happening closer to home.

Look at the Tories and Boris. He has sacked all those MPs from his party, resignations, name-calling. Not only is a lot of the country laughing but the world too.



Then there is Northern Ireland and the backstop!

SimCityAT wrote:

Brexit is in a mess because you only have to see what's happening closer to home.

Look at the Tories and Boris. He has sacked all those MPs from his party, resignations, name-calling. Not only is a lot of the country laughing but the world too.

[img align=C]https://scontent.fvie1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70414176_10157273629937279_4041120508169682944_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_oc=AQntzsFDqGbATLWK0Lgm1_Qe4yjQHlfHDwF66FUFhgjkzWTyNW_zUCJ8Bk9K3Mgsclc&_nc_ht=scontent.fvie1-1.fna&oh=49151550921858204a9afbf4b74d1a78&oe=5E0CE4DC[/url]

Then there is Northern Ireland and the backstop!

Haha, brilliant!

Traitors?

I'm trying to think of another word to describe people that sell out their country for cash.

I can see how many believe the UK staying in the EU is he best course of action for their country so would fight for that, that's perfectly reasonable, but politicians that do it for EU cash are nothing less than traitors, and some are doing exactly that.
You only have to look at Tories that are trying to keep the UK in the EU, then take a look at the register of members' interests to see they're taking cash from either Europeans directly, or from British companies that have ties to the EU in whatever way. I haven't looked at Labour and other party's MPs but I'm pretty sure some will be at it.

Fred wrote:

Traitors?

I'm trying to think of another word to describe people that sell out their country for cash.

I can see how many believe the UK staying in the EU is he best course of action for their country so would fight for that, that's perfectly reasonable, but politicians that do it for EU cash are nothing less than traitors, and some are doing exactly that.
You only have to look at Tories that are trying to keep the UK in the EU, then take a look at the register of members' interests to see they're taking cash from either Europeans directly, or from British companies that have ties to the EU in whatever way. I haven't looked at Labour and other party's MPs but I'm pretty sure some will be at it.

The word you're thinking of is "hypocrites".

But MPs have always worked in their own personal interests. Nothing new.  If they all resigned their interests then maybe that'll work out.   Same everywhere - look at Trump and his funnelling military spending into his resorts.

There was only one MP without interest and that was or is Dennis Skinner if I remember correctly.

The biggest hypocrite is Rees-Mogg with his anti-abortion stance yet he finances pharma companies making abortion pills. 

I'm not criticising abortion one way or another but I am certainly criticising hypocrisy.

Supporting abortion pills whilst claiming to be anti abortion is hypocrisy, but selling out your country for cash is treason, and at least some MPs are doing exactly that.

Fred wrote:

Supporting abortion pills whilst claiming to be anti abortion is hypocrisy, but selling out your country for cash is treason, and at least some MPs are doing exactly that.

I dunno if it's treason but it's certainly not cricket.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

Fred wrote:

I have a solution to the Irish border issue. Reunite Ireland as part of the UK.

Ireland would be far better off, they can finally shake off the EU that made such a mess of their economy for so long, and there's no border to get worried about.

Problem solved.

Or, maybe better, reunite northern Ireland into one Irish country. Jettison the English.

Problem solved. They get rid of English political silliness.  Which is on full display this week.

That's a bit troll like.  And we were getting on so well.

Me or Fred? 

fluffy2560 wrote:

Who exactly are the "English"?

Oh, please... Geography 101. England, is defined.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England

If you want to go beyond that, we cant start a pointless debate that we are all really Africans. Decedents of Australopithecus.

fluffy2560 wrote:

UK 101 - England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland (in no particular order), not including all the other territories associated with the UK (Channel Islands, Isle of Man or even Monserrat, Saint Helena, Ascension, Tristan, Pitcairn etc).

We're one nation but not all English.   That's akin to blaming WW2 on all German speaking people.

You are ignoring culture, history etc.

Simply being on a largish island does not make all people on that island one people. The Scots are not English. Not by culture, language, history, etc. Agreed (forced?) political union after more than one "rough wooing" does make everyone "English". And colonization and defining a "country" by its territories is in many (most) ways often artificial and thus not germane. Especially colonization. Pitcairn ... seriously. An artifact of the period of colonization and English grabbing what they could because there were no people there at the time and planting a flag on the land. I can not take such comments seriously. IMHO, that was just land theft.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Well, it says it all really but don't believe all that tenuous "I'm Irish" propaganda BS'd in Boston and so on.  The stupidity of the Irish-UK (not English) thing is just ridiculous now.  The Irish and British are so much more alike than we are different.   Many Irish people both "ethnically" and directly from there live in the UK and no-one really pays any attention except those seeking to drive wedges in.

I just find it odd you mention tolling when others talk about the English in not so "positive" tones, but allow yourself to degenerate the Irish. And then try to "fix that" and justify it by claiming how much the "British" and Irish are similar.

