Here We Go AGAIN!

So do I and agree it is so ironic that Indonesia is singled out when so many other countries still maintain corporal punishment . Maybe the answer is not to make it public knowledge and hide it away.

"Maybe the answer is not to make it public knowledge and hide it away."

I understand your point of view, but if we did that, matters would be worse as we'd legitimately be accused of trying to "cover up." 

I look at this way...let them level all the criticism they want.  They don't live here (thank God), so in the end, why should we really care?  "They" have NO idea how much better it is here in Indonesia to raise kids and conduct our lives in a manner which most often far exceeds our opportunities and the safety provided by our countries of origin.

Maybe that's the real secret we should be careful to hide?

To Hades with politics.

I have 2 kids and I want them to grow up in a place as free from these murdering drug dealers as possible.
I told my niece about the food stands that pop up at 5pm in Ramadam, and she told me about the drug dealers she'd seen selling death in Doncaster.
They say execution doesn't solve the problem but that lot won't do it again after tomorrow.

Hiduplah Indonesia Raya.

It was a tongue in cheek comment to prove exactly your points.

"To Hades with politics."

I don't view this as a political issue...not by a long stretch.  Rather I view this as an important issue relevant to the world's perception and understanding of Indonesia.

As expats, we have a very important role, as well as a duty, to assure as best we can that those perceptions are based on reason, facts and respect as opposed to accepting the efforts by foreign entities to impose their will upon Indonesia.

That's not politics...no.  Rather, that is taking responsibility to support the will and desires of the Indonesian people in the land we now call home.

People make these things political by trying to force their will upon others, but they do so with no understanding of local cultural norms.
The UK is infested with dealers to the point where no one is shocked by them, and that country suffers all the crime and misery these pigs bring as they murder their way to profits.
Indonesia has a far lesser problem, and I like it that way.

To hell with the killers' human rights, I think of my kids' human right to live free from scumbag dealers.

Someone once asked me if I would alert the authorities to a drug pusher trying to bring filth into Indonesia, even though I knew that person would likely get killed.
Yes, I would.
My kids and my beautiful adopted country are far more important than some nasty little drug scumbag.

"To hell with the killers' human rights, I think of my kids' human right to live free from scumbag dealers."   

And thankfully the vast number of Indonesians feel exactly the same way.

Ubudian wrote:

And thankfully the vast number of Indonesians feel exactly the same way.

I believe that's the case, certainly amongst everyone I know. I have yet to meet anyone who disagrees with Indonesia's official position.
I disagree to a level in that the Bali nine is now the Bali seven, not the Bali none, an error in my view.
The moment you let these people take an inch, they infest a place and destroy it.

Whilst this thread is very much an opinion thing, it does hold validity as an expat issue in so much as it will serve as a warning to readers as to how seriously drug offenders are treated here.
Selling small quantities of low quality weed will see a slap on the wrist in the UK, but gets you 5 to 7 years in the slammer here.

Large quantities or manufacturing such as crystal meth means your freedom is commonly lost for life, or your life will be terminated.

These anti drug laws remain very popular here and aren't likely to change any time soon.
The myth about your embassy helping you doesn't hold water either. All they can do is monitor, request or appeal, but they are have little actual power other than ensuring you're treated reasonably until the authorities put you in front of a firing squad.
Do yourself a favour, don't sell drugs here.

http://indonesiaexpat.biz/topreads/indo … xecutions/

I've only just seen this, but it seems to look as if this pathetic rag is speaking for expats in general.
Not in my name lads. I have two kids who I want to grow up free of the dealers and their rubbish so in reply to the picture at the top of the link...

Pak Joko, shoot the lot of them.

I'm with you, Fred!

That mag is supposed to be an expat thing, but I hope people don't read it and assume all expats think that way. Between their wildly strange stories about immigration, this issue and a couple of other pieces of vomit they've printed of late, I just want to make it very clear I have zero support for the stuff they've printed.
That and the illegal drugs on their old FB page just makes me hope they stop publishing quickly.

