How do you invest in Vietnam real estate?

THIGV wrote:

CoderX10 wrote:

Yea, that VinGroup project in D4 is going to be awhile. Its currently still being partially used as a shipyard.

Shipyard?
Consider the possibility of toxic or even carcinogenic materials in the soil. 

Actually, its more of a port than a shipyard. Its the last port in core HCMC but it is not in full operation. The government wants to relocate all ports in HCMC to Cat Lai as they recognize that its adding more pressure on traffic from container trucks. No worries though, VinGroup has experience in this arena as their other developments such as VinHome Central Park and Golden River are located on former government ports. VinGroup, to me, has first right of refusal for any major government land for sale as the chairman is well connected to the north and has all the money in the world.

CoderX10 wrote:

THIGV wrote:

CoderX10 wrote:

Yea, that VinGroup project in D4 is going to be awhile. Its currently still being partially used as a shipyard.

Shipyard?
Consider the possibility of toxic or even carcinogenic materials in the soil. 

Actually, its more of a port than a shipyard. Its the last port in core HCMC but it is not in full operation. The government wants to relocate all ports in HCMC to Cat Lai as they recognize that its adding more pressure on traffic from container trucks. No worries though, VinGroup has experience in this arena as their other developments such as VinHome Central Park and Golden River are located on former government ports. VinGroup, to me, has first right of refusal for any major government land for sale as the chairman is well connected to the north and has all the money in the world.

He got very wealthy due to his connections. Vingroup seems to want to take over VN.

colinoscapee wrote:

He got very wealthy due to his connections. Vingroup seems to want to take over VN.

According to Forbes 2019 Billionaire List, his assets of $6.6 billions ranks him as 239th richest person in the world, passing 700+ other billionaires since 2013, the first year he was mentioned by Forbes.  At $2.3 Billions, the owner of Vietjet holds the 1008th slot.

Ciambella wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

He got very wealthy due to his connections. Vingroup seems to want to take over VN.

According to Forbes 2019 Billionaire List, his assets of $6.6 billions ranks him as 239th richest person in the world, passing 700+ other billionaires since 2013, the first year he was mentioned by Forbes.  At $2.3 Billions, his wife, owner of Vietjet, holds the 1008th slot.

I think you will find the owner of Vietjet is not his wife. Vietjet owners name is Nguyễn Thị Phương Thảo, she also owns HD Bank and Dragon Capital.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguy%E1 … %E1%BA%A3o

Yes, I realized the mistake, correcting it at the same time you posted.

His wife's assets on record is $700M, she'll need another $300M before reaching the last slot on the billionaire list

CoderX10 wrote:

THIGV wrote:

CoderX10 wrote:

Yea, that VinGroup project in D4 is going to be awhile. Its currently still being partially used as a shipyard.

Shipyard?
Consider the possibility of toxic or even carcinogenic materials in the soil. 

Actually, its more of a port than a shipyard. Its the last port in core HCMC but it is not in full operation. The government wants to relocate all ports in HCMC to Cat Lai as they recognize that its adding more pressure on traffic from container trucks. No worries though, VinGroup has experience in this arena as their other developments such as VinHome Central Park and Golden River are located on former government ports. VinGroup, to me, has first right of refusal for any major government land for sale as the chairman is well connected to the north and has all the money in the world.

My mistake, saigon pearl is that other
development by another company. Theres icon56, which they sold as a river view roof top pool, then I was like... what are you building next door and how many floors is it? Think it was two higher than the roof top of icon 56. They then Moved on to tressor and its river views but stayed very quiet about what was happening next door, that was going to be latest and greatest river view popping up from them whilst failing to mention what vinhomes are planning to do.

I overlayed the map (which was probably inaccurate but the road matched)  from vinhomes onto google maps and worked out what part of the river can be seen from that last novaland project going up...royale park? You will only be able to see above the ho chi minh museum which I assume even the greedy government officials would never demolish to sell to vingroup. To the left is that ghost of a shell incompete building. I find it funny they tried to sell you on the river views of each of the apartment buildings going up whilst also building next door knowing they would be covering it. That canal outside is no river.

