Ukraine's minority issues

Welcome on board Elina

Hi elina810,

the relations between Ukrainian and Russian people are quite perfect in all kind of situations. All people in Ukraine can speek both Russian and Ukrainan. One can even hardly say that Russians is a minority in Ukraine, though officially the percentage of Russians is about 15%. The question of nationality of a particular person very rarely arises among Russians ad Ukrainians. How would you know which is nationality of a person if he/she speaks Russian and Ukrainian languages?

Ukrainans are very friendly to all the minorities: Russian, Chinese, Vietnamese, etc.

Hello elina810

There are no problem in Ukraine between (most of) Ukrainian and Russian, as a lot of "Ukrainians" are from russian origin (and vice versa).

There is a part of Ukrainian nationalists, most of them from the west part of the country (from town like Lvov/Lviv for example). For this people the most important is that in Ukraine everybody should speak ukrainian and absolutely not russian… Other problem like employment, poverty and corruption are only latent problems. For them it is very more important that you write Kyiv instead of Kiev………
The east of the country is surely a little more pro-russian, but I really don't see so much problem for this.
Most of Ukrainian are very good and peaceful people.

It seems that the recent events want to give me reason……
kyivpost.com/news/russia/detail/104025/

I am not Ukrainian but this country has had a tortured history and attitudes towards minorities vary, I met one African in a church I attended who was attacked leaving him with a broken jaw and six months previous to that he was left with some broken ribs. Westerner are more accepted. I see with the kids I teach that some love the Ukrainian language and others the Russian.

Well... I partly agree with the previous post that Ukraine has a tortured history and that explains some of the problems...some but not all.

The fact that Ukraine for centuries has been under Russian domination (central and east regions) explains that many now see themselves as Russian, it also explains the fact that Russia proper has a difficult time accepting the country's present day independence and separate history. In turn many pro-Russian Ukrainians have never really accepted their identity as separate from that of "mother Russia" and in addition to not speaking the language (Ukrainian) they despise those Ukrainians living in the west who do. Add to that the separate "story" of western Ukraine- having developed under the Austro-Hangarian empire and fallen to Soviet Russia only in 1940 and you have an ugly mix of regional animosity, linguistic division and cultural/ political differences. So in short the relationship between  Ukrainian concious citizens of the west and dreaming of Russia people in the east in not good.

However, one also needs to realize that just like in  the case of Yugoslavia those very real differences have been skillfuly manipulated to suit the politicians in Kiev seeking national control (yes seeking national control by playing regional politics because the majority of Ukrainians are Russian speakers and gaining their trust means controlling the whole nation). Therefore instead of playing down the above-mentioned problems while concentration on economic development, the pro-Russian electorate in the East has for years been fed the story that no liberal society and economic reforms in Ukraine are possible because those reforms would betray the country's long history  with Russia. Keep in mind that Russia itself remains very authoritarian undemocratic and unreformed.

Resulting from all of the above is the country not only lacking in economic development (the standard of living is very low throughout with the average monthly income of barely $300) but also suffering from not having the sort of social and political climat where normal relations with other minorities are possible. Ukraine simply never developed a functionng civil society that can embrace all of its citizens For that reason the neggative attitudes toward people of color, people of fifferent faiths, those of unconventional sexual orientation are widespread and sometimes even lead to violence.

To conclude I would say that Ukraine not only is the poorest country in Europe after neighboring Moldova, but also lacks the basic system of guarantees and respect towards those who are different in whatever way that might be - religious, ethnicity or otherwise.

PS. Having said all that Ukrainians in all lacations, those from the west as well as those from the east are one ethnicity and one nation. The linguistic differences and differences in political views have certainly been shaped by history, but the genes are all the same.   

Please contact me directly at [email protected] with any questions.

Elin1810 from Estonia clearly want to speculate of Russian – Ukrainian communication in order to make a case of Russian occupation of Ukraine.

Elina – there are perfect relations between Russian and Ukrainina in Ukraine. However, people from baltic countries such as Estonia, Latvia, Litva are more not welcome due to their nazi and chauvinistic behavior directed towards Russian and Ukrainian speaking residents of those countries.

Are you out of your mind accusing a person of being a NAZI even though she has not mentioned anything to imply that? She simply asked those on the forum to express their opinions on inter-ethnic relations in Ukraine that is all. If you think they are perfect you can say so  but WITHOUT insulting people from Latvia or the Baltic states.

I personally think you are wrong just about everything you wrote, but the point is you crossed the line of discency that shows your true colors (in this case prejusice to people from Baltics and I also presume other Western countries)

pav_kov wrote:

Elin1810 from Estonia clearly want to speculate of Russian – Ukrainian communication in order to make a case of Russian occupation of Ukraine.

