Address card for non-EU nationals

Jennifer_BudaVar1014 wrote:

Unfortunately my clever ancestors left europe, colonised africa without keeping their european relations and now the joke is on me.

Hind sight is always 20:20. At the time, maybe your ancestors benefited greatly by moving to Africa.

Over time, circumstances simply change. For example, what if, you move back to Europe and then in 50 years Africa is the growth capital of the world and Europe is in precipitous decline? How might your children react to your decision? A tough call. We all can only make decisions based on what we know today, and hope for the future.

P.S. If you have a family history in Hungary, then look into simplified naturalization. A way to "undo" your ancestors not keeping up with their European heritage.

Don't feel too badly, I am a card carrying passport holder from the USA and that does not exactly open many doors either.
Once they realize I am not a Rockerfeller, they slam the door on my way out!
It really is all about how much you can afford to pay someone to get you in.
Hungary has sold out it's soul for a few pieces of gold.
My father was born in Poland pre commie times, that door is also shut for me.
Maybe you can get some sort of resident card from your husbands EU country?
Come to HU from there?

BTW,  the UK accepts investors from anywhere, with the same limited visitation rights BUT empty property ownership by Chinese investors relying on capital growth is causing a housing shortage.  The astronomical rises of property prices in the South East is pricing locals out of the market.  There is talk of restricting purchases to those that live in the property for X months of the year.  Of course, this would be more than the standard visa length to exclude these individual investors.  If this went ahead, suddenly there would be a temporary glut as they all rapidly cashed out.  They could all come to HU and start investing here.  UK has zero tax on some types of inflationary property capital gains depending on the investor.  Not the same in HU as far as I know so perhaps not such a cash inflow could be expected.  In my area, rumours are that houses prices are up 10% in 18 months.  A little bit off topic but perhaps relevant to non-EU property owners.

Slightly dated but still good; showing recent historical percentages:
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Hungary

My experience is that the Budapesti property market is showing healthy increases (when I look at ingatlan.com).  I do not know about property outside of Bp personally, but did some Googling and found:

https://next.ft.com/content/13f74b06-67 … b88f7d973f

Also found this:
According to Otthon Centrum's predictions, in 2015, around 130-135 000 housing sales were finalised in Hungary – they expect even more for 2016, around 155 000. Based on advance data, the unit price of pre-owned flats has risen by 11.6%, while that of newly constructed flats with 6.7% compared to 2014; the first quarter of 2016 saw even more increase.
....
In the first quarter of the current year, based on Otthon Centrum's sales experiences, prices have also been on the rise in rural areas as well. In the case of pre-owned homes (family homes, townhouses and panel flats), each became 5-15% more expensive in most cities, but in certain places such as Debrecen, the market saw a rise in average prices per m2 surpassing 20%. In the case of recently constructed townhouse flats, the amount of average price rise surpassed 15% in certain cities such as Szeged or Sopron, but in most towns it stayed under 5%.

http://www.budapestpropertysellers.com/ … ing_-part1http://www.budapestpropertysellers.com/ … ing_-part2

Yes, my husband keeps an eye on BP real estate, we have FINALLY recouped our investment and then some.Thinking of taking the money and running before either things get weird or we get too old and settled to move on.
I remember back in the 1980's, our neighbor said he had plans to buy up homes in our neighborhood because he predicted the within a few decades house prices would go to the moon and that Chinese would be the big buyers. This was in a nice family neighborhood where almost everyone was a professional or an original owner, even when the homes were new in 1956 they were not cheap.
Googled my old home about 5 years back and it was selling for the mid $700,000! Probably going for allot more now, it was only a 4 bd house with a pool, nothing overly fancy.
Oh, yes we had sold to our neighbor, he had bought up 3 homes in a one block radius. He at the time was from the middle east and was only 27 years old, He is probably a very rich man now.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

.....Googled my old home about 5 years back and it was selling for the mid $700,000! Probably going for allot more now, it was only a 4 bd house with a pool, nothing overly fancy.
Oh, yes we had sold to our neighbor, he had bought up 3 homes in a one block radius. He at the time was from the middle east and was only 27 years old, He is probably a very rich man now.

That's what they say about land - "they aren't making any more of it". 

Probably the best investment at any time except where the state expropriates it, e.g. Zimbabwe, but even there, when Bob dies, there will be a reckoning and restitution - cold comfort for sure. Hungarian history of course has a history of stealing people's land (and giving it back).

