Police in hcmc

I agree with John.   Not worth the worry.

Time for us to step back & take a deep breath, then
look at how we compare.   Everywhere else seem to
have their own peculiar problems, of tribal conflict,
(by any other name) religion, race, class, minority groups,
(etc) while we have the most trivial, squabbling over how
much to pay..?     Get real guys!

Corruption occurs at all levels, formal or informal.
Get over it.   Or pay the 5 mill. dong for doing under 15 kph
over the limit, or not wearing a seat belt.  Cheap fines.
AND loss of 'points'..? as we (used to) 'suffer' in Australia.
'Suffer' ..?    ..because everyone got used to it...

Compare?  Sure.  Go and see how you like places like
India, Myanmar, Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey or even the
great states (of paranoia) to see how easy you are
getting it here.

Pitiful.  I call it pathetic...

I've never paid a penny to them and don't ever plan too. Police are meant to protect and serve, not extort.

Whether you consider it cheap or not is relative, for foreigners with their high purchasing power it's nothing. For locals who have to live with it everyday, a shakedown can be a few days of pay.

A report each year of who the locals disrespect the most is always the same, police and lands department. So it's not just expats who dislike the police, if you are happy to pay bribes, go ahead and keep feeding the system.

nick4946 wrote:

Don't let them bully you. They will not take the bike, there is no money in that for them.
Stand your ground and refuse to pay 200,000, about 100,000 is enough. Not right I know but this is a corrupt country and it is the system here.

Nik got it right!
Never show slightest intimidation, stay on on top of the game, smile, FAST hand over a 100.000 and be off, never look or think back
( yes, me too I try to work for a better world, but also to be clever as to where and when to invest my energy .. and don't believe that me fighting police would change anything to the better )

nick4946 wrote:

Don't let them bully you. They will not take the bike, there is no money in that for them.
Stand your ground and refuse to pay 200,000, about 100,000 is enough. Not right I know but this is a corrupt country and it is the system here.

This is good advice IF you were riding in Ho Chi Minh city. Try refusing to pay when you're riding in Dong Nai or Ben Tre or any other place. And the fine won't be 200,000. They take more.

The traffic police are getting technology savvy now. They pay 500,000/day each to the xe om drivers just to sit there all day video recording the offenses and calling the traffic police down the road traffic offender is coming up.

Maybe that's who the plain clothes people beating people up are. Traffic police are known to employ gang members in their group. I watched a live police chase once. 1 bike had the cops and other bike had plain clothes men chasing down a bike.

phikachu wrote:

In regards to the police, It's not even comparable. They'd probably arrest you for trying to offer them money here.

The police in Vietnam is an instrument of the regime to bully and keep the proles in check. They are getting increasingly smart in their tactics of intimidation. Skip to the 3 minutes mark of this and you'll see the police pull back and watch as group of them without their uniforms do the intimidating and beating. I've seen this tactic for myself during the formosa protest in Hanoi. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1KghqASDXU

It's all about accountability.

Dude, you got out of a situation for $9.26 US that would have cost you $200 plus time and trouble in the States. Quit yer bitching.

JR
Da Nang

jimmythepiipe wrote:

Dude, you got out of a situation for $9.26 US that would have cost you $200 plus time and trouble in the States. Quit yer bitching.

JR
Da Nang

Jimmy i bet you're the type who'd pay $200 if they asked you nicely for it. Then they'd go around asking every other foreigner the same knowing some mugs will fall for it.

Then you'd lose. And they're doing it anyway. Go with the flow, tough guy.

If people are happy to pay bribes, go ahead. I prefer not to pay the beige Mafia.

Some of us are tougher than others

..some prefer to just post about it...

Well , that's one Christmas card you won't have to wait up for Bazz.😆🐻😆🐻😆

My not-so-secret motive is to save the trees

..I need forests to hide in...     

Who's being the tough guy telling other people to quit bitching?

A mug is British slang for someone easily fooled, usually in the context of being parted with their money. What I'm saying is the more people pay up, the bigger the problem for not only yourself but for everyone else. If you stick around long enough, the Canh Sat will recognise your face on that Minsk of yours and think easy money.

There are actually savvy locals who don't like to flash their cash on expensive bikes because it's a big stop me and ask for money sign, not just with the police either but even their neighbours.

10 years I've been going to the motherland and I've have never had to pay customs, immigration or the police anything.

BuddyM wrote:

I have never heard of or ever seen a "non motorcycle Lane" in HCMC! ... I see motorcycles drive down sidewalks (which I have swerved their handle bars towards the road much to the driver's displeasure), drive the wrong way down one-way streets, drive into shops, back out of shops, block shop entrances, conduct full-blown motor repairs on the sidewalk, drive up stairs, drive with newborn babies and pets, drive with 4 generations of family members, drive with goats & chickens, drive with reptiles, drive pulling gas cylinders behind them, drive using their phones or laptops, drive with no helmets, not stopping at signals, drive 3" at high speed from you, etc.