I have never ever heard of a person who wakes up in the morning saying: "Today I will use drugs, as my feelings tells me so".

Drugs use is triggered by socio-economic factors, mismanagement, severe child neglect and poor parenting, combined with attachment issues during early childhood. 

Btw, the Bali 9 did not bring the drugs into Indonesia, They purchased it here and were bringing it to Aussie. The Aussie police admit later to made an error to tip the Indonesian law enforcement. All too late now.

To summarize, I agree that every country or state has the right to uphold their own laws, and I am also against drugs, but it is a bit odd to make executing as a priority. Indonesia has many other problems to solve. 

Check the pic which one could have more priority. Heartbreaking morning ritual...
http://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aNKwpW4_700b.jpg

The death penalty here is a show of strength to the masses to help protect us all from the source of drugs and damage it does which is all true. The focus the government has given towards cleaning up society's issues such as drugs, prostitution, alcohol abuse has highlighted the problem more than solving it or removing it. It has however made sure that it seen to be doing the right thing.
We have all day to argue over the salient points of better education and parent advice and what we think the government should do to solve it's problems. But while it's shooting those peddlers of drugs and hopefully soon other low lifes and banning Pokemon whilst raising the price of cigarettes I am quite happy not to really pass comment and consider things are improving.

“The focus the government has given towards cleaning up society's issues such as drugs, prostitution, alcohol abuse has highlighted the problem more than solving it or removing it.”

So, was it a bad idea to clean up Kalijodo?  And, isn't the first step towards resolving a problem, to recognize and highlight it?

@fadelheim

“…but it is a bit odd to make executing as a priority. Indonesia has many other problems to solve.”

Had you been living in Indonesia for the past 18 years I doubt you'd be so unaware of just how serious the drug problem has become here.  And that being said, I for one would like to hear what you would consider as more important issues for Indonesia to solve. 

SE Asian countries which haven't dealt with this issue head on in the past are now in the position of The Philippines.  We don't want that extreme here either.

Roy, the interesting thing about Kalijodo is that fact that the number of prostitutes in West Jakarta has since increased as there are now more girls on the streets. So in one way, it has cleared a problem, but shifted the issue elsewhere. So the potentially the girls there now could face more dangers as their business is more thank likely to take place in a car rather than some dark room with angry men guarding doors.
As the governor said, Prostitution will never go away but rather needs to be controlled.

From everything I've read about Kalijodo, the success was a mixed bag.  While what you say about some prostitutes simply moving on is true, it's also true that many ended up returning to their home villages.  Also, the tear down of the entire slum, and building new housing must have surely improved the standard of living for those past residents of Kalidjodo...no, yes?

I would like to think so yes, but I would guess a lot of small business men and warungs went out of business. So again the success would depend on how you see it. Currently it is just a big empty space.

Hopefully as the city keeps focusing on prostitution things will change, the target is always the seller not the buyer. That needs to change.

Of course we are a bit OT here, prostitution being a far less serious matter than drug dealers.  So, when it comes to drug dealers, obviously once they've been welcomed by the firing squad, there is no chance of them showing up somewhere else.  In other words, it could be called the “ultimate” solution, as least for those dealers.  And, it's cost effective. 

I wonder, how many of those foreign countries that might jump, yell and scream at us whenever we put one of their nationals in front of the firing squad for drug smuggling would be willing to pay Indonesia a half million dollars a year, for each year we incarcerate them instead of killing them?  Half of that money could go towards advancement in drug education and treatment for existing addicts. 

What do you think of the chances for that?      Slim to none, IMHO.

“The key is not to prioritize what's on the schedule, but to schedule your priorities.”
– Steven Covey

Lots of good, constructive discussion going on here, thanks for the interesting thoughts from all.