South Africa is next to Zim, guess where land grabs just started...  If you have land in a country where land isnt worth much or being land grabbed it doesnt help much having land, as is happening in SA now. In africa land isnt a safe/good investment

Jennifer_BudaVar1014 wrote:

South Africa is next to Zim, guess where land grabs just started...  If you have land in a country where land isnt worth much or being land grabbed it doesnt help much having land, as is happening in SA now. In africa land isnt a safe/good investment

No, that's right. 

But when Bob  has gone, and if there's reform, they will need external aid. The conditions of aid from the international community will include land reform and compensation for those who lost property due to Zanu PF's policies.  How quickly that happens, who knows, Bob seems to go on and on. 

In theory, it's safer in Europe (but even then, don't be too sure, Spain has land grabs). Google "Ley Reguladora de la Actividad Urbanística (LRAU)".  Infamous.

Vicces1 wrote:

the Budapesti property market is showing healthy increases

But the real question is what percentages of these increases are really structural, that is being caused by the firming up of the general economy, versus what percent is caused by government financing programs which may not be long term sustainable, or being driven by speculation, and may thus lead to a price bubble.

So one must consider many angles.

klsallee wrote:

Vicces1 wrote:

the Budapesti property market is showing healthy increases

But the real question is what percentages of these increases are really structural, that is being caused by the firming up of the general economy, versus what percent is caused by government financing programs which may not be long term sustainable, or being driven by speculation, and may thus lead to a price bubble.

So one must consider many angles.

Probably driven by lousy investment opportunities elsewhere, safe haven and unpredictable economics.   Don't think it's growth or betting on the economy. Might be remittances.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Probably driven by lousy investment opportunities elsewhere, safe haven and unpredictable economics.   Don't think it's growth or betting on the economy. Might be remittances.

For example, the Government currently giving grants and low interest loans specifically to buy housing to people who have, or plan to have, 3 or more children. When people are given essentially easy money to spend in only one industry or sector, it usually causes price increases and possibly a bubble.

I hope not, I just bought!

klsallee wrote:

.....people who have, or plan to have, 3 or more children. When people are given essentially easy money to spend in only one industry or sector, it usually causes price increases and possibly a bubble.

I think that's quite unjust.  Why 3 kids? Why not 2? or 1?  Why punish those people who perhaps, through no fault of their own, cannot have more than 1 or 2 children? 

If it was a fixed amount or pro-rata at some rate I could understand it.  I hope someone challenges that asap.

In any case, the help they get is not particularly high as far as I know. 

I have noticed an uptick in building work as I travel around.  But I think it's just money seeking a home in times of uncertainty.  Our own builders are quite hard to get hold of these days. Always busy.

I would have thought also, those working away, in Germany or in the UK etc, will be bringing money back.  That has to be a good thing

fluffy2560 wrote:

I think that's quite unjust.  Why 3 kids? Why not 2? or 1?

From all I have read from government ministers and spokesmen (not "spokespersons" since there are no, for example, women cabinet ministers in Hungary) the government seems to base such policies around their ethnocentric agendas and rhetoric. That is, they simply want more "Hungarians". Having "only" 2 children just replaces the parents. Not good enough. Having just 1 child means less Hungarians. So, basically, if, and only if, you reproduce enough, you are rewarded.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I have noticed an uptick in building work as I travel around.  But I think it's just money seeking a home in times of uncertainty.

Well it seems strange to me that "suddenly" the money to buy and build homes happened around the period this grant/loan program started. And that "suddenly" so many people here thought that home ownership was a place to park their money, and that "suddenly" they had that money to park. All seems rather.... coincidental to me. If there is one thing I experienced here, is that very little really happens here unless there is a grant or low cost loan involved from the government (which often really means EU money). In many ways, the economy is centrally planned, and the government does not even pretend it is not. Which means if it stays that way.... eventually it will fail. As history has shown (despite some politicians thinking they have new ideas that can not fail and are somehow different).

Vicces1 wrote:

I hope not, I just bought!

My wife and I bought 16 years ago. Owning your own place is its own reward. And as an investment, give it at least 20 years. If you paid cash or bought on a loan with good terms bubbles and crashes are not that relevant to the long term investor.