If they ever begin work and begin selling units along the d4 river front, that's where I'm buying.

Fred wrote:

@ phikachu

Sir, your sunset

https://i.ibb.co/xFGhTpq/99-F3-AD01-007 … 40-D13.png

Thanks for the fix.

Because the development is a semicircle, It's one of only 4 units that can see it all year round.

Great tool for photographers if you need to work out positions of sunsets.

http://suncalc.net/#/50.8684,-1.4027,10 … 7.12/08:08

THIGV wrote:

MarcoD22 wrote:

@THIGV and @Codex

Your account has been disabled. The ban expires on 2019-07-10.

It looks like the ban was rather short and is obviously over.  Why sweat it?

in a case like this, a PM to one of the moderators will probably be more productive than an open message.

Hi THIGV

What kind of forum is that?

I did as you say. I start chatting with a moderator who tells me I must fill a form. So, a couple of days ago, I fill a form. No answer so far.........
Do they ever answer one day???????

MarcoD22 wrote:

THIGV wrote:

MarcoD22 wrote:

@THIGV and @Codex

Your account has been disabled. The ban expires on 2019-07-10.

It looks like the ban was rather short and is obviously over.  Why sweat it?

in a case like this, a PM to one of the moderators will probably be more productive than an open message.

Hi THIGV

What kind of forum is that?

I did as you say. I start chatting with a moderator who tells me I must fill a form. So, a couple of days ago, I fill a form. No answer so far.........
Do they ever answer one day???????

Still no answer from moderation, I am a patient person. Take your time.

MarcoD22 wrote:

MarcoD22 wrote:

THIGV wrote:

It looks like the ban was rather short and is obviously over.  Why sweat it?

in a case like this, a PM to one of the moderators will probably be more productive than an open message.

Hi THIGV

What kind of forum is that?

I did as you say. I start chatting with a moderator who tells me I must fill a form. So, a couple of days ago, I fill a form. No answer so far.........
Do they ever answer one day???????

Still no answer from moderation, I am a patient person. Take your time.

Seeing as it was the weekend, dont expect a reply till today or the next few days.

Perhaps you should refocus yourself on substantive questions and drop the procedural questions.  Please do not consider this a threat as I am in no position to do so.  It is just my opinion and advice.  You are not banned, leave it at that.  On other forums, publicly questioning the moderators, even once, will result in an instant permanent ban.  This place is actually rather tolerant by comparison.

@MarcoD22:  Gobot has discovered the reason for your PAST problem (past, as the ban was temporary, has expired 5 days ago, and does not affect your present posts.) 

Please read the other thread where you also brought up this issue.

Hey, seems like a lot of you guys live in Saigon now and have been there for quite a long time and have seen a lot of these new development.  I haven't seen much talk about district 7.  Is that too established now to be good investment?

During the holidays, I visited a few developments.  My agent was steering me towards Keppel Land, Masteri and Infiniti.  I thought the quality of the the models were really good compared to the development from other builders.  I was disappointed I wasn't allowed to see the grounds, only the models in their sales office.  I mentioned I would never buy something just based on the sale office's model setup.  Is this common practice not to allow potential buyers onto the communal areas?  Also, what do you guys think of the Infiniti?  I'm still just watching and learning about the Saigon market and probably won't pull the trigger till I move there and have lived there for a few years. 

I still firmly believe we're in a global housing bubble caused by Chinese money.  Even in the US, home prices have inflated to the point that the average person can't afford them and millenials have given up on home ownership.  5 or 6 years back, there were a lot of “investors” from China and Russia in the Bay Area.  They didn't even live in the units or rent them out.  They just “invested” and pushed prices to such a high point that it displaced locals. Now, they've been pulling back the last few years, but the damage has been done.  The same happened in LA and Vancouver.  It's happened across the country.  House prices in sleepy towns in the middle of nowhere are selling for hundreds of thousands or into the millions without the income to support the prices.  Keeping my powder dry and buying time.

sflxn wrote:

I haven't seen much talk about district 7.  Is that too established now to be good investment?