I grew up through the 60s and 70s, some say we who experienced those decades still haven't grown up. But during that time, I saw it all. Drugs, alcohol, wheelers, dealers, you name it. More than a few of my friends and acquaintances from that time paid the biggest price of all, and all that's left of them are distant memories.

Things have changed in a sense, the drugs are different, more chemical and more deadly. The mobs dealing them are more sophisticated, there's more of them and things are much meaner, mainly because of the very high money stakes that are involved.

Of course, this factor has only raised the level of interest from many official sources, some of whom are deeply involved in the graft and who facilitate the evil trade, with the occasional token scalp being taken to keep the perception up that they're in control. Of course they are.

But one thing hasn't changed, the users, many more than before (numerically rather than proportionately) who are hopelessly addicted, have problems that cannot be properly dealt with by the penal system. The dealers, and some who make and/or enforce the penalties, have no real interest in helping the addicts. Their game is to skim off the distribution. Stop that and you can make progress in fixing the real problem: addiction and other related weaknesses in humanity.

I submit that no country on earth has totally stamped out the drug trade by jailing or executing offenders, most of whom are caught are mules, way down the bottom rungs of the distribution ladder. The same goes for prostitution.  Complete waste of time. Assign an area for them to trade and manage that effectively. In case those who might be offended should have to face the reality that some men, and some women, use prostitutes, they needn't bother to frequent those areas.

Let me put in my 2 cents worth:

If the death penalty was such an effective deterrent, why is it that offences keep being prosecuted?

How is it, where drug dealing has been taken away from the mob (e.g. public funding and healthcare support for injection clinics, decriminalising marijuana, etc.) levels of crime from desperadoes stealing TV's, jewelry and the like and death from overdose of potent drugs like heroin, have plummeted?

What represents a better application of public fuhding, chasing small time dealers, users and addicts, all to present a facade of effectiveness, or breaking down, through proven effective counter incentive strategies, the massive cartels who manufacture and distribute the stuff?

How many of your children, your children's friends, acquaintances or relatives have been solicited by a drug dealer? I'll wager very few of them, if any.

I'm sure, if my assumption is correct, it's because your family environment has provided them with an appreciation of good in society, and that reflects in the company they choose to keep and the behaviour they exhibit when they're beyond your gaze.

Hopefully, their positive upbringing will also equip them with the strength to say no when temptation comes their way. Sadly, this isn't what usually happens when children with a less fortunate upbringing are confronted with the same evil. These individuals are the targets of the mob.

The facts are there for all to see and marvel at. It's just that, in some regimes, the facts are disguised by pointing towards other, less effective strategies that are less likely to have the effect that good people hope for. But they make good headlines.

One of the best comments I have seen in ages...
Thx, Geoff.

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– Buckminster Fuller

@Geoffwhere

Taken from a purely western point of view, your last post makes a lot of sense.  And, given how recent an arrival you are to Indonesia, that your opinion would come from your westernized viewpoint is 100% understandable.

However, the fallacy in your argument is that you are mistakenly assuming that the drug “problem” is the same world wide.  It isn't.  Moreover, even within the various Provinces of Indonesia, the drug problem isn't the same, Province to Province. 

You write,

“How many of your children, your children's friends, acquaintances or relatives have been solicited by a drug dealer? I'll wager very few of them, if any.”

If you took that wager, you would loose.  Here in Bali I know several expatriate families whose kids have been solicited at the top international schools, and I know local families whose kids have been solicited at local schools.  I know kids of a few expatriate families who have been arrested for possession…and the same goes for local kids.  I also know of two expatriate kids who died from a drug overdose, and three others who died in bike accidents while under the influence of meth.  In many places on Bali, if one knows where to go, it's quite easy to score some meth or even heroin.  Nowhere is better known for that than Kuta.

I don't know the drug scene in Jakarta, but if what I hear from various police that I'm close to here in Bali, the trafficking scene there is largely (but not exclusively) driven by local gangs as opposed to foreign traffickers.  An exception there would be “the Nigerian problem” and their contacts with local gangs from Makassar and Jakarta.   