Fortunate enough to have bought with cash. Looking forward to not having a mortgage!!
And since I'm not anticipating a move from this residence for 5+ years minimum, the daily/monthly/yearly variances aren't as much an issue as the overall trend.
The house I have in the US was bought after the US bubble crashed, and only last year did prices recover in my area.  However, during that time I've lived there -- ya gotta live somewhere! -- taken mortgage and other tax deductions, become part of a community, led said community as President of the Association, made great (hopefully lifelong) friends who will be visiting me in Hungary, and so much more.
It's been a place of love, family, merriment, parties, holidays, birthdays, refuge, solace, the joy of cooking, the fun of poker night, and so much more.
The investment in a property is much more than a mathematical decision.  And I'm not looking for an investment so much as value.  But I'm still looking forward to no mortgage!

klsallee wrote:

....That is, they simply want more "Hungarians". Having "only" 2 children just replaces the parents. Not good enough. Having just 1 child means less Hungarians. So, basically, if, and only if, you reproduce enough, you are rewarded.

I smiled a bit at that.  But in this parallel universe called Hungary, which logic prevails? Read on....

As we have two Hungarian Fluffyettes, this means the general net increase in Hungarians for us is +1 What I mean by this is that, me being only a mere mortal British person, Mrs Fluffy and I have generated one extra Hungarian. Yay, are we entitled now?  Hungarian means culturally and linguistically Hungarian, not necessarily genetically Hungarian (if there is even such a thing). Don't know if that counts as "Hungarian".

On the other hand, the Fluffyettes being only 1/2 Hungarian, only counts for a net increase of 0 (2x Hungarian kids 1/2 ethnicity = +1 gain, replacing Mrs Fluffy, net gain of 0). Ya boo sucks, not entitled!

Somewhere in this +1 more Hungarians scheme of the government, there seems an injustice.

We did think of a 3rd Fluffyette but we were too old and it was too risky.  Utterly missed the boat now.  And punished forever more. But the Fluffyettes might (sometime) sort it out.

The whole thing about replacing  the population is just weird.
Overall the world population has increased.
My mom for example had 6 kids ( that lived) , only 3 of us had one child each and so far from that lot there is only one great grandkid.
I believe if my mom had a choice she wouldn't have had any kids, no choices in her day.
We are dying out as a family but overall world population is increasing.
It seems so racist overall for only HU DNA to count.
This whole HU only thing has even gotten to our son's mind set.
He is half HU and 1/4th Rusin which is basically  a sub group of the slavs, German and a mix of English and Mohawk, 6'3" slim natural green eyed redhead, one would never guess his great grannie lived on a res. Even he thinks he should have a child with HU blood, still thinks about someday having a child with a HU women to keep the blood line going.
Crazy can be contagious, the world is in such bad shape that anyone who can survive the next hundred years will have to be a super human.

fluffy2560 wrote:

But in this parallel universe called Hungary, which logic prevails?

Actually, that is exactly the type of "logic" and behavior one would expect of a Political Machine.

The government is pandering to its base for short term political reasons. In short, the government is right sided, and conservatives tend to have more children than liberals.

All possible consequences that may occur from this current policy are simply kicked down the road.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

The whole thing about replacing  the population is just weird.
Overall the world population has increased.

The Hungarian population is in decline:

http://www.portfolio.hu/en/economy/hung … 31556.html

A combination of emigration and declining birth rate.

Global population is increasing, but to a national government, declining national populations mean less tax revenue and declining work force.

Most, "normal" economies adjust for this via incoming immigration, which brings in adults able to immediately pay taxes and join the work force. But the current government's anti-immigrant position significantly limits this type of adjustment, making it structurally infective at stabilizing or growing the pollution.

So, it seems to me, the current government wants to "breed" a new tax base and work force instead (since their attempts to lure Hungarians back, who emigrated, basically failed).

Of course there are two problems with so relying on birth rate: There is (1) at least an 18 year delay before most will enter the work or tax force, and (2) the children may also emigrate out of Hungary resulting in zero or less than zero net gain.

I think the current government wouldn't mind traditional European bloodlines immigrating to Hungary. It has a real problem with Muslims however.  Given the history of Turkish/Ottoman invasions in Hungary, I can understand their hesitancy; not to mention the unwanted friction of cultural differences.

Certainly declining populations are a limiting factor in politics and economics, but not environmentally.  As mentioned, global population, especially in poor regions, continues increasing unabated.  Europe overall recently entered a declining population period, with Hungary one of the worst. (Thanks Kisallee for this website!)  Although several areas of Europe, like France, still show population increases.

http://www.portfolio.hu/en/economy/hung … 31556.html

PS - Kisallee and I referenced independently the same article -- I swear there was no collusion!

