Shot Down in Flames by Italian Consulate in Philadelphia

Perhaps this link about visa denials could be of use?

http://www.esteri.it/mae/en/ministero/s … visto.html

Romaniac
Expat.com Experts Team

Thank you, but we never assumed we had a "right" to an Elective Residency Visa. We did everything that was required of us. We provided the proper documentation. Everything we'd researched suggested a top end income of less than $20,000 US per person. We have three times that much ($60K US as I stated). However the bureaucrat took our $60K and multiplied it by two stating we needed to make $120K US in order to live in Vicenza, Italy (not a "high cost" area, by the way). I guess we don't move in affluent circles but I don't know many people who make $120K on pensions annually.

I gave the link as it mentions that "denials must be justified" and the appeal process.  I was not implying that you believed you had a "right" to visa   The Italian government wrote that, not me

I have read that the financial requirement can be arbitrary, depending on consulate applied at and your particular portfolio.

What can I say? It might be worth consulting an Italian immigration attorney to explore this further.

Romaniac

If you are not successful in challenging the denial (you defininitely exceed the official minimum income for a couple according to the various italian official websites), and are very serious about getting to Italy, you could get residency in another (small) non EU country, one enjoyable to live in for a bit and easy to establish residence in,  and then apply from there, as you must apply from your country/city of residency. I, a US citizen, am a resident of one such country, which even has an expedited three week residency application for an additional fee of $200. Recently I applied for the italian elective residence from here  as I am retiring, and got it in less than a week from the Italian embassy. It was not the reason I moved here a few years ago, but was the reason I did not apply from New York after reading about how difficult and time consuming it is to get elective residency from any US-based Italian consulate.

Thank you. We're considering floating in on a raft so we meet national income standards.

So what is this magical land you speak of that offers expedited residency visas? Somalia?

Georgia, and Tbilisi is a wonderful,beautiful and extremely safe city with food almost as good as Italy.

The Italian consulates are given very wide latitude and the income amounts are not applied evenly across the consultates.  You can hire an attorney to help you to appeal the decision.

there are other roads to get a residence ship in italy, you probably tried the most conspicuous , which usually is the hardest, you may come to italy on a tourist visa and carry on your stay by applying for extensions under a different status and eventually you may get what you arte seeking, because if you take the matter from inside the country, it will be easier than from a bureaucratic mission

First, Americans do not need a tourist visa and will not be issued one as a tourist.  Second, could you specify, for those that are required to have a tourist visa, how, and under what conditions, it can be extended?  A visa doesn't not gain one legal residency, it only allows one to enter the country legally.

of course you dont need a tourist visa, maybe just a stamp in your passport...I spoke generally about the visa matter, however a tourist visa for those people who are required to have, it is a full permit to travel freely in the shengen area, the way you can extended is by changing the status of a stay, example, from tourist to student, for medical reason even business etc, but I cannot give you precise details about it, in your case, you have advantages, if you want to move to italy really bad, try every means, come to the country and after you got in you will find a way to stay, because with that kind of retirement you got, you will live here as a respected lord without questions, got it?

As to the above replies, it is not true that it is easy to stay in the Schengen zone more than 90 days out of every 180 legally, and you risk not only a fine but being barred from coming to the EU for years if you overstay and they catch you at the airport while leaving. As a new retiree who has previously lived in Italy I have been trying for years to get back for a longer stays in the EU...only now with Social Security and some investment income have I been able to get the elective residency visa. I still recommend Tbilisi for a few months, as it is quite like Rome (and no, Putin is not coming back),  but there are other countries as well where you can live comfortably and get residency and apply for the Italian residence visa more easily than in the US consulates. Changing from a tourst stay to a medical or student one is not easy at all for non-EU citizens.

sure about shengen, one can get thoroughly  informed in internet,
but I understood your interest is about italy, that is where you should apply for a national sejour permit

about Tbilsi, with its rusted culture and due to its geopolitical status, once you are inside, you may feel stuck to go out

I guess that government official is just extorting the bribe. This is somewhat of a hobby among bureaucrats.

Simpson01 wrote:

First, Americans do not need a tourist visa and will not be issued one as a tourist.  Second, could you specify, for those that are required to have a tourist visa, how, and under what conditions, it can be extended?  A visa doesn't not gain one legal residency, it only allows one to enter the country legally.

First of all, this notion of entering Italy on a tourist visa and either extending the visa or changing status for the OP's situation is entirely not possible under law.

A tourist visa cannot be extended, except in cases where there is a proven inability to leave (illness, etc...).  Other long-stay categories of visas must be applied for at diplomatic missions outside the country.

Your statement that a visa does not gain one legal residency is also incorrect.  Italy has an "Elective Residence" visa (which the OP already has applied for), which obviously implies gaining residence in Italy.