During the holidays, I visited a few developments.  My agent was steering me towards Keppel Land, Masteri and Infiniti.  I thought the quality of the the models were really good compared to the development from other builders.  I was disappointed I wasn't allowed to see the grounds, only the models in their sales office.  I mentioned I would never buy something just based on the sale office's model setup.  Is this common practice not to allow potential buyers onto the communal areas?  Also, what do you guys think of the Infiniti?  I'm still just watching and learning about the Saigon market and probably won't pull the trigger till I move there and have lived there for a few years. 

I still firmly believe we're in a global housing bubble caused by Chinese money.  Even in the US, home prices have inflated to the point that the average person can't afford them and millenials have given up on home ownership.  5 or 6 years back, there were a lot of “investors” from China and Russia in the Bay Area.  They didn't even live in the units or rent them out.  They just “invested” and pushed prices to such a high point that it displaced locals. Now, they've been pulling back the last few years, but the damage has been done.  The same happened in LA and Vancouver.  It's happened across the country.  House prices in sleepy towns in the middle of nowhere are selling for hundreds of thousands or into the millions without the income to support the prices.  Keeping my powder dry and buying time.

IMO, i'm not a big fan of District 7 with the exception of Phu My Hung. The reason is that these developments such as Infinite are too far away from city center of District 1. For you to get from D7 to D1, you have to cross D4 specifically going down Nguyen Tat Thanh, which traffic can be a nightmare as it is only 2 lanes each direction. Can take you over an hour during rush hour traffic.

As for the model unit in the sales gallery, that is what you only get to see as the site is currently under construction. When they start the sales process, these projects are barely getting off the ground with the foundation only being completed. Having random people wander on a construction site can be dangerous and a liability for the developer. However, if you wait to see the actual communal ground when it is completed, the project may be sold out of foreign quota by then. But don't fret, most of these developments use similar interior construction material ie ceramic tile flooring in the living area and laminated engineered wood flooring for the bedroom. The fixtures and appliance package, if any, are very basic as well. You won't see marble, real wood floors, and high end fixtures/appliance package unless your paying $7000+ USD/square meter.

What aspect of the Vietnam market do you see bubble occurring? Chinese money or any foreign money has no big effect in Vietnam as foreigners are only allowed to buy 30% of the inventory. In the USA, maybe as there's no restriction on foreign ownership. With the current lucky draw system in Vietnam, even if you have money and want to buy, it will be all based on luck. You can only buy if your name is selected. 300 units for sale with 3000 bookings gives you a 10% chance to buy. Your odds is even lower if you are targeting a specific unit. Also, some developers have stopped selling properties to mainland Chinese buyers as their passport have the 9 dash line on one of the passport pages.

Upward price pressure is also caused by Vietnamese get-rich-quick condo flippers. Not that they can sell them but it causes scarcity while they wait for demand for their building to skyrocket.
And wait. And wait.
Meanwhile, three more nearby buildings are coming to market with higher-per-square-meter prices because "look at all the demand", and loading up with the next generation of flippers.
There are a lot of poor people in Vietnam, median wage $240, but also a seemingly endless class of investors.

gobot wrote:

There are a lot of poor people in Vietnam, median wage $240, but also a seemingly endless class of investors.

We keep seeing the $240 or similar numbers, but with respect to condos in HCM they are rather meaningless.  I don't question its mathematical correctness.  It's just that it includes millions who live in the countryside, pay no rent and eat produce from the garden and fish from the river.  Has anyone ever seen a figure for average salaries within HCM or better yet within the central districts?

@CoderX10

Thanks for the reply.  You reconfirmed my fears of D7.  It is very far from D1, but the build up and traffic there is much calmer than D1.  I've heard that area has a lot more infrastructure for expats.  I'll be there in a few month and have a strategy of using airbnb to get a feel of several districts before I figure out what each one is all about.

I don't necessarily see a bubble in Vietnam.  I see a worldwide bubble caused by mainland Chinese speculators trying to get their money out of the country.  The massive bubble in China and Australia was caused in a large part by mainland speculators.  The same can be said of the American and Canadian West coast.  In Silicon Valley, there are a lot of streets that are empty.  No one live in the houses.  No one rents the houses.  They're owned by speculators from China.  They're all playing the capital appreciation game.  I've read that these speculators are also playing in SE Asia and driving up the value.  As the Chinese government crack down on money flowing out of the mainland, the demand will shrink and the prices will follow.  In California, we're already seeing the effects.  Speculators are not the only reason for California's housing softness, but the loss of these speculator has been felt.