Vicces1 wrote:

I think the current government wouldn't mind traditional European bloodlines immigrating to Hungary.

But even if the government wanted to facilitate other intra-European immigration, the government needs to provide an overall environment that is attractive to such intra-European immigration. But almost nobody wants to move to a neighborhood, much less a country, where incomes are less, where the schools can not even pay their heating bills, where upward mobility is based a great deal on who you know (from grammar school), etc. etc. etc.

In short, there are significant structural issue in Hungary that many Europeans do not wish to "downgrade" to. And those will not change any time soon. And in the interim, Hungary can loose its competitive edge, especially in new technologies. But even those structural issues may seem minor, and Hungary may be seen as an "upgrade", to someone (even with those who today have an advanced degree) from a developing country.

And some details on the governments focus on birth rather than immigration:

http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/201 … on-policy/

And the government's position "Government does not really want migrant workers":

http://www.portfolio.hu/en/economy/cabi … 31549.html

I think fluffy mentioned the Chinese are buying up property to get into the Schengen zone at much less expensive prices that much of the rest of the EU.  And this was backed up in an article I posted in one of the threads -- possibly this one.
Let's not forget that immigration between Central European countries is a matter of factual history and not frowned upon at all.  Szarkozy, former Head of France and still a candidate for the next run, is a 1st generation Frenchman, with his family from Hungary.  No one blinks an eye.
Obviously there are economical reasons to think about before moving, but I'd still bet a kidney that most Hungarians would rather have a Polish plumber coming into the country than a Syrian dentist.

I love the public transport, we dont have any in my country, its so convenient

There's really lots to like about the mass transit.
Some history: 1st underground electrified metro on the continent and second oldest underground in the world after London's. 
Also a fairly easy to follow colored line system.

For tram lovers, there's probably no better place to start than here: http://hampage.hu/trams/e_index.html

For railways, Hungarian lore starts with the legendary Ganz Works.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganz_Works

Sorry, I find it funny that anyone would like the public transport in HU.
I guess it is just a mix up between fantasy and reality.
I too bought my first monthly Budapest public transport pass 5 years back, never renewed it.
All good until the wicked nasty ticket agents get in ones face.
There has to be a more humane way of dealing with tickets then to use those low IQ, lowlifes that work as ticket agents with their sneak attacks on people.
No mercy, they seem to target anyone who looks "foreign" for their verbal assaults.
The idea is great, the reality bites.
If you ever see a ragged, tired looking old women with a copper bob hairdo, it's me avoiding the public transport of Budapest and walking her dogs off.

Im really sorry your experience with hungarian public transport didnt turn out good, i have heard the agents are merciless. I never had a problem, luck i guess. Last two times we visited Budapest we each bought a month ticket which is cheap and convenient

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Sorry, I find it funny that anyone would like the public transport in HU.
I guess it is just a mix up between fantasy and reality.
.....
If you ever see a ragged, tired looking old women with a copper bob hairdo, it's me avoiding the public transport of Budapest and walking her dogs off.

You are ignoring the nerd factor.  A friend of mine is working through EVERY bus, tram metro and HEV route.  He likes trains and buses it seems.  He's also working on Vienna routes.

I'm the person with too many gadgets on a mountain bike on the cogwheel railway (sometimes).

I really cant believe it, I received a residence card   Really thought id be rejected, didnt have high hopes.

Jennifer_BudaVar1014 wrote:

I really cant believe it, I received a residence card   Really thought id be rejected, didnt have high hopes.

Congratulations!

Thank you

Vicces1 wrote:

Let's not forget that immigration between Central European countries is a matter of factual history and not frowned upon at all.  Szarkozy, former Head of France and still a candidate for the next run, is a 1st generation Frenchman, with his family from Hungary.  No one blinks an eye.
Obviously there are economical reasons to think about before moving, but I'd still bet a kidney that most Hungarians would rather have a Polish plumber coming into the country than a Syrian dentist.

Three points:

1) Movement to France is not immigration between Central European countries. So this example does not prove your point. 

