Police Problems in Saigon

Fred, don't, you will never leave. 

Tell me, how much is a hotel room per night?
I can't think why but I've suddenly found an urge to visit the country.

Fred goes wondering? ... 

vndreamer wrote:

Fred, don't, you will never leave. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrfhf1Gv4Tw   ????

Yogi007 wrote:

20 bucks a night.

When I was younger but age catches up so no more than 4 now.

Late to the party but I could not agree with Ciambella anymore. Glad some of us still have our heads screwed on properly. OP runs read lights and doesn't use blinkers in a country where she's a tourist and complains about it on a public forum?

Let's reverse the situation. Can you imagine being in America where theres a forum for mostly Asian people who are in the states on work visas or whatever and someone posted a thread complaining that they were sick and tired of the police in America pulling them over for "minor" traffic violations such as running red lights, not using traffic signals, speeding etc?? What would we say as Americans? Probably something to the extent of "if you don't like it, obey the rules or get the hell out of here!" Guess what? Believe it or not the same rules/principles apply on the other side of the country shockingly.

Quite frankly Im surprised you actually posted this without thinking there would at least be some backlash towards you

The OP should be fined and pay up but only if the law is being enforced for anyone breaking it......that won,t be done....the coppers are to lazy but we all will go out tomorrow and witness at least 50  possibly 100 people breaking the law on the road.I have seen the cops ignore someone driving down the road against the traffic flow,driving without an helmet,texting,with dangerous loads on their bikes,to many people on the bike,The law,should be the same for expats and Vietnamese alike....if you drive in the USA,AU or Uk  you obey the law no matter what nationality you are...or you get fined if there is a copper about.

OP runs read lights and doesn't use blinkers in a country where she's a tourist and complains about it on a public forum?

Or you think being blonde, fair skin, and western looking contributed to being stopped too? If the op looked local, you think she'd get stopped? 

Ciambella wrote:

. Following the law of the country where you choose to live would be my first recommendation, but if you're allergic to that idea, dyeing your hair may help to gain some common sense. Your choice.

Exactly. As you and Gobot pointed out, the police have these checkpoints for a reason. And every time I drive by one i see plenty of Vietnamese pulled over, but have never seen a Westerner stopped.

What strikes me about this forum are the number of complaints about "poor" treatment my the locals.

My observation is that normally westerners are purposely not stopped by police.

In addition,  I can think of about 180 countries in which the penalties would be far more severe.
And in a third of those countries, the penalty would probably entail mite than money, at least for a woman.

My advice: No place is perfect, every place city country, has positives and negatives.
Focus on what you like and ignore what you don't like since you can't change it.

Lastly, unless born here,  we are all guests.  Act accordingly.

(There's plenty of,  in my mind stupid stuff, that my gf asks me to do or not do.  I smile and act as directed, because it's more important for me to not embarrass her than make some point that only I'd understand in any case😁)

Lastly, unless born here,  we are all guests.  Act accordingly.

Yep 

Wxx3 wrote:

Lastly, unless born here,  we are all guests.  Act accordingly.

It's worse when one is neither a guest nor a family member. I'm talking about Overseas Vietnamese (Viet Kieu or Vietnamese Sojourner is not a technically correct term) who are treated with both contempt and envy.

The OP thinks she's harassed by the police? Try again being an Overseas Vietnamese dealing with local officials who trumped up bogus fees, or vendors who flat-out stated that all Overseas Vietnamese have the *responsibility* to support the economy (and to Hades with bargaining.)

"Try again being an Overseas Vietnamese dealing with local officials who trumped up bogus fees, and vendors who flat-out stated that all Overseas Vietnamese have the *responsibility* to support the economy."

Do not even get me started on this matter.  But I will keep it simple, the people of VN have been oppressed and enslaved by a communist/fascist government and it is not anyones responsibility to support the economy other than the people running the government.  Ever since the amazing people of VN were enslaved from 4/30/75, those in the government, stole and continue to steal, as much wealth as possible while the majority of people struggle day to day.  If the government actually knew how to manage the economy with monetary and physical policies to reward hardwork and leadership with what people deserve to be paid, you would not have coffee money or extra fees at every corner.  Nobody has any responsibility to prop up one of the most corrupt governments in the world and of course, they are not going to change it because they live fat and happy, why would they?  Until the people of VN stand up and force recognition (but wait, they cant do that because they go to prison).

