Malaysia My Second Home (MM2H)

FireRooster1 wrote:

1openmind wrote:

They'll hire low wage workers from India. With no need for kids in international schools. Besides they won't want to buy properties and invest in mm2h. Keep dreaming

Dreaming?

Before I start, I'll preface this a few simple factoids:

1. There are already more high income and Employment Pass (EP) holding expatriates living in Malaysia than there are MM2H holders.

There are 57,478 MM2H holders
There are nearly 40,000 EP1 holders (T20 income)
And another 160,000 EP2 holders

2. Most MM2H holders are actually Chinese nationals or from the Overseas Chinese community.

3. Malaysia's turned down over 90% of most recent applications.


Regarding international schools
Most of best international schools in the country are in Klang Valley, and there are far EP1 holders in Klang Valley than there are MM2H holders. As far as I can tell MM2H holders are more likely to end up in Penang... and the average T20% income over 31% higher in Klang Valley than anywhere else in the country.

The biggest International schools won't really miss retirees 57,500, most of whom aren't even living around the most prestigious schools.

Regarding condos
1. The country is trying to slow down the foreign purchasing of condos, and EP1 holders are likely to live in high-end condos leased by their employers.

2. Most of the foreigners buying up condos aren't MM2H holders. They're foreign investors from within Asia simply looking to diversify their holdings. Before COVID-19 I was going on tours of new development sites that didn't even have sales material in English. They had to fetch an English speaker to give me the tour, because the target market is the massive overseas Chinese market...

Regarding foreign investment
Malaysia created MM2H before it was a middle income nation and it needed to focus on soliciting high-tech direct foreign investment. MM2H was created back when the country really DID need the MM2H money and the international exposure from a program like it.

Like I mentioned before, Microsoft alone is investing billions of dollars directly into the Malaysian economy. Microsoft's investment alone is equal to every MM2H holder pumping $80,030 directly into the economy.

And that's just Microsoft.

And don't even get me started on the massive focus on development and investments in Iskandar Malaysia (Johor).


Regarding the political and demographic implications of MM2H
The policymakers have decided that they don't want the entire country to be overrun by Chinese money, even more than it already is.

They already had to change the residency status granted to foreign property buyers to curb a wave of immigration, then they just flat-out started denying MM2H applications after Hong Kongers started applying for MM2H en masse.

MM2H holders aren't taxed at the same rates as employment pass holders and aren't direct job creators.

Malaysia has decided that it isn't worth the risk anymore, it's that simple. But, to state that the only foreign workers are low wage workers is erroneous.

Malaysia just doesn't need most MM2H holders anymore, I'm sure it sucks to hear, but it's true.

They need job creators and anybody who has enough money to be missed can easily start a company here and give themselves an employment pass to live here.

Otherwise, they're likely to be a highly affluent person from Hong Kong or China... And they'll still have enough money to get approved.

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>1. There are already more high income and Employment Pass (EP) holding expatriates living in Malaysia than there are MM2H holders.
***And there are more Malaysians than foreigners so why have any foreigners at all? Their contribution pales in comparison to what Malaysians contribute.

>2.Most MM2H holders are actually Chinese nationals or from the Overseas Chinese community.
***Most? What's your source? According to this, mainland Chinese made up 30% in 2018. Singapore had 3%.  Hong Kong less than 3%.
https://www.mm2h.com/mm2h-statistics/

3. Malaysia's turned down over 90% of most recent applications.
***This is a canard. The head of the agent association made this unverified claim and the media picked it up and ran with it. Neither my agent or others (according to people I know) didn't experience this. One agent who specializes in South Korea said it was closer to a 56% rejection rate. And by the way, this was only for the Sep.-Dec. 2019 period. After rejection letters went out, Motac later returned all those applications submitted in 2020. In other words, they weren't even processed. Soon afterwards, most of those that were approved (but no approval letter issued due to the lockdown) were returned unprocessed. Immigration decided (unfairly) to return them so they would be resubmitted under the new terms. It was a crappy move from a heartless government.

"Malaysia" didn't decide to effectively kill the program.  The program was killed by the change in government in March 2020. There was a power struggle and Motac lost, Immigration won. Motac was focused on bringing in revenue. Immigration is focused on security. In their minds they think there is a meaningful amount of crime being committed by some who hold the mm2h visa. Where's the proof? There is none. But trying talking rationally to a xenophobic government, especially one that doesn't want to listen. And a naive one too. The assumption is that the super rich are not criminals so that's good, and they are super rich, so that's good too. Kills two birds with one stone. Except there was little crime to begin with among MM2Hers (as often noted by Andy Davison) and the super rich don't want to live in Malaysia. They're not trying to kill the program. Even they see value in it. They just don't know what the f**k they're doing.   

I won't argue that there is anti-Chinese sentiment. In fact, I agree the current government (at least as of yesterday) has been anti-foreigner since the pandemic started which coincided with their rise to power. But if that was there main goal - curtailing the Chinese - they could have easily set quotas on the number of Chinese receiving the visa, like Canada does. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if even a greater percentage comes from China because for westerners it's a clear deal breaker.

By the way, MM2Hers are not "low net worth" individuals. That implies they have little in savings/investments. They are financially comfortable and by some definitions high net worth. But few are super rich.

This argument that MM2Hers aren't needed anymore is specious. It's been a great program because expats are spending a lot more money than the typical citizen and at almost zero cost to the country. At the same time it has been supporting many small businesses such as the 250 visa agencies, and travel and real estate companies. There is such a thing called the multiplier effect. You cherry-picked one story related to foreign investment - and inflated the dollar impact - and decided mm2h expats can't help contribute to securing foreign investment anymore?  Did you see the part of the article I linked which said "foreign direct investments (FDI) plunged by 68 per cent last year, the biggest decline in Southeast Asia?  Are you suggesting the mm2h program has no value anymore when the country should be, metaphorically speaking, counting paper clips? And what about the goodwill that was built? Shouldn't Malaysia be at least a bit concerned about their image. Or does a country's image not matter in your opinion?