Indonesia cannot afford to wage anywhere near the sort of drug wars that are seen in the West.  Moreover, due to the unique geography of this archipelago, it's 17,000 (give or take) islands and extensive coastlines (second largest amount of coastline in the world), even to try would be futile. 

The oft heard argument that the death penalty doesn't work because if it did work, the problem would go away is a classic red herring.  Why?  Because there is no possible way to determine how much worse the problem would be without such stiff penalties.  Who knows how many “would have been” foreign drug smugglers to Indonesia have decided to go to markets less deadly?   

The first thing any new expat here in Indonesia should come to learn, and respect, is that Indonesia is a sovereign nation.  It has every right to establish its own laws under its own constitution and principles of democracy.  The death penalty for drug smugglers here in Indonesia has the overwhelming support of Indonesians.  The President has no choice but to fulfill the responsibilities of his office as directed by the will of the people.  It is the President's obligation to refuse to yield to outside pressure, pressure which does not conform to the citizens of Indonesia.

Welcome to Indonesia.  Those who have made it our home for many years, tend to like it pretty much the way it is…and we react just a badly as the locals do when it comes to meddling in our affairs.

Sadly, I must agree with Roy not because I want to disagree with Geoffwhere because the arguments and views put forward are very valid, but because the problem really is one or two people away from you. The way that society runs and how people interact, you only need to ask someone who knows a few others then you can get what you want. This is not from direct experience but I have been here long enough to know this is how it is done.
I live in the thick of it in Jakarta, not some fancy complex or apartment tower but surrounded by life. All walks of life are visible all day from the street head who is a neighbour to the dodgy guys that hang about the end of the road discussing something and watching every step me and my family take.
The drug situation is probably as bad as they say but it has to be quantified and there no system which does this. The support for users is limited which is sad but I am sure that communities rally round best they can. The focus is on the mules and carriers and dealers not the users. It is populist but also what the majority of Indonesians want.
Personally I don't think the death penalty is any kind of deterrent but I am in favour of it. It doesn't work to stop any crime of serious crime but the argument that without it things would  be worse makes a great deal of sense. One less dealer or trafficker is better. The prisons here are prisons. Nothing more so there is no chance of rehabilitation. The warnings are clear and obvious.
When I came here I lived with a group of westerners who knew and had weed to smoke within days of their arrival. I have no idea where it came from, nor did I ask, its not something I cared for. I had a teacher working for me who we fired for having a stash in his house. We got him out of the country not because he was to be arrested but we had heard the dealers were after him so for his sake he needed to leave. He left. He paid his way out.
I have no pity for anyone caught for dealing or using here especially if they are not from Indonesia. They reap what they sow.

"Sadly, I must agree with Roy..."

Gosh Luke...was it that hard?   

Just pulling your leg.  I know what you meant.

lukereg wrote:

They reap what they sow.

I still have my old immigration and departure card from nine years ago, and it's very clear about drugs.
It simply states,

Warning
Death penalty for drug traffickers
under Indonesian law

Nice plain red letters centred exactly as I've posted it, and no ambiguity to be had.
Add the very good publicity these killers get when they finally reach the post they get tied up to when they're shot, and it's pretty clear what can happen to fools who's greed is greater than their common sense.
I believe a chap called Darwin had a thought on that subject.

As for human rights, I firmly believe humans have to right to live free of the death and misery these drug scum killers dish out in order to make massive profits, so I have absolutely no issue when Indonesia takes out the trash.

As for some expat 'magazines' (read rubbish publications) that seem to support legalising drugs in this country and, because of their name, give the impressions expats in general support such stupidity, they really should stop printing total crap.

