UK votes on June 23 to stay in the EU.

I just read this on yahoo news.
The whole world seems to be getting more isolated and paranoid, the immigrants have stirred things up allot.
I think there may be other issues involved in the EU problems but the immigrants have been the last straw for many countries.
I am an American as you are we are lucky to have HU spouses.
I suppose those from the UK that are married to HU citizens will not be having to worry any.
Those not married to a HU citizen probably can still visit HU for 90 days with 180 days between?
This issue with countries and not trusting the world gov. much is one major reason even though my husband is a HU citizen I never put all my hopes into Hungary.
I always told my husband if I actually brought over my beloved dogs ashes to HU that would mean I was there forever.
In other words, we never felt at home 100% in HUngary because of their old records of changes the rules without allot of warning.
I admire the UK for standing up for it's citizens, I hope if they do leave the EU that Hungary and other EU countries  will consider what is fare to those who have bought property  in other countries, at least give them allot of time to sort things out.
If they do toss UK citizen out of HU then it would be fare for the UK to toss out HU citizens as well.

klsallee wrote:

For UK citizens in Hungary, if the UK votes to exit the EU what are your contingency plans?

If the UK exists the EU, then you are no longer EU citizens. You may not be entitled to EU residency rights in Hungary. And this may including such things as property rights, living in Hungary, and other issues. (We have no idea how the HU government might "respond" to a Britexit; maybe badly.....).

This is, this is a "what if", worst case, scenario question. So please no comments about "it won't happen", or "things will work out with bilateral agreements". 

Bilateral agreements not to be discussed.  Aw, come on, there are always going to be transitional arrangements.  It's not a cut off all of a sudden,  It's more a controlled crash..  Don't forget EFTA countries have the same rights as EU citizens.  It will take years of negotiations to bring it to a conclusion and it's not just Hungary - there are 2 million EU citizens in the UK and 2 million UK citizens in Europe.  Moreover there are close to a 1 million UK citizens in Spain and places like Gibraltar need their say.  I hope that EU reform would follow a no vote.

But there's another dynamic at play too and that's Orban Viki.  He wants the EU to be reigned with regard its powers.  And other countries may want to leave too. That's sort of more interesting than just the UK.  Basically people do not like the EU at all. It seems to legislate in petty ways, interfere and use up huge amounts of money while apparently lavishing cash on eurocrats in Brussels.   If the UK votes out, it will mean a major reform which in of itself would be worthwhile.

Unfortunately there seems to be no poll function here.  Would be interesting to see the results.

In the event of Brexit, I assume that we will lose our health rights and our free transport at the very least.
If there is a Brexit, then the 'would be Donald T***' elements will surely be in the political ascendancy in the UK, and I fear for the consequences of 'tit for tat' international politics.
It is surely a case for all making sure that we have our UK votes organised.

I  think many countries in the EU need low paid workers from less affluent EU countries to be able to exploit them.
The rich in all countries need workers to do their dirty work.
In the US only the wealthy need illegals to do their dirty work, most working class Americans don't hire nannies, cooks, housekeepers or have professional lawn services.They do those jobs themselves.
The rich live in gated communities and have no clue how having so many people who are willing to work for nothing effects the country.
Rich get richer by exploiting people and the middle class becomes working class and working class becomes poor.
I think only the votes from corp. super rich etc. actually count in politics.
My friend at the moment in Nevada is at the cacaus  for the Dem. party. She is putting all her faith in these jerks. Sad really because I think in the long run her vote does not count no matter how many times they try to tell people get out there and vote.
They already know what direction they want to take the country in and will make sure it goes their way, no faith at all in any gov.
Time for a worldwide change but until people are ready to share the planet and all resources equally it is just a fantasy.
Sorry for the rant, an old school Hippie and my dreams of a heaven on earth.

The "Britex" is a major Expat issue, so a valid topic (IMHO), but it would be nice if we can keep political opinions out, sticking to expat related problems.

The thread is likely to disappear if politics gets in.

Fred wrote:

The "Britex" is a major Expat issue, so a valid topic (IMHO), but it would be nice if we can keep political opinions out, sticking to expat related problems.

The thread is likely to disappear if politics gets in.

I think it's a totally fair topic myself.   Some contributors are Hungarians in the UK. It'll affect them too.