Ditto, especially with the last sentence.

You talk from the US Gouvernement?

The police are very vigilant at night now with all the construction work around the city. If you break the road rules, like running a red light or not using your indicator, they will stop you, blonde or not. I have a friend who ran a red light and wasn't wearing a helmet at 1am. They fined him and impounded his motorbike for a month.

Lastly, unless born here,  we are all guests.  Act accordingly.

Well phrased !! 

The police are very vigilant at night now with all the construction work around the city. If you break the road rules, like running a red light or not using your indicator, they will stop you, blonde or not. I have a friend who ran a red light and wasn't wearing a helmet at 1am. They fined him and impounded his motorbike for a month.

I guess your friend thought he could slip the cops at that time of the early morning.. ?
Did he think they would be fast asleep ? 

The policemen were wide awake. They must have been sipping some of that Vietnamese coffee 

vndreamer wrote:

"Try again being an Overseas Vietnamese dealing with local officials who trumped up bogus fees, and vendors who flat-out stated that all Overseas Vietnamese have the *responsibility* to support the economy."

Do not even get me started on this matter.  But I will keep it simple, the people of VN have been oppressed and enslaved by a communist/fascist government and it is not anyones responsibility to support the economy other than the people running the government.  Ever since the amazing people of VN were enslaved from 4/30/75, those in the government, stole and continue to steal, as much wealth as possible while the majority of people struggle day to day.  If the government actually knew how to manage the economy with monetary and physical policies to reward hardwork and leadership with what people deserve to be paid, you would not have coffee money or extra fees at every corner.  Nobody has any responsibility to prop up one of the most corrupt governments in the world and of course, they are not going to change it because they live fat and happy, why would they?  Until the people of VN stand up and force recognition (but wait, they cant do that because they go to prison).

I disagree with what you're saying.  The same coffee money etc exists in Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and Myanmar.  It's a cultural SE Asian thing - nothing to do with Communism.  Vietnam's doing pretty well given how badly she was beat up for decades by the French and then Americans.

mattyw2 wrote:

Vietnam's doing pretty well given how badly she was beat up for decades by the French and then Americans.

Actually, quality of life is lower now than the years pre-1975. And the country has lost, permanently, its natural beauty due to the ravage for personal gain that happened immediately after the war.

Seams same like around the world??

I think the country got pretty destroyed when more ordinance was dropped on it by the Americans than was used in both the eastern and western fronts in WW2.

Vietnam has problems as does everywhere. 50% of them could be fixed by not dropping rubbish everywhere, not burning shit on the side of the road and finally not driving like complete crazy - I don't mind the culture of the people owning the streets, but driving the wrong way at night with no lights and talking on the mobile is just stupid.

Also standards of living globally have dropped since about 1980 or so.  The only people making money are the super rich ie just 8 billionaires today have the same amount of wealth as 50% of the globes population. (The poorest 50% - added for clarity)

Also standards of living globally have dropped since about 1980 or so.  The only people making money are the super rich ie just 8 billionaires have the same amount of wealth as 50% of the globes population.

I presume you mean 50% of lower income earners.

Here is the correct quote from Oxfam.

Eight men own the same wealth as the 3.6 billion people who make up the poorest half of humanity, according to a new report published by Oxfam today to mark the annual meeting of political and business leaders in Davos.

Ciambella wrote:

mattyw2 wrote:

Vietnam's doing pretty well given how badly she was beat up for decades by the French and then Americans.

Actually, quality of life is lower now than the years pre-1975. And the country has lost, permanently, its natural beauty due to the ravage for personal gain that happened immediately after the war.

Let's not rewrite history. The 'American' war was not US vs Vietnam. It was a Vietnamese civil war. The US and allies Australia, South Korea, Philippines etc were assisting South Vietnam to repel the communist military North, and prevent SE Asia from internal and external takeovers (domino theory). Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia fell, but Thailand and Malaysia and Indonesia didn't.