In the long run, Vietnam has a spectacular future if they continue to focus on codifying the law, but in the short run, there will be some softness.  What we saw on the west coast of the US/Canada is starting to show up in SE Asia.  Annectdotal stories of softness in Thai tourism.  Hanoi curbing new development in Saigon due to weakening demand (according to the agent showing me around).  We're at the end of a world wide economical cycle.  I intend to keep cash on hand and ready.  I will be patient.

THIGV wrote:

We keep seeing the $240 or similar numbers, but with respect to condos in HCM they are rather meaningless.  I don't question its mathematical correctness.  It's just that it includes millions who live in the countryside, pay no rent and eat produce from the garden and fish from the river.  Has anyone ever seen a figure for average salaries within HCM or better yet within the central districts?

Good point. Lots in the city live at home, pay no rent and shop at markets, too. It is difficult to find out real statistics. Articles from 2016 say the middle class will double by 2020. I don't know about that. And what is meant by middle class? What percent are middle class? I can't find where the govt reveals this data, I doubt they even know it because banks don't have people's money, there is no income reporting for tax forms, businesses probably not audited, etc.

Without data, lucky us, we can wildly speculate!

sflxn wrote:

@CoderX10

I don't necessarily see a bubble in Vietnam.  I see a worldwide bubble caused by mainland Chinese speculators trying to get their money out of the country.  The massive bubble in China and Australia was caused in a large part by mainland speculators.  The same can be said of the American and Canadian West coast.  In Silicon Valley, there are a lot of streets that are empty.  No one live in the houses.  No one rents the houses.  They're owned by speculators from China.  They're all playing the capital appreciation game.  I've read that these speculators are also playing in SE Asia and driving up the value.  As the Chinese government crack down on money flowing out of the mainland, the demand will shrink and the prices will follow.  In California, we're already seeing the effects.  Speculators are not the only reason for California's housing softness, but the loss of these speculator has been felt.

I don't tend to focus on Chinese speculators as they represent a small portion of the overall market. What they are doing is parking their money in gateway cities such as Southern and Northern California, Vancouver, and New York because of the stable economic drivers and high property value. You don't see them "speculating" in the mid west do you? They don't need to rent it out because again, they are just parking their money outside of China. For them to rent it out, they would have to file income tax on the rental income, and most choose not to go down that route because its an inconvenience for them. These investors are so concern with China's government that as long as they can get their money out of China and into an asset they are happy. What better asset than core USA real estate? I would do the same if I was in their shoes. They also buy with all cash and not exposed to debt. When I think of bubble I tend to think of high leverage and mass foreclosures.

What I do focus on is world events that are unpredictable since our economies are intertwine with each other, specifically the US and Chinese economies. For example, if the tension with Iran were to escalate to the point where the USA is bombing Iran or tension with China over the South China Sea escalate or North Korea etc., you can bet your bottom dollar there will a market correction world wide.

PS - Demand for HCMC apartments is very strong as since 1999 there have been 268,135 units completed. Currently, only 5% remaining available for sale which represents a strong absorption rate. Hanoi has nothing to do with projects getting approved in HCMC as that is govern by the People's Committee of HCMC. They have been curbing new approval for projects in downtown HCMC areas because these high rise put additional strain on traffic. And we all know how back the traffic in HCMC can get. District 1, 3, and 5 are not approving new construction permits until 2020 for the very same reason.

CoderX10 wrote:

sflxn wrote:

@CoderX10

I don't necessarily see a bubble in Vietnam.  I see a worldwide bubble caused by mainland Chinese speculators trying to get their money out of the country.  The massive bubble in China and Australia was caused in a large part by mainland speculators.  The same can be said of the American and Canadian West coast.  In Silicon Valley, there are a lot of streets that are empty.  No one live in the houses.  No one rents the houses.  They're owned by speculators from China.  They're all playing the capital appreciation game.  I've read that these speculators are also playing in SE Asia and driving up the value.  As the Chinese government crack down on money flowing out of the mainland, the demand will shrink and the prices will follow.  In California, we're already seeing the effects.  Speculators are not the only reason for California's housing softness, but the loss of these speculator has been felt.