The powers that be made a bad decision. They may think it's a good decision but its funny how they won't explain their rationale. I'm convinced they are not a sophisticated lot. KPMG came in, did a thorough review and said the current program for retirees was good. They recommended only a few tweaks. They also recommended an RGI program for under 50 year olds. But the Cabinet made their own changes and approved only an RBI program - and without the "R" - and applied it to everyone over 35yo. Genius. With less than 1/10 of 1% of the population living in Malaysia, the government could have just let the program slowly bleed out without screwing those who already have the visa.  Instead, I think they believe the super rich are actually going to appear in droves. Don't believe me? Take a look at Sabah's program. They said they are looking for 200 applicants a year who have at least $3 million. Sabah. Not London or New York. I will be stunned if they get five. Yeah, these guys are really tuned in.

If I was making  a $10k/mo retirement I'm not sure Malaysia would be at the top of my list. However, if you watch Nomad Capitalist on youtube he is pitching Malaysia as a destination for 7/8 figure entrepreneurs frequently. He did not seem perturbed by the change. Sarawak is still a path to entry, although my preference was for Sabah. Is Borneo the new West Malaysia for types like us? BTW, my understanding is people on MM2H agree to not be politically involved, so I would be careful with any petitions.

VitoNegroni wrote:

If I was making  a $10k/mo retirement I'm not sure Malaysia would be at the top of my list. However, if you watch Nomad Capitalist on youtube he is pitching Malaysia as a destination for 7/8 figure entrepreneurs frequently. He did not seem perturbed by the change. Sarawak is still a path to entry, although my preference was for Sabah. Is Borneo the new West Malaysia for types like us? BTW, my understanding is people on MM2H agree to not be politically involved, so I would be careful with any petitions.

That guy is a promoter so of course he's not going to be critical of the changes. Did you see the comments section? Super wealthy people have not been coming to Malaysia. Why would they come now after raising the requirement by 300%-500% w/o offering any additional benefits? Not to mention the fact wealthy people usually like to move around and don't like to be constrained with requirements such as having to stay in one country at least 90 days per year. In his article at Expat Go, Andy Davison mentioned that less than 5% of the mm2h expats he's seen over ~20 years could meet the new criteria. I'm not a visa holder, btw.

Rendang Lover wrote:

That guy is a promoter so of course he's not going to be critical of the changes. Did you see the comments section? Super wealthy people have not been coming to Malaysia. Why would they come now after raising the requirement by 300%-500% w/o offering any additional benefits? Not to mention the fact wealthy people usually like to move around and don't like to be constrained with requirements such as having to stay in one country at least 90 days per year. In his article at Expat Go, Andy Davison mentioned that less than 5% of the mm2h expats he's seen over ~20 years could meet the new criteria. I'm not a visa holder, btw.

I don't disagree with you, and actually I was responding to something said earlier in the thread. I also didn't mention I disagree with much that Henderson says, but I couldn't help but wonder if it spoke to a certain population, and that these are attemps to make it the new Singapore. It certainly prices me out, making Sarawak more attractive. However, prior to this I was considering not even bothering with MM2H as long as they continue to do a 90 day entry. In the short term we have family on 2 coasts of the US to deal with. This just seals the decision. It also makes me reconsider Panama, Portugal, Beliz, Mexico, and outher parts of South America.

VitoNegroni wrote:

Rendang Lover wrote:

That guy is a promoter so of course he's not going to be critical of the changes. Did you see the comments section? Super wealthy people have not been coming to Malaysia. Why would they come now after raising the requirement by 300%-500% w/o offering any additional benefits? Not to mention the fact wealthy people usually like to move around and don't like to be constrained with requirements such as having to stay in one country at least 90 days per year. In his article at Expat Go, Andy Davison mentioned that less than 5% of the mm2h expats he's seen over ~20 years could meet the new criteria. I'm not a visa holder, btw.

I don't disagree with you, and actually I was responding to something said earlier in the thread. I also didn't mention I disagree with much that Henderson says, but I couldn't help but wonder if it spoke to a certain population, and that these are attemps to make it the new Singapore. It certainly prices me out, making Sarawak more attractive. However, prior to this I was considering not even bothering with MM2H as long as they continue to do a 90 day entry. In the short term we have family on 2 coasts of the US to deal with. This just seals the decision. It also makes me reconsider Panama, Portugal, Beliz, Mexico, and outher parts of South America.

Mexico is so appealing since it is close to me on the West Coast and the exchange rate is great but I can't get beyond the fear of the crime/drug cartels down there.  When we did a cruise a few years back to Mexico out of San Francisco, I didn't feel safe to want to venture too far away from the port areas.  And you do hear the occasional story of some American found dead down there. I felt safe in Malaysia wandering around the country with just a tour guide or bro-inlaw.  Let's hope for a revision, big time!!!!

VitoNegroni wrote:

Rendang Lover wrote:

That guy is a promoter so of course he's not going to be critical of the changes. Did you see the comments section? Super wealthy people have not been coming to Malaysia. Why would they come now after raising the requirement by 300%-500% w/o offering any additional benefits? Not to mention the fact wealthy people usually like to move around and don't like to be constrained with requirements such as having to stay in one country at least 90 days per year. In his article at Expat Go, Andy Davison mentioned that less than 5% of the mm2h expats he's seen over ~20 years could meet the new criteria. I'm not a visa holder, btw.

I don't disagree with you, and actually I was responding to something said earlier in the thread. I also didn't mention I disagree with much that Henderson says, but I couldn't help but wonder if it spoke to a certain population, and that these are attemps to make it the new Singapore. It certainly prices me out, making Sarawak more attractive. However, prior to this I was considering not even bothering with MM2H as long as they continue to do a 90 day entry. In the short term we have family on 2 coasts of the US to deal with. This just seals the decision. It also makes me reconsider Panama, Portugal, Beliz, Mexico, and outher parts of South America.

There's an article I just found that I posted on the mm2h FB page entitled:
"Frankly Speaking: Drastic changes to MM2H will drive away prospective participants"
You can google it. The last paragraph reads.."We really have to ask ourselves if we are serious about wanting foreigners to make Malaysia their second home. We simply cannot formulate policies based on whims and fancies. After all, silver-hair programmes are not unique to Malaysia."
I thought that was a good way of putting it...whims and fancies. This dovetails your comment about making Malaysia the new Singapore. There is a bit of delusion sitting at Immigration (and the former Cabinet). They have preconceived notions about expats and crime, and I think they believe or want to believe Malaysia is more special than it really is. True, it does rank high in terms of a great place to retire. But that's for the financially comfortable looking for good healthcare and a lower cost of living, not the super wealthy. I know a super wealthy Japanese couple and they fly from Tokyo to places like San Francisco and Hong Kong (where they stay at the Peninsula..natch!). They're actually very nice and down-to-earth but in the past - as hard as I tried - I could not convince them to visit Malaysia. Go figure.