This is massive in many ways and it will very likely create problems for expats in Euro member countries.
It will likely mean a need for visas, work permits and a mass of other paperwork where there is none at the moment.
Property ownership could also be an issue in some countries.
Non EU expats could also see changes if the Euro political map changes, some getting an easier ride than they do at the moment.

davidpearce wrote:

In the event of Brexit, I assume that we will lose our health rights and our free transport at the very least.
If there is a Brexit, then the 'would be Donald Trump' elements will surely be in the political ascendancy in the UK, and I fear for the consequences of 'tit for tat' international politics.
It is surely a case for all making sure that we have our UK votes organised.

I don't think that's really the British way to have extremists involved. Even Farage is not really an extremist in the same way as Trump and a lot of people like him.   I expect the rest of the EU would want to stick the boot in.

I am becoming rather intrigued by Cameron's position.  Boris is so popular he could actually end up as PM if he comes out for leaving the EU.  Cameron's position will be utterly untenable if the referendum  comes out as "Yay to Brexit".  Boris is in a rather odd position too as he would need to nail his colours to the mast. Could be the end of his career.

As a local thing, I wonder what Orban will be thinking about all this. I think the UK can easily make it outside of the EU but Hungary would be even more marginalised.  As far as I know, Orban is no fan of the EU but wants their cash. 

Incidentally I do not like the question on the referendum.  There's no option/tick box for major reform.  I am also rather unhappy that UK expats living in the EU cannot apparently vote and one has  to be resident in the UK.  That's really very unfair for people at two (or more) ends of a connection between two EU countries - I mean those who are dual nationals, married to non-UK citizens, or live in 3rd countries (i.e. EU nationals  married to UK citizens neither of which live in their own countries).   

At the end of the day I suppose the UK will end up in an EFTA style arrangement.  It could be even more interesting. UK could join NAFTA!

Britain leaving the EU would likely bring changes for expats on many levels.

Expats within the euro area are probably going to experience problems, but any change in the relationship could mean an easier ride for potential expats from commonwealth countries.
Moving away from Europe might well mean a return to closer ties with commonwealth countries, including people moving to the UK for work along with closer financial ties and business deals.

We should keep an eye on this important topic as conditions for many expats and potential expats are going to change if there is a Britex.

Fred wrote:

Britain leaving the EU would likely bring changes for expats on many levels....
Moving away from Europe might well mean a return to closer ties with commonwealth countries, including people moving to the UK for work along with closer financial ties and business deals.

I don't see how Commonwealth countries would realistically become closer. 

The UK screwed up its relations with Australia and New Zealand in the 1970s.  Up until the 1970s or so, ANZ citizens were all equally British and there was no difference between them and us. ANZ voted to issue its own passports and forced people to choose nationality. Obviously there remain considerable economic ties.

Canada has always been relatively distant as it's independence goes back to the 1800s and the British North America Act.  Canada is much more aligned to the USA these days and doesn't need the UK to be its best friend.

It would have been nice to see an open Commonwealth trading block but any notion of going back to the Empire days are long gone.   On the other hand, I quite like the idea of easier border controls between the Commonwealth countries and the UK.  Fat chance of that happening.

Fred wrote:

....Britex.

BrEXIT.

The commonwealth isn't dead yet, and trade with other non EU countries is on the rise.
The business relationship with China is very likely to enjoy good times if British cash moves away from Europe.

Only UK residents are allowed to vote in the referendum. Whatever the outcome there will be a transition period and then people will stay or move in accordance with social and economic considerations.
Like most people I am just waiting to see what unfolds.

anns wrote:

Only UK residents are allowed to vote in the referendum...

I just looked on the Hungarian Expat FB forum and that led me to HMG's web site on voting.  If one left within the last 15 years then it is possible to register to vote. See here: Voting when abroad

It is in our interests to circulate this https://www.gov.uk/voting-when-abroad link amongst the expat community in all EC countries, to maximise the vote. There is of course a caution on the proxy vote that it has to be done at the voting station for the address at which you are registered, so proxies have to be local.

davidpearce wrote:

It is in our interests to circulate this https://www.gov.uk/voting-when-abroad link amongst the expat community in all EC countries, to maximise the vote. There is of course a caution on the proxy vote that it has to be done at the voting station for the address at which you are registered, so proxies have to be local.

With the pathetically low turnouts in the general elections, I wonder how many will bother, even if they are invested somehow in the EU.