Let's please avoid spreading misinformation here

Romaniac

EXACTLY. My wife and I don't need to play fast and loose with Italy's immigration laws and put ourselves in a worse situation than we are already in (referenced in my original post). This is why we went through the trouble and toil of trying to do this legally. And please, please, PLEASE, people: Read my entire post before blurting out your standard canned answers to our difficulties. See that we spent nine years planning all this. The only reason the plan got ruined is because of one lazy, capricious, stupid employee at the Italian Consulate in Philadelphia. We suspect she had a bad holiday in Ferragosto and decided to take out her pouty frustration on us on 15 August because she had to *sigh* go back to pretending to work. Anyone with an effing brain knows that having retirement income of $60K between two people is more than adequate to live in Vicenza and most parts of Italy! Apparently some consular employees decide arbitrarily to impose whatever figure they decide on any given day.

EXACTLY. THANK YOU, Romaniac! My wife and I don't need to play fast and loose with Italy's immigration laws and put ourselves in a worse situation than we are already in (referenced in my original post). This is why we went through the trouble and toil of trying to do this legally. And please, please, PLEASE, people: Read my entire post before blurting out your standard canned answers to our difficulties. See that we spent nine years planning all this. The only reason the plan got ruined is because of one lazy, capricious, stupid employee at the Italian Consulate in Philadelphia. We suspect she had a bad holiday in Ferragosto and decided to take out her pouty frustration on us on 15 August because she had to *sigh* go back to pretending to work. Anyone with an effing brain knows that having retirement income of $60K between two people is more than adequate to live in Vicenza and most parts of Italy! Apparently some consular employees decide arbitrarily to impose whatever figure they decide on any given day.

Thanks for the suggestion regarding moving to Bulgaria, but there are specific reasons we wish to live in Italy. I speak the language; I lived in Italy for eight years while I was stationed there with the Navy; my wife is a classics scholar who spent more than two decades teaching Latin 1 through 5 and teaching about Roman and Italian culture; I am very familiar with Italy; we have friends who live there. This is not about randomly moving to some other country besides the United States. We are stupid enough to actually try to work within Italian law and put our trust in lazy Italian bureaucrats who want to be paid for doing nothing, unfortunately. I suppose we will eventually affirm Einstein's definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. We are getting angry and bitter in the meantime, a situation exacerbated by the fact that it has already cost us thousands of dollars to retool our retirement plans after XXX, Employee of the Year for the Italian Consulate in Philadelphia, pissed all over our dreams.

Editorneal, you are surely aware that defamation is considered as a crime ? So please avoid defaming anyone on a public forum, it might lead you to serious legal issues.

Thanks

Right. Sorry, but incompetence and failure to perform the simplest functions of a simple task infuriate me.

I am not aware what happened inside the Italian consulate in Philadelphia when you applied for exclusive residence ship, however I can imagine your frustration for receiving a denial under absurd expectations, unfortunately the foreign dpt  bureaucracy is depending on the politics, which in italy is always on a state of uncertainty, the foreign dpt minister is almost a symbolic figure in the diplomatic scene, as his name is never mentioned in the news, so the foreign dpt business goes on without a precise directive which may take political decision,  thus it is let to strict bureaucratic rules  the order of the consular administration.

Can you try to apply at different consulate?

Grazie georgy_it. That is a fair summary description of what happened. It would certainly be preferable if some actual table of income requirements would be imposed that would prohibit bureaucrats from inventing their own capricious requirements.

Only if I moved to another state and established residency there. This whole sorry business has already cost me thousands of dollars more than I would have spent had our Elective Residency Visas been approved and we're not exactly thrilled with the idea of gambling on a tactic that will likely backfire. We've already played by the effing rules and been treated badly; we're not quite up to trying to fool the system with gambits that will probably fail and just cost money.

Are you not able to retain an attorney and formally appeal?  I think that's the most logical and appropriate course of action; if you intend not to renounce your plans.  If they can show on your behalf that the denial was arbitrary and capricious, it might make a good case for you.

Romaniac

Romaniac, thank you. At this point due to all the expenses we've been hit with due to having to move back into a home we had intended to sell we're in somewhat of a financial bind. What we are considering is to make another application for the ER visa at a time not so close to Ferragosta (our paperwork arrived at the Philadelphia Consulate on 23 July, and nothing was done on it until 15 August.) And pray we get a consular employee with a heart, a brain and some slight gifts of logic. THEN if we wind up being denied again, we will pursue the legal route. That seems pretty sketchy based on what we've read online, but if we have to, we will. Just for the record, I admit my anger and frustration are spilling onto my posts here right now - somewhat justifiably, I believe - but we were the souls of kindness and diplomacy and logic when we were actually working with the Consulate. That may have been our downfall, actually.

just one last idea...what about buying a propriety here and move in, lots of foreigners do so.
If you may...

georgy_it wrote:

just one last idea...what about buying a propriety here and move in, lots of foreigners do so.
If you may...