Elina – there are perfect relations between Russian and Ukrainina in Ukraine. However, people from baltic countries such as Estonia, Latvia, Litva are more not welcome due to their nazi and chauvinistic behavior directed towards Russian and Ukrainian speaking residents of those countries.

oleggy wrote:

Are you out of your mind accusing a person of being a NAZI even though she has not mentioned anything to imply that? She simply asked those on the forum to express their opinions on inter-ethnic relations in Ukraine that is all. If you think they are perfect you can say so  but WITHOUT insulting people from Latvia or the Baltic states.

I personally think you are wrong just about everything you wrote, but the point is you crossed the line of discency that shows your true colors (in this case prejusice to people from Baltics and I also presume other Western countries)

pav_kov wrote:

Elin1810 from Estonia clearly want to speculate of Russian – Ukrainian communication in order to make a case of Russian occupation of Ukraine.

Elina – there are perfect relations between Russian and Ukrainina in Ukraine. However, people from baltic countries such as Estonia, Latvia, Litva are more not welcome due to their nazi and chauvinistic behavior directed towards Russian and Ukrainian speaking residents of those countries.

I am standing for my words.
Do not you find it strange that someone from Estonia (where SS is officially recognized by the government that is also know for its russophobic views) asks such a question?

rt.com/news/ss-division-celebration-activists

You may travel to Estonia and talk to them in Russian. You will be harassed and called names as Communist, Russian etc.

They also tend to export goods not eligible for export to EU into Ukraine. Ask you Odessa friends if Ukrainian fish is sold to EU and baltic to Ukraine. Welcome to true baltic love of Ukraine.

If you think I am wrong do not read my posts. I express my  answer to her question.
Apparently you lived too long in Tampa, FL. Use sunscreen and stay in your rainbow MBA lines.

pav_kov wrote:

oleggy wrote:

Are you out of your mind accusing a person of being a NAZI even though she has not mentioned anything to imply that? She simply asked those on the forum to express their opinions on inter-ethnic relations in Ukraine that is all. If you think they are perfect you can say so  but WITHOUT insulting people from Latvia or the Baltic states.

I personally think you are wrong just about everything you wrote, but the point is you crossed the line of discency that shows your true colors (in this case prejusice to people from Baltics and I also presume other Western countries)

pav_kov wrote:

Elin1810 from Estonia clearly want to speculate of Russian – Ukrainian communication in order to make a case of Russian occupation of Ukraine.

Elina – there are perfect relations between Russian and Ukrainina in Ukraine. However, people from baltic countries such as Estonia, Latvia, Litva are more not welcome due to their nazi and chauvinistic behavior directed towards Russian and Ukrainian speaking residents of those countries.

I am standing for my words.
You may travel to Estonia and talk to them in Russian. You will be harassed and called names as Communist, Dirty Russian etc.

They tend to import goods not eligible for import to EU into Ukraine. Welcome to true baltic love of Ukraine.

If you think I am wrong do not read my posts. I express my  answer to her question.
Apparently you lived too long in Tampa, FL. Use sunscreen and stay in your rainbow lines.

Well...look we are not going to argue about Baltics or Nazizm here. Anybody who spent any time outside of former Soviet Union (particularly Russia) knows that the beliefs about World War II and nationalism  Russians hold from old days are not shared by anyone else. You can sit here and insult the rest of the world all you want, but the truth will remain the same  -  namely that it is Russia and Russian speaking part of Ukraine which due to historic isolation and lack of democratic experience is now itself very  nationalistic and authoritarian, hateful and cheuvinistic in relations to other people.

PS. Also I don't know what it is that Latvians export to Ukraine, but they certainly don't IMPORT it into our country. That it to say that you should think twice before insulting other people especially when you are from authoritarian dirt-poor country, which if anything should be learning from others, not putting them down. That is what I have been doing during all of my years abroad.

oleggy wrote:

pav_kov wrote:

oleggy wrote:

Are you out of your mind accusing a person of being a NAZI even though she has not mentioned anything to imply that? She simply asked those on the forum to express their opinions on inter-ethnic relations in Ukraine that is all. If you think they are perfect you can say so  but WITHOUT insulting people from Latvia or the Baltic states.

I personally think you are wrong just about everything you wrote, but the point is you crossed the line of discency that shows your true colors (in this case prejusice to people from Baltics and I also presume other Western countries)

I am standing for my words.
You may travel to Estonia and talk to them in Russian. You will be harassed and called names as Communist, Dirty Russian etc.

They tend to import goods not eligible for import to EU into Ukraine. Welcome to true baltic love of Ukraine.

If you think I am wrong do not read my posts. I express my  answer to her question.
Apparently you lived too long in Tampa, FL. Use sunscreen and stay in your rainbow lines.

Well...look we are not going to argue about Baltics or Nazizm here. Anybody who spent any time outside of former Soviet Union (particularly Russia) knows that the beliefs about World War II and nationalism  Russians hold from old days are not shared by anyone else. You can sit here and insult the rest of the world all you want, but the truth will remain the same  -  namely that it is Russia and Russian speaking part of Ukraine which due to historic isolation and lack of democratic experience is now itself very  nationalistic and authoritarian, hateful and cheuvinistic in relations to other people.