Roy, bit  like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

To both Roy and Fred:

"....several expatriate families whose kids have been solicited at the top international schools, and I know local families whose kids have been solicited at local schools.  I know kids of a few expatriate families who have been arrested for possession…and the same goes for local kids.  I also know of two expatriate kids who died from a drug overdose, and three others who died in bike accidents while under the influence of meth."

First up, this is no different from anywhere else. To think, or even suggest that it's any worse here than, say, Sydney or San Francisco, is delusional.

It begs the question, if it's so widespread, why aren't the police on to it? You know, more arrests means more convictions, more penalties, more rehabilitation, or any of the other words ending in ion.

Further on this point, if the police are telling you it's a problem so big, that's surely a signal there's something going wrong. Like, they know how bad it is, but don't seem able to fix it. Or don't want to.

Now, I'm sure all the police you know aren't like that. Just ask Frank Serpico about police extra curricular activities.

Secondly, I'm not barracking for repeal of the death penalty. Like you, I uphold Indonesia's right as a sovereign nation to do whatever it likes, within reason and the Geneva Convention.

Just show me the proof that it's a deterrent to drug addiction or trafficking. Now, there's a challenge.

lukereg wrote:

Roy, bit  like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

No, nothing like that at all.

Geoffwhere wrote:

To both Roy and Fred:

Just show me the proof that it's a deterrent to drug addiction or trafficking. Now, there's a challenge.

You assume I would want to.
Apart from the obvious return of asking you to prove it doesn't, I don't care either way.
I see the firing squad as making absolutely sure they don't repeat offend.

As of this moment in time, no executed drug dealer has committed further offences after their execution.

Yes Fred, point taken. They'll never offend again, not like the hundreds of thousands who do so every day and get away with it.

Luke, I love Monty Python!  That one is a classic!

@Geoffwhere

A good debate is fine, and often very worthwhile, but it has to be honest.

My discussion about my personal knowledge of kids and drugs here in Indonesia had nothing to do with illustrating how the drug situation here is different, rather, it had to do with your challenge that none of us (in your mind) have had or witnessed first hand experiences here. 

So this comment quoted below is entirely disingenuous:

“First up, this is no different from anywhere else. To think, or even suggest that it's any worse here than, say, Sydney or San Francisco, is delusional.”

Now you ask,

“It begs the question, if it's so widespread, why aren't the police on to it?”

Why do you think they aren't?  Do you get a copy of every local paper printed each day across Indonesia (papers which aren't on line)?  There are plenty of drug related arrests each and every day, and many of them don't even make it to the papers as the police understand that what a kid might need is not to be arrested, but to get some help.

And this…

“Now, I'm sure all the police you know aren!t like that. Just ask Frank Serpico about police extra curricular activities.”

Frank Serpico?  What on earth does Frank Serpico have to do with the drug problem, or the manner in which the Indonesian police conduct themselves?  Where are you headed here with your comments?

And finally,

“Just show me the proof that it's a deterrent to drug addiction or trafficking. Now, there's a challenge.”

This is true.  It can neither be proven that the death penalty for drug smuggling is, or is not a deterrent to drug trafficking…BUT, sound logic dictates that some would be smugglers have obviously decided to go elsewhere.  That's just plain common sense.

PS...Fred...that warning on your immigration card from nine years back is also a large sign at virtually every arrival point, sea and air, in Indonesia these days.

"challenge that none of us (in your mind) have had or witnessed first hand experiences here"
Not my words, nor in my mind.
Etc.
If you believe some members of the police, anywhere in the world, are not part of criminal activities, you've been drinking the Koolaid.
Frank Serpico was mentioned in illustration of that fact.
My point, from beginning to end, was prompted by the discussion about the use of the death penalty a a deterrent.
It clearly is not and this is widely upheld by most prominent and respected climatologists.
My point further raised realities about the drug trafficking business and more effective ways of reining it in, so as to really help protect the young people you rightly referred to in your examples.
The death penalty certainly stops repeat offences by those sentenced.
But it does nothing to deter the many many others who profit from its illicit and evil trade.