I don't tend to focus on Chinese speculators as they represent a small portion of the overall market. What they are doing is parking their money in gateway cities such as Southern and Northern California, Vancouver, and New York because of the stable economic drivers and high property value. You don't see them "speculating" in the mid west do you? They don't need to rent it out because again, they are just parking their money outside of China. For them to rent it out, they would have to file income tax on the rental income, and most choose not to go down that route because its an inconvenience for them. These investors are so concern with China's government that as long as they can get their money out of China and into an asset they are happy. What better asset than core USA real estate? I would do the same if I was in their shoes. They also buy with all cash and not exposed to debt. When I think of bubble I tend to think of high leverage and mass foreclosures.

What I do focus on is world events that are unpredictable since our economies are intertwine with each other, specifically the US and Chinese economies. For example, if the tension with Iran were to escalate to the point where the USA is bombing Iran or tension with China over the South China Sea escalate or North Korea etc., you can bet your bottom dollar there will a market correction world wide.

PS - Demand for HCMC apartments is very strong as since 1999 there have been 268,135 units completed. Currently, only 5% remaining available for sale which represents a strong absorption rate. Hanoi has nothing to do with projects getting approved in HCMC as that is govern by the People's Committee of HCMC. They have been curbing new approval for projects in downtown HCMC areas because these high rise put additional strain on traffic. And we all know how back the traffic in HCMC can get. District 1, 3, and 5 are not approving new construction permits until 2020 for the very same reason.

Just been on a busyness trip to budapest for the weekend. I learnt more about the Chinese there   than about Hungarians. They are putting down 300k euro deposits for residency rights, which after 5 years they gain “EU citizenship” they will then move on to even richer western countries or go back home after securing their new hunagrian passports. They also get back their 300k deposit but to arrange of all this, costs 50k euros. They are effectively buying citizenship in 5 years for 50k euros and by lending the hungarian government 300k euros. There's only 2 countries in the EU that are doing this. The even richer ones are going for Canadian passports.

Thats how desperate they are to get their cash out in case something bad happens at home. Whilst at the same time squeezing as much reminibi out of the country as they can.

Oh, I suspect the Vietnamese lady (my supplier) I was meeting there is also there on that scheme.

phikachu wrote:

Just been on a busyness trip to budapest for the weekend. I learnt more about the Chinese there   than about Hungarians. They are putting down 300k euro deposits for residency rights, which after 5 years they gain “EU citizenship” they will then move on to even richer western countries or go back home after securing their new hunagrian passports.

I have  seen ads which directly offer Maltese passports for $1 million.  Malta is an EU country since 2004.  I expect these adds are targeted to individuals, so not all may have seen them.  I guess the algorithm suspected that I needed to flee the US and that I had a spare $1 million lying around.   

THIGV wrote:

I have  seen ads which directly offer Maltese passports for $1 million.

Yes, right here in expat.com when I had my adblock turned off for some reason.

THIGV wrote:

phikachu wrote:

Just been on a busyness trip to budapest for the weekend. I learnt more about the Chinese there   than about Hungarians. They are putting down 300k euro deposits for residency rights, which after 5 years they gain “EU citizenship” they will then move on to even richer western countries or go back home after securing their new hunagrian passports.

I have  seen ads which directly offer Maltese passports for $1 million.  Malta is an EU country since 2004.  I expect these adds are targeted to individuals, so not all may have seen them.  I guess the algorithm suspected that I needed to flee the US and that I had a spare $1 million lying around.   

Which makes the hungarian route even more popular and attractive. 300k is a good ROI for your childrens health and future. It only actually costs you 50k euros to eventually get hungarian citizenship. Yeah its the poorest country in the EU but after 5 years you get the freedom of movement thing. I like to visit the china towns in all countries I visit and this ones very different dominated by 1st generation mainland chinese with a LOT of money floating around.

phikachu wrote:

There's only 2 countries in the EU that are doing this. The even richer ones are going for Canadian passports.