And I would say, IMHO, you are wrong when you say the "British" and Irish are more alike than different. Seriously. History. There is significant historical evidence to the contrary..... Of abuse and dominance. A people kept in servitude for centuries are not "alike" to their masters. Not only are you wrong, but IMHO you are showing English bias and real ignorance about Ireland and the Irish and English history.

And let us not forget that even in Northern Ireland 55.8% voted to stay in the EU, while the English were the ones that voted to leave 53.4%. "Brexit" my be better called "Enexit".

Interesting....

I really expected better of you.

Not of myself. Because, I am indeed at times seen as an SOB. I accept that. It is who I am.

But you? Disappointed.... You claim to be liberal thinking. But some cracks are showing.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I could throw in Mike "a pound short of a few" Pence who is a religious bigot

I actually agree. In fact, I would extend that to his entire party. But that is off topic here. Better to put that into a USA Bashing thread.   

klsallee wrote:

....
Me or Fred? 

....
You are ignoring culture, history etc.

Simply being on a largish island does not make all people on that island one people. The Scots are not English. Not by culture, language, history, etc. Agreed (forced?) political union after more than one "rough wooing" does make everyone "English". And colonization and defining a "country" by its territories is in many (most) ways often artificial and thus not germane. Especially colonization. Pitcairn ... seriously. An artifact of the period of colonization and English grabbing what they could because there were no people there at the time and planting a flag on the land. I can not take such comments seriously. IMHO, that was just land theft.

It was you.

No, I'm not ignoring culture and history.  I wasn't even referring to the borders originally, I was referring to the amorphous blob/mixing pot that is now nominally England. 

You're actually agreeing with me on that point. 

As for Pitcairn, it's their choice to remain part of the UK. They are after all British citizens when they arrived there (yes it was uninhabited) and their nationality has continued through the generations.  They wouldn't survive there without support. If anywhere they should join, it would make more sense for them to join NZ.  UK has handed over islands to NZ in the past.

Pot and kettle about colonisation - i.e. native Americans.  And the land rush.    I don't think the Iroquois or any other tribes over there think of themselves as "American" in terms of nation but they do I am sure in terms of continent and their lands.   

We're all historically guilty for something or other but when does it ever stop?  I want Hungarians to get compensation for the Romans misappropriating their lands. Italy, Rome and Julius Caesar owe big time.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Fred wrote:

Supporting abortion pills whilst claiming to be anti abortion is hypocrisy, but selling out your country for cash is treason, and at least some MPs are doing exactly that.

I dunno if it's treason but it's certainly not cricket.

That's a far more serious accusation (For the English) than treason.

I have an idea - All MPs, before they make a speech on any given subject, should declare income of any sort that is relevant to the subject in question.

Kenneth Clarke would start a pro EU, remain, or anti no deal speech with, "I declare I take money from <number> companies with an interest in the UK remaining in the EU".

The same goes for lists of votes.

Kenneth Clarke  (Takes money from <X> companies with an interest in the UK remain in the EU) voted against No deal.

You can check him out here

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10115 … e#register

That seems fair and reasonable.

Fred wrote:

I have an idea - All MPs, before they make a speech on any given subject, should declare income of any sort that is relevant to the subject in question.

Kenneth Clarke would start a pro EU, remain, or anti no deal speech with, "I declare I take money from <number> companies with an interest in the UK remaining in the EU".

The same goes for lists of votes.

Kenneth Clarke  (Takes money from <X> companies with an interest in the UK remain in the EU) voted against No deal.

You can check him out here

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10115 … e#register

That seems fair and reasonable.

Maybe we should adopt a People's Assembly like Maduro in Venezuela.   After all, "cancelling" Parliament is akin to the sort of thing BoJo will do.   Why not just make it random - draw out 500 people across the country to serve 2 years for policy making*

I don't know if anyone heard BoJo's speech with Varadkar in Dublin. It was stirring stuff but of course the Irish didn't vote leave.  If you believed BoJo, you'd think they did.

* I'm not serious of course - I wouldn't trust 95% of UK citizens to be capable of actually formulating a policy never mind executing it.

klsallee wrote:

.....

I just find it odd you mention tRolling when others talk about the English in not so "positive" tones, but allow yourself to degenerate the Irish. And then try to "fix that" and justify it by claiming how much the "British" and Irish are similar.

And I would say, IMHO, you are wrong when you say the "British" and Irish are more alike than different. Seriously. History. There is significant historical evidence to the contrary..... Of abuse and dominance. A people kept in servitude for centuries are not "alike" to their masters. Not only are you wrong, but IMHO you are showing English bias and real ignorance about Ireland and the Irish and English history.

.....Better to put that into a USA Bashing thread.   

Nah, people in the US often talk about their heritage as though that equates to on the ground knowledge over decades and indeed birth. 