The Genie is out of the bottle. How can we possibly trust MM2H again, even if they do make a U-turn and revert to the old requirements, or something close the old requirements?

I think they will adjust S-MM2H soon too, it's just a matter of time until S-MM2H will be completely overrun by current MM2H participants trying to salvage their situation (and property investments). Putrajaya will likely also apply pressure, once they realize that all potential new applicants have done their homework and apply for S-MM2H instead. 
As said in the opening, the trust has been broken and no serious retiree will commit to put 250k$ into a program that abruptly changes the rules, including those that have been participating under the previous rules. In my view, it will take years for Putrajaya to realize that they killed the golden goose before coming up with a new program. It will take even longer to restore confidence with potential applicants.

BTW: We applied for MM2H back in 2019 and so far have not heard back. The last know status was “pending committee approval”. Chances are, that we either need to re-apply from scratch, or get a conditional approval if we can meet the new financial criteria - which we could, actually.
But we are not willing to tie up this much money in exchange for nothing in return. 

We are now leaning 95% towards Thailand and plan to apply for an O-A or O-X visa early next year, once the Covid situation is turning for the better. 
Just for comparison: the Thai 5+5year O-X visa ‘only' requires a 90k$ fixed deposit, and even less with a fixed overseas income.
Before these ridiculous ‘improvements' it was a clear-cut decision to retire in Malaysia on MM2H, not anymore!

Rendang Lover wrote:

VitoNegroni wrote:

Rendang Lover wrote:

That guy is a promoter so of course he's not going to be critical of the changes. Did you see the comments section? Super wealthy people have not been coming to Malaysia. Why would they come now after raising the requirement by 300%-500% w/o offering any additional benefits? Not to mention the fact wealthy people usually like to move around and don't like to be constrained with requirements such as having to stay in one country at least 90 days per year. In his article at Expat Go, Andy Davison mentioned that less than 5% of the mm2h expats he's seen over ~20 years could meet the new criteria. I'm not a visa holder, btw.

I don't disagree with you, and actually I was responding to something said earlier in the thread. I also didn't mention I disagree with much that Henderson says, but I couldn't help but wonder if it spoke to a certain population, and that these are attemps to make it the new Singapore. It certainly prices me out, making Sarawak more attractive. However, prior to this I was considering not even bothering with MM2H as long as they continue to do a 90 day entry. In the short term we have family on 2 coasts of the US to deal with. This just seals the decision. It also makes me reconsider Panama, Portugal, Beliz, Mexico, and outher parts of South America.

There's an article I just found that I posted on the mm2h FB page entitled:
"Frankly Speaking: Drastic changes to MM2H will drive away prospective participants"
You can google it. The last paragraph reads.."We really have to ask ourselves if we are serious about wanting foreigners to make Malaysia their second home. We simply cannot formulate policies based on whims and fancies. After all, silver-hair programmes are not unique to Malaysia."
I thought that was a good way of putting it...whims and fancies. This dovetails your comment about making Malaysia the new Singapore. There is a bit of delusion sitting at Immigration (and the former Cabinet). They have preconceived notions about expats and crime, and I think they believe or want to believe Malaysia is more special than it really is. True, it does rank high in terms of a great place to retire. But that's for the financially comfortable looking for good healthcare and a lower cost of living, not the super wealthy. I know a super wealthy Japanese couple and they fly from Tokyo to places like San Francisco and Hong Kong (where they stay at the Peninsula..natch!). They're actually very nice and down-to-earth but in the past - as hard as I tried - I could not convince them to visit Malaysia. Go figure.

Ok, I am not rich (but I do own a nice home in San Francisco that is about to be paid off) but let's face it, the reason why the super rich do not go to Malaysia is the bloody heat.  Sure, they like nice, warm weather, but not the extreme humid tropical weather that is common with Malaysia.  Then, what amenities or attractions/sites/events cater to the super rich?  I can't honestly think of anything.  In the Bay Area, here, we have Napa with the fine wineries and the weather is fairly ideal year round.  Then, you have great high end restaurants and all the activities/events you can attend here.  What am I saying, I should stay here then.  But no, I did love Malaysia when I was there and my inlaws are there so that falls in the happy wife, happy life box which is huge as you all know.....

VitoNegroni wrote:

If I was making  a $10k/mo retirement I'm not sure Malaysia would be at the top of my list. However, if you watch Nomad Capitalist on youtube he is pitching Malaysia as a destination for 7/8 figure entrepreneurs frequently. He did not seem perturbed by the change. Sarawak is still a path to entry, although my preference was for Sabah. Is Borneo the new West Malaysia for types like us? BTW, my understanding is people on MM2H agree to not be politically involved, so I would be careful with any petitions.

Andrew Henderson is also a pathological liar. When I met him and his wife (last year) he got drunk and spilled all of the beans. He doesn't have MM2H and they were renting an apartment (she's the one who even told me where they live)...

He explained how he doesn't even need MM2H for the immigration queue since he just uses business class/first class for immigration lines as well.

He also went on this diatribe about how Malindo Airlines first class is terrible and how underrated Malaysia Airlines is.

So, of course he's not concerned about MM2H, he comes in on tourist stamps... Has anybody even asked themselves how he kept MM2H while renouncing his current nationality?

Rendang Lover wrote:

FireRooster1 wrote:

1openmind wrote:

They'll hire low wage workers from India. With no need for kids in international schools. Besides they won't want to buy properties and invest in mm2h. Keep dreaming

Dreaming?

Before I start, I'll preface this a few simple factoids:

1. There are already more high income and Employment Pass (EP) holding expatriates living in Malaysia than there are MM2H holders.

There are 57,478 MM2H holders
There are nearly 40,000 EP1 holders (T20 income)
And another 160,000 EP2 holders

2. Most MM2H holders are actually Chinese nationals or from the Overseas Chinese community.

3. Malaysia's turned down over 90% of most recent applications.


Regarding international schools
Most of best international schools in the country are in Klang Valley, and there are far EP1 holders in Klang Valley than there are MM2H holders. As far as I can tell MM2H holders are more likely to end up in Penang... and the average T20% income over 31% higher in Klang Valley than anywhere else in the country.