I'm sure that you would enjoy being wrong. I sadly share your cynicism about voter turnout in the UK and the imperfections in our democracy generally BUT seeds of hope. The last 2 general elections have had higher turnout. As much as I despise Farage and all that he stands for, I have to acknowledge that the love or hate Farage factor is increasing voter engagement.

fluffy2560 wrote:

With the pathetically low turnouts in the general elections, I wonder how many will bother, even if they are invested somehow in the EU.

I believe pathetic turnouts are the result of pathetic politicians



I suppose, if you really wanted to work out what went wrong, you'd have to look at political events in 1992 and 1997, these dates being when it all went to pot.

You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

Unpopular politicians aside, the "Britex" (I like making up words, live with it) is likely to bring voters out as there are so many high running feelings on various aspects of the EU, mostly unpopular with the unwashed masses.
Before I gave up drinking as a ruddy silly idea, the pubs were full of people who very vocally hated the EU, but they also hated anything they couldn't do with as a dog would, so their opinions are less than likely to be representative of anyone with a brain.
Sadly, they get a vote so their opinions count.
Of course, most of the pubs have closed down, so they may have little platform for their odd ideas ... oh rats, the internet arrived.

Fred wrote:

I believe pathetic turnouts are the result of pathetic politicians.....Of course, most of the pubs have closed down, so they may have little platform for their odd ideas ... oh rats, the internet arrived.

Wouldn't disagree with you there about pathetic politicians.

Boris is mega popular for his buffoon like behaviour, his apparent eccentricity rather than his politics. People will vote for him just because he's a character and to stick two fingers up to Cameron.  With Boris on board with the No camp there's a seriously chance of the BrExit becoming a reality. 

Do you remember how Blair tried to shoehorn Frank Dobson in as London Mayor?  Ken Livingstone got elected because people just liked him rather than on his politics.

Anyway if it happens I doubt we'd immediately lose our rights in HU. We'd get whopping transitional period.  I suspect ~5 to 10 years would be about right.  I don't how many British people live in HU but seem to remember a number around 1500 known to the Embassy. 

As I am married to a HU citizen, and have HU kids, I can always learn Hungarian, pass the language exam and claim HU citizenship. If I wait a few years I can get exempted on age grounds from passing the constitutional knowledge exam. 

Or just go in and out every 90 days (I probably do that anyway).

BTW, the pubs are all now normalised on places to eat as well as drink.  In my mind, it's much better than the traditional drinks only places. More family oriented.

davidpearce wrote:

....As much as I despise Farage and all that he stands for, I have to acknowledge that the love or hate Farage factor is increasing voter engagement.

Farage failed to get elected for the UK parliament.  So while the electorate like generally his stance on Europe, they don't really care for him on local matters. 

He's another eccentric bloke who would probably get elected  anywhere if he wasn't quite so abrasive.

I listen to him on LBC sometimes and by the sounds of him, he's a very smart fella and totally on top of his brief.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Bilateral agreements not to be discussed.  Aw, come on, there are always going to be transitional arrangements.

My party, my rules. 

But seriously, an EU exit should not affect other overlapping agreements, such as EEA membership. Work from that perspective:

klsallee wrote:

...My party, my rules. 

Fred the Moderator might have something to say on that!

klsallee wrote:

.....But seriously, an EU exit should not affect other overlapping agreements, such as EEA membership.

I had to look up GUAM. Apparently it's Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, and Moldova. 

At first I thought Moldova was in an unlikely pact with an American island in the Pacific which would definitely have added more spice to the discussions. 

I quite like that idea. So while I'm here I'm on a roll....

UK in free trade association with say, Vanuatu or Hungary in association with St. Pierre et Miquelon.  Call it "Adopt an island year".  Nauru in association with Swaziland. Pitcairn in association with Nepal. St Helena and Ivory Coast. 

The weirder the better!

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

...My party, my rules. 

Fred the Moderator might have something to say on that!

I'm not a moderator, just some dude.

The EU exit/Britex/brexit  (the latter sounding like a chocolate biscuit. a trip to the toilet or running away after a wild one night stand) will have an impact on many things, and a lot to do with expat life.
I see as likely a backlash if Britain does vote out, and that's likely to mean tough times for Brits in European countries.
Equally, a lot of expats in the UK are going to have problems as tit for tat rules are just as possible.
Most of this is pure speculation at the moment, and we have to remember the 'fat sacks of cash' element.
That basically means a lot of money (Read - political influence) is still flowing both ways, so that could well mean a softening of the blow for us peasants.