I think a lot of Vietnamese would disagree that "quality of life is lower" and the "country has lost, permanently, its natural beauty".
Leftist hyperbole. I'm pretty sure they are proud to see their country modernizing, from an 85% rural rice paddy culture in 1960 to a "developing" nation with modern health care, lifespan of 75, where many up-and-coming middle class families can afford a nice house, a car, and sending their children overseas for college.

Oh the good old days, the simple life on the farm, no need for school, life in a puny hut, a buffalo cart, backbreaking work, live until 60, buried in the field.

You are a US CITIZEN? Still belive on the old lies?

They would have developed regardless of America coming in bombing them to development.   The vietnamese were never doing fantastically under the colonial rule. And the Southern government was always a puppet government.  You need to get yourself some war documentaries (american ones) and some popcorn and open your mind a bit.   My family is split, half were with south including grandpa who was the general in charge of the central region and grandma VC logistics.   I side with the Vietnamese.  They even describe their job as working for the Americans and before that the French - they don't call it working for the South Vietnamese Govt.

@ Gobot -- Please excuse this verbose reply. I would just skim through if I were you.   

My comment was based on my own life in this country (mostly in Saigon) pre-1975 and my observations during the several visits I made 30+ years later.  It had nothing to do with politic, but if you must know, the only leftist part of my life was the location of the state where I lived.

I was born and grew up in a family that was mostly one-income and smack dab middle class.  Father taught French in Trường Bưởi in Hanoi, the country's most famous high school for boys.  In 1954, Trường Bưởi and its staff were moved to Saigon and its name was changed to Chu Văn An.  Father became Assistant Principal in charge of Attendance and Discipline (Giám Thị) there.  After being mandatory retired at age 60, he worked part time for a few years as a custodian for Ministry of National Education (Bộ Quốc Gia Giáo Dục) to supplement his retirement income.  Mother never worked outside of the house.  Periodically, their oldest son helped with the household expense.

"Many up-and-coming middle class families can afford a nice house, a car, and sending their children overseas for college."  Our family had always owned our homes.  When all 6 children were living at home, the house was fairly large, then it became smaller and smaller after each child got married and moved out (we moved house a lot.)

From the early '60s on, two of my older siblings owned a Simca and a Citroën (I learned to drive at 15 in that Citroën.)  When all older siblings moved out and only the two youngest ones were left with the parents, we had two Honda 75cc.  From the mid '60s on, we had a washer/dryer combination, although we rarely used the dryer section of the machine.   ALL of our (men and women) clothing and shoes were tailor-made.

Oldest brother attended private high school and public university (he collected Bachelor degrees).  Three older sibling finished public high school, did not go to college.  I went to public high school (Trưng Vương) except the last year when I switched to a private school (Nguyễn Bá Tòng).  Youngest sibling went to a private school (La San Taberd) from grade 6 to 12.   

About 15 of my high school classmates (middle class families through and through) attended universities in Canada, France, Switzerland, and Germany.  One of my cousins went to medical school in Paris (he still lives there, but has retired as a physician many years ago.) After college, my oldest brother received grants to the US and Taiwan, and came back as one of the first airport controllers in VN.

In college, I attended University of Saigon (Faculty of Letters), graduated with a double major (Eastern Philosophy and Ancient Languages), then going part-time for Masters when the war ended.  With a BA and my other modern language education, I taught Vietnamese Literature and French for 9th graders of a public high school in Pleiku, then for 11th graders of a private high school in Saigon, earning a salary that was a hundredfold more than a college grad could earn anywhere in VN now.

"Modern health care, lifespan of 75"  My father was born in 1902 and died in 1980.  Mother was born in 1913 and died in 2000 (granted, she died in the States). 

Saigon back then had the look of a European city with mature trees that formed canopies overhead, cobblestone on the streets, villas with fragrant plumerias, and bookstores galore.  Middle class houses were sturdily constructed in bricks and stones (father designed and had one of our homes built in ferroconcrete.  It still looked the same the last time I saw it, in District 11.)  The College Quarter where the University of Saigon and 3 of its faculties (College of Letters, College of Law, and College of Pharmacy) were located was filled with beautiful campus quads, stone benches, and fountains.  The streets in the city were clean, and traffic were in equal number of automobiles and motorbikes, plus cyclos, Lambro, buses, and some bicycles.