PS. Also I don't know what it is that Latvians export to Ukraine, but they certainly don't IMPORT it into our country. That it to say that you should think twice before insulting other people especially when you are from authoritarian dirt-poor country, which if anything should be learning from others, not putting them down. That is what I have been doing during all of my years abroad.

Posts by karayuschij, telstar92 make you statement of Ukrainians as  " nationalistic and authoritarian, hateful and cheuvinistic in relations to other people" are nonsense.

I partially agree with you that USA is a "authoritarian dirt-poor country" )).

You are NOT Ukrainian although you probably hold ILLEGALLY Ukrainian citizenship. May be you are Ukrainian next Yuschenko in training??? Post your pictures)))

Travel to Baltic countries once and forget you American passport at home, and take Ukrainian - speak Russian. Then we talk.
I was like you before traveling through Baltic counties))).

To pav_kov: Look the purpose of this forum is to help expats in Ukraine. Although I find it difficult to understand, some people are still interested in learning about Ukraine - so that is why I comment on various issues here. I try to provide the most truthful information about the country and I can only hope that my comments help.

In relation to what you say about people from the Baltics - that is one of those things where I felt the need to write you back (and I usually don't do this). I will not lower myself to calling you names, but If you want to talk about nationalism or standards of living in Europe simply look up statistics on Wikipedia. By replying to your hateful post I wanted to show that not all Ukrainians are brainless idiots who still repeat lies about World War II that the Soviet propaganda taugth us. I am not a nationalist (I am from Odessa and I hold none other but Ukrainian citizenship even after living abroad for 14 years). I also see many problems in US and other countries (and that includes Latvia). However, to say that a person from Estonia is a NAZI just because she registered on expat forum and asked about inter-ethnic relations in Ukraine is just CRAZY.

Now, I have traveled the world, studied in a number of places (London, Montreal, etc.), worked in different professional fields. I know what I say when I state that it is rather Russia that is one of a kind...and don't forget I am half Russian myself. However, with the history of "liberating" others like Russian has in the past and then the fact that to this day the country is ruled by ex-KGB agent Puting does not exactly qualify one to judge about the national character of  others. One last thing -  what language would you expect to be spoken in any country other than Latvia of course...a native one right? Hence advice for the future: If you are abroad - address them in THEIR language especially if you travel to countries previously under Soviet/ Russian occupation. (and don't tell me that with Soviet tanks present Latvians simply voted in 1940 to join USSR by the tally of 99% of free votes)

PS. As for Yuschenko, my picture and all that...trust me I look just fine and that is not the point. Yuschenko stood for free elections and free press, free movement of people and other freedoms that had he not stood for we would have never had the President we have today - your hero Yanukovich I suppose. (Yet I do recognize many mistakes and problems that man had created)

One more thing, I don't think that Ukraine is that dreadful of a place that no Ukrainian should be proud of his or her history, including some episodes from the Soviet past. I simply wanted to say that when it comes to judging others for nationalism, fascism or human rights...well in that case Russia and Russian-speaking Ukrainians don't exactly have a good track record themselves to do that.

In general it amuses me that the poorer Ukraine becomes the more often we hear about the problems in US and about THAT SAME nationalism abroad.

Hello everybody!

Could you please concentrate on the initial topic?

Thank you,
Harmonie.

For info, some discussions have been moved to a Private Forum, as they were .
Could you please concentrate on the initial topic.

Thank you,
Harmonie.

Begin with small things if to open people's eyes. Things can be changes. For example do not say children's organs are not a business in the Ukraine. Say yes it happened and we will say something for the parents and help to stop the ones who are in that business likes the police. If you make a public stand it will changes. Nelson Mandela has done it and he had success.

Let Ukraine say NO I will not let the same police who must protect me. Steal and cut open my child and rob me.

If nelson Mandela can do this Ukraine can do this to. If Indonesia can do this Ukraine can do this to!

There is no iron any more to chain this basic right. The right that everybody has to protect their own children.

Oleggy

We need to operate facts not emotions when talking about relations between nations.

1. Are relations between Russian and Ukrainian, Ukrainians and other minorities are just fine? - Yes. See posts above.

2. Are nations officially supporting nazi not welcome in Ukraine and Europe? – Yes

3. Does Estonia n government support nazy - Yes. See link above.
   And here “Estonia Gets Failing Grade for Nazi Investigations"
    http://news.err.ee/Politics/7ff33791-86 … d1748467ec

4. Do Baltic countries limit freedom of speach for Non-Estonian speakers - Yes.
Read aloud here at Amnesty USA “Non-Estonian speakers, mainly from the Russian-speaking minority, were denied employment due to official language requirements for various professions in the private sector and almost all professions in the public sector.”   http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/coun … pe/estonia

That is straight enough to understand my previous posts. I could add more from personal experience.
Unfortunately for some liberasts it is difficult to get or even accept existence of things other way then they think.
I set my point and explained it. If someone does not like it suck it up and move on.  I do not fight here with other posters. I have my point of view and I am willing to defend it.