There are a lot more than 2 countries.  Britain, Bulgaria, Czech, Estonia, Ireland, Greece, Spain, France, Croatia, Italy, Cyprus, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania and Slovakia also offer more or less the same program -- some made it easier to retrieve the investment funds than others.

My husband's daughter, her husband, and two children (9 and 12) are moving to Spain in Sept under the €500k Golden Visa via a newly purchase property in Sotogrande.  Unlike the Chinese, they plan to make Spain their permanent home.  They've spent the last 3 years preparing their children for the move with daily lessons in Spanish language and culture, then spent every summer in various parts of the country.

One of my nieces here in Vietnam received a 10-year visa to Canada last year and is now in the process of acquiring Canadian permanent residency via investment.

Ciambella wrote:

phikachu wrote:

There's only 2 countries in the EU that are doing this. The even richer ones are going for Canadian passports.

There are a lot more than 2 countries.  Britain, Bulgaria, Czech, Estonia, Ireland, Greece, Spain, France, Croatia, Italy, Cyprus, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania and Slovakia also offer more or less the same program -- some made it easier to retrieve the investment funds than others.

The US also has a similar program called EB-5. For an investment made into USA real estate in the amount of 500k will get you and your family green cards and a direct path towards citizenship. The US approve approximately 10,000 applications per year with China dominating at 80%. Currently there is a 15 year wait list in China for EB-5 which is probably why they are looking for routes out of the country.

Ciambella wrote:

phikachu wrote:

There's only 2 countries in the EU that are doing this. The even richer ones are going for Canadian passports.

There are a lot more than 2 countries.  Britain, Bulgaria, Czech, Estonia, Ireland, Greece, Spain, France, Croatia, Italy, Cyprus, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania and Slovakia also offer more or less the same program -- some made it easier to retrieve the investment funds than others.

My husband's daughter, her husband, and two children (9 and 12) are moving to Spain in Sept under the €500k Golden Visa via a newly purchase property in Sotogrande.  Unlike the Chinese, they plan to make Spain their permanent home.  They've spent the last 3 years preparing their children for the move with daily lessons in Spanish language and culture, then spent every summer in various parts of the country.

One of my nieces here in Vietnam received a 10-year visa to Canada last year and is now in the process of acquiring Canadian permanent residency via investment.

I got that from an article which was probably referring to just how easy it was. You buy a government bond, you get it back minimum 5 years later after becoming a hungarian citizen.

Uk investment visa, you're talking millions. As for spain, it looks likes you have to get 1 year, then two years followed and eventually 10 year pr visa. You must also spend 6 months of your time every year there.

I know of the US one where I think you have to invest through opening a company and employing a minimum number of people to get residency. I think only the wealthiest of Chinese   go through this route.

300k bond and 50k euros fee on the other hand, opens it up to most middle class. The key difference is you're supposed to get your money back after 5 years. But after reading this... i wonder if they ever will.

https://www.occrp.org/en/goldforvisas/f … e-and-fear

phikachu wrote:

THIGV wrote:

phikachu wrote:

Just been on a busyness trip to budapest for the weekend. I learnt more about the Chinese there   than about Hungarians. They are putting down 300k euro deposits for residency rights, which after 5 years they gain “EU citizenship” they will then move on to even richer western countries or go back home after securing their new hunagrian passports.

I have  seen ads which directly offer Maltese passports for $1 million.  Malta is an EU country since 2004.  I expect these adds are targeted to individuals, so not all may have seen them.  I guess the algorithm suspected that I needed to flee the US and that I had a spare $1 million lying around.   

Which makes the hungarian route even more popular and attractive. 300k is a good ROI for your childrens health and future. It only actually costs you 50k euros to eventually get hungarian citizenship. Yeah its the poorest country in the EU but after 5 years you get the freedom of movement thing. I like to visit the china towns in all countries I visit and this ones very different dominated by 1st generation mainland chinese with a LOT of money floating around.

Hungary is definitely not the poorest country in the European Union.

Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia, Latvia and Greece are poorer and Poland is about the same.