My first return to the country was in 2006, and it was a HUGE shock.  I had never seen so much street food in the 22 years living there than I saw during the first month of that visit.  ALL the trees were gone (I was told they're cut down to use in construction.)  Streets were filthy; stones were pulled off.  Houses were slapped-together jumbles that were erected without rhyme, reason,  safety, and atheistic.  The colleges were destroyed,  The quads disappeared without trace.  I didn't see modernization, only a rush for survival everywhere.  The level of education found in the average resident was incredibly low. 

The quality of life as I knew it was gone.  The beauty of the city that I called home was gone.  The explosion of the city population might have something to do with the drastic change, but I had a feeling it's also because of the way people reacted to their unstable new life.

I wasn't the only person who was saddened by the new Saigon.  Thousands of Overseas Vietnamese felt the same way as I did when they made their pilgrimage to the country.  Hundreds of articles were written and dozens of concerts were held to mourn the death of Old Saigon.  Not the political death, but the true-life disappearance.

Saigon in 2017 is less chaotic (although not much less filthy) than Saigon in 2006, and houses look less flimsy, but I cannot affirm that the quality of life for its middle class is better than the years before 1975.  My generation back then went to the library, strolled the centre at weekends, enjoyed the cinemas, and read books for fun.  The people of my parents generation always had leisure time to visit friends, temples, and churches.  Not many families needed second income earners back then, while everyone who lives in Saigon now is too busy scratching a living.  Contentment?  Yes, but that's only because the Vietnamese can adapt to even the harshest condition.  Quality?  Not so much.

Ciambella you weren't middle class. You were in an elite educated and most likely connected political class.  Your father had a top position at a top school.   Of course Vietnam was run down and has had a long hard road to rebuild.  The US had destroyed the wealth of the country by funding a war for more than a decade following the french doing the same.  And then imposed sanctions.  Vietnam got invaded by Cambodia and then China immediately after the war to make the situation even more difficult.   

Real middle class children today study at school then read books and take extra classes. Vietnamese today are obsessed with education and some really smart kids are coming out of the education system.  I have a programmer I employ here who is a super performer and could be working in Silicon Valley for Google etc.

I can see the term "elite" being applied to my family because most of us worked in education field, but we're definitely a middle class family living in middle and working class neighbourhoods, and mother often ran out of grocery money.  Being educated did not make us elite in real life.  The salary father received (he was paid in arrears, once a month) was decidedly not enough to raised 6 children, so every summer, he had to find other jobs to replace the lost income.  After retirement, he worked as a custodian (janitor) so definitely a working class job there.

Political connection? Not one iota.  Not with the North, not with the South.  Oldest brother was the only person who worked for the government, as an airport controller, until the stress of the job gave him a life-threatening ulcer (had to have 2/3 of his stomach cut off) and he found jobs in private sector after that. 

In fact, because we're mostly teachers and our lives were humdrum, none of us was in fear of being captured for re-education camp.  The new regime neither cared to investigate our family members who were there after the war ended nor bothered to take our homes.  Our education was the only thing that separated us from many middle class families, and only because father held a very firm belief that we should never stop educating ourselves.

So now it sounds like similar hard work as today for your father, even though he had a top job.   Today people in that kind of role are very well off.  Usually with a modern air conditioned car. Air conditioned 3-4 story house.  So I can't see that the past was well ahead of now at all.  What you're saying doesn't really demonstrate that.  My family in Australia had my father as the soul parent and to bring up six kids (I have the same number of siblings as you) he had to work around the clock with a computing business in the 60s 70s and 80s.  We lived 20km out of Melbourne Australia in a middle class suburb sharing it with tradesman and workers mostly ie plumbers, builders, electricians and clerical staff.  Your life then sounds like life in Australia then which sounds like life in Vietnam now (though the middle class Vietnamese tend to have a more fancy house.

I wouldn't say it was hard work for my father and he never worked around the clock, although I now think he often worried about finance (who wouldn't, with that many mouths to feed?)  He worked school hours (7:30 - noon), 6 days a week, 9 months each year.  In the summer, he worked other jobs because school was out and he didn't have a salary.  The mandatory retirement age was low, so with two school age children (13 and 10) left to raise, he had to find a part time job to supplement his retirement income.