Nothing stops traffic though that a good cuff to the back of the helmet ... umbrellas (even on sunny days are good ideas) protectively positioned or pointed at a motorbiker's face are also useful. Sadly, I have had to elbow more idiots to the head or lean them into a post or a wall than I ever have playing ice hockey ... Fortunately, most 'locals' are not 6'4" and 220 lbs.

So, on the traffic fine of 200,000 VND (just under $9 USD), just pay the fine (unless your bike is worth less than $9!), take the cop'pers badge # and a quick quiet photo (in case you need it in the future), and drive on ... It will certainly be less painful and less embarrassing than a cuff upside the helmet assuming they are wearing one ...

The far right lane is only for motorcycles, except for cars and trucks in the process of making a right turn. The far left lane is only for cars and trucks, except for motorcycles in the process of making a left turn. The center lane, if their is one, is mostly for trucks

At least this is what I remember from the Vietnamese Drivers license study guide.

From what I see in HCMC these days, all lanes (and most sidewalk too!) are used by motorbikes. I recently straight-armed a biker at an intersection when the pedestrian "green light" was signaling. I can report he was none too happy ... he probably still has my paw-mark on this plastic helmet.

An umbrella is an extremely useful tool (even for rain!) but particularly for bikers on sidewalks. My recommendation is to wield it like a caveman when anyone gets within 10' of you and (just for fun) see how he reacts. Similarly, assume a medieval jousting position with your umbrella and point him towards the road where he should be. I also like Technique #3, which is to lean into their handle bars or mirror and watch the wobble behind you, or better, wait for the grunting sounds of the biker lip-standing against a telephone pole.

Feel free to send in your best "get-off-the-sidewalk" technique targeted towards sidewalk bikers ...

This is bad advice. Virtuous revenge on inconsiderate citizens won't end well. Better to adapt to this country's culture as much as possible, avoid superior attitudes, inspire better habits through example.

gobot wrote:

This is bad advice. Virtuous revenge on inconsiderate citizens won't end well. Better to adapt to this country's culture as much as possible, avoid superior attitudes, inspire better habits through example.

gobot is absolutely correct.
We are guests here. We are not Colonial masters.

70 years old wrote:

gobot wrote:

This is bad advice. Virtuous revenge on inconsiderate citizens won't end well. Better to adapt to this country's culture as much as possible, avoid superior attitudes, inspire better habits through example.

gobot is absolutely correct.
We are guests here. We are not Colonial masters.

True.  I even punched a "like" on Gobot's post.  Seeking conflict is never a good idea.  However, in a modern sense are we not all citizens of the world.   You must admit that there are aspects of Vietnamese behavior that really do need to change, especially if they are holding the country back by discouraging industries such as tourism.  Or you could simply say they need to change because there are worldwide norms that should be followed.  I found this observation by a Vietnamese, that people in Manila stop for pedestrians to be both enlightened on her part and enlightening:  (see post #12) https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=637996

Fully Agree with Gobot

Apart from the resulting resentment at the holier-than-thou
attitude @ Western brainwashing, it is best to think about
why (so many!) ride so carelessly.   We were brought up to
pay lip service to the golden rule; categorical imperative (etc.)
while (pretending to be)  'Independent'   (I did it my way..?)
(yet another oxymoron!)

Sadly, signing over personal responsibility to (any) Authority
also means we (unconsciously) resent the loss.   Witness the
lack of empathy and compassion, 'road rage', and passing
the buck in our Western World compared to taking full(er)
responsibility for their actions..?   But change is inevitable.

It is happening.  Not as fast as we might wish, but playing
the aggressive card will only delay changes, not help them.

Agree.  Set the better behaviours so they will copy them.
..and keep a clear conscience...   

You did the wrong thing so own up and don't xxx.

Pay the cop and move on.

I would have tried to get the fine down to 100,000 VND but that's me.

Please guys don't pay more then 200,000 VND if your in the wrong it stuff it up for everyone locals and expats.

If you are drinking driving I hope they lock you up for the night. Catch a cab if your pxxxx.

Ride your motorbike with the same rules in mind from your country and don't trust anyone on the road here in VN

I real do wish that the police would start pulling over people using there mobile phones while riding and driving.