Boris has nailed his colours to the mast, and he's going for a BritEx (My word - love it or use something else)

Fred wrote:

I'm not a moderator, just some dude.

I see.  So these were just opinions then and you have no nuclear button to block posts? 

Fred wrote:

Boris has nailed his colours to the mast, and he's going for a BritEx (My word - love it or use something else)

Boris has written an article in the Telegraph:

Boris wants out article in The Torygraph

There's a poll further down the page which asks if Boris runs the BrExit campaign would you vote for out.  At the time I pressed the button, 74% of those voting would go for the Boris camp (about 11000 votes).  Might be biased politically but hard to ignore those numbers even if one accounts for a Tory leaning bias.

I don't believe  I've heard anything from Corbyn yet.  That'll be an interesting development. I reckon he'll come down on "Stay In".

The Telegraph isn't a paper I read much, but I understand it has moderate right leanings, so that's significant to the Tory camp.

I don't believe the press aimed at anyone with a brain will be the deciding factor as far as publishers' influence goes, more likely it'll be the comics such as The Sun, and that notable gutter press rag seems to think the British PM could be suffering from a little terminological inexactitude.
I'm unsure what draws me to that conclusion, but this Sun photo seems to make such a suggestion.

Perhaps this could supply likely answers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop … rexit.html

Fred wrote:

Perhaps this could supply likely answers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop … rexit.html

Oy vay, this means I don't have to queue up at the fence to get back in! Woo-Hoo!!

"If the UK exists the EU, then you are no longer EU citizens."

NO ONE can deprive you of EU citizen rights. Once a EU citizen, you cannot by law be deprived of this citizenship. Look at your passports. You will see that we are all EU citizens.

The UK government has not thought through this constitutional law issue.

Yes it is true that they have not thought things through but also passports can be cancelled because legislation will be changed.
I expect the UK will stay in.  Most voters have conservative ideas ( small c) and fear the unknown. Those that rant on the most against government backed policies often don't vote on the day.

anns wrote:

....Those that rant on the most against government backed policies often don't vote on the day.

If one has been out more than 15 years, one cannot vote anyway.   

I think that in itself is a terrible thing.  I think everyone who is a British citizen should be entitled to vote.

Moreover, all that faffing around with different categories of citizenship like BNO is an abuse of people's rights.  Some people it seems are only just a little bit British.

Are there different classes of citizenship in the UK?
As an American I know nothing about UK laws etc.
I know in the US once they swear you in as a Naturalized US citizen you have 100% equal rights as a born in the USA citizen does, all except for running for Pres. that is another issue since some people don't even believe the current pres was born in the USA.
One can leave the US for ever and still have the right to vote if they so chose to.
One thing I know for sure is if anyone is making money from EU policies then the UK will stay in the EU.
In Hungary the citizens have experienced the change of systems many times over, some several times in their lifetime.
My neighbor and in-laws lived through a free Hungary then a communist Hungary and then through whatever is going on now.
Lost everything, businesses were taken away from them, property taken, money devalued and they still kept on going.No fear.
A huge change to their lifestyles many times over, my MIL used to own her own dairy shop right there on Vaci Utca in a nice section on the street. She was a go getter at age 22 and worked hard to build her own business. After the changes post war, she was given the honor of running the dairy shop for the gov. She of course walked away from that. Things fall into place  in the long run, life is always about change.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Are there different classes of citizenship in the UK?

Yes, there are.  These are British Citizen, British Subject and British National (Overseas). It's outrageous.

Only British citizens are allowed to live in the UK.  Others are not allowed. However, it's arbitary and political. Falklands Island folks are allowed to live in the UK, but BNO (generally from Hong Kong) are not.    It's a total anachronism and needs to be fixed asap.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Are there different classes of citizenship in the UK?

No, but many from the old colonies have been granted a semi citizenship that allows some rights, but not all.
People in colonies that are still British are commonly granted greater rights than those in ex colonies.
Full citizens, by whatever path, all have the same rights.