With his salary and steadfast will, two of his children got advance degrees.  He always owned very well-built houses with a washer/dryer (not a common item 50+ years ago). No, we didn't have A/C, but I didn't know any house with A/C then, not even villas. 

I still say, based on my family history and not through media reports, with the opportunities for higher education, good employment, longevity, and affordability, quality of life was much better pre-1975.  But then again, we lived first in Hanoi and later in Saigon, so my experience was probably not similar to people who lived in the countryside and who had to toil the land for a living.

Reality check - your family was elite.  Your father was running the top education apparatus of the state and you had cars when people in the west couldn't even afford them.  Very few people in South East Asia had cars in the 50s, 60s or 70s.

Reality check, for real. He's a Vice Principal of a high school. Every high school had several Vice Principals, some were in charge of attendance and disciplinary and others were in charge of teachers and curriculum.  There were a dozen high schools in Saigon at the time, so he was one of 50 or so Vice Principals in the city.  Elite?  I don't think so.

Yes, we had a car, a Citroën 2CV, which was the equivalence of an old VW Beetle, except that it was made in France.  That's why I used the terms opportunities, affordability, and quality of life.  The families of some of my classmates also had cars.  I remember one of the cars was an Opel.  Some of the teachers drove to work in automobiles.  The literature teacher when I was in 7th grade had a convertible of some kind.  Elite?  I don't think so.

BTW, automobiles were common in Western countries in the '60s.  I don't know your age thus have no idea whether you remember the VW buses that littered Woodstock.  Hippies were not rolled in dough and still they could afford travelling across the country in automobiles, certainly cars were not outside the reach of most people.

No way, it was the super well off who had cars like that in Vietnam in the 60s and 70s.   The school he was VP of was one of the top schools not just any of the normal government schools open to the masses.

Who do you think went to public schools in VN if not the masses?

However, not all members of the masses were created equal in term of brain powers, hence the different high schools.

In the old education system, any student could enroll in any high school (6th - 12th grade) of his/her choice, but to be accepted, all students had to pass the National Exam.  There was no other criteria.  Each exam paper was given a different code so students' names were not disclosed (no nepotism).

Since each high school only had a certain number of spots available, only the same number of top scorers were accepted.  IOW, if you enrolled in school A where 200 spots were opened each year, then you must be among the top 200 scorers who wished to attend that school.  And because A was a high ranking school, the competition there was much tougher than at school B even though the exam questions, essays, and the way the scores were given were exactly the same.

Rich or poor, if the score was not among the top, then the students wouldn't have any chance to attend.  The 6th grade National Exam was among the fairest of all exams I've ever experienced. 

After receiving acceptance, there were 3 more exams a student had to pass in his high school career -- at the end of 9th grade, the end of 11th grade, and the end of 12th grade (graduation).  All exams were national, but he no longer had to compete against his peers.  Unless he's a high achiever, he only needed to receive the minimum required score (sort of C grade).

There it is, the description of students who were accepted to the top high school back then: not children of high power parents or rich families, but youths with either strong brain powers or who were good test takers.

To make certain that I was accepted to Trung Vuong, the best high school for girls, father and oldest brother put me through a rigorous daily training for 9 months before the exam.  It worked.

So your training from your father and brother was something not available to the masses as the masses were busy growing your food, building your roads and serving you in various other ways.  They didn't have the skills.  You had your family advantage and leveraged it.  (Which is perfectly fine but just pointing out that in any society that's a luxury).

The National Exams were in addition to the scheduled tests and exams that students took every school year.  The former were to review what students learned the previous month/quarter/semester.  The latter were to review what students learned the previous school year, and being used for advancing to the next grade.

In the old system, students MUST select a foreign language at the beginning of Grade 6.  That language was a major part of the curriculum, with 7 hrs of lessons each week for 6 school years.  Upon leaving school, students would have had roughly 1500 hours of grammar, vocabulary, conversation, and more.

Then at Grade 10, students MUST choose one of the 3 paths available to ALL students of ALL public high schools:  Science (A), Math (B), or Literature/Language (C).  If a student decided on Path C, s/he would have to select a second foreign language to study during the last 3 years of high school, at 5 hrs/wk or approximately 500 hours of lessons. 