Don't trust anyone on the road they don't look before moving out of  side streets onto the main roads.
They don't look before changing lanes on roads.
Trucks, Bus and Sprinter mini bus just don't care at all about who they clean up on the road they are a law of there own so I am always on the look out when I see one coming at hundred miles a hour down the road.
Better to be alive and able to ride another day! then being kill knowing you where in the right with regards to traffic rules.
The last thing set a example while riding your bike here!  Like don't riding down the bloody foot path would you do it in your country and No your not Vietnamese your a visitor to this country so ride like you would in your country be smart not another dead foreigner killed on VN roads and just remember your family will be lucky to get 100 USD if someone cleans you up! that want even cover expenses to get your dead body home.   
In regard to the cop they are like all cop in the world the need to fine people to make there keep and its easier to pull someone over for a minor thing and make money than tackle the big things like trucks bus and sprinter mini bus  flying down the road and mobile phones

safetywa wrote:

In regard to the cop they are like all cop in the world the need to fine people to make there keep and its easier to pull someone over for a minor thing and make money than tackle the big things like trucks bus and sprinter mini bus  flying down the road and mobile phones

Don't worry about the cops and busses.  I have been on busses where the driver doesn't even stop for the cops.  He just slows down enough for his assistant to jump down with the pre-filled envelope, deliver it, and jump back on.  No violation; just part of the cost of doing business.

It's always nice to hear opinions of how foreigners tackle the issue of local motobikers trying to mow them down, no less, ... on a sidewalk ... when bikers should really be driving where most normal bikers in the world ride ... on the streets and roads.

I personally take the approach that if my safety is involved and at risk by simply and normally walking down the sidewalk as some idiot chooses to avoid a red-signal and jump onto the sidewalk as he speeds past, he is operating outside the norm and probably even outside of VN road regulations.

Call it 'local behavior', 'local insensitivity', 'newfound cleverness', whatever, but it is a dangerous practice and we know the cops won't do anything or much about it. I don't recall any Vietnamese driving guide encouraging sidewalk bike-speeding, does anyone ?

So, effectively, it's down to the pedestrian to protect himself at all times and IF it means and needs a defensive action, and/or even an offensive action to avoid injury, so be it. Others, pedestrians and riders alike, will hopefully see the corrective action and realize that it is the safe way to proceed. If foreigners, or for that matter, VNese too, simply choose to accept such unsafe bike practices or pussy-foot their way welcomingly into a doorway for protection, that dangerous practice will simply continue.

When we could have been part of the solution, we've become part of a growing problem, and the locals will be happy to oblige without any resistance ...

I must compliment the authorities however on one recent activity that I have seen more & more in HCMC ... and that is, to install metal cross-bars, about a foot off the ground and bolted down, at both ends of some 'tourist area' sidewalks to minimize the temptation of idiots hopping onto the sidewalks to avoid lining up at a signal. A few thousand more of these barriers, and sidewalk safety will improve ...

If some idiot is driving on the sidewalk, I do my best...'i wasn't even looking at you" look

if they persist, i look the other way (if I AM IN their way) AND WAIT IT Out.

I am not moving because you are an ass.

Much BEEPING LATER, I MAY TURN AROUND...Oh..i AM ON THE SIDEWALK AND i AM IN YOUR MOTORBIKES WAY? Sucks to be you. tURN BACK AROUND AND POINT AT SOMEYTHING distant again until they put their bike back on the street.

So...somethings, I will just not put up with...like disregard for pedestrians.

Exactly the right attitude, Zepo!

Unfortunately, there is no multi-"Like" button on this site ... but you nailed it with the right approach.

A light body-check or elbow or cuff upside the back of the helmet often does the trick as well ...

Because nobody has the b**ls to do anything about the problem, is why the problem is getting worse.

There is a big difference between Zeppo's stand your ground while pretending you don't see them and this. 

BuddyM wrote:

A light body-check or elbow or cuff upside the back of the helmet often does the trick as well ...

In particular your suggestion to move the driver's handlebars has a high potential to hurt innocent third parties.

THIGV wrote:

There is a big difference between Zeppo's stand your ground while pretending you don't see them and this. 

BuddyM wrote:

A light body-check or elbow or cuff upside the back of the helmet often does the trick as well ...

In particular your suggestion to move the driver's handlebars has a high potential to hurt innocent third parties.

A bit like the difference between Assertion and Aggression.   Arrogance.   

See a lot of that here...     

Unfortunately, there is still a fairly high number of effeminate males who seem content with "doing nothing and seeing if bad behavior just improves naturally" ... A whimpered verbal warning will generate no useful results given the noise level around.  I guess most folks passively accept bad behavior and then wonder why innocent 3rd parties (ie. pedestrians actually entitled to walk on sidewalks!) do indeed get hurt by mindless bikers ...