It's explained here

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nat … ies-citize

Does seem a bit horrible for people left with a semi-citizenship.
The old "class" system maybe is at the root of this?
I know my husband was naturalized as a US citizen back in 1978.
He just couldn't believe he was treated like everyone else, he took learning about the US gov. beforehand as a requirement before his swearing in very seriously.I bet naturalized citizens know more about their new country then those of us born into it.
I know he looked as his new US citizenship paperwork for days just couldn't believe he finally got it.
My mom had a huge party in his honor, sort of a sweet memory.
She said he was no longer a "foreigner" her salt of the earth way of saying she was happy for him.
I really do not know what to say about the UK system, guess it isn't really my business just wondered what the deal was.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Does seem a bit horrible for people left with a semi-citizenship.
The old "class" system maybe is at the root of this?
.

It's a throwback to the old colonial days, nothing to do with a class system.

The people concerned are NOT British, but citizens of various countries Britain was in control of, or still is in control of. I seem to recall Falklands islands residents were granted full British citizenship at the time of the war there, but I'd have to check that.
There were losses/changes in some rights for overseas citizens as a result of two new laws in about 1960 and 1980, but I'd also have to check that.
Basically, if you're a British citizen, you have the same rights as all other British citizens as far as voting, residency and normal life is concerned.
The only real exceptions are people in positions of responsibility or some granted/inherited titles of various types, those commonly having more rights including driving sheep over tower bridge.
Others have restricted rights, such as MPs who are not allowed to wear armour in the houses of parliament, clearly an injustice that must be rectified immediately.
Luckily for the gentlemen of the UK, we still have the right to urinate on the left hand rear wheel of our cars, bur our right hand must be touching the vehicle whilst doing so.

Fred wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Are there different classes of citizenship in the UK?

No, but many from the old colonies have been granted a semi citizenship that allows some rights, but not all.

I'd call that different classes of citizenship.

Fred wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Does seem a bit horrible for people left with a semi-citizenship.
The old "class" system maybe is at the root of this?
.

It's a throwback to the old colonial days, nothing to do with a class system.

The people concerned are NOT British, but citizens of various countries Britain was in control of, or still is in control of. I seem to recall Falklands islands residents were granted full British citizenship at the time of the war there, but I'd have to check that.

Actually there was no difference between UK citizens in the UK and those in the colonies way back then.  Everyone was absolutely equally British.  Thatcher brought in BNO because of the handback of HK to China and there was a fear that millions would flee to the UK.  She gave full British citizenship to just about everyone in the colonial government. If I remember correctly, it was 50,000 people  plus their dependents - something like 200,000 at the time the HK colonial government was wrapped up.   

Even until the early 1970s, all the folks in Australian and NZ were totally British too.  It was only when Aus and NZ decided to issue their own passports did the situation change.  People were asked to choose which they were.  Canada was different.

Falkland Islanders were granted full citizenship in order to politically secure their rights.  It was after the war there.  Other islanders also have full citizenship nowadays, i.e. Monserrat, St Helena etc but the situation with BNO and British Subjects has not been really resolved and the anachronism put to bed.  British Subjects are fading away due to age but BNO represents quite a substantial number of people.

I have some personal knowledge of these issues.

The UK is massively overcrowded. This I'd why I prefer to be elsewhere. Huge numbers of people have the right to live there and to vote.
You can't compare the UK to the US in any respect .  56 million and rising.
There is still a lot of countryside owned by the elite mainly, but all the cities, towns, urban areas and metropolitan area are manic.
Only the expense of the place discourages people from wanting to live there.

anns wrote:

The UK is massively overcrowded. This I'd why I prefer to be elsewhere. Huge numbers of people have the right to live there and to vote.
You can't compare the UK to the US in any respect .  56 million and rising.
There is still a lot of countryside owned by the elite mainly, but all the cities, towns, urban areas and metropolitan area are manic.
Only the expense of the place discourages people from wanting to live there.

You might be surprised to know it's about 64M people.   When I was a kid (a long time ago) it was about 56 million.   It's an incredible increase.

Anyway, I also lived in The Netherlands and that's really far more squashed than the UK.  There's nowhere there which one can say is empty.  You're never more than a couple of miles from anyone.    But as you say UK seems rather squashed especially the South East.   Government needs to encourage people to move away from there.  Always jammed up.

An interesting thing in NL is that the area bounded by Utrecht, Rotterdam, The Hague and Amsterdam is essentially one giant urban area which is almost continuous.   They even have a name for it  which is "Randstad".  Eventually all the gaps will be filled in.