Anyways, the cheapest residence permit you can buy at the moment in any European Union country is in Greece. Basically, you get a residence permit with a investment of EUR 250k in any real estate.

That's interesting, just read up on it.

Its actually 250,000 + 24% VAT + 15,000 legal fees so 312,600 euros which can be split over multiple properties. Still cheaper than hungary but there's always the fear of Greece leaving the EU.

phikachu wrote:

That's interesting, just read up on it.

Its actually 250,000 + 24% VAT + 15,000 legal fees so 312,600 euros which can be split over multiple properties. Still cheaper than hungary but there's always the fear of Greece leaving the EU.

Portugal has several options for Golden Visa with €250,000 the least expensive one.  It also requires the shortest stay:  7 days for the first year and 14 days for each of the 2 subsequent years.  Immediate temporary residency, then permanent residency after 5 years followed by citizenship.

Portuguese Golden Visa is one of the most secured programs among all EU countries.  My stepdaughter and her family wavered between Spain and Portugal but opted for the former (and twice expensive) due to their familiarity with the language and culture.

I'm seeing search results for 500k for portugal. If it were 250k, I would give it some serious thought for myself depending on what happens on the 31st of October.

phikachu wrote:

I'm seeing search results for 500k for portugal. If it were 250k, I would give it some serious thought for myself depending on what happens on the 31st of October.

Search the Web for Thomas K. Running's handbook on Portuguese Golden Visa.  The €250k option is  for artistic production or maintenance of national cultural heritage.

Ciambella wrote:

phikachu wrote:

That's interesting, just read up on it.

Its actually 250,000 + 24% VAT + 15,000 legal fees so 312,600 euros which can be split over multiple properties. Still cheaper than hungary but there's always the fear of Greece leaving the EU.

Portugal has several options for Golden Visa with €250,000 the least expensive one.  It also requires the shortest stay:  7 days for the first year and 14 days for each of the 2 subsequent years.  Immediate temporary residency, then permanent residency after 5 years followed by citizenship.

Portuguese Golden Visa is one of the most secured programs among all EU countries.  My stepdaughter and her family wavered between Spain and Portugal but opted for the former (and twice expensive) due to their familiarity with the language and culture.

What nationality is your step daughter now out of interest?

My supplier I met in hungary is Vietnamese, she is only just house hunting after 5 years in the country.  I assume this is because the rather substantial bond money can be released now or maybe they are more comfortable buying after  applying for citizenship

phikachu wrote:

What nationality is your step daughter now out of interest?

She's American.  Her father (my husband) is Canadian of English heritage and her mother is American of Italian heritage.  She's actually qualified for Canadian, Italian, and Irish citizenship but went for the Golden Visa short cut so her husband (American of Jewish heritage) and children can be in the same immigration package.  Finance isn't her husband's concern hence their newly purchased property in (is it in or at?) Sotogrande.

Always questioned why brits would buy in spain when the market had never until recently showing a modest recovery. But sotogrande is raking it in.

“Sotogrande seems to have kept its head above the crisis. Finanzas, a Spanish finance publication, says that whilst prices in other areas of the Costa del Sol have taken a fall to the tune of -11.4% in Torremolinos, -10.99% in Fuengirola, -7.4% in Manilva, -5-5% in Casares and -3.4% in Mijas Costa. In Sotogrande average property prices have remained the same or increased, in some cases up to 45%. This phenomenon is attributed to the financial status of the residents of the urbanization.[10]”

please don't....

Ciambella wrote:

phikachu wrote:

What nationality is your step daughter now out of interest?

She's American.  Her father (my husband) is Canadian of English heritage and her mother is American of Italian heritage.  She's actually qualified for Canadian, Italian, and Irish citizenship but went for the Golden Visa short cut so her husband (American of Jewish heritage) and children can be in the same immigration package.  Finance isn't her husband's concern hence their newly purchased property in (is it in or at?) Sotogrande.

Came across this and reminded me of what you were saying about Portugal being the easiest.

https://www.scmp.com/business/article/3 … rs-seeking

You are better off renting and sleeping peacefully at night...

foreigners cant even get a decent visa...why would you trust your hard earned on property lol.