I look at this in a very black and white way, and I really have no care about any grey.

I come from a place infested by dealers, a place that suffers all the crime that goes with drugs, and I don't want to see that mess in Indonesia.
Simple as that - and I have not a jot of interest in any arguments about human rights for murderers - Yes, murderers.
You kill for cash and that's what you are, so hard luck if you get shot for it.

My only gripe with Indonesia is they hang about far too long before they take out the trash.

You may find some enlightenment in the link on this pages to an Executive Summary of a much more detailed report. Interesting statistics, in particular that Asia is second lowest region for drug related prison sentences.
United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime, World Drug Report 2016

@Geoffwhere

“My point, from beginning to end, was prompted by the discussion about the use of the death penalty as a deterrent.  It clearly is not and this is widely upheld by most prominent and respected climatologists.”

I've seen many of the recent studies you refer to, and most, if not all specifically relate to the death penalty not being a deterrent to murder.  Murder is very often a crime of passion, not well thought out, or planned.  Logically, the death penalty is not a deterrent against murder when it's carried out in the passion of the moment.   

Drug smuggling is obviously not a crime of passion.  Rather it requires planning, thought and with ample to time to consider, and re-consider. 

Once again, and for the third time, there is no possible way to prove, one way or the other, that the death penalty is, or isn't a deterrent to drug smugglers, as there is no possible access to the data needed to determine when a potential drug smuggler has not chosen a particular country that has the death penalty in place, and applies it in sentencing.  Obviously, drug smugglers who change their mind about dealing their wares in Indonesia because of the death penalty do not report their decision. 

In other words, there is no possible way to determine with any accuracy whether or not drug smuggling in Indonesia would go up, go down, or remain relatively the same if Indonesia were to cease applying the death penalty for drug smuggling. 

However, and specific to Indonesia, there is data which shows that drug smuggling to Indonesia increased during the four year period 2008 to 2013 when executions were suspended. 

I'm sorry, but there is no way to conclusively prove what you think is fact…that being that the death penalty is not a deterrent to drug smuggling, as very simply, there is no proof to support that claim, nor would it be possible to assemble the necessary data to support a finding.

Some facts:
18.000 Indonesians die because of drugs use each year.
200.000 Indonesians die because of smoke related diseases each year.

Newspaper:

There has also been some criticism that Widodo, popularly known as Jokowi, is also singling out foreigners to be killed. Ten of the 14 expected to be executed are foreign nationals.

“I think it's quite a clever move,” said Gunawan. “The public supports the death penalty, and he knows that if he executes he needs public support.
If he chooses foreigners, he is shielded from criticism.”
“President Widodo's era was supposed to represent a new start for human rights in Indonesia,”
“Sadly, he could preside over the highest number of executions in the country's democratic era at a time when most of the world has turned its back on this cruel practice.” said Josef Benedict, a deputy director for Southeast Asia at Amnesty International.

Why there are no Arabs on death row in Indonesia, as they often get caught at the airport Soekarno Hatta.?? Because they are sent back to their country, within 2 weeks and blacklisted for 5 years. Why? Just to ensure the pilgrimage quota, according to some officials.

Another one:
70 % of the people living in Afghanistan and the so called "Texas bible belt" (US) cannot see grey areas, as they suffer from some sort of borderline disorder.

The world is as complicated as you make it.
We live on a planet with a disturbing weather system somewhere in the universe, where we still believe in nomadic/tribal middle Eastern mythological creatures instead of trying to understand that this is all we got. We need to find a way to live together, as there is nowhere else to go. We're stuck on this beautiful planet.

No need to reply, guys.
I am out of this discussion.
Not feel comfortable where human beings like us are labeled as trash.
Enjoy your time.

If you're seriously thinking about moving to Indonesia I guess you'll just have to get used to the fact that we do in fact regard drug dealers as trash.  They sell death...so how else to regard them?