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

For general reference, at least according to the VN Police that I know, Viet Nam has a number of Gangs that make the "Crips" and the "Bloods" look like kindergarten sand box fighters. You better hope that you aren't using these stupid "dissing" ideas against one of them or you can get seriously hurt.

It doesn't matter if you were in the right. If the Police show up, you are the one likely to wind up in jail.

As Career Military, I've heard this lecture repeatedly. But, I also had a JAG Officer who could bail me out of jail if needed. Here, you are pretty much on your own unless your family has major influence in Washington D.C.

You are not Colonial Gods. You are guests here. Don't do stupid stuff.

"You are not Colonial Gods. You are guests here. Don't do stupid stuff."

..I guess..?    The silent majority agree.

But then, Gandhi championed passive aggression.   

..and ended up a Martyr for his cause...     

BuddyM wrote:

...effeminate males who seem content with "doing nothing and seeing if bad behavior just improves naturally" . ... If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

I guess that makes me an effeminate male    because I don't confront Vietnamese citizens doing their thing.

That's fine, you go ahead and be a sidewalk vigilante. I'll wait for the video on Facebook.

It seems puzzling that some folks seem to condone the actions of reckless drivers whizzing by on pedestrian-intended sidewalks as well as mentioning (presumably) VN-supported "number of gangs" in the same breath and scope ... Perhaps these same gangs could be encouraged & incentivized to fix the "sidewalk" issue assuming (and you are probably right) that they are so effective. Call it a "Community Watch" program ... 

So, if you were a "guest" in a local VN household and you were invited over for dinner, and the patriarch or matriarch slapped or recklessly beat their child in front of you, would you simply sit by, or watch, or perhaps even laugh at the parents' behavior, or would you "man up" and have a word or measured (physical) response to the deed ?

Grow some b**ls, Guys, regardless of whether you are a "guest" or you are the "host" ...
Good behavior is universal ...

Because of the horrendous paperwork involved and how angry the Police get when having to do that paperwork, you are very unlikely to get killed for your attitude here in Viet Nam.

But your assuming a God like power to force the citizens of this country to obey your desires may well get you seriously injured.

The issue is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue is that you may get the wrong person angry with you and receive a serious beating. Especially with your God like attitude, you will also likely find the local Police very unfriendly and unhelpful.

BuddyM wrote:

It seems puzzling that some folks seem to condone the actions of reckless drivers whizzing by on pedestrian-intended sidewalks as well as mentioning (presumably) VN-supported "number of gangs" in the same breath and scope ... Perhaps these same gangs could be encouraged & incentivized to fix the "sidewalk" issue assuming (and you are probably right) that they are so effective. Call it a "Community Watch" program ... 

I'm not condoning anything. The point is that having arrogant foreigners attempt to  force the Vietnamese to do things the foreigner way is a horrible idea.

As a Vietnamese speaking US Military Advisor during the war, I actually had some authority. But, I was successful because I'd worked hard to develop a working partnership with my Vietnamese counterparts, was eager to learn from my Vietnamese counterparts as well as help them work to get things done through the American military system. My job was to help my Vietnamese counterparts not to give them orders.

Viet Nam belongs to the Vietnamese people, not us foreigners.

"Viet Nam belongs to the Vietnamese people, not us foreigners"

Give it up Sam.  (some) Arrogance & Ignorance is invincible...

Bazza139 wrote:

"Viet Nam belongs to the Vietnamese people, not us foreigners"

Give it up Sam.  (some) Arrogance & Ignorance is invincible...

Right

"Viet Nam belongs to the Vietnamese people, not us foreigners."

That's fine ... many of us are are invited here to help and offer advice on how to improve some aspects of VN life and (their) potential income, for example, in tourism. Not that many residing foreigners probably care much (nor do most nationals, probably!), but the statistics showing the 'return rate' of first time tourists to VN is, sadly, VERY low by most reports. 80-85% low! The lowest in the SE Asian region, actually. So, for every 100 foreigners who visit VN first time, 15-20 choose never to come back. These are not my statistics, these are the Govt's and from most travel specialists.

Safety and the road system are two of the biggest issues and 'impression points' to tourists. If you believe and condone bike-riding up onto sidewalks where locals and tourists walk, as is their right to walk on sidewalks, feel free to believe that such idiotic actions are helpful to the future of the country that YOU live in.

I suppose if a foreign resident started sidewalk-riding inches away from old ladies and school kids, you would continue to support that action, as you do now when locals do it, for whatever reason you feel is right. And that's OK - it's your opinion. I don't - and I state so and try to do something to prevent it from happening or from harming me or others (ie. the VN people, etc.).

But perhaps you own selfishness prevents you from doing things that others see as dangerous practices ... That's OK, it's everyone right to have an opinion on something - even in VN.