That's fine for an EU citizen, not at all legal for a NON-EU citizen (who requires a long term visa) however.

editorneal wrote:

I admit my anger and frustration are spilling onto my posts here right now - somewhat justifiably, I believe - but we were the souls of kindness and diplomacy and logic when we were actually working with the Consulate. That may have been our downfall, actually.

Understandable, however please remember in particular Julien's comments about defamation regarding the consulate employee.  You don't want to possibly worsen your situation, out of anger and frustration.

Romaniac

I give up...

georgy_it wrote:

I give up...

Sorry, don't take it personally...I wasn't trying to discourage you from the conversation.  However, it's important that we suggest or offer not only practical, but maybe more importantly, only legal solutions here

Romaniac

Romaniac, I'd like to thank you so much for all your sane and measured responses on this situation. While it'd be fun to think we could just show up in Vicenza with our 90-day passport visas and merrily make our way by staying in Italy and doing whatever we'd like, I know that isn't possible. As I stated, we've put almost 10 years into planning this move toward retiring in Italy and did everything correctly.  We just got sabotaged by a lazy consular employee who didn't feel like bothering with our case. We know that in order to do this we need to have an Elective Residency Visa. I don't believe every employee at the Philadelphia Consulate is inherently evil or lazy. We just were unlucky. I wish to God that Italy would adopt some hard and fast standards with regard to income requirements for cost of living because the official tables of income say one thing and the consular employees just say what they want. I've heard of individuals who made $20-$25K in annual income off work or pensions being approved for long-stay visas. Then you hear the horror stories about consular employees who demand exorbitant annual incomes. I've heard this is the case regularly at the Miami and San Francisco Italian Consulates, but we were lulled into a false sense of security about Philadelphia because we had not heard of problems there.

may I suggest you to make some exhaustive research in google and you will find there an universe of information regarding the issue, you may even come up with some ideas you didnt think before, if you are clear from criminal records, you have a good stable financial support, it should be possible for you to reside in italy, the foreign community here is very large and believe me I dont believe they all are here by a legal status, however, eventually they get the resident ship and get integrated  in the italian society. I dont know your background to make my mind about what you expect from moving to italy, if you have roots you want to join or for cultural sensitivity, however I can assure you that things here are achieved very differently than what the consular service may offer you, I can tell you from experience, that is why I would look in the web for casuistry and experiences from US citizens who made it, it seems that this forum is not able to supply you of the satisfactory answers you need.

Thank you. I'm actually fairly well-versed when it comes to living in Italy and comfortable in that regard. I speak the language, have friends in the area I wish to move to, and have no cultural problems with integration. I'm just having problems getting over the hump where establishing workable legal residency (for long-term stay) is concerned. We don't want to "hide out" in Italy and be unable to travel beyond the borders or wind up losing all our belongings and our residence because we cut corners just in order to live here. As I've stated, this plan has been in the works for a long time; it's not just some spur of the moment wild idea we came up with. We're just stuck as far as the consulate has made it financially impossible to come up with what one individual has decided is a workable annual income is concerned. We're not going to be able to satisfy this $140,000 per year requirement and having $60,000 per year income ought to be adequate. We are just going to have to try again and hope for the best and that we get someone sane, or not angry, or not anti-American or not upset her Ferragosto wasn't all she expected it to be next time. Roll of the dice.

Just wondering -

Do the consulates track your application/meeting, so that applying at another one would be a problem ('Hey you already applied at Philly and were rejected')?

Or return to the Philadelphia office in hopes of finding a more reasonable person?

Read on another ex-pat forum from someone who lives in Italy, 'Italy has many laws, almost all of which are enforced sporadically if at all'.  The person related that they brought a car from England and never registered it in Italy - 'we've been here for 5 years and live across the street from the police station, but have never had a question'.

Long answer short: You have to apply to the consulate that serves the state you reside in. For me, that's Philadelpia even though the Italian Embassy in Washington DC is hundreds of miles closer to where I live in Virginia. Yes, I know that ONCE I manage to reside LEGALLY in Italy that anything goes ... I lived there for eight years before under different circumstances. It's getting INTO the GD country as a retired person living on pensions that are more generous than those that Italian citizens get that is effing things up. I'm just going to try applying to Philly again and hope to find an intelligent life form this time. Thanks for the suggestions, however!

We are not going to give up trying at least once more for the Elective Residency Visa with the hope things go better this time. However, I did find this link which may ... MAY explain some of the reasoning for demanding that applicants (supplicants?) for the ER Visa be obscenely wealthy:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ceciliarodr … 9e7a757c26