I am always surprised when they write - "I'm an American but my ancestors Dutch, Romanian, German, Irish..." and blah-blah.  I don't think that makes them invested through some tenuous link.

The Irish and British are intertwined, always have been and always will be.  Everyone will know someone who is Irish in some way or another. Even I've got Irish in me and one of my older kids is shacked up with an Irish guy.   It's just not something anyone really thinks about day to day.  Just makes us more diverse - more power to that. 

US bashing is international sport and always has been but the upswing has been remarkable what with Mr T and all the other weirdos in his entourage.  I consider the US, Russia and just about everyone else fair game for a bit of bashing.  A US bashing thread is an idea - please start one!

fluffy2560 wrote:

If you believed BoJo

I don't believe him most of the time, but I do agree with some things he says. He's absolutely right in saying MPs that vote against the Brexit referendum result are weakening the UK's negotiating position.
On a personal note - The British public voted to leave so remainer MPs are anti democratic by nature, that being regardless of their vote being an act of conscience or sold for EU cash.
Yes, suspending parliament is anti democratic, but so is trying to ignore a democratic vote to leave so the more vocal in the remain camp can hardly complain.

Fred wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

If you believed BoJo

I don't believe him most of the time, but I do agree with some things he says. He's absolutely right in saying MPs that vote against the Brexit referendum result are weakening the UK's negotiating position.
On a personal note - The British public voted to leave so remainer MPs are anti democratic by nature, that being regardless of their vote being an act of conscience or sold for EU cash.
Yes, suspending parliament is anti democratic, but so is trying to ignore a democratic vote to leave so the more vocal in the remain camp can hardly complain.

BoJo has already had it.   They passed the law last night for Brexit not to go ahead without a deal.   

Liz also gave it royal assent so it's now law.

The entire thing is so fast moving, it's hard to predict what's happening from one moment to the next.

fluffy2560 wrote:

They passed the law last night for Brexit not to go ahead without a deal.   

Liz also gave it royal assent so it's now law.
next.

Not quite

BBC news wrote:

But the new legislation, which was granted royal assent on Monday, changes that, and will force the PM to seek a delay to 31 January 2020 unless a deal - or a no-deal exit - is approved by MPs by 19 October.

That doesn't say no deal is off the table perminantly, just the PM must ask for a delay.
Frankly, the more remain try to stop Brexit against the public's stated will, the more chance the EU will refuse to negotiate so the more chance of a no deal eventually happening.
Given democracy has spoken, anyone trying to stop Brexit is anti democracy.

Fred wrote:

.....

That doesn't say no deal is off the table permanently, just the PM must ask for a delay.
Frankly, the more remain try to stop Brexit against the public's stated will, the more chance the EU will refuse to negotiate so the more chance of a no deal eventually happening.
Given democracy has spoken, anyone trying to stop Brexit is anti democracy.

Yes, you are right.  BoJo is still trying to wriggle out of it by using two letters - here's the first one saying we want this and that and here's the second saying we didn't mean it.   That's Demonic Cummings insane!

Some pundit on the radio said it's inevitably going to be a delay as BJ has nowhere to go. On the same radio station (LBC) during the advertising break, they had an ad from HMG saying Brexit on the 31st  October and:

1) Make sure your passport is valid for the EU
2) Make sure car insurance and driving licence are valid for the EU
3) Make sure health insurance cover for the EU

Someone's taxes paid for that ad but I'd say that was jumping the gun somewhat.

One of my correspondents from Poland now calls it Brexsh*t.

The problem with politicians is easy enough to work out - Most people wanting to represent the people really want to represent their pockets.
They make an absolute bundle whilst in office and have their finger in whatever pie gets them to most cash (or promises of fat jobs in Europe upon retirement, or a load of US cash for starting wars based on dodgy evidence).
I have little trust in any of them.

Some make a sack of cash and become very rich, but they're open capitalists so that's fine as far as honesty goes.
Some make a sack of cash and become very rich, but they're claimed socialists so that's not fine as far as honesty goes.
Some make a sack of cash and become very rich but, they're open marxists so that's not fine as far as honesty goes, but it is average for marxists when they smell coin.

Corbyn is a terrific marxist with a personal cash pile of three million quid but the bare faced cheek to claim to champion the poor.

I don't trust Blow Jo b, but I trust Corbyn even less.

It's a sad world where politicians are judged on how little we trust their honesty rather than how much we trust it.

However, for the poor sods of the UK and Europe, it's a set of father's name challenged politicians that decide just how much damage they're going to do to expats and home stayers alike - and there's not a lot to do about it because they're pretty much all the same, just with different names or isms for their version of stupidity.

The Twits are tweeting this morning that (paraphrasing so please bear with me) because the Article 50 legislation is based on EU law, it trumps the requirement of yesterdays domestic law that required Bojo to write a letter.

Makes I larf it does, makes I larf.