The biggest International schools won't really miss retirees 57,500, most of whom aren't even living around the most prestigious schools.

Regarding condos
1. The country is trying to slow down the foreign purchasing of condos, and EP1 holders are likely to live in high-end condos leased by their employers.

2. Most of the foreigners buying up condos aren't MM2H holders. They're foreign investors from within Asia simply looking to diversify their holdings. Before COVID-19 I was going on tours of new development sites that didn't even have sales material in English. They had to fetch an English speaker to give me the tour, because the target market is the massive overseas Chinese market...

Regarding foreign investment
Malaysia created MM2H before it was a middle income nation and it needed to focus on soliciting high-tech direct foreign investment. MM2H was created back when the country really DID need the MM2H money and the international exposure from a program like it.

Like I mentioned before, Microsoft alone is investing billions of dollars directly into the Malaysian economy. Microsoft's investment alone is equal to every MM2H holder pumping $80,030 directly into the economy.

And that's just Microsoft.

And don't even get me started on the massive focus on development and investments in Iskandar Malaysia (Johor).


Regarding the political and demographic implications of MM2H
The policymakers have decided that they don't want the entire country to be overrun by Chinese money, even more than it already is.

They already had to change the residency status granted to foreign property buyers to curb a wave of immigration, then they just flat-out started denying MM2H applications after Hong Kongers started applying for MM2H en masse.

MM2H holders aren't taxed at the same rates as employment pass holders and aren't direct job creators.

Malaysia has decided that it isn't worth the risk anymore, it's that simple. But, to state that the only foreign workers are low wage workers is erroneous.

Malaysia just doesn't need most MM2H holders anymore, I'm sure it sucks to hear, but it's true.

They need job creators and anybody who has enough money to be missed can easily start a company here and give themselves an employment pass to live here.

Otherwise, they're likely to be a highly affluent person from Hong Kong or China... And they'll still have enough money to get approved.

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>1. There are already more high income and Employment Pass (EP) holding expatriates living in Malaysia than there are MM2H holders.
***And there are more Malaysians than foreigners so why have any foreigners at all? Their contribution pales in comparison to what Malaysians contribute.

This is really a moot point, you're debating a counterpoint, and it's out of context.

>2.Most MM2H holders are actually Chinese nationals or from the Overseas Chinese community.
***Most? What's your source? According to this, mainland Chinese made up 30% in 2018. Singapore had 3%.  Hong Kong less than 3%.
https://www.mm2h.com/mm2h-statistics/

The largest group are overseas Chinese and Chinese nationals, that's a fact.

3. Malaysia's turned down over 90% of most recent applications.
***This is a canard. The head of the agent association made this unverified claim and the media picked it up and ran with it. Neither my agent or others (according to people I know) didn't experience this. One agent who specializes in South Korea said it was closer to a 56% rejection rate. And by the way, this was only for the Sep.-Dec. 2019 period. After rejection letters went out, Motac later returned all those applications submitted in 2020. In other words, they weren't even processed. Soon afterwards, most of those that were approved (but no approval letter issued due to the lockdown) were returned unprocessed. Immigration decided (unfairly) to return them so they would be resubmitted under the new terms. It was a crappy move from a heartless government.


I cannot verify the veracity of the statement, just what all of the country's media ran with. If I'm likely to be wrong with anything I've said then it would start with that statement and its implications. So, I apologize if I'm incorrect, but you're also ignoring the HKers who've been expatriating their money and dispersing throughout ASEAN (including MM2H)


"Malaysia" didn't decide to effectively kill the program.  The program was killed by the change in government in March 2020. There was a power struggle and Motac lost, Immigration won. Motac was focused on bringing in revenue. Immigration is focused on security. In their minds they think there is a meaningful amount of crime being committed by some who hold the mm2h visa. Where's the proof? There is none. But trying talking rationally to a xenophobic government, especially one that doesn't want to listen. And a naive one too. The assumption is that the super rich are not criminals so that's good, and they are super rich, so that's good too. Kills two birds with one stone. Except there was little crime to begin with among MM2Hers (as often noted by Andy Davison) and the super rich don't want to live in Malaysia. They're not trying to kill the program. Even they see value in it. They just don't know what the f**k they're doing. 

I won't argue that there is anti-Chinese sentiment. In fact, I agree the current government (at least as of yesterday) has been anti-foreigner since the pandemic started which coincided with their rise to power. But if that was there main goal - curtailing the Chinese - they could have easily set quotas on the number of Chinese receiving the visa, like Canada does. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if even a greater percentage comes from China because for westerners it's a clear deal breaker.

Malaysia is far more dependent on China than Canada, so this is really an apples to oranges thing. They have been anti-Chinese through certain policy rules, like favoring Anglophones when issuing certain passes.


By the way, MM2Hers are not "low net worth" individuals. That implies they have little in savings/investments. They are financially comfortable and by some definitions high net worth. But few are super rich.

They're not low net worth in the traditional sense, but they're typically not accredited investors, which is what MM2H suddenly pivoted towards.


This argument that MM2Hers aren't needed anymore is specious. It's been a great program because expats are spending a lot more money than the typical citizen and at almost zero cost to the country. At the same time it has been supporting many small businesses such as the 250 visa agencies, and travel and real estate companies. There is such a thing called the multiplier effect. You cherry-picked one story related to foreign investment - and inflated the dollar impact - and decided mm2h expats can't help contribute to securing foreign investment anymore?  Did you see the part of the article I linked which said "foreign direct investments (FDI) plunged by 68 per cent last year, the biggest decline in Southeast Asia?  Are you suggesting the mm2h program has no value anymore when the country should be, metaphorically speaking, counting paper clips? And what about the goodwill that was built? Shouldn't Malaysia be at least a bit concerned about their image. Or does a country's image not matter in your opinion?

They've made the calculus to focus heavily on tech and less on immigration, you don't have to lecture me about FDI, I'm not a policymaker... I'm just seeing what's clear as day. And I referred to Microsoft, because it was an event I attended and saw how nearly a third the cabinet (including the PM) was in attendance, making it obvious where their priorities were.

As for Malaysia FDI, I actually questioned Tengku Zafrul Aziz regarding the numbers he was quoting, it even drew the attention of Bank Negara's staff... So, yes I'm aware of MAS's FDI issues and how we're specifically losing opportunities to Indonesia & Vietnam. They were projecting that MAS would have the second fastest recovery rate in all of Asia (regardless of any recent FDI data), so that should give you an idea of where they stand.

I'm not saying MM2H doesn't have value, I'm saying that it's pretty obvious that MM2H holders aren't as important to Malaysia as they think they are.

When you read the scores of comments about the changes there are MANY comments that could be considered haughty and slightly out-of-touch with how the Bumiputera lawmakers have been assessing the situation.



The powers that be made a bad decision. They may think it's a good decision but its funny how they won't explain their rationale. I'm convinced they are not a sophisticated lot. KPMG came in, did a thorough review and said the current program for retirees was good. They recommended only a few tweaks. They also recommended an RGI program for under 50 year olds. But the Cabinet made their own changes and approved only an RBI program - and without the "R" - and applied it to everyone over 35yo. Genius. With less than 1/10 of 1% of the population living in Malaysia, the government could have just let the program slowly bleed out without screwing those who already have the visa.  Instead, I think they believe the super rich are actually going to appear in droves. Don't believe me? Take a look at Sabah's program. They said they are looking for 200 applicants a year who have at least $3 million. Sabah. Not London or New York. I will be stunned if they get five. Yeah, these guys are really tuned in.

Replies within.

If you want to understand where they're coming from when drafting polices around MM2H, start here.

[link under review]

FireRooster1 wrote:

Andrew Henderson is also a pathological liar. When I met him and his wife (last year) he got drunk and spilled all of the beans. He doesn't have MM2H and they were renting an apartment (she's the one who even told me where they live)...

He explained how he doesn't even need MM2H for the immigration queue since he just uses business class/first class for immigration lines as well.

He also went on this diatribe about how Malindo Airlines first class is terrible and how underrated Malaysia Airlines is.

So, of course he's not concerned about MM2H, he comes in on tourist stamps... Has anybody even asked themselves how he kept MM2H while renouncing his current nationality?

Aaaaahahahahahahahahaha

I figured that guy was a colossal d-bag. Thanks for confirming that. Now I can fully ignore him. You made my day.

I am currently a holder of MM2H pass. I too am sickened and disgusted by the 'new and improved' financial requirements. I plan to terminate my existing one and apply for s-mm2h pass. I am searching for the procedure to find out how to go about doing it.

Firechicken,
>>Most MM2H holders are actually Chinese nationals or from the Overseas Chinese community.
Me: Most? What's your source? According to this, mainland Chinese made up 30% in 2018. Singapore had 3%.  Hong Kong less than 3%.
https://www.mm2h.com/mm2h-statistics/
>>The largest group are overseas Chinese and Chinese nationals, that's a fact.
Me:  Hey, nice strawman argument!  Did I dispute that? Nope. On the contrary, I already knew that. I disputed your claim that – and I think I'm quoting you directly (please see above) – that *most* MM2H holders are Chinese nationals, etc. You did write the word most, correct? I did write “Most” with a question mark, correct?  Ok, just checking. 
>>..but you're also ignoring the HKers who've been expatriating their money and dispersing throughout ASEAN (including MM2H)
Me: Sir, what are you talking about? No, don't answer that. Please try to stay on point and quit obfuscating.

>>Malaysia is far more dependent on China than Canada, so this is really an apples to oranges thing.
Me: No, your comment has little relevance. Immigration could have put a limited percentage coming from each country, say 10%. That would have had the effect of significantly reducing the number of successful Chinese applicants while still giving them a decent amount. Another idea batted around was limiting total approvals each year; so easy to reduce the number of Chinese applications, along with rejecting a higher percentage of them. It's no secret the recent government was xenophobic particularly when it came to mainland Chinese. On Nancy's FB page, mind you, she wrote that she preferred having more people from Hong Kong apply rather than China. Does that sound like the previous government cared what China thinks when it comes to its own immigration policy? You yourself said favorites were played. The primary concern of Immigration is not whether the Chinese buy up high-end properties that nearly all Malaysians can't afford anyway. Their major concern (whether it is with merit or not) has been crime coming mostly from China (and Bangladesh).

Me: By the way, MM2Hers are not "low net worth" individuals. That implies they have little in savings/investments. They are financially comfortable and by some definitions high net worth. But few are super rich.
>>They're not low net worth in the traditional sense, but they're typically not accredited investors, which is what MM2H suddenly pivoted towards.
Me: I'm going to assume you meant a sophisticated investor when you say accredited investor although it's a term I never used.  Actually, I decided to look up the definition and per Wikipedia: “An accredited or sophisticated investor is an investor with a special status under financial regulation laws. The definition of an accredited investor (if any), and the consequences of being classified as such, vary between countries.[1] Generally, accredited investors include high-net-worth individuals, banks, financial institutions, and other large corporations, who have access to complex and higher-risk investments such as venture capital, hedge funds, and angel investments.”
When I worked as an investment manager at a bank that catered to high net worth individuals, the term high net worth meant someone with a certain amount of assets, such as one million dollars. For some it still does. As it were, our clients ran the spectrum. Young, old, employed, unemployed, entrepreneurs, trust fund babies, professionals such as doctors or lawyers, entertainers, etc.  The common denominator was they were all high net worth individuals. None of them were sophisticated investors, which is why they hired us. As far as I can tell, the new program is targeting the same kind of people. So why do you think the program is targeting people who “have access to complex and higher-risk investments such as venture capital, hedge funds, and angel investments.”  All I see – and I think all they care about – are high-net worth individuals who can meet all the requirements. 

>>They've made the calculus to focus heavily on tech and less on immigration, you don't have to lecture me about FDI, I'm not a policymaker... I'm just seeing what's clear as day. And I referred to Microsoft, because it was an event I attended and saw how nearly a third the cabinet (including the PM) was in attendance, making it obvious where their priorities were.
Me: Another strawman. Who argued that Malaysia is not trying to court high-tech companies? Aaaand..these people made the calculus..??  Lol. These people couldn't make their beds. You give them way too much credit. I'd rather credit industry leaders and other professionals who usually do most of the work anyway, rather than a bunch of incompetent, backdoor government officials. The recent regime was set on being anti-foreigner as soon as they gained power. Please don't sugarcoat that. And I think everyone knows where their priorities are not.

>>I'm not saying MM2H doesn't have value, I'm saying that it's pretty obvious that MM2H holders aren't as important to Malaysia as they think they are.  When you read the scores of comments about the changes there are MANY comments that could be considered haughty and slightly out-of-touch with how the Bumiputera lawmakers have been assessing the situation.
Me: Why do you write as if the politicians are a bunch of Einsteins while the expats are a bunch of idiots? It sounds like you have an ax to grind. Am I wrong? Weelll, my first clue was when you wrote, “Malaysia doesn't need 57,000 self-important low net worth retirees.” Not a very nice calculus you made there, my friend. And just to let you know, that 57k number includes dependents so let's leave the kids out of this, ok? lol.

We're going to have to disagree why the last government changed the program and so on. However, I will say this. If the former PM hadn't basically snuck into his position, the program would still be going strong under the previous terms. I agree with you that some expats do bring a kind of colonial attitude with them which puts me off. Most are ok though. In addition, some overstate their contribution even though it is tangible and a benefit to the country. At the same time, I think the last government understated it. I've also noticed a few expats who have no problem being apologists for a corrupt government as long they remain unaffected. Cheers.

Rendang Humper wrote:

Firechicken,
....

Ok.

You're right, I'm wrong, the politicians are wrong, everybody is incompetent except for you.

:-)

removed

rkla wrote:

With the new regulations on the way, MM2H will be a history for most of us and it will be only for selected high net worth individuals. I feel sorry for retired people enjoying Malaysia. 

What are the alternatives available for MM2H elsewhere in the world?

That would be a subject for a new topic; there are lots of sites out there identifying expat retirement locations, but maybe a thread discussing the particular circumstances of those of us with MM2H: and if anyone has hard data on procedure to get money out of Malaysia when we leave (the FD and house sale proceeds) that would be helpful.

The new MM2H program will get less applicants than you can count the number of fingers on both hands. 57000x$40k about 2 BILLION will be leaving the banks. It will be good though I like a weak ringgit. Then if I do go for smm2h my USD will go much further.. WOOHOO
The new program rocks. Oh what do you get for $250k fixed deposit OH nothing.!1

United States Dollar equals
4.24 Malaysian
I can't wait for this to go to 5+

bandarputra11970 wrote:

I am currently a holder of MM2H pass. I too am sickened and disgusted by the 'new and improved' financial requirements. I plan to terminate my existing one and apply for s-mm2h pass. I am searching for the procedure to find out how to go about doing it.

***

@VWC here it is!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f81sqcPWNZY

For those interested in Sarawak-MM2H, the agent I used can now arrange for travel to Sarawak for 3 days, 2 nights in order to apply, without quarantine as long as you have been fully vaccinated. PM me with your email address for details.

Cobolin wrote:

For those interested in Sarawak-MM2H, the agent I used can now arrange for travel to Sarawak for 3 days, 2 nights in order to apply, without quarantine as long as you have been fully vaccinated. PM me with your email address for details.

I just heard that the 3d2n option only applies to those already in Malaysia. Otherwise it's 14 days quarantine.

Here's something interesting. MM2H: An Unfolding International Relations Disaster

https://www.theinsnews.com/postview/407 … qJ8JPlm2LY

1openmind wrote:

Here's something interesting. MM2H: An Unfolding International Relations Disaster

https://www.theinsnews.com/postview/407 … qJ8JPlm2LY

Good, maybe they will get their heads out of their arses and fix the darn program in short order...

I doubt it they're pretty delusional like some on this board.

I was thinking that it might impact Singapore-Malaysian relations for the worse. Many Singaporean elders take the opportunity to download their Singapore property and move to Johor-Iskander, They are just a hop across the causeway , close to all their government services (healthcare) in Singapore, and near family. Despite selling that property they are not wealthy, but may be sufficient to buy a property across the causeway and have a nest-egg that tides them over.

This change may impact thousands of Singapore retirees who may have to return to the island state in some degree of destitution and having to find a new domicile in a real estate market that has grown more expensive since they left. They may find it nearly imposible to find a buyer for their Malaysian home. Nobody is coming in looking.

Yeah - international crisis.

It appears that Sarawak is more than willing to povide those that do not qualify for the NEW MM2H visa with a Sarawak My Second Home option.

Note: For those over 50 there is no reuirement to buy property in Sarawak...or even to rent. There is a 15 day/year visit requirement in order to get an extension after the first 5 years.

For those 40-50 without children enrolling in a Sarawak school there is a property purchase requirement. A minimum RM600,000 condo or house in Sarawak,

https://dayakdaily.com/sarawak-welcome- … demanding/

If you are 30  and have childen attending a Sarawak international or local school one does not have to buy property, but to my knowledge there are no boarding schools so one parent would have to live in Sarawak.

New Regulations for the MM2H Program - Feedback Form

Following the Malaysian Government's decision and amendments to the MM2H program, some bi-lateral Business Chambers in Malaysia would like MM2H holders to take this survey to help us with our advocacy and communication with the Malaysian authorities. We will use the results to prepare for upcoming dialogues with MITI, MoHA and MOTAC.

IMPORTANT NOTE:
(i) This survey is only for those currently under the MM2H Programme
(ii) Information received will be aggregated and treated as confidential.

And most of that investment will be the cloud servers and other hardware they bring in. Investment in" a country is not necessarily income transfer intothe country.
This is my gripe with the FD for MM2H. Its a different sort of investment than, say, property. And property is difference from hiring a housekeeper.

An FD is somewhat like a longterm loan you are making to the bank. It improves their reserves so they can make loans to others. But when you leave you'll take that money away, with interest. Helps a tad with the currency exchange reserves. Helps keep the ringgit strong. When you (and others on MM2H) pull their 12.5bn accounts out of the banks the Ringgitt depreciates.

A housing purchase puts money into the pocket of a local, but you'll likely get some if not more back, plus capital gains (which is taxed by the government). The furniture you put into the house that is shipped in from abroad would be equivalent to the hardware that Microsoft is importing. You would not say your furniture is an investment into the Malaysian economy would you?

The best for the economy is someone exchanging foreign currency for Ringgitt and then hiring that maid (if she is Malaysian...but if she's Indonesian she's probably paying a large chunk of change to an agent...so there's that) OR to buying that meal in a local kopitiam. Or maybe the California Fried Chicken (vs. the KFC franchise).

Ok, when even a Sultan is complaining about it maybe the wheels will start rolling....backwards!!!!!


https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/ … conditions

YES, GREAT NEWS EVERYBODY!!!!!!

https://www.expatgo.com/my/2021/09/01/g … h-changes/

Source: Free Malaysia Today:

PUTRAJAYA: Home minister Hamzah Zainudin has told foreigners already enrolled in the Malaysia My Second Home (MM2H) programme and living here not to worry about the new conditions set by the ministry.

In a press conference, he noted that many existing participants had voiced their concern over the stricter conditions announced last month, which included compulsory fixed deposits (FD) in local banks worth RM1 million and offshore monthly income of RM40,000.

“I know this improvement has made those who have already registered as MM2H holders anxious. Don't worry, I give my assurance that I will take another look at the standing of those who have already enrolled,” he said.

Hamzah added that the conditions were tightened after the immigration department found that more than 7,000 people enrolled in the programme were believed to be not residing in Malaysia.

He said these individuals would only enter and stay in the country for a short period of time, particularly just to register for the programme and renew their passes.

“The improvements made to the application conditions are to ensure that only those who are of ‘good quality', genuine and who can really contribute to the nation's economy are allowed to join the programme,” he said.

Among those who have called for the new MM2H conditions to be reviewed is Johor Ruler Sultan Ibrahim Sultan Iskandar, who said it would dent the country's revenue and frighten off investors.

Since the programme first began in 2002, 57,478 foreigners have been given long-term MM2H passes, comprising 28,249 principals and 29,229 dependents.

However, the programme was suspended in September 2018 for a review, before being reopened again. It was again temporarily frozen in July last year for another review.

Aside from the higher minimum FDs and offshore monthly income, the new conditions also require applicants to have at least RM1.5 million in liquid assets, compared with between RM300,000 and RM500,000 previously.

The tenure of the renewable multiple-entry visa has also been reduced to five years from 10 years previously. The visa also comes with a new condition that requires all MM2H holders to stay in Malaysia for a total of at least 90 days per year.

Hamzah urged all parties to consider the matter from a broader perspective, pointing out that the programme had not been updated or reviewed for almost 20 years.

He said there was a need to consider the nation's future and economy in the matter, adding that the stricter criteria would guarantee a better future for Malaysia.

He also said the previous RM10,000 monthly income requirement for participants was irrelevant and too low.

“All applicants and dependents must get through the authorities' safety filters. For those who are active and residing in the country for certain reasons, we will discuss with them again.

“For example, for those who have stayed in the country for more than 10 years, we will look for ways to continue allowing them to reside here. If possible, those who stay here should be of quality and are capable of helping us economically.”

He added that MM2H had generated RM11.89 billion for the economy from 2002 to 2019 through visa fees, the purchase of real estate and private vehicles, permanent savings and monthly household spending.

In shorter terms:

-- If you've been here for a decade, under MM2H, you might be grandfathered in for renewals under the previous agreement.

-- They're trying to keep out people who don't want to live in Malaysia full-time.

-- They're interested in people with FAR MORE money than the previous requirements demanded.

-- MM2H generated RM11.89 Billion for the Malaysian economy over the better part of the last twenty years. Specifically: RM660.55 million per year.

FireRooster1 wrote:

-- MM2H generated RM11.89 Billion for the Malaysian economy over the better part of the last twenty years. Specifically: RM660.55 million per year.

That number doesn't work, RM660.55 million per year works out to less than RM1000 per month for each of 57,000 expats under the program. I suspect that most spend 5x-10x  on the local economy.  Prior to Covid-19 we averaged that on hotels travelling around the country. I know expats spending RM3000-4000 for rent.

iskandarhack wrote:

FireRooster1 wrote:

-- MM2H generated RM11.89 Billion for the Malaysian economy over the better part of the last twenty years. Specifically: RM660.55 million per year.

That number doesn't work, RM660.55 million per year works out to less than RM1000 per month for each of 57,000 expats under the program. I suspect that most spend 5x-10x  on the local economy.  Prior to Covid-19 we averaged that on hotels travelling around the country. I know expats spending RM3000-4000 for rent.

I don't know why you think your guess is better than the Home Minister's figures, but I'll play along with you.

Source: Free Malaysia Today:

"Hamzah added that the conditions were tightened after the immigration department found that more than 7,000 people enrolled in the programme were believed to be not residing in Malaysia."

"Since the programme first began in 2002, 57,478 foreigners have been given long-term MM2H passes, comprising 28,249 principals and 29,229 dependents."

Everybody keeps on saying 57,000... There aren't 57,000 INDIVIDUALS INVESTING. There are 29,229 dependents, 7,000 people who don't spend ANY time here, and who knows how many only live here part time or are even living at all.

Everybody keeps on saying 57,000 like there are 57,000 people here just spending RM10,0000 a month... Which just isn't the case.

If you only use 21,000 the number is still about RM2600 per month, which still low IMHO. I'm not trying to estimate the amount.  Just commenting that the estimate appears low. Even if it's correct, killing off a program that contributes RM660.55 million per year doesn't make sense. As to those that don't live in Malaysia, has anyone explained why that is a huge problem. It might make sense to cancel or not renew their visas, but drastically change the  rules in order to kill the program?  If the issue has to do with the number of applicants from a particular country being too high, then implement limits. No more than 500 applicants from Denmark as an excellent,  they could have limits easily by country.  If the goal is to phase out the program then do so.

I'm not on the program so I don't have a horse in the race, but making observation.

iskandarhack wrote:

If you only use 21,000 the number is still about RM2600 per month, which still low IMHO. I'm not trying to estimate the amount.  Just commenting that the estimate appears low. Even if it's correct, killing off a program that contributes RM660.55 million per year doesn't make sense. As to those that don't live in Malaysia, has anyone explained why that is a huge problem. It might make sense to cancel or not renew their visas, but drastically change the  rules in order to kill the program?  If the issue has to do with the number of applicants from a particular country being too high, then implement limits. No more than 500 applicants from Denmark as an excellent,  they could have limits easily by country.  If the goal is to phase out the program then do so.

I'm not on the program so I don't have a horse in the race, but making observation.

Let's be honest, Malaysia Government wants its cake and to eat it too.  Who honestly will be mostly eligible under these or some watered down rules?  The Chinese.  Yet, they will complain about how many are applying and eligible.  They probably don't want to quota limit China since that means they miss out on some money.  Well, what to do????

Those 7000 Chinese that don't live in Malaysia are probably sending their kids to school there paying $10000 or more per year for tuition. They don't live there,  but they probably have family members staying there. Whom they support too.
There is way more money being spent by expats and the Chinese then they can calculate. I'd be spending $2500 a month or more easily. I am just a poor old sap.

1openmind wrote:

Those 7000 Chinese that don't live in Malaysia are probably sending their kids to school there paying $10000 or more per year for tuition. They don't live there,  but they probably have family members staying there. Whom they support too.
There is way more money being spent by expats and the Chinese then they can calculate. I'd be spending $2500 a month or more easily. I am just a poor old sap.

My take on that complaint about the 7k or 8k that don't live there is that, well, that may have been the goal or the hope of the program to encourage mostly retirees who would reside there, but you (Malaysia) set up the rules right?  Did I not see advertisement from either my very own agent or through the Malaysia MM2H website promoting the "come as you please within that 10 year period" aspect of the program?  Well, that means to me, come as you please, not necessarily live here!  Everybody obviously did as you asked (or they wouldn't be a participant) and now 20 years later you want to make it up in one swoop?  Good luck....

The MM2H program helps economically but it is not a do or die for Malaysia like some people are trying to portray it.
Given all the troubles in the world (No thanks to those causing them), I imagine the supply is high for those who want to come here and hence the new restrictive MM2H requirements.
Malaysia is, like many other countries, trying to limit the number of non-citizens in the country to provide more opportunities for its own people. By the way, the MM2H is not the only source for non-citizens to come and reside in the country.
Finally, as a guest in this country, I utilize the country infrastructure, low cost services, food ..etc. At the same time, I spend my money here and that helps the economy.  So, expats don't just give to the host country, but they also take!

Quite true that there are other visas that expats use to enter Malaysia, and some don't use legal means at all. Before Covid many used the revolving door system of tourist visas and "visa runs"- living in Malaysia and simply spending enough time out of the country to return without immigration scrutiny. Some people doing this were working low skilled jobs without a work visa. Others simply were smuggled in from Indonesia, Thailand, or the Philippines. Okay, maybe these don't fill your definition of "expat" but they are foreigners in semi-longterm residence. They definitely contribute in significant way to the coney, but also send much of their income out.

Then there are the ones on an official EP, receiving a salary, and who will repatriate themselves and their earnings back to their homeland when the jobs finished. Ditto with the Talent Visa program, Investor programs (which are mainly about generating profit for the investor, while certainly using local labor and resources).

The fact is that MM2H is a net gain for the country, and most if not all MM2H recipients can't qualify for these other programs. Principally they are retired, or work outside the country, and while doing well are not millionaires. That's why they are on MM2H.

MM2H is almost purely taking money earned from abroad and putting it into the local economy. You can't work on it (though one can, and many do, volunteer), if you own a business you can't actually manage it...you must hire a local manager and local staff...,and your profit will be taxed. You are required to put a large sum (RM300K) into a Fixed account that assists the bank by providing the equity to make loans to (hopefully) locals. The FD, because it requires one to convert foreign currency into Ringgit, also supports the value of the Ringgit.

While MN2H recipients DO benefit from the lower cost of living in Malaysia to do that they have to buy (or rent). No one is arguing that people move to Malaysia because its charity. Yes, they are trying to stretch their retirement dollars in a nice environment  with friendly people and some level of stability and low crime. So they benefit. That also means a local benefits from getting the rent on their condo or are able to sell their house,. Or a dealer a car, or a restaurant  large meal.

But there are other places that offer these qualities. Previously they were a tad more expensive or povided a shorter visa. So looking at this from purely economical terms are you saying that Malaysia benefits more when that individual rents, buys property/car, in purchases goods, services, food in THAILAND?

Paradoxically, the Home Affairs Miinster is now on a rip complaining about about some MM2H recipients not living ENOUGH in Malaysia. Yet he's created a system that will make Malaysia absolutely unaffordable for 90% and drive out the remaining 10% because they can find more affordable places in the region. And even those that are living outside are either dependents on the MM2H visa (kids or elderly parents) or a principal who is working abroad to supoort their dependents living IN MALAYSIA, There is nothing sinister or criminal about this. It's allowed on the previous visa  and was, in fact, promoted as a sort of a benefit of the program. How could a person living OUTSIDE of Malaysia be doing anything criminal IN MALAYSIA? And while not "extracting" any of the so-called benefits of cheaper cost of living, lower hospital rates, etc. the actually have placed a RM300,000 Fixed Deposit just like every other recipient.

7000 X RM300,000 = RM2.1 billion. If you cancel their MM2H visas for simply following the rules because you "think" there is hanky-panky going on...then that amount will leave the economy virtually overnight. That's going to cause depreciation on the Ringgit and reduce the amount of money available for loans.

IF those people invested on a "retirement" home then that will have to be sold..,.the money gained leaves Malaysia.  If the homes/condos that aren't sold or rented contributes to overhang (vacant units on the market) then in produces a decline in the housing market...oversupply...resulting in a depreciation of housing prices...which then creates presure on the developers to reduce the number of units they are building...retrenchment in the construction industry, etc. But rentals that go unoccuped also impacts the housing market. Sometimes when people shift from homes to rentals in a tight economy its not as harmful...but this is different. It's the flight of capital FROM the entire country,

It's not even your typical "run on the bank". That money is still used domestically. This is  different animal...more akin to Idi Amin's kicking the Asians out of Uganda (although even there his rationale was that the Indians were transferring the money back to India...so he expropriated (i.e. stole) it from them). Maybe it mirrors Zimbabwe, more? But again...remember...this is money being brought INTO the country and spent here.

35,000 Principal Visa Holders  x RM300K = RM 10.5 billion for the MM2H Fixed Deposit...not including all the other FD's and saving deposits that will be drawn out of banks.

Investors like nations that have governments that behave rationally, particularly when it applies to economic matters. They like systems where the negotitions for renewal are generally based on the same terms and conditions, not based on the irrational mercuril whims of some official who seems to think "what are these visa applicants getting out of this financially? Doesn't make sense to me. It must be somehow criminal activity, if we can just find it?"

When you are wired to think that the criminals are fiendishly clever, then when you don't find any evidence of crimes being committed, it just proves the point..."they are fiendishly clever".

[BTW there is a provision in the new regulations that the Ministry of Home Affairs "to ensure control over MM2H participants ...through the enforcement agencies under it, namely the Department of Immigration and the Royal Malaysian Police" will carry out monitoring and enforcement from time to time."]