For those students in Path C, while the second foreign language was not as serious a subject as the first one, they would have to start digging deeply into the culture of their first foreign language.  In my Path C class, my friends and I had to take weekly tests and write monthly essays (in French) on the works of Victor Hugo, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Honoré de Balzac, Jean de La Fontaine, Alexandre Dumas (père), and Marcel Proust.  At the time of our leaving school, our French was very solid, and that skill became a great help for my classmates who applied for college scholarships in France, Switzerland, and Canada.

Reading the posts from the locals (who all stated that they can speak English) on these forums, I have a feeling that the new education system is seriously lacking substance.

I speak English with many older people educated under the old system.  And their English is not up to the standard of most young people here.

mattyw2 wrote:

So your training from your father and brother was something not available to the masses as the masses were busy growing your food, building your roads and serving you in various other ways.  They didn't have the skills.  You had your family advantage and leveraged it.  (Which is perfectly fine but just pointing out that in any society that's a luxury).

No, Matty, the young people portion of the "masses", if they attended high schools as the law said they should, then they would have received the same kind of curriculum as I had.  Public high schools were free for all, and there was no reason to think the "masses" didn't possess brain power or weren't good test takers.

If they didn't attend high schools even though the law said they should, then it's a moot point.

Skills are what one achieves by repeated practice, and repeated practice can be done even when one was busy doing other things to survive.  Have you ever wondered how Vietnamese market vendors, especially the women, became outstanding at mental math?

I had a good family support system when it came to education (not to all other parts of my life, but that's neither here nor there).  Father and brother believed that if they molded me to a certain path early in life, then my future might not become chancy.  They had their own problems and worries to deal with while training me, but for some reason, they decided that I was worth the sacrifice.  Was family support a luxury?  Yes, but it's not a rarity and it certainly wasn't exclusive to any socioeconomic status.

In 1954 when we (and the other 1 million Northerners) moved from the North to the South, my oldest brother, even with great language skills and greater brain, had to interrupt his education to help our parents in their new life (no possession, no home, uncertain future, too many young mouths to feed.)  At 20, he joined a vaudeville company as a Jack of All Trades.  Travelling all over the country with the company, he wrote their plays, understudied their parts, set up the stage and took it apart, cleaned the floor, beat the rugs, carried the water, helped the cook, etc. and etc.  He couldn't see his parents and younger siblings at all for 3 years, although he sent home the money whenever he could. 

After 3 years, he returned home, enrolled in college (free), applied for a job at Tan Son Nhat Airport, only because our house was a few miles away and he could take the bus to work.  I don't remember what job he got at first, but less than a year later, he applied for and received a grant to be trained as air traffic controller.  He made very good money and was able to help father raising their other 5 children, but in the exchange, he lost 2/3 of his stomach.  I don't think he regretted that.

What was our family's advantage?  We persevered until we achieved. 

Did I take advantage of the family advantage?  Between age 10 and 11, I was told to do 100 velocity math problems a day, every day for 9 months, until I could literally saw the solution in my sleep;  I obeyed.  I was told to memorize the names of the monarchs and the years of their reins until I could recite it backwards and forwards;  I obeyed.  I was told to draw the map of the country, with all the large cities, mountains, and rivers, over and over until I knew instinctively the geographic order of all landmarks;  I obeyed. 

Father and brother earned the skills through their perseverance.  I earned the skills because I had no choice.  It's a spot in the best high school or bust.  It's fluency in French or bust.  It's self-sufficient or bust.  Actually, the "or" was not needed in those sentences since busting wasn't an option.

No, father and brother's training was not available to the masses because they both had enough of a handful already with their problems and mine, but even if they could do it, I have a feeling the masses wouldn't want to adopt that kind of training anyway.  (I didn't offer it to my children, and they grew up just fine.)  It's a boot camp for the mind where failure wasn't allowed.  If you want to call that kind of discipline an advantage and a luxury, then I would agree with you that I was wrapped in advantage and luxury until they became a part of me, until I had become both the trainer and the trainee and I didn't need father and brother's presence anymore.

Advantage and luxury?  <snort>

Doesn't change the fact you had a privileged upbringing that is privileged in any society.

I have to give up on this discussion since our definitions of privileged upbringing are not one and the same.  Thank you though, for a good conversation.