2) I did not "frown" upon immigration within Central Europe. But the fact is, it is not happening today. What happened "historically" is thus not relevant. Human migration dynamics today is the reality one must consider when planning a long term, sustainable national economic policy. And the fact, today, is there is rather net emigration out of central Europe (Portfolio.hu just proved my point this week):

http://www.portfolio.hu/en/economy/mass … 31605.html

So, there are few, if any, Polish plumbers moving to Hungary. Simply because they can make more money in more western countries (and maybe that is why the Szarkozy family moved to France, in "Western Europe"  ). It is an economic issue. Pure and simple. And, IMHO, being stubborn about such realities, and including stumbling blocks, like very limited geographical "preferences", is.... well..... a problem that will cause more problems down the road (see above article, shows clearly Hungarian population is in decline and the effects on its long term economic outlook if not corrected). I am not saying that a country does not have the rights to vet and approve who enters and works in their country -- they do -- but the implied rhetorical reasons for denial of large sections of humanity based on their original geographical origins are getting overly political and disturbingly retrograde.

3) Anyone, with enough money, can get a Hungarian residency permit via the investor residency program. So the kind of "people" that "most Hungarians**" may want here, really does not matter anyway. In reality, the government sold out long ago on that topic, but just pretend they didn't. After all a Syrian dentist is more likely to be able to afford the investor residency permit than a plumber from any country.


** There was a time when some people would have claimed that "Most Americans" would rather have a Polish plumber coming into the neighborhood than an African American dentist. That is a slippery slope.

klsallee wrote:

......

So, there are few, if any, Polish plumbers moving to Hungary. Simply because they can make more money in more western countries (and maybe that is why the Szarkozy family moved to France, in "Western Europe"  ). ...... After all a Syrian dentist is more likely to be able to afford the investor residency permit than a plumber from any country. ....Polish plumber coming into the neighborhood than an African American dentist. That is a slippery slope.

Some wide ranging points there. 

I don't know about Szarkozy exactly but there are the 1956 generation who escaped West. Szarkozy is in the right age to be offspring of the 1956 escapees.  In other words, a refugee.

I worked in Syria in a higher education project a couple of years before the war started.  While I did not come across any dentists, I did meet a few Ph.Ds/lecturers in scientific disciplines. All of them were educated abroad to Ph.D level abroad, mainly in the US or UK. They were all  sponsored by the state while abroad.  They certainly were not adherents to the Assad regime but definitely products of the secularist regime.   Around the region, Syria and Jordan were considered very good at education and so was Turkey. I've met several non-Turkish people educated in Turkey and they all seemed to know their stuff.  In Bangladesh, all the medics seem to have been educated in the UK. 

So, Syrian dentist, yes, quite good enough, especially if educated abroad.  Not so clear cut as nationality alone.  In the UK, one of our most well known heart surgeons is Egyptian.

BTW, Syria is a very interesting country.  When I saw what IS did to Palmyra etc., I was quite upset.  2000 years of history gone in second, and for what? I'm no fan of Assad, but definitely a fan of secularism.  Assad is no saint but it was very stable and safe there even if there was an atmosphere of oppression. Even Mrs Fluffy and a Fluffyette were there too with me.

Syrian people could travel, people had money and Syria was very popular with other Arab nations as a holiday location  (i.e. it was more liberal than say, Saudi).   Syria was (and I hope still will be) a very interesting country to visit - when it's all over.

I worked in Las Vegas as a casino games dealer, believe me, as an "older women" of age 43 at the time I got hired because of my personality and friendly smile and decent ( if I say so myself) looks.
So many ultra talented "foreigners" worked with me from every country on the planet. Of course most were a good 15 years my jr.( Good looks, a good personality and and nice smile and easy way will get you almost anywhere at least in my case) I worked with former doctors , engineers, teachers, any high level educated field you can think of. I was blown away most times knowing that a PHD in China was spinning the ball at Roulette or flinging cards on a high limit blackjack table.
My pit boss was a funny , funny nice man from Iran who could make anyone laugh, he had been a business owner in his country before he left.Many intelligent middle eastern people worked with me daily. Funny how most changed their first names to "Joe" or "Bill" just to make uneducated  customers feel ok.
Also worked with a beautiful Muslim women from Korsovo, no headscarf on her , what a smart mouth on her too, funny smart and hiding all the pain of seeing her friends shot and raped along with her at age 17. She showed her scars to me once. She was dating our young pit boss who was from Hungary.
Worked with women from Turkey, China and Russia, all had a story to tell and every single one of them was over qualified for their jobs in a casino.
The Polish Plumber may actually be a PHD for all one knows.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

...
The Polish Plumber may actually be a PHD for all one knows.

I just came back from an impoverished Asian nation and my taxi driver to the airport, pointed over to the very large university grounds we passed and said, in excellent English, that's where I obtained my degree